Sunesis, I was nausiated by the cruel accusations in those letter.
It is very scary to read of people seeing this stuff, much less believing it true of a sister.
I can only imagine how devistated the falsely accused woman must have felt, how crushing to have this believed of ones self by their spouse and ministers and bretheren.
Maybe I am reading my own feelings into it, having once been accused by a simple tc`s wife...I seriously wanted to kill myself.....
I can only imagine the hell visited upon this woman. I have to wonder how many others have been treated this way?
They are the ones that need our prayers.
It was awfull that this happened to people under the guise of a Christian ministry.
Who can one turn to if they believe that God spoke through these people??
Where can they turn when the people of the ministry all view them as evil?
Sunesis, that's the kind of thing I had to endure from my husband and TWI. I couldn't read much of her letter because it reduced me to heaving sobs for her. My heart goes out to her and I can say from experience, I'm still trying to recover from my experiences and they don't even compare to hers. :(
I sat next to my ex in a "meeting" with our HFC and local WC leadership getting ripped a new one while my ex sat there staring at the floor and saying nothing till he apologized TO THEM. That would have been bad enough if I didn't know that he agreed with everything I had said and done prior to being called into that meeting.
Tom, thanks, hope there's a thought or two there that will help someone. Although I'm not trying to chase anyone from their friends or family there's a value in people getting at least a part of their religious and spiritual life out and away from the Way and ex-Way learning stream and influence.
Karen G. isn't a prophet. As to CES, a lot of these people have been around the block a few too many times. It's time they give it a rest and put an end to all of this foolishness and allow for help.
I got a suggestion, if it hasn't been started already.
Anybody here remember how John Lynn, when he was kicked out of TWI, went around to the different twigs and wrote to the different leaders and active grads letting them all know what was going on inside International Headquarters? And this was after he couldn't get a straight answer out of the leadership? One of the ways was that 1988 letter of his that he mailed around to as many grads as he could. (I got a copy of that very same letter)
Well, I suggest that folks here do the same thing, and send these posts, those PDFs about Elizabeth, and any other pertinent material to as many CES participants, sponsors, friends, et al, as possible. Why not? John Lynn did that to TWI, and many here who benefited from actions like that haven't seen anything wrong with when he did it, right?
So I say do the same thing to them. Who knows how many folks might break free from what CES/STFI is turning into at the top, which is sure to spread downward to the associated fellowships. Whatever resemblance this organization has to any real helpful ministry is breaking apart fast, and as you all can already see, people are being hurt because of it.
I posted the tapes it was not Tom, I think you missed the point of why I did which as you pointed out was not the tapes themselves, but was the path they were heading down. Once the Personal prophecies began it was not hard to see the direction they were headed in was not good. Knowing that they were relying on that information for direction it was logically a matter of time before there was a disagreement about the Personal prophecies when one did not quite turn out to the listeners liking. If that happened of course they (CES/STFI) would be in the right being the more instructed ones. Which would leave the other party as the one with the problem. It was an accident waiting to happen, and should have been no surprise to anyone when it did. Did anyone really think that the STIF person giving the prophecies was going to diminish their credibility as a prophet and say "Oh I must be wrong about what I said" nope they are logically going to "dig in and stand for what they believe is right". It is classic clergy laity separation thinking. It was one step on to Corporate Prophesies as Karen referred to them. Obviously if this was good enough for people to direct their lives by even better to run a ministry by. It was weird in 2000 and IMHO had no chance of getting anything but worse. Flash forward to 2006 - Whoop there it is! A mess!
It is too bad because CES has been helpful to many people at times but they have IMHO taken too many uncharted roads that have destroyed their credibility like Momentus, hooking up with Da*e S*des,and a few others along the way and this, personal prophecies.
Something VP said that has stood me well..." God is big enough to tell you something first, he doesn't need to tell someone to tell you..." ( if'n yer listenin' of course. ) God told me to get my family the hell away from twi and to stay the hell away from ces.
Allan, thanks for sharing that. If folks who have been hurt ( and administering the hurt) would've followed Wierwilles advice in this instance, think of all the trouble that would've been avoided.
All the gossip, the evil surmisings, the meddlings in peoples lives, could all have been avoided.
