And ya know, I am thankful that I still have that mindset, that God's promises will keep me, my wife, and my kids healthy. Oh, my wife is insured with the company she works for, and so am I (health that is), but so far, thanks be to the Almighty and his Word, we have escaped the many calamities that are out there. Just thankful, that's all. I hope this doesn't upset anyone, but I learned this in The Way, and I am really really thankful for what I learned on that count. Since then I have seen the same things preached by many other Christian teachers as well. But for me, it started in The Way, and for that I am thankful.
I can see great value in life insurance. in a way it's like a high-risk long-term investment for me. my ex is court-ordered to carry it. my great hope is one day I'll wake up to the news he's considerately terminated his life by way of some freak accident and I'll finally, by way of his policy, have money to raise my kids with and pay off the debt he stuck me with.
I also would like to have a policy of my own so that if I kick off unexpectedly, my sister can put it in trust for my kids' college. if I'm around to sue my ex for his share, they'll get to go. if not, life insurance will take care of it for them.
Your experience with poor pastoring I can identify with. Bad pastors are all over the place and many of them just preach dirt poor doctrine, a judgmental type of Christianity. When I married my wife I got two stepsons who were already grown and on their own. One was slow intellectually, the other was not but both were incredibly irresponsible, having kids out of wedlock, going in and out of jail, ruining jobs they were on and destroying my wife physically, mentally, and the two of us financially. When I took over I did cut out any support to them because all it did was help them continue in their mess. They began to straighten up a little, but still were pretty bad, getting into fights in town, more jail, bad driving records. Worse, when I cut the support to them, and they got traffic tickets and lost jobs, the real father of the kids would pick up and continue the support of the two of them, paying all their traffic costs, tickets, insurance, until he went broke.
We asked for prayer in this situation from a pastor bt email, who did not reply to the email. We then went to a splinter group fellowship where he attended and we asked the group for prayer of these two, and the pastor got up as prayer began and went into the other room, refusing to take part in the prayer. I believe some pastors who think that misbehaving people deserve what they get and do not deserve prayer. But at least the rest prayed. We decided to dump the pastor. You can do that - fire your pastor. Go somewhere else. Fire him or her just like a lawyer, or change doctors, things like that.
Here is what happened after that.
The slow one, (mentally retarded) was with a group of derelicts who were driving in cold January morning when one of the derelicts told my slow son to get in the back seat so he could drink with the driver in the front seat. They went traveling, swerved off a road and hit a telephone pole. The one who took my son's place was killed instantly, and in fact, nearly decapitated. The driver survived but as a partial cripple, his legs pinned under the dashboard with the car turned up and around the telephone pole. Worse, the driver had AIDs and was bleeding in the car. My son ended up going through a side window and his body was supported by the window and we was above the driver with AIDs. My son got off the easiest, with eight broken ribs, burns to his back and some lacerations and was taken out unconscious. All of them were tested for alcohol content including the dead one. The two up front were found to be far above the legal limit for alcohol while my son registered - zero - no alcohol. He was taken to the hospital, life-flighted, and we prayed again. While he was there, we had him tested for the AIDs virus and he was negative, but we had to repeat the tests several times over several months and he was finally declared negative for sure, or never exposed. The car had been drenched in blood, but we think it was from the front passenger side derelict (sorry, but you had to know these punks) after almost being decapitated. My son, I thought, thinking back, had been fortunate that he was not on the bottom of the wreck where the driver with AIDs could bleed onto his open wounds, but rather my son was on top, bleeding on the driver.
It took one more year but as slow as he was, realized that these "friends" of his were using him because he was slow, and decided to cut it off with them. With prayer and a little help, he accepted Christ. He believed God must have saved him despite his bad behavior. We later tried to get him working but he kept losing jobs for being too slow. He is on SSDI and SSI disability now, but my wife and I are planning a business where we can employ him, because no one else will. He got married and his wife was almost as lsow as he was but she didn't look it. She was very beautiful. Her story was that her family put her out in the street at 16 years old because they didn't want to deal with her. Social services took care of her, but she and Scott met and have married and now have a normal child. They are good parents. He laments now because no one lets him work (for very long). My wife and I check in on them a lot.
