To get back on the topic of CES' doctrines or practices.....
I here and now state, from personal experience, that whatever influence was placed upon JAL and E was not new to CES' doctrines and practices.
In the last 19? years, it has been placed on JAL and on others in different situations over and over again and this includes up to this very month.
It has simply gotten more brazen over time and, as someone said, personal prophecy has allowed it to happen faster.
I must leave the Cafe at this present time. I will be back tonight...and I will give clear examples.....but when I do, I request that no one diverts the point from CES' public doctrines and practices into something personal.
The 'church' is not ces or whatever name you want to give it.
The church is within.
And it is within an individual to work out problems.
Be it marriage or whatever.
If more then one is involved, the person must be honest.
Admit his faults and weaknesses to God the other person and,
if a third party, Not a 'church' was to be involved by these two asking their help.
The most simple thing to do is to help these two help themselves.
They are not to make a ruling in such a matter as marriage.
It's outside of their, the third person's responsibility.
Though the two have made it the other's business.
That does NOT mean that that person has the right to say what to do.
Offering alternates and courses of action to take to resolve the problem.
That is the only way it will work in a GODLY manner.
Otherwise it is self seeking, gratifying of the flesh under the pretense of
Godly direction.
The direction for one to take is in that person.
NO ONE ELSE.
There is not an easy way out of hard situations.
These things are to be handled in a Godly manner.
If someone is involved in helping my marriage, it is still me and my wife to discover and find the answers within ourselves and not from within another person.
Even if divorce is a suggestion from this third party, it must be whole heartedly from the heart of the two that are married.
Clearly the scriptures declare that if one is married to not seek a divorce and another wife. Unless the unbelieving depart.
And that's the tricky part what is being believed, God or what someone else is saying God says.
If one goes by what someone else says God says then it is plain to see that it was not their decision but someone elses'.
Thanks for bringing that up Raf,
Divorce should always be the last resort.
Leaving CES would have probably solved a lot of problems while they were married.
In fact I suspect these [edited by modcat5] stem from what ces and the rest of the group was doing to them.
Remaining ignorant of the causes, and still the problems are not solved.
Divorced or not.
Running from your problems is never the answer.
They always follow you whereever you go.
Taking an honest and thorough look at themselves would help.
Righting wrongs.
Facing the challenges that will come no matter what situation one is in.
I am not now, nor have I ever been affiliated with CES. However, I am human and curious, especially given who the players are in this particular drama.
I couldn't read all of the letter though. I brought back too many painful memories and emotions - the craziness of it all. It is all too familiar, too similar to my own experience with TWI (minus the "prophesies" cause we had "revelation" instead :blink:)
My heart breaks for John and Elizabeth - I don't care who is right and who is wrong or who did what to whom. It is madness - the doctrine, the power struggles, all of it. How sad for them and how horrendously wrong for other people to have interjected themselves into their marriage and couched it in the guise of love and godliness.
I do understand airing it. I understand her desire to have her side heard. I understand the desire to protect others, to warn them. I wish I had known what I was getting into before I joined TWI. But mostly, I just feel very very sad to see another marriage in ruins because of bad doctrine, meddling and a thirst for for power and control.
My goal in this forum is to expose the secrecy and darkness that has infiltrated CES. I don't mind naming leaders, they are public figures.
I do have a problem with getting into the intimate details of a marriage from a 3rd party. I'm not a big JAL fan, by any means, he's done some things back in the TWI days that I will never forget. But I would much rather that one of the two parties share that if they want.
I've removed a block of posts and will review them in a few hours. Sorry if this takes away from the flow of the discussion.
I know that this is not a pleasant discussion for anyone. I would like to thank all the GSers and non GSers giving some sensible advice to those that have been victimized. The scenarios have changed somewhat but the bottom line is people getting bilked.
i didn't read every word of her letter, but i think it was completely appropriate. it spells out the problems of STFI--and of their top brASS--in a way i'd like every member (or whatever they call 'em) to read. maybe it would wake a few of them up. and they most definitely need waking.
though i'm sure that most of them will insist that she's to blame. and continue to hang around, give their time and love and money, until something even MORE grevious happens. a lawsuit, maybe.
i didn't read every word of her letter, but i think it was completely appropriate. it spells out the problems of STFI--and of their top brASS--in a way i'd like every member (or whatever they call 'em) to read. maybe it would wake a few of them up. and they most definitely need waking.
though i'm sure that most of them will insist that she's to blame. and continue to hang around, give their time and love and money, until something even MORE grevious happens. a lawsuit, maybe.
have i mentioned i think they're all NUTS?
Saying they're "nuts" maybe easy from where you sit, but the same could be said from anyone who spent time in TWI. Someone from the "outside" might not understand how we could consider someone like VPW a "father in the Word". Heck, just admitting you SIT could seem more crazy than this dream stuff.
... by the way, try a Google on "dream interpretation in the Bible" and you get a ton of other ministies who teach this stuff...
