I don't blame you for not wanting to talk to them. I think if I saw my former FC's and had to talk to them, I'd probably just tell them why I don't want to talk to them:
a. they backed up my abusive ex at every turn
b. they lined their pockets with other believer's slave labor
c. they constantly talked about people behind their backs
in short, not the kind of people I choose to associate with, and no I don't forgive them for it. they can ask God if they want forgiveness.
I completely understand where you're coming from. Once we've been hurt like that, it takes a whole lot to get past that hurt. I think you will have another chance to meet these folks and I hope it will be in the restaurant because you can just set that aside and take them as your brother's customers and chat on that level.
I could be wrong - but I wonder if they go to the restaurant because they know they will be welcomed as a customer.
My opinion is that twi people do not just to go to a restaurant for friendliness. . . If they are still in twi, they are either #1 counting the time as their [required] "witnessing" or #2 they are perhaps looking for a way out themselves.
If it was door #2, they would have had to do some private soul-searching, and realized some of the inhumanity of twi, and probably they would be sorry for the way they treated people previously. However, if someone was sorry for the way they treated you previously, they would have said so by now.
I have had a couple of post-twi encounters with people who had treated me hatefully, and one of the first, if not the first things they said was an apology.
If they haven't apologized yet, i would say it was door #1, and beware the veiled and hypocritical kind of kindness that is only a con.
Doubt that I could do more than smile a lukewarm smile and wave half heartedly if I saw my former HFC's. The way I was thrown out on my ear and described by words that included "treacherous" etc, etc. would make it difficult for me to not kick his foot.
My motto - "life's short, suffer now and avoid the rush later".
Just kidding. Really, IMO it's not that weird or immature or strange to expect some kind of acknowledgement for past actions. It's phoney for them to come back a couple years later and act like nothing happened. It's like the voice that says "we're all gone now".
What they're doing puts the onus, the burden, the pressure on you to bring it up, address it and frame the discussion. It potentially makes you "the bad guy" -
- for still remembering
- for not forgiving
- for having the "problem"
They sit back and take no responsibility for their actions and leave you to deal with it. That ain't right.
When someone acts weird or like a jerk and then comes back later happy and nice, that doesn't mean they're not a weird jerk waiting to happen again. Trust isn't hope. Hoping someone doesn't repeat themselves isn't the same as trusting them where there's mutual understanding. Sounds to me like nothing's understood.
My take - if these people had any ballz they'd suck it up and take the first opportunity to clear the air with you. After all, they're the "leaders", right? Now they're all friendly with your brother, and you. They thought he was worthless a few years ago, sounds like. Now he's cool. Because he manages a restaurant? That's shallow. Sleezey. I'm sure it's a heck of a restaurant but the food can't be that good.
Why get mixed up with people like that? You got out of the Way. You're money ahead at this point, you can keep what you value, toss what you don't. Get on with a good life. They're carrying the baggage, not you.
Or just give them a big hug and forget about it. I'd keep an eye on them still, though, if that's the course you choose. First sign of Wayfer Wierdness, put salt in their Sugar Dispenser.
P.S. If they're decent tippers your daughter should be as nice to them as any customer, but I'd remind her - they hurt her Dad. She doesn't have to spit in their food but geez, don't waste time on phoney people that smile at you today and rip you a new one tomorrow.
3. If you pretend it never happened, my conscience is cleared, and I can now pretend that my evil wasn't all THAT bad, because you are being so nice, you must still like me.
4. If you DON'T pretend that it never happened, boy, you are so mean to make me feel bad and ruin my benevolence. I bet I can find a Bible verse that says you should forgive me. I was right in the evil I did to you, you don't deserve my Christian niceness, you cold-hearted sunuva....
Gee, you think I've been the recipient of this line of thinking? You betcha.
I know how certain events can bring back emotions and hurt. But you always know you are welcome here and loved.. Twi can shove their stupid rules, they have no effect or place here. I hereby pronounce you unmarked and unavoided!
You all make a lot of sense. I will therefore temper my position.
However, just because somebody hurt you very badly, that does not give you the right to do the same. Avoid them and you won't have to deal with them. When you are at the restaurant, you are acting as your brother's agent, so you have to work within that framework if you're going to be ethical.