The other son continued to be a problem but is reaping the consequences of his actions from the past. Because he has not really come to God yet, we continue to pray for him. His life gets better with some help, but I refuse to give him anything unless he really needs something and only do it once. One day he called up asking about church. He talked to my wife for a while.
We had prayed for other things, too, in our neighborhood. We had three houses surrounding us that were filled with young people partying several times a week into the morning hours. Calling the police didn't help much. Talking with them personally didn't help much. After two years of prayer on this, something extraordinary happened. The three houses all went up for sale and sold, all within about three weeks of each other, and were replaced with much better neighbors.
I believe Coolwaters did the right thing going to the hospital that night and calling the pastors later. It is okay to ask God first for the healing, but if believing hinges on such perfectness, then we better take the trip to the hsopital praying along the way. If the person heals, then great! If not, then medical help is there.
We have seen miracles in our lives with consistent prayer. We still pray for both sons.
Last week the son that had not accepted Christ yet (as far as we know), was in an accident totaling his company vehicle. It was hit by a man going through a red light. He was not injured despite the seriousness of the accident. I was in a car in traffic and fell asleep at the wheel last week. The car braked at the intersection at a red light and woke me up, but not my wife. My foot was on the brake but I didn't remember putting it there. I told my wife just last night about that and she laughed. I thought she would be mad. But she also said if I was tired anymore to just pull in somewhere and sleep in the car.
Good advice.
I still believe God wants to heal us, even now. I am still trying to figure out what it takes to get there.
I would simply revert to what I knew worked for me and shared that with others, while trying not to condemn myself for not "being up on the latest heavy teachings" ....
I just now read your post JL. Somehow I missed it when I posted before. Hmmm...what you stated is what I ended up doing many a time. It was as you stated "confusing," so I'd go back to what was working for ME.
Thanks JL, your whole post(s): well and succinctly stated. :)
i am so anxious to read all of these after my kids go to bed...my son is going to get a skin graft on tuesday...which i am happy about, his burn is painful and raw...what is the significance of heb 11:1 to wayfers? let me know...its getting heated around here..
Motherof2-----Here is what I remember from my days as a "wayfer". The teachings in TWI on Hebrews 11:1 stated that when one reads the word "faith" in Hebrews, it is to be interpreted as "believing". The reasoning for this is that they(TWI) taught that "faith" did not exist until the new birth became available. It all fell under a large umbrella of scripture that was used to validate the "law of believing". There is an old adage that states"seeing is believing". TWI used Heb. 11:1 and many other scriptures to turn that expression backwards so that it became"believe first and then you will see (the fruit of your believing)."Now, going one step further," you must take action on your believing before you will see results." There is, of course, some truth in this thinking. For example: You may need/want a better job. You send out resumes, interview with perpective employers and take various other actions associated with the job seeking process. Your "believing action" pays off and finally you see the result manifest itself as a new job. Now depending on where and when you were taught these things they would sometimes be twisted and contorted to take on a sort of "wishing things into existance" type of thinking. The problem that enters here is that simply wishing something is going to happen and picturing it happening do not make it actually happen. So, the axiom of "believing is seeing " is at its' root level a fallacy.
This is where (imo) this concept of believing your way through the problems that life throws at you originated.
It even got to a point where it was unacceptible to call a problem just that: a "problem." We called them "opportunities" because it implied that it was merely an "opportunity" to believe for a positive outcome. Along with this was the idea of "positive and negative confession". (Both outloud and in your thinking) because according to the catch phrase:"what you are confessing, you are possesing". This stuff can get quite convoluted and the mind has a tendency to want to rationalize things that logic tells you are nonsence. Sorry I rambled on. I don't know any quick way to get to the heart of what Hebrews chap. 11 supposedly was teaching us. That is not to say that there are not great truths in this section of scripture. I just don't believe(imo) that it can be used to prove the existance of some sort of magical "law of believing".
1NOW FAITH is the assurance (the confirmation, [a]the title deed) of the things [we] hope for, being the proof of things [we] do not see and the conviction of their reality [faith perceiving as real fact what is not revealed to the senses].