Some have questioned the relavancy of this thread on this forum. I see it as being especially relavent considering that many former twi-ers are a part of CES and CES has somewhat fashioned its ministry after TWI. It's also a ministry that many former twi'ers will possibly look to as a place to go when they leave and are looking for a group who will understand them. God knows, I did - but found it wasn't my cuppa tea. My husband had fellowship with them for a few years but distanced himself shortly after we met and I started questioning the "personal prophsey" thing - it seems like a message from God in a Happy Meal box, you know - just all done up special for you with a toy. I valued the worship manifestations too much to buy it.
Additionally, where else will people go to hear this about CES? I know of no other board like this and this can put the info out there in the mainstream.
Like I've said - CES could be a good thing. After this, they'd be smart to ditch the whole thing and start over with a new cast.
Every one is properly qualified to give themselves to God.
And make Godly choices.
No one is properly qualified to choose for someone else.
Someoneelse that has gone so far to the point of not being capable of making decisions. There are such people. People are to help them get back to where they can decide and make choices.
Some times these people never recover from insanity.
I have to say that the dream stuff you posted that was presented to elizabeth does seem nuts (and most certainly EVIL). I'm guessing that your point was exactly that.
I don't thinik the problems is "dreams "per se. God clearly says that He can talk through dreams and visions. He did with Abraham, Joseph, Daniel, Ezekial, Job, Joseph (Mary's husband), and even Paul (the man from Macedonia). Were they all nuts? I think not. The problem is not dreams, but that they claim that those demonic images are from God. Of primary importantance in any dream is determining the source.(God, your own soul,, or Satan).
I have been invovled with CES/STF since 2000 and I think the problem they are experiencing now is the fact that the Graeser's and these "prophets" are being held to account. How else do you explain the fact that four faithful employees have either resigned or been terminated in the past five weeks (there are only two full time employees now left besides Mark and John Schoenheit). I have talked to those fired and they were confronting Mark and fighting for change, that's why they are gone. John Lynn hasn't been on the Board or payroll for at least two years.
John Lynn has recently wieighed in on this and taken the Graeser's on too. I know there are some good people on the Board who have been fighting Mark tooth and nail. Let's pray for good to come from this. I won't condemn an entire organizatioin because a few are bad.
Don't get me wrong, that stuff with Elizabeht was wrong and the responsible parties need to repent, account and make amends.
And by the way, CES has no fellowships. They allow fellowships to post their informatiion on their websites but they exert no authority or control over any fellowships, and they have never asked anyone to sign any type of agreement (Code of Conduct or otherwise).
And by the way, CES has no fellowships. They allow fellowships to post their informatiion on their websites but they exert no authority or control over any fellowships, and they have never asked anyone to sign any type of agreement (Code of Conduct or otherwise).
TWI only had four members. Then six. Then whatever.
None of us (AC Grads, Corps Grads, Piffle Grads, College Prog Grads) except the Board of Directors/Board of Trustees/whatever were members of TWI.
Good point, However, I remember in The W.y that they exercised a lot of control and authority over people. My perspective is there is a big difference between the two organizations.
I dunno Joe, it sounds to me like CES exercises a good deal of control in people's lives too. They may cloak it differently, but from what I've read of Elizabeth's letter, its the same ...., different day to me. Maybe they haven't tried to exercise that much control over the lives of the "little people" yet, but it seems like that would be the direction they are heading in.
Someone asked about deliverance sessions that Elizabeth mentions in her letter. I remember being at a conference, can't remember when, but Dan was there and people were scheduling deliverance sessions with him. He had a questionaire that was to be filled out and then, I have heard, during the session, he would go down the list, interpreting your responses as indicative of demonic influence or not, then cast something out if he thought something was there. Problem was that some of the questions were very personal. Like have you had any sexual dreams, etc.
If you did fill out this questionaire, they have a lot of spiritual, if not literal, blackmail power over you. Perhaps it could just be a look that meant, "Agree with me, or I know exactly what to say to innocently let the cat out of the bag."
That is what momentus was all about. Poke and prod until you find a weakness and then push until you make a breakthrough. In other words, the object of the torture sees it your way and submits. Once you make that a habit, they own your soul. Guess who they are working for?
You have to understand that the people working this evil don't realize it is evil. They really think they are doing a great service. The proof is in the fruit.
Rich,
What's the good? :unsure: You have me curious.
More of the right people are being networked together. Some healing is taking place. Ignorance is being brushed away and fog dispelled. I see glimmers of repentance. Sorry I can't be more specific at this time. But the pipeline is flowing.
The Ents are stirring and I think when they see the other Ents and trees that have been hacked to pieces, well who knows what might happen. Frodo and Samwise are approaching Mount Doom with the ring. The fellowship of the ring continues. One really small person can make a difference.
Depends on what a person thinks a prophet is a suppose.
psssst....it ain't what we were taught in twi
And as for those who think we at gsc should get a life, as i heard somewhere on this thread. Thank you i am perhaps you should quit telling me what to do in such vague repulsive venom, and check out what really is happening with a lot of people here at gsc.