It was all right there in PFAL :) (aka "mind your own business")
Well, either 1) Elizabeth have given her consent by allowing her letter to be posted on GS already, or 2) she doesn't know about the letter going public.
In any event, a lot more information about CES-turning-into-a-mental-institution is already in the public domain, so since that is the case, I say we help spread it.
Besides, how many CES participants, sponsors, friends, et al, know what's going on at their 'root locale', hmmm? I'd be willing to bet that this is very similar to the TWI twiggies NOT knowing what was going on at TWI HQ back during the 'fog years'. And I imagine that there were/are a lot of them who were grateful at finding out, thus enabling and emboldening them to leave.
Sunesis - that is why I have reacted so strongly in this thread I guess.........My heart is just broken for this woman and I think she is just totally brave putting it all out there................I also thought and for lack of a better term "this prophecy council" sounded very devilish.........evil...........good lord, spiders coming out of peoples noses now....how could there be so much darkness in a place that claims they have such light..........and enlightenment.
Did not anyone else get sick readings these prophecies that sound like they came from the pit of hell?
In alot of ways, first that KA would project her own shadow on to Elizabeth, blaming Elizabeth for dreams about her own self, her infantile and childish interpretations of her dreams and secondly that JAL would stand by and fall for such crap laid against his wife.
If individuals want to give credence to dreams then fine, many people, religions and cultures throughout history have--but they should learn at least a basic something about them before they use them to play with fire and destroy other peoples lives. Mountains of serious work about dream interpretation is available (Jung etc.) but if you are Mr or Miss KnowIt All I guess you can just bypass that
Dreams can be beneficial, but if you were to believe in such things, they are always about yourself, generally using images in your everyday life to give you and you alone symbolic insight into your own subconscious and shadow so that you can see your own areas of need.
Its really sick how childish these people are, and how they are willing to follow any new messiah of the hour while doing absolutely no homework on the subject, and sacrifice their own on the altar of their own egos
Oldies, please have a little heart and don't turn this thread into another one of your commercials for PFAL. CES/STFI is the offspring of TWI/PFAL so please just don't go there.
You can start another thread in this forum for that if you wish but please don't bog it down, or dillute it with your commercial.
YOU KNOW EXACTLY WHERE THAT WILL LEAD, IT'S WHY YOU DO IT AND IT'S WRONG.
I know the reason the Bible Lands videos were not produced was because of a lack of funds. I thinking you are over stating your role on that tour by a long shot. You were a participant and although you may have helped at times you did not go to carry lights etc. Let's stay honest here.
How CES/STF Board members handle this mess will determine their reputation for me. If they rise to the occasion, I won't lump them with others dead to me now because of broken promises. Because those that would consider themselves leaders have an implied promise to those they claim to serve.
Crispy,
I agree wholeheartedly. Every organizatiuon will have problems. What matters is not if they have a problem but how they correct them. Me thinks that is what we call fruit.
I found pond/mj's post rather enlightening about how Mark blocked her email address when she asked him to address the issues that are being discussed on this board...
Whoops! Fells asleep for a moment and had a little dream...
It went something like this:
A baby in a diaper, but with Mark's adult head, starts trying to do damage control from his playpen...
Just kidding...
Seriously... $5 says that the one of the two anonymous readers on this thread right now is Mark and another $5 says the other anonymous reader is JAL. They say they want nothing to do with this board, but I bet my bippy that they've checked this out by now - gimme a break.
Hi guys!
It's sad that CES has gone as far south as it has. It could have been a good thing. It could still be a good thing if they clean up their act and stop experimenting with the occult.
My impression, when I went to a meeting where JAL came to Manchester, NH (that was hosted by PJRoberge) was that he (JAL) didn't know how to take care of people at all. His teaching that night consisted of tangents and little fact or scripture. He never put his focus on the needs of the group or the area - just CERTAIN individuals. His interactions with others that night after the teaching consisted on "readings" or personal phrophsey and no interactiosn with people who didn't want that - i.e. he shunned them (me!).
Thanks, but no thanks.
Hubby continued to follow along with some of their stuff until about a year ago, but from a distance - THANK GOD!