By just acknowledging their presence, you did no harm when you saw them. If that's all you are comfortable doing, that's fine...you don't have to do anything more. However if they try to engage you in conversation you have a choice...engage and be very careful....or don't. I would engage, carefully.
Put all the hurt in an sack in your mind and move it to a less prominent place in your thoughts for the time being. Engage as you would any customer...remembering that if you don't like the direction of the conversation you can always excuse yourself because you have work to do. Notice I didn't say "swallow it". Never.....never swallow it.
I know what I've suggested is not easy, but I also know it can be done because there were many times when I really did not want to deal with a student assigned to me...but I had to. I absolutely had to. There are times when students can and do hurt their teachers deeply, and as the "adult" I had to "get over it" in the context of teacher-student.
Meanwhile, I would operate with extreme caution keeping in mind what the other viewpoints discussed here say. They are all worth considering.
.....but you did ask for opinions.....so now you have mine - - though revised.
An additional word of caution -- leopards don't change their stripes. People don't change their hearts. Only Jesus Christ offers a heart-transplant option (I will take out their heart of stone and give them a heart of flesh), but along with that transplant operation comes humility, meekness, tears etc.
I, too, was specifically Marked and Avoided six years ago. But in the past year I have had folks who are still active around town acting like nothing happened. I've even been encouraged to initiate contact with some old friends at HQ.
My response is much like yours... excuse me, I am not the one who turned my back on them. If they want to be so friendly all of a sudden they can start by approaching me with a sincere and heartfelt apology!! Nothing less is acceptible. Period.
How typical of the abusers to turn things around and make it seem like you are shunning them if you don't act like nothing happened. My advice: be willing to forgive if forgiveness is asked for, but otherwise don't fall for their act; don't give in!
I, too, was specifically Marked and Avoided six years ago. But in the past year I have had folks who are still active around town acting like nothing happened. I've even been encouraged to initiate contact with some old friends at HQ.
My response is much like yours... excuse me, I am not the one who turned my back on them. If they want to be so friendly all of a sudden they can start by approaching me with a sincere and heartfelt apology!! Nothing less is acceptible. Period.
How typical of the abusers to turn things around and make it seem like you are shunning them if you don't act like nothing happened. My advice: be willing to forgive if forgiveness is asked for, but otherwise don't fall for their act; don't give in!
If they don't show any remorse for their past misdeeds, it's clear they think they were justified
This thread and reading Oakspear's story (over in "My story" forum) reminded me agin how thankful I am for the Greasespot Cafe (and WayDale before it).
Without these places to learn other peoples' stories (so I don't think I alone am a loser), I could see myself groveling back to twi.
Thank you all for your insights...........I guess what really gets me is that my brother and them are like all this friendly friendly crap to each other and I am just sitting there, like what in the world is going on. Actually I was quite shocked when some jealousy pangs went through my heart (where did that come from) and who was I jealous of. I guess I was just really suprised at my own reaction 6 years later. When I saw them that night I had just finished a catering and was sitting at a table alone waiting for brother to pay me, and it would have been quite easy for one of them (the former HFC or his wife) to come over and initiate something. Yes, like an apology..........
My brother just kinda blows it off, apparently they are regulars there now, because he always thought the mark and avoid junk was just so stupid, but I guess when you are emotionally invested into something, your reaction will be a little different.
The real funny part is that I have no desire whatsoever to even engage them in conversation (an apology might be nice) nor do I have any desire to build any type of relationship with them. So why are my feelings so mixed up? Lotsa good insight here............
My brother just kinda blows it off, apparently they are regulars there now, because he always thought the mark and avoid junk was just so stupid, but I guess when you are emotionally invested into something, your reaction will be a little different.
I hope your brother can understand it's not stupid to you. if he's shrugging off your feelings because they're so "nice", then you've got things to sort out with your brother. bottom line is, you have had a relationship with these people, they proved themselves to be not of the character you want in friends, you don't have to be nice to them. you can treat them like any other customer... let them sit where they sit, don't go talk to them. you're not their server, so you're under no obligation to acknowledge them beyond saying "excuse me, I'm sorry" if they're in your way or if you bump into them.
jealousy pangs are understandable. sounds like there was some conditioning there to seek their approval... a lot like a dysfunctional family. leaders molded and shaped ("raised up") people to be what they wanted, and we craved their approval and praise because then we'd know we're godly people... actually, makes us sound more like dogs.