It's not their lives, but a small portion of it. Look a little deeper then your shallow empty words.
People will live and have died here at gsc.
God knows the contribution to each individual this place has brought.
No allegiance is required nor membership.
Those who run this forum do it from their hearts,
expecting nothing in return.
God is not unrighteous to forget their labor of love.
No tapes, no books, no weekly newsletter.
But real life experiences and documentation by the hundreds,
i'm sorry i haven't kept up with this thread. and i couldn't bear to read the elizabeth prophecies. i was just wondering..... how is she doing ? if anyone knows her, please give her my best. i know that sounds weird but i feel terrible for her.....
The Ents are stirring and I think when they see the other Ents and trees that have been hacked to pieces, well who knows what might happen. Frodo and Samwise are approaching Mount Doom with the ring. The fellowship of the ring continues. One really small person can make a difference.
"If you want him, come and claim him!"
sorry, just the very mention of LOTR and I let the middle earth in me come out!
I am praying for all these folks to get it together.
You all know that TWI is just salivating for CES to come crashing down don't you?
That way they can brag about how ''cop-outs fail, yada yada".
Makes me ill thinking about it.
Yet, so does what this ''personal prophesy crappola is doing to hurt folks. Shame.
I am not involved with any offshoots at all, but one of the things that helped my escape from TWI was JL's letter and John S paper on Adultery. Hopefully, this thread can shake their memories a bit...........
Start making Jesus Lord people, and stop Lording over God's heritage!!!
David, earlier in the thread you said that this cleared up some questions that you had. I'm curious as to whether that means there were 'red flags' with your experience with the group. (Like Tom, I'm not trying to make it personal at all, just curious given my propensity for ignoring those red flags in the past.)
Hey there Belle. Didn't mean to ignore this question.
Looking through the beginnings of this thread, I ran across it again,
and since I didn't answer then, here's the perspective.
(Would that be the *Present Truth*?)
Can't say that anything was a *red flag* for me.
But things were happening that made me curious.
(Please don't ask for *dates or a timeline* -- I'll get it wrong if I try!)
Like I said in an earlier post, given my *involvement* with CES,
to me they were predominantly a source of info for Christians with questions.
Or atheists with questions, or ANYONE with questions, and I liked that.
The early teachings were (imo) great. Stuff you could sink your teeth into.
Things that made you think, pull out the bible, and do some extra looking on your own.
Somewhere along the line -- the teachings became more vague.
Then they became completely blah-zayy, with reports of how a teen camp went, or something.
While I'm glad the teens had a good time at *camp*,
I don't want to hear about it on the tape that used to have teaching on it instead.
Occassionally something good from John Schoenheit will be offered,
but those are getting few and far between.
A lot of the tapes done by Mark G are philosophical ramblings that lose me quickly.
As another poster here once said to me in the chat room --
"Mark G belongs in a college classroom, where he can put the students to sleep".
(Or something very close to that effect).
Also -- their move from being an info - based org (again my perspective),
to that of being a full blown church was puzzling. My question was Why?
The answer to that question was in a Sower magazine (and on a monthly tape),
that they (CES) felt that God was leading them into more than what they had been into.
Well -- ok, cool. Whatever -- I pretty much ignored it.
To me -- it didn't matter one way or the other.
But I was still curious why the shift from *educational service* to *church*.
CES (imo) has always promoted local fellowship, with local control.
But now --with this new revelation of a prophetic council (to me at least),
I can see many ways that it can be abused -- such as has already been posted here.
I DON'T see how it can be Godly -- given the evidence of what has happened.
And then there is the name change,
from Christian Educational to Spirit and Truth.
I thought it pretty egotistical, despite the *reasons* given for it.
Why change the name -- unless you are trying to *redefine* yourself?
And if you're redefining yourself --what direction are you going, eh?
I just chalked it up to ---- hmmmmmm. (don't remember what I chalked that one up to). :blink:
So -- no red flags --- but I'm thinking that while offering info is good,
Here is a letter that might shed some light on things.
It is to Mark Graeser from Dan Gallagher (then the CEO).
This was before Dan was fired and they were still trying to hold each other accountable.
__________________________
Mark,
I appreciate the meeting we had at the Home-office the other day as I know you do too. I know we are all a mixed bag with many motives, some known to us and, unfortunately many unknown. Both of us have made many mistakes in our lives and thankfully the Lord has extended great grace to us. I do not judge you to ever be intentionally operating in an ungodly way or with impure motives. Be that as it may, I do believe you have made significant errors of judgment and execution for a variety of reasons.
It is my understanding that we are in agreement that neither you nor I have had any outstanding Matthew 18 issues between us. I stated in our meeting, and you acknowledged this as true and that any issues between us have been openly stated to each other before. You did confess to me a sense that I have betrayed you by not defending you when others have made statements about your lack of administrational ability. I have not defended you when others have made negative statements about your administrational handling because most of what is said is true, however, I indicated to you that I have never held this to your charge. We both have agreed that you are capable of “getting us by” with your level of administrational ability.