This is the Rich half of the dynamic duo. Lots of good posts. I think much of the non-doctrinal problem with this ministry is again due to the underlying leadership paradigm that they believe and live. And I believe that much of this paradigm is one shared with the American Corporate world and with TWI.
It is the opposite of The Lord of the Rings written by Tolkien which had at its basis the theme that the little man could do something that would make a difference. American business, sports and TWI and many other ministries are based upon belief in the superstar.
Too many people I know both ex WAy and otherwise discount their worth because some "leader" somewhere discounted it and either belittled them outright or did it by ignoring them and talking up the superstar.
Prayer is certainly necessary but the longer some of these people remain in ignore and (damage) control mode the more it becomes apparent that some of them think they have done nothing wrong.
It will just go away eventually. Not everyone will read GS.
There have been backroom politics and what I believe to have been manipulation to gain control of this ministry and board going on for several years - which is why some have not been free to be as verbal as they have liked although they are leaders. Remember that satan is a deceiver and so this is not the first or last time that a leader would lie or be lied to. There are people now on board this train who did not listen several years ago when others blew the train whistle.
But get enough poo smeared on ya and one day ya wake up and realize you no longer smell like flowers.
I hope there are no kids on this board reading this..
I couldnt read it all.
THey should handle this on thier own and thier church,,but rumors spread fast and the dishearted who are distant need reasoning..Cyber space is probaly not the best way to handle this. jusy mhpo
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notinKansasanymore
Well, then let's PRAY for them. If they're having troubles, and if their original intention was to serve God and help His people (and we can all recall that this is not a goal without natural obsta
Sushi
I'm not exactly sure of the quote, but someone once said, "All organizations have the seeds of death planted in them at their beginning", or something to that effect. You can be sure, whatever organiz
Whatsgoingon
I am very discouraged with my present involvement with STFI. If Mark G causes more issues with SFTI after he is removed from office next week we will probably cease our involvement with that organizat
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rascal
Sunesis, I was nausiated by the cruel accusations in those letter.
It is very scary to read of people seeing this stuff, much less believing it true of a sister.
I can only imagine how devistated the falsely accused woman must have felt, how crushing to have this believed of ones self by their spouse and ministers and bretheren.
Maybe I am reading my own feelings into it, having once been accused by a simple tc`s wife...I seriously wanted to kill myself.....
I can only imagine the hell visited upon this woman. I have to wonder how many others have been treated this way?
They are the ones that need our prayers.
It was awfull that this happened to people under the guise of a Christian ministry.
Who can one turn to if they believe that God spoke through these people??
Where can they turn when the people of the ministry all view them as evil?
This stuff makes my skin crawl.
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rascal
Ditto what Krys said.
T&O that certainly gives one something to consider.
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Belle
Sunesis, that's the kind of thing I had to endure from my husband and TWI. I couldn't read much of her letter because it reduced me to heaving sobs for her. My heart goes out to her and I can say from experience, I'm still trying to recover from my experiences and they don't even compare to hers. :(
I sat next to my ex in a "meeting" with our HFC and local WC leadership getting ripped a new one while my ex sat there staring at the floor and saying nothing till he apologized TO THEM. That would have been bad enough if I didn't know that he agreed with everything I had said and done prior to being called into that meeting.
I just can't imagine and words fail me.
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socks
Yah, I had to grab the Tums myself, Sunesis.
Tom, thanks, hope there's a thought or two there that will help someone. Although I'm not trying to chase anyone from their friends or family there's a value in people getting at least a part of their religious and spiritual life out and away from the Way and ex-Way learning stream and influence.
Karen G. isn't a prophet. As to CES, a lot of these people have been around the block a few too many times. It's time they give it a rest and put an end to all of this foolishness and allow for help.
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GarthP2000
I got a suggestion, if it hasn't been started already.
Anybody here remember how John Lynn, when he was kicked out of TWI, went around to the different twigs and wrote to the different leaders and active grads letting them all know what was going on inside International Headquarters? And this was after he couldn't get a straight answer out of the leadership? One of the ways was that 1988 letter of his that he mailed around to as many grads as he could. (I got a copy of that very same letter)
Well, I suggest that folks here do the same thing, and send these posts, those PDFs about Elizabeth, and any other pertinent material to as many CES participants, sponsors, friends, et al, as possible. Why not? John Lynn did that to TWI, and many here who benefited from actions like that haven't seen anything wrong with when he did it, right?