"The real funny part is that I have no desire whatsoever to even engage them in conversation (an apology might be nice) nor do I have any desire to build any type of relationship with them. So why are my feelings so mixed up?....."
That's exactly how I feel. I really have little or no interest in building a friendship with some of these folks!! So why do I feel nostaligic as well as angry every time I encounter them? How can you feel both at the same time?
I think the pangs of jealousy are about wishing things didn't turn out the way they did. Wouldn't it have been nice if twi was really what we all thought it was? And the people in it were all good-hearted folks wanting the best for your life as well as theirs?
At the same time, an apology would validate what we went through... it would just be so nice if some of these folks could admit they did something wrong and that it caused negative consequences to our lives. (sometimes devestating ones) We were just "blown off" after everything we invested, and it is very hard to reconcile being treated that way.
I've said it before, and I'll say it again here... it is all about dealing with loss. We lost our innocence, our hopes, and a chunk of time in our lives. We lost the potential that this loss represents--- what could we have accomplished if that fresh youthful attitude had found a genuine outlet? Sometimes it is just hard to deal with.
We have the right to feel our feelings. In TWI we were supposed to "renew our minds" to any emotions that didn't jive with what our leaders thought we SHOULD be feeling.
Why did God create us with emotions if we're not supposed to feel them?
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potato
I don't blame you for not wanting to talk to them. I think if I saw my former FC's and had to talk to them, I'd probably just tell them why I don't want to talk to them:
a. they backed up my abusive ex at every turn
b. they lined their pockets with other believer's slave labor
c. they constantly talked about people behind their backs
in short, not the kind of people I choose to associate with, and no I don't forgive them for it. they can ask God if they want forgiveness.
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krys
I completely understand where you're coming from. Once we've been hurt like that, it takes a whole lot to get past that hurt. I think you will have another chance to meet these folks and I hope it will be in the restaurant because you can just set that aside and take them as your brother's customers and chat on that level.
I could be wrong - but I wonder if they go to the restaurant because they know they will be welcomed as a customer.
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Kit Sober
My opinion is that twi people do not just to go to a restaurant for friendliness. . . If they are still in twi, they are either #1 counting the time as their [required] "witnessing" or #2 they are perhaps looking for a way out themselves.
If it was door #2, they would have had to do some private soul-searching, and realized some of the inhumanity of twi, and probably they would be sorry for the way they treated people previously. However, if someone was sorry for the way they treated you previously, they would have said so by now.
I have had a couple of post-twi encounters with people who had treated me hatefully, and one of the first, if not the first things they said was an apology.
If they haven't apologized yet, i would say it was door #1, and beware the veiled and hypocritical kind of kindness that is only a con.
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Oakspear
Doubt that I could do more than smile a lukewarm smile and wave half heartedly if I saw my former HFC's. The way I was thrown out on my ear and described by words that included "treacherous" etc, etc. would make it difficult for me to not kick his foot.
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socks
My motto - "life's short, suffer now and avoid the rush later".
Just kidding. Really, IMO it's not that weird or immature or strange to expect some kind of acknowledgement for past actions. It's phoney for them to come back a couple years later and act like nothing happened. It's like the voice that says "we're all gone now".
What they're doing puts the onus, the burden, the pressure on you to bring it up, address it and frame the discussion. It potentially makes you "the bad guy" -
- for still remembering
- for not forgiving
- for having the "problem"
They sit back and take no responsibility for their actions and leave you to deal with it. That ain't right.
When someone acts weird or like a jerk and then comes back later happy and nice, that doesn't mean they're not a weird jerk waiting to happen again. Trust isn't hope. Hoping someone doesn't repeat themselves isn't the same as trusting them where there's mutual understanding. Sounds to me like nothing's understood.
My take - if these people had any ballz they'd suck it up and take the first opportunity to clear the air with you. After all, they're the "leaders", right? Now they're all friendly with your brother, and you. They thought he was worthless a few years ago, sounds like. Now he's cool. Because he manages a restaurant? That's shallow. Sleezey. I'm sure it's a heck of a restaurant but the food can't be that good.