I know that many have seen significant improvements over the past two years with my involvement in the affairs of the Home-office. Some have attributed this to me citing that I am gifted in administration. I believe that many have misunderstood what and how it is that I operate. I believe my ministry is similar to that of an orchestra leader. I don’t make the music but I get the musicians to play in harmony with each other. I am not the most talented one on the team but I know how to get the team to play in unison. I believe that is an aspect of my apostolic ministry. Some may want to call this administration but I see it as the ability to lead.
I have stated on many occasions that I am a blocker. I take out of the way the things that impede each player’s ability to do their job. When I arrived there were many things in the Home-office that were hindering each team member from doing what they do best. I merely took those obstacles out of the way. The result was that Jeff was able to shine in his administrational gifts, Matthew was able to get the publishing unjammed, John Schoenheit was able to focus on his research and writings, Ryan was able to focus on website development, etc.
The other day I spoke with Richard and extended myself to him, indicating that he could call me any time on any question and I would do my best to help. The fact is though that I have no idea how orders are processed, materials shipped, calls taken, or routed, websites engineered, etc., etc. As CEO it was never my job to do these things, rather I make sure the flow keeps going by getting everyone else to do their job.
When I arrived we had many breakdowns and problems in the Home-office because the things that I did you hadn’t, and the things I do, you don’t. I believe you are a good leader in many ways but you are not good in the way that I am. Our competencies are different. One is not better than the other, they are just different, and we need both to make things happen. I do believe we have reached a point where we are stepping on each others toes and causing the ministry to stumble. I pray that we can work this out and we need the Board of Directors to clarify its role, the role of president and CEO, define our respective responsibility, authority, and most importantly, agree on the direction of this ministry.
It is my belief that we are still in disagreement on some very important issues. Over the past few weeks there has been a lot of discussion about Matthew 18 and resolving our disagreements because they must be the result of personal offenses. Some offenses may be present but I believe this is not generally the cause of the Board breakdown. We must acknowledge that disagreements are not always the result of offenses. I believe this is the case with you and me. We have different perspectives and I am sensing that we are desiring the ministry to go in different directions.
Listed below a few questions that I think need to be answered.
1. In the last six months numerous negative events have transpired with in our Home-office and faith community.
• Karen Anne’s coming into the Home-office to discuss Rachel Collum’s job performance at the Women’s conference.
• Jeff’s resulting offense with Karen Anne concerning their private “backroom” meeting.
• Jeff’s continued breakdown with Karen Anne (via the telephone call).
• Jeff’s breakdown conversation with Anita.
• Mark and Karen Anne’s resistance and objections to Dan’s procedural methods in the handling of the Jeff matters.
• Mark and Karen Anne’s breakdowns regarding Dan
• Mark’s failure to recuse himself for six weeks from the Jeff matters, in spite of Dan’s numerous requests to do so (noted that you did recuse yourself when Tom suggested it one time).
• Disruption and disunity in the Home-office staff (a great sense of team cohesion has been lost).
• The Home-office staff involvement and resulting angst in Jeff’s leaving.
• The staff’s concern over their Board’s ability to govern this ministry.
• The present atmosphere of distrust of the Board in general.
• Many of the Board members lack of confidence in you as the president.
• The distraction of the Board from being able to move any of the normal ministry business forward in any significant way (i.e. event planning, calendar setting, ministry priority planning, etc.).
What role, if any, have you contributed to or are responsible for the above?
2. You have admitted publicly to agreeing with John Lynn to conceal from your wife and the Board of Directors your sexual involvement with Elizabeth Lynn twenty years ago.
a. Given our history with The Way and what has happened with John Lynn, what actions do you believe our faith community would expect us to take concerning the president of this ministry deceiving his wife and the Board, and conspiring with another clergy member to do so?
b. What would you recommend for another ministry officer, Board member, or clergy member if they did this?
c. Accounting is one thing and amending another. What steps do you believe should be taken for trust and amendment to be made?
3. In light of the Elizabeth Lynn disclosure you have experienced great turmoil personally, martially, and throughout your family. I highly commend you for you ability to compartmentalize and to continue to play wounded and to show up no matter what. In spite of this I have the following questions;
d. Do you believe that you have been able to operate professionally with objectivity and proper judgment?
e. How has this crisis affected you in your professional life?
I wish we could all be together to discuss these issues face to face but I am honoring your request to put my questions of you in writing.
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therebutforgrace
To get back on the topic of CES' doctrines or practices.....
I here and now state, from personal experience, that whatever influence was placed upon JAL and E was not new to CES' doctrines and practices.
In the last 19? years, it has been placed on JAL and on others in different situations over and over again and this includes up to this very month.
It has simply gotten more brazen over time and, as someone said, personal prophecy has allowed it to happen faster.
I must leave the Cafe at this present time. I will be back tonight...and I will give clear examples.....but when I do, I request that no one diverts the point from CES' public doctrines and practices into something personal.
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cman
The 'church' is not ces or whatever name you want to give it.