So I say do the same thing to them. Who knows how many folks might break free from what CES/STFI is turning into at the top, which is sure to spread downward to the associated fellowships. Whatever resemblance this organization has to any real helpful ministry is breaking apart fast, and as you all can already see, people are being hurt because of it.
... Just ask Elizabeth.
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Raf
Finally read the prophecies.
Glad I stopped giving money to that organization.
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ex10
My thoughts perxactly, Raf.
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Raf
Garth, I think that would be up to Elizabeth.
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WhiteDove
I posted the tapes it was not Tom, I think you missed the point of why I did which as you pointed out was not the tapes themselves, but was the path they were heading down. Once the Personal prophecies began it was not hard to see the direction they were headed in was not good. Knowing that they were relying on that information for direction it was logically a matter of time before there was a disagreement about the Personal prophecies when one did not quite turn out to the listeners liking. If that happened of course they (CES/STFI) would be in the right being the more instructed ones. Which would leave the other party as the one with the problem. It was an accident waiting to happen, and should have been no surprise to anyone when it did. Did anyone really think that the STIF person giving the prophecies was going to diminish their credibility as a prophet and say "Oh I must be wrong about what I said" nope they are logically going to "dig in and stand for what they believe is right". It is classic clergy laity separation thinking. It was one step on to Corporate Prophesies as Karen referred to them. Obviously if this was good enough for people to direct their lives by even better to run a ministry by. It was weird in 2000 and IMHO had no chance of getting anything but worse. Flash forward to 2006 - Whoop there it is! A mess!
It is too bad because CES has been helpful to many people at times but they have IMHO taken too many uncharted roads that have destroyed their credibility like Momentus, hooking up with Da*e S*des,and a few others along the way and this, personal prophecies.
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oldiesman
Allan, thanks for sharing that. If folks who have been hurt ( and administering the hurt) would've followed Wierwilles advice in this instance, think of all the trouble that would've been avoided.
All the gossip, the evil surmisings, the meddlings in peoples lives, could all have been avoided.
It was all right there in PFAL :) (aka "mind your own business")
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GarthP2000
Well, either 1) Elizabeth have given her consent by allowing her letter to be posted on GS already, or 2) she doesn't know about the letter going public.
In any event, a lot more information about CES-turning-into-a-mental-institution is already in the public domain, so since that is the case, I say we help spread it.
Besides, how many CES participants, sponsors, friends, et al, know what's going on at their 'root locale', hmmm? I'd be willing to bet that this is very similar to the TWI twiggies NOT knowing what was going on at TWI HQ back during the 'fog years'. And I imagine that there were/are a lot of them who were grateful at finding out, thus enabling and emboldening them to leave.
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outofdafog
Sunesis - that is why I have reacted so strongly in this thread I guess.........My heart is just broken for this woman and I think she is just totally brave putting it all out there................I also thought and for lack of a better term "this prophecy council" sounded very devilish.........evil...........good lord, spiders coming out of peoples noses now....how could there be so much darkness in a place that claims they have such light..........and enlightenment.
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oldiesman
When folks know and believe who and what they are in Christ (a real foundational goodie of PFAL), they can't fall for all this crap.
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ex10
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mstar1
In alot of ways, first that KA would project her own shadow on to Elizabeth, blaming Elizabeth for dreams about her own self, her infantile and childish interpretations of her dreams and secondly that JAL would stand by and fall for such crap laid against his wife.
If individuals want to give credence to dreams then fine, many people, religions and cultures throughout history have--but they should learn at least a basic something about them before they use them to play with fire and destroy other peoples lives. Mountains of serious work about dream interpretation is available (Jung etc.) but if you are Mr or Miss KnowIt All I guess you can just bypass that
Dreams can be beneficial, but if you were to believe in such things, they are always about yourself, generally using images in your everyday life to give you and you alone symbolic insight into your own subconscious and shadow so that you can see your own areas of need.