Why get mixed up with people like that? You got out of the Way. You're money ahead at this point, you can keep what you value, toss what you don't. Get on with a good life. They're carrying the baggage, not you.
Or just give them a big hug and forget about it. I'd keep an eye on them still, though, if that's the course you choose. First sign of Wayfer Wierdness, put salt in their Sugar Dispenser.
P.S. If they're decent tippers your daughter should be as nice to them as any customer, but I'd remind her - they hurt her Dad. She doesn't have to spit in their food but geez, don't waste time on phoney people that smile at you today and rip you a new one tomorrow.
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excathedra
just give them the finger next time
ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha haLink to comment
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shazdancer
Ooh, thanks for that, socks!
Way leader is saying:
1. I'm gonna pretend it never happened.
2. You have to pretend it never happened, too.
3. If you pretend it never happened, my conscience is cleared, and I can now pretend that my evil wasn't all THAT bad, because you are being so nice, you must still like me.
4. If you DON'T pretend that it never happened, boy, you are so mean to make me feel bad and ruin my benevolence. I bet I can find a Bible verse that says you should forgive me. I was right in the evil I did to you, you don't deserve my Christian niceness, you cold-hearted sunuva....
Gee, you think I've been the recipient of this line of thinking? You betcha.
:D
Shaz
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polar bear
I know how certain events can bring back emotions and hurt. But you always know you are welcome here and loved.. Twi can shove their stupid rules, they have no effect or place here. I hereby pronounce you unmarked and unavoided!
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GrouchoMarxJr
I second the motion...if you say ANYTHING to them, tell them to blow it out their a$$.
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krys
You all make a lot of sense. I will therefore temper my position.
However, just because somebody hurt you very badly, that does not give you the right to do the same. Avoid them and you won't have to deal with them. When you are at the restaurant, you are acting as your brother's agent, so you have to work within that framework if you're going to be ethical.
By just acknowledging their presence, you did no harm when you saw them. If that's all you are comfortable doing, that's fine...you don't have to do anything more. However if they try to engage you in conversation you have a choice...engage and be very careful....or don't. I would engage, carefully.
Put all the hurt in an sack in your mind and move it to a less prominent place in your thoughts for the time being. Engage as you would any customer...remembering that if you don't like the direction of the conversation you can always excuse yourself because you have work to do. Notice I didn't say "swallow it". Never.....never swallow it.
I know what I've suggested is not easy, but I also know it can be done because there were many times when I really did not want to deal with a student assigned to me...but I had to. I absolutely had to. There are times when students can and do hurt their teachers deeply, and as the "adult" I had to "get over it" in the context of teacher-student.
Meanwhile, I would operate with extreme caution keeping in mind what the other viewpoints discussed here say. They are all worth considering.
.....but you did ask for opinions.....so now you have mine - - though revised.
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Kit Sober
I agree with almost all of the stuff said here.
An additional word of caution -- leopards don't change their stripes. People don't change their hearts. Only Jesus Christ offers a heart-transplant option (I will take out their heart of stone and give them a heart of flesh), but along with that transplant operation comes humility, meekness, tears etc.
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coolchef
if they came into my resteraunt i would mark and avoid them from there
the easy way to do it? say "woops, i am sooo sooory " then spill hot coffee on thier lap.
bitter son of a gun here. dosen't show does it!lol
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potato
<mature>
coolchef... lawsuit :(
</mature>
<immature>
ice cold water, though...
</immature>
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Eagle
Good Lord, exie...
Give them the finger? I'd hate to get on your bad side...don't know which end of the planet I would land on.
Eagle
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TheHighWay
I, too, was specifically Marked and Avoided six years ago. But in the past year I have had folks who are still active around town acting like nothing happened. I've even been encouraged to initiate contact with some old friends at HQ.
My response is much like yours... excuse me, I am not the one who turned my back on them. If they want to be so friendly all of a sudden they can start by approaching me with a sincere and heartfelt apology!! Nothing less is acceptible. Period.