The church is within.
And it is within an individual to work out problems.
Be it marriage or whatever.
If more then one is involved, the person must be honest.
Admit his faults and weaknesses to God the other person and,
if a third party, Not a 'church' was to be involved by these two asking their help.
The most simple thing to do is to help these two help themselves.
They are not to make a ruling in such a matter as marriage.
It's outside of their, the third person's responsibility.
Though the two have made it the other's business.
That does NOT mean that that person has the right to say what to do.
Offering alternates and courses of action to take to resolve the problem.
That is the only way it will work in a GODLY manner.
Otherwise it is self seeking, gratifying of the flesh under the pretense of
Godly direction.
The direction for one to take is in that person.
NO ONE ELSE.
There is not an easy way out of hard situations.
These things are to be handled in a Godly manner.
If someone is involved in helping my marriage, it is still me and my wife to discover and find the answers within ourselves and not from within another person.
Even if divorce is a suggestion from this third party, it must be whole heartedly from the heart of the two that are married.
Clearly the scriptures declare that if one is married to not seek a divorce and another wife. Unless the unbelieving depart.
And that's the tricky part what is being believed, God or what someone else is saying God says.
If one goes by what someone else says God says then it is plain to see that it was not their decision but someone elses'.
Thanks for bringing that up Raf,
Divorce should always be the last resort.
Leaving CES would have probably solved a lot of problems while they were married.
In fact I suspect these [edited by modcat5] stem from what ces and the rest of the group was doing to them.
Remaining ignorant of the causes, and still the problems are not solved.
Divorced or not.
Running from your problems is never the answer.
They always follow you whereever you go.
Taking an honest and thorough look at themselves would help.
Righting wrongs.
Facing the challenges that will come no matter what situation one is in.
Edited by modcat5Link to comment
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Abigail
I am not now, nor have I ever been affiliated with CES. However, I am human and curious, especially given who the players are in this particular drama.
I couldn't read all of the letter though. I brought back too many painful memories and emotions - the craziness of it all. It is all too familiar, too similar to my own experience with TWI (minus the "prophesies" cause we had "revelation" instead :blink:)
My heart breaks for John and Elizabeth - I don't care who is right and who is wrong or who did what to whom. It is madness - the doctrine, the power struggles, all of it. How sad for them and how horrendously wrong for other people to have interjected themselves into their marriage and couched it in the guise of love and godliness.
I do understand airing it. I understand her desire to have her side heard. I understand the desire to protect others, to warn them. I wish I had known what I was getting into before I joined TWI. But mostly, I just feel very very sad to see another marriage in ruins because of bad doctrine, meddling and a thirst for for power and control.
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Cynic
What a soap opera!
(Duplicate post to replace one that disappeared)
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pawtucket
My goal in this forum is to expose the secrecy and darkness that has infiltrated CES. I don't mind naming leaders, they are public figures.
I do have a problem with getting into the intimate details of a marriage from a 3rd party. I'm not a big JAL fan, by any means, he's done some things back in the TWI days that I will never forget. But I would much rather that one of the two parties share that if they want.
I've removed a block of posts and will review them in a few hours. Sorry if this takes away from the flow of the discussion.
I know that this is not a pleasant discussion for anyone. I would like to thank all the GSers and non GSers giving some sensible advice to those that have been victimized. The scenarios have changed somewhat but the bottom line is people getting bilked.
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sprawled out
i didn't read every word of her letter, but i think it was completely appropriate. it spells out the problems of STFI--and of their top brASS--in a way i'd like every member (or whatever they call 'em) to read. maybe it would wake a few of them up. and they most definitely need waking.
though i'm sure that most of them will insist that she's to blame. and continue to hang around, give their time and love and money, until something even MORE grevious happens. a lawsuit, maybe.
have i mentioned i think they're all NUTS?
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cman
From my previous post I must say that physical and mental abuses can be resolved.
Though most, not all, have ended in divorce or the lives of the two married and their children are threatened and sometimes end in death.
So i'm not saying stick it out and endure the abuse, but try to resolve the problem-If possible .
Unfortunately for most they are self willed, self seeking people who will not change by choice.
Choose to solve the problems honestly.
You have not figured them out.
A higher power then you must be called in.
And this power is not you.
Or another person.
All you have to know about God is that he is.
And it ain't you.
Seek his help.
Suggestions from others who know this power,
will inspire courses of action, things to do,
and things to maintain.
May God keep you in His Holy Hand,
As we keep ours in His.
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ChasUFarley
Saying they're "nuts" maybe easy from where you sit, but the same could be said from anyone who spent time in TWI. Someone from the "outside" might not understand how we could consider someone like VPW a "father in the Word". Heck, just admitting you SIT could seem more crazy than this dream stuff.
... by the way, try a Google on "dream interpretation in the Bible" and you get a ton of other ministies who teach this stuff...