Its really sick how childish these people are, and how they are willing to follow any new messiah of the hour while doing absolutely no homework on the subject, and sacrifice their own on the altar of their own egos
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Tom Strange
Oldies, please have a little heart and don't turn this thread into another one of your commercials for PFAL. CES/STFI is the offspring of TWI/PFAL so please just don't go there.
You can start another thread in this forum for that if you wish but please don't bog it down, or dillute it with your commercial.
YOU KNOW EXACTLY WHERE THAT WILL LEAD, IT'S WHY YOU DO IT AND IT'S WRONG.
So stop already. Please.
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joeoday
Galen,
I know the reason the Bible Lands videos were not produced was because of a lack of funds. I thinking you are over stating your role on that tour by a long shot. You were a participant and although you may have helped at times you did not go to carry lights etc. Let's stay honest here.
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joeoday
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ChasUFarley
I found pond/mj's post rather enlightening about how Mark blocked her email address when she asked him to address the issues that are being discussed on this board...
Whoops! Fells asleep for a moment and had a little dream...
It went something like this:
A baby in a diaper, but with Mark's adult head, starts trying to do damage control from his playpen...
Just kidding...
Seriously... $5 says that the one of the two anonymous readers on this thread right now is Mark and another $5 says the other anonymous reader is JAL. They say they want nothing to do with this board, but I bet my bippy that they've checked this out by now - gimme a break.
It's sad that CES has gone as far south as it has. It could have been a good thing. It could still be a good thing if they clean up their act and stop experimenting with the occult.
My impression, when I went to a meeting where JAL came to Manchester, NH (that was hosted by PJRoberge) was that he (JAL) didn't know how to take care of people at all. His teaching that night consisted of tangents and little fact or scripture. He never put his focus on the needs of the group or the area - just CERTAIN individuals. His interactions with others that night after the teaching consisted on "readings" or personal phrophsey and no interactiosn with people who didn't want that - i.e. he shunned them (me!).
Thanks, but no thanks.
Hubby continued to follow along with some of their stuff until about a year ago, but from a distance - THANK GOD!
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richnchrispy
This is the Rich half of the dynamic duo. Lots of good posts. I think much of the non-doctrinal problem with this ministry is again due to the underlying leadership paradigm that they believe and live. And I believe that much of this paradigm is one shared with the American Corporate world and with TWI.
It is the opposite of The Lord of the Rings written by Tolkien which had at its basis the theme that the little man could do something that would make a difference. American business, sports and TWI and many other ministries are based upon belief in the superstar.
Too many people I know both ex WAy and otherwise discount their worth because some "leader" somewhere discounted it and either belittled them outright or did it by ignoring them and talking up the superstar.
Prayer is certainly necessary but the longer some of these people remain in ignore and (damage) control mode the more it becomes apparent that some of them think they have done nothing wrong.
It will just go away eventually. Not everyone will read GS.
There have been backroom politics and what I believe to have been manipulation to gain control of this ministry and board going on for several years - which is why some have not been free to be as verbal as they have liked although they are leaders. Remember that satan is a deceiver and so this is not the first or last time that a leader would lie or be lied to. There are people now on board this train who did not listen several years ago when others blew the train whistle.
But get enough poo smeared on ya and one day ya wake up and realize you no longer smell like flowers.
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GarthP2000
Captain Crunch,
Did Elizabeth give you permission to post her material? Just curious.
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likeaneagle
I hope there are no kids on this board reading this..
I couldnt read it all.
THey should handle this on thier own and thier church,,but rumors spread fast and the dishearted who are distant need reasoning..Cyber space is probaly not the best way to handle this. jusy mhpo
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ChasUFarley
I hope it's okay to ask some questions here... (here I go...)
What's Elizabeth's background? (basically - like is she x-twi? way corps? widowed? etc.)
What's this "deliverance session? How's it set up or what's the procedure? How is this based on scripture?
Do they teach on grace, love, and forgiveness anymore? Or just this stuff?
(These are honest questions - not smart a$$'d - we're just trying to put this all together.)
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Ham
Too many words. Too me, it sounds like all so much prophetic "swill" from the third century or so.. I think they are grasping at straws.
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