How typical of the abusers to turn things around and make it seem like you are shunning them if you don't act like nothing happened. My advice: be willing to forgive if forgiveness is asked for, but otherwise don't fall for their act; don't give in!
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WordWolf
If they don't show any remorse for their past misdeeds, it's clear they think they were justified
in doing them. That says a lot.
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Kit Sober
This thread and reading Oakspear's story (over in "My story" forum) reminded me agin how thankful I am for the Greasespot Cafe (and WayDale before it).
Without these places to learn other peoples' stories (so I don't think I alone am a loser), I could see myself groveling back to twi.
Thank you thank you thank Pawtucket et al.
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sogwap51
They probably are looking for a discount on food, nothing more.
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SafariVista
Sogwap... that's what I was thinking too... they MUST be getting something there they can't in another place...
Not apologizing for their actions also speaks loudly... thinking they're still right?
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outofdafog
Thank you all for your insights...........I guess what really gets me is that my brother and them are like all this friendly friendly crap to each other and I am just sitting there, like what in the world is going on. Actually I was quite shocked when some jealousy pangs went through my heart (where did that come from) and who was I jealous of. I guess I was just really suprised at my own reaction 6 years later. When I saw them that night I had just finished a catering and was sitting at a table alone waiting for brother to pay me, and it would have been quite easy for one of them (the former HFC or his wife) to come over and initiate something. Yes, like an apology..........
My brother just kinda blows it off, apparently they are regulars there now, because he always thought the mark and avoid junk was just so stupid, but I guess when you are emotionally invested into something, your reaction will be a little different.
The real funny part is that I have no desire whatsoever to even engage them in conversation (an apology might be nice) nor do I have any desire to build any type of relationship with them. So why are my feelings so mixed up? Lotsa good insight here............
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Kit Sober
Dear outofdafog,
Hope you will let us know what are the shape of the stripes so to speak when they become visible.
1. Are these guys just looking for cheap food.
2. Are they just trying to lure you back into the twi web?
3. A combination of 1 and 2?
4. Are they really sorry for the way they treated you and looking for a way to give a heartfelt apology?
5. Along with 4, are they looking for life outside of twi?
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potato
I hope your brother can understand it's not stupid to you. if he's shrugging off your feelings because they're so "nice", then you've got things to sort out with your brother. bottom line is, you have had a relationship with these people, they proved themselves to be not of the character you want in friends, you don't have to be nice to them. you can treat them like any other customer... let them sit where they sit, don't go talk to them. you're not their server, so you're under no obligation to acknowledge them beyond saying "excuse me, I'm sorry" if they're in your way or if you bump into them.
jealousy pangs are understandable. sounds like there was some conditioning there to seek their approval... a lot like a dysfunctional family. leaders molded and shaped ("raised up") people to be what they wanted, and we craved their approval and praise because then we'd know we're godly people... actually, makes us sound more like dogs.
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TheHighWay
QUOTE:
"The real funny part is that I have no desire whatsoever to even engage them in conversation (an apology might be nice) nor do I have any desire to build any type of relationship with them. So why are my feelings so mixed up?....."
That's exactly how I feel. I really have little or no interest in building a friendship with some of these folks!! So why do I feel nostaligic as well as angry every time I encounter them? How can you feel both at the same time?
I think the pangs of jealousy are about wishing things didn't turn out the way they did. Wouldn't it have been nice if twi was really what we all thought it was? And the people in it were all good-hearted folks wanting the best for your life as well as theirs?
At the same time, an apology would validate what we went through... it would just be so nice if some of these folks could admit they did something wrong and that it caused negative consequences to our lives. (sometimes devestating ones) We were just "blown off" after everything we invested, and it is very hard to reconcile being treated that way.
I've said it before, and I'll say it again here... it is all about dealing with loss. We lost our innocence, our hopes, and a chunk of time in our lives. We lost the potential that this loss represents--- what could we have accomplished if that fresh youthful attitude had found a genuine outlet? Sometimes it is just hard to deal with.
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outandabout
I understand why you feel that way.
We have the right to feel our feelings. In TWI we were supposed to "renew our minds" to any emotions that didn't jive with what our leaders thought we SHOULD be feeling.
Why did God create us with emotions if we're not supposed to feel them?
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