Some have questioned the relavancy of this thread on this forum. I see it as being especially relavent considering that many former twi-ers are a part of CES and CES has somewhat fashioned its ministry after TWI. It's also a ministry that many former twi'ers will possibly look to as a place to go when they leave and are looking for a group who will understand them. God knows, I did - but found it wasn't my cuppa tea. My husband had fellowship with them for a few years but distanced himself shortly after we met and I started questioning the "personal prophsey" thing - it seems like a message from God in a Happy Meal box, you know - just all done up special for you with a toy. I valued the worship manifestations too much to buy it.
Additionally, where else will people go to hear this about CES? I know of no other board like this and this can put the info out there in the mainstream.
Like I've said - CES could be a good thing. After this, they'd be smart to ditch the whole thing and start over with a new cast.
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Ham
Hmmm. Could be, but often the skunk-pelt gets passed to someone who proves themselves to be "properly qualified.."
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cman
Hey Mr. Hammeroni,
Every one is properly qualified to give themselves to God.
And make Godly choices.
No one is properly qualified to choose for someone else.
Someoneelse that has gone so far to the point of not being capable of making decisions. There are such people. People are to help them get back to where they can decide and make choices.
Some times these people never recover from insanity.
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joeoday
Capn Crunch,
I have to say that the dream stuff you posted that was presented to elizabeth does seem nuts (and most certainly EVIL). I'm guessing that your point was exactly that.
I don't thinik the problems is "dreams "per se. God clearly says that He can talk through dreams and visions. He did with Abraham, Joseph, Daniel, Ezekial, Job, Joseph (Mary's husband), and even Paul (the man from Macedonia). Were they all nuts? I think not. The problem is not dreams, but that they claim that those demonic images are from God. Of primary importantance in any dream is determining the source.(God, your own soul,, or Satan).
I have been invovled with CES/STF since 2000 and I think the problem they are experiencing now is the fact that the Graeser's and these "prophets" are being held to account. How else do you explain the fact that four faithful employees have either resigned or been terminated in the past five weeks (there are only two full time employees now left besides Mark and John Schoenheit). I have talked to those fired and they were confronting Mark and fighting for change, that's why they are gone. John Lynn hasn't been on the Board or payroll for at least two years.
John Lynn has recently wieighed in on this and taken the Graeser's on too. I know there are some good people on the Board who have been fighting Mark tooth and nail. Let's pray for good to come from this. I won't condemn an entire organizatioin because a few are bad.
Don't get me wrong, that stuff with Elizabeht was wrong and the responsible parties need to repent, account and make amends.
And by the way, CES has no fellowships. They allow fellowships to post their informatiion on their websites but they exert no authority or control over any fellowships, and they have never asked anyone to sign any type of agreement (Code of Conduct or otherwise).
Watching from the side lines.
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joeoday
Rich,
What's the good? :unsure: You have me curious.
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markomalley
TWI only had four members. Then six. Then whatever.
None of us (AC Grads, Corps Grads, Piffle Grads, College Prog Grads) except the Board of Directors/Board of Trustees/whatever were members of TWI.
Something to keep it in perspective.
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joeoday
Mark,
Good point, However, I remember in The W.y that they exercised a lot of control and authority over people. My perspective is there is a big difference between the two organizations.
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Abigail
I dunno Joe, it sounds to me like CES exercises a good deal of control in people's lives too. They may cloak it differently, but from what I've read of Elizabeth's letter, its the same ...., different day to me. Maybe they haven't tried to exercise that much control over the lives of the "little people" yet, but it seems like that would be the direction they are heading in.
fool me once, as they say.
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GrouchoMarxJr
In my brief encounter with CES, I saw plenty of control...
...and plenty of religion and plenty of ego trips and plenty of "following men" rather than the Lord...
that's why my encounter was brief.
Why is it that folks need a "spiritual guru" anyway?...
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richnchrispy
This is Chrispy-
Someone asked about deliverance sessions that Elizabeth mentions in her letter. I remember being at a conference, can't remember when, but Dan was there and people were scheduling deliverance sessions with him. He had a questionaire that was to be filled out and then, I have heard, during the session, he would go down the list, interpreting your responses as indicative of demonic influence or not, then cast something out if he thought something was there. Problem was that some of the questions were very personal. Like have you had any sexual dreams, etc.
If you did fill out this questionaire, they have a lot of spiritual, if not literal, blackmail power over you. Perhaps it could just be a look that meant, "Agree with me, or I know exactly what to say to innocently let the cat out of the bag."
That is what momentus was all about. Poke and prod until you find a weakness and then push until you make a breakthrough. In other words, the object of the torture sees it your way and submits. Once you make that a habit, they own your soul. Guess who they are working for?
You have to understand that the people working this evil don't realize it is evil. They really think they are doing a great service. The proof is in the fruit.
More of the right people are being networked together. Some healing is taking place. Ignorance is being brushed away and fog dispelled. I see glimmers of repentance.
Sorry I can't be more specific at this time. But the pipeline is flowing.
The Ents are stirring and I think when they see the other Ents and trees that have been hacked to pieces, well who knows what might happen. Frodo and Samwise are approaching Mount Doom with the ring. The fellowship of the ring continues. One really small person can make a difference.
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cman
I meet prophets and prophets who are women a lot.
None of them tell me what to do or think.
Depends on what a person thinks a prophet is a suppose.
psssst....it ain't what we were taught in twi
And as for those who think we at gsc should get a life, as i heard somewhere on this thread. Thank you i am perhaps you should quit telling me what to do in such vague repulsive venom, and check out what really is happening with a lot of people here at gsc.
It's not their lives, but a small portion of it. Look a little deeper then your shallow empty words.
People will live and have died here at gsc.
God knows the contribution to each individual this place has brought.
No allegiance is required nor membership.
Those who run this forum do it from their hearts,
expecting nothing in return.
God is not unrighteous to forget their labor of love.
No tapes, no books, no weekly newsletter.
But real life experiences and documentation by the hundreds,
and even thousands.
Thousands of great truths from the real prophets.
Those who speak from the heart.
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excathedra
i'm sorry i haven't kept up with this thread. and i couldn't bear to read the elizabeth prophecies. i was just wondering..... how is she doing ? if anyone knows her, please give her my best. i know that sounds weird but i feel terrible for her.....
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bliss
"If you want him, come and claim him!"
sorry, just the very mention of LOTR and I let the middle earth in me come out!
I am praying for all these folks to get it together.
You all know that TWI is just salivating for CES to come crashing down don't you?
That way they can brag about how ''cop-outs fail, yada yada".
Makes me ill thinking about it.
Yet, so does what this ''personal prophesy crappola is doing to hurt folks. Shame.
I am not involved with any offshoots at all, but one of the things that helped my escape from TWI was JL's letter and John S paper on Adultery. Hopefully, this thread can shake their memories a bit...........
Start making Jesus Lord people, and stop Lording over God's heritage!!!
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excathedra
i tried to read all of elizabeth's letter to john
ohmygod all this stuff is public between husband and wife ????????????????????
anyway, i couldn't get through it all
i just want to say, these people are insane
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dmiller
Hey there Belle. Didn't mean to ignore this question.
Looking through the beginnings of this thread, I ran across it again,
and since I didn't answer then, here's the perspective.
(Would that be the *Present Truth*?)
Can't say that anything was a *red flag* for me.
But things were happening that made me curious.
(Please don't ask for *dates or a timeline* -- I'll get it wrong if I try!)
Like I said in an earlier post, given my *involvement* with CES,
to me they were predominantly a source of info for Christians with questions.
Or atheists with questions, or ANYONE with questions, and I liked that.
The early teachings were (imo) great. Stuff you could sink your teeth into.
Things that made you think, pull out the bible, and do some extra looking on your own.
Somewhere along the line -- the teachings became more vague.
Then they became completely blah-zayy, with reports of how a teen camp went, or something.
While I'm glad the teens had a good time at *camp*,
I don't want to hear about it on the tape that used to have teaching on it instead.
Occassionally something good from John Schoenheit will be offered,
but those are getting few and far between.
A lot of the tapes done by Mark G are philosophical ramblings that lose me quickly.
As another poster here once said to me in the chat room --
"Mark G belongs in a college classroom, where he can put the students to sleep".
(Or something very close to that effect).
Also -- their move from being an info - based org (again my perspective),
to that of being a full blown church was puzzling. My question was Why?
The answer to that question was in a Sower magazine (and on a monthly tape),
that they (CES) felt that God was leading them into more than what they had been into.
Well -- ok, cool. Whatever -- I pretty much ignored it.
To me -- it didn't matter one way or the other.
But I was still curious why the shift from *educational service* to *church*.
CES (imo) has always promoted local fellowship, with local control.
But now --with this new revelation of a prophetic council (to me at least),
I can see many ways that it can be abused -- such as has already been posted here.
I DON'T see how it can be Godly -- given the evidence of what has happened.
And then there is the name change,
from Christian Educational to Spirit and Truth.
I thought it pretty egotistical, despite the *reasons* given for it.
Why change the name -- unless you are trying to *redefine* yourself?
And if you're redefining yourself --what direction are you going, eh?
I just chalked it up to ---- hmmmmmm. (don't remember what I chalked that one up to). :blink:
So -- no red flags --- but I'm thinking that while offering info is good,
leave the *church* aspect up to the individual.
Hopefully -- CES might consider this.
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Jeff USAF RET
Here is a letter that might shed some light on things.
It is to Mark Graeser from Dan Gallagher (then the CEO).
This was before Dan was fired and they were still trying to hold each other accountable.
__________________________
Mark,
I appreciate the meeting we had at the Home-office the other day as I know you do too. I know we are all a mixed bag with many motives, some known to us and, unfortunately many unknown. Both of us have made many mistakes in our lives and thankfully the Lord has extended great grace to us. I do not judge you to ever be intentionally operating in an ungodly way or with impure motives. Be that as it may, I do believe you have made significant errors of judgment and execution for a variety of reasons.
It is my understanding that we are in agreement that neither you nor I have had any outstanding Matthew 18 issues between us. I stated in our meeting, and you acknowledged this as true and that any issues between us have been openly stated to each other before. You did confess to me a sense that I have betrayed you by not defending you when others have made statements about your lack of administrational ability. I have not defended you when others have made negative statements about your administrational handling because most of what is said is true, however, I indicated to you that I have never held this to your charge. We both have agreed that you are capable of “getting us by” with your level of administrational ability.
I know that many have seen significant improvements over the past two years with my involvement in the affairs of the Home-office. Some have attributed this to me citing that I am gifted in administration. I believe that many have misunderstood what and how it is that I operate. I believe my ministry is similar to that of an orchestra leader. I don’t make the music but I get the musicians to play in harmony with each other. I am not the most talented one on the team but I know how to get the team to play in unison. I believe that is an aspect of my apostolic ministry. Some may want to call this administration but I see it as the ability to lead.
I have stated on many occasions that I am a blocker. I take out of the way the things that impede each player’s ability to do their job. When I arrived there were many things in the Home-office that were hindering each team member from doing what they do best. I merely took those obstacles out of the way. The result was that Jeff was able to shine in his administrational gifts, Matthew was able to get the publishing unjammed, John Schoenheit was able to focus on his research and writings, Ryan was able to focus on website development, etc.
The other day I spoke with Richard and extended myself to him, indicating that he could call me any time on any question and I would do my best to help. The fact is though that I have no idea how orders are processed, materials shipped, calls taken, or routed, websites engineered, etc., etc. As CEO it was never my job to do these things, rather I make sure the flow keeps going by getting everyone else to do their job.
When I arrived we had many breakdowns and problems in the Home-office because the things that I did you hadn’t, and the things I do, you don’t. I believe you are a good leader in many ways but you are not good in the way that I am. Our competencies are different. One is not better than the other, they are just different, and we need both to make things happen. I do believe we have reached a point where we are stepping on each others toes and causing the ministry to stumble. I pray that we can work this out and we need the Board of Directors to clarify its role, the role of president and CEO, define our respective responsibility, authority, and most importantly, agree on the direction of this ministry.
It is my belief that we are still in disagreement on some very important issues. Over the past few weeks there has been a lot of discussion about Matthew 18 and resolving our disagreements because they must be the result of personal offenses. Some offenses may be present but I believe this is not generally the cause of the Board breakdown. We must acknowledge that disagreements are not always the result of offenses. I believe this is the case with you and me. We have different perspectives and I am sensing that we are desiring the ministry to go in different directions.
Listed below a few questions that I think need to be answered.
1. In the last six months numerous negative events have transpired with in our Home-office and faith community.
• Karen Anne’s coming into the Home-office to discuss Rachel Collum’s job performance at the Women’s conference.
• Jeff’s resulting offense with Karen Anne concerning their private “backroom” meeting.
• Jeff’s continued breakdown with Karen Anne (via the telephone call).
• Jeff’s breakdown conversation with Anita.
• Mark and Karen Anne’s resistance and objections to Dan’s procedural methods in the handling of the Jeff matters.
• Mark and Karen Anne’s breakdowns regarding Dan
• Mark’s failure to recuse himself for six weeks from the Jeff matters, in spite of Dan’s numerous requests to do so (noted that you did recuse yourself when Tom suggested it one time).
• Disruption and disunity in the Home-office staff (a great sense of team cohesion has been lost).
• The Home-office staff involvement and resulting angst in Jeff’s leaving.
• The staff’s concern over their Board’s ability to govern this ministry.
• The present atmosphere of distrust of the Board in general.
• Many of the Board members lack of confidence in you as the president.
• The distraction of the Board from being able to move any of the normal ministry business forward in any significant way (i.e. event planning, calendar setting, ministry priority planning, etc.).
What role, if any, have you contributed to or are responsible for the above?
2. You have admitted publicly to agreeing with John Lynn to conceal from your wife and the Board of Directors your sexual involvement with Elizabeth Lynn twenty years ago.
a. Given our history with The Way and what has happened with John Lynn, what actions do you believe our faith community would expect us to take concerning the president of this ministry deceiving his wife and the Board, and conspiring with another clergy member to do so?
b. What would you recommend for another ministry officer, Board member, or clergy member if they did this?
c. Accounting is one thing and amending another. What steps do you believe should be taken for trust and amendment to be made?
3. In light of the Elizabeth Lynn disclosure you have experienced great turmoil personally, martially, and throughout your family. I highly commend you for you ability to compartmentalize and to continue to play wounded and to show up no matter what. In spite of this I have the following questions;
d. Do you believe that you have been able to operate professionally with objectivity and proper judgment?
e. How has this crisis affected you in your professional life?
I wish we could all be together to discuss these issues face to face but I am honoring your request to put my questions of you in writing.
Much love in Christ,
Dan
____________________________________________________
I have no idea how Mark replied...other than Dan is no longer the CEO (Mark fired him).
Jeff
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dmiller
Dang!! It get's deeper. :(
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