2For by [faith--trust and holy fervor born of faith] the men of old had divine testimony borne to them and obtained a good report.
3By faith we understand that the worlds [during the successive ages] were framed (fashioned, put in order, and equipped for their intended purpose) by the word of God, so that what we see was not made out of things which are visible.
all the people in between... then
39And all of these, though they won divine approval by [means of] their faith, did not receive the fulfillment of what was promised,
40Because God had us in mind and had something better and greater in view for us, so that they [these heroes and heroines of faith] should not come to perfection apart from us [before we could join them].
it's beautiful. it's not a magic gift card. we don't see God but we believe and that belief (or faith) gives us strength to carry on and live for him when we can't prove he exists. it gives us strength to do great things (in God's sight, not men's)
You'll have exactly what you say you have. Believing is not governed by what others say, but in and by what you say. It doesn't matter one iota what others have to say to it, but by what you say to it. That is the law of believing.
You'll have exactly what you say you have. Believing is not governed by what others say, but in and by what you say. It doesn't matter one iota what others have to say to it, but by what you say to it. That is the law of believing.
In other words, WTH's trying to sell you on the "LAW of Believing" again.
You'll have exactly what you say you have. Believing is not governed by what others say, but in and by what you say. It doesn't matter one iota what others have to say to it, but by what you say to it. That is the law of believing.
It doesn't matter one iota what reason, experience or Scripture will tell you – TWI's "law of believing" is one of their best kept secrets on self-hypnosis…it may be helpful to paraphrase their formula so as to reveal the actual governing principle of this "law": believing equals perceiving. If you believe TWI's magical-gobbledygook-explanation of what's controlling reality…then that is what you will perceive as controlling reality!...It would do any serious Christian a lot of good to taketo heart Oakspear's advice in post # 48: "…it's not "waybrained" to hold fast to what you have seen and experienced. A good case of waybrain is usually characterized by clinging to Way doctrine that isn't supportable by either experience or the bible…"
I think TWI had another key on how THEY interpret the Bible…this is one not published in any TWI books or classes and is the evil-twin of Scripture build-up…it's called Scripture cover-up. And it works like this…TWI selectively stockpiles verses by yanking them out of context and/or omitting any specificity, moral honesty, submissiveness to God's will or limitations implied in the verse or context. And that's only half the cover-up! The other half is to ignore any passage that runs counter to TWI's teaching on the subject…
Running counter to What the Hey's and TWI's idea that you'll have exactly what you say you have is an admonition written in the book of James.
James 4:13-17
13 Now listen, you who say, "Today or tomorrow we will go to this or that city, spend a year there, carry on business and make money." 14 Why, you do not even know what will happen tomorrow. What is your life? You are a mist that appears for a little while and then vanishes. 15 Instead, you ought to say, "If it is the Lord's will, we will live and do this or that." 16 As it is, you boast and brag. All such boasting is evil. 17 Anyone, then, who knows the good he ought to do and doesn't do it, sins.
If WTH had simply put "---------" around all but the phrase "That is the law of believing" and then stated "That is the law of believing", it would give an entirely different meaning to the post. It would then be simply a statement of description rather than a personal defense of the premise. I have no idea if that was WTHs' intent. Perhaps WTH can rejoin the discussion and clarify that point.
...Now, i believe james 5:16...the effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much...so i believe in the power of prayer..but what do you say to the Godly person who prays and prays and things still dont go the way they asked? do TWI people think it is their fault?
In regards to your TWI questions, some of my post # 60 addresses TWI's wishful thinking doctrine…and any followers who manifest evidence to the contrary of this imaginary-genie-in-a-Bible formula [for example something bad happens] are condemned for violating one or more of the gazillion rules in this mind-game: rule # 4,787,259 = perhaps you didn't rub the Bible exactly three times – you have to do that or the genie won't come out…rule # 4,787,260 = perhaps you were murmuring against the genie or complaining about the genie holding out on you…
As a Christian I also believe in the power of prayer. I like WordWolf pointing out in his post # 39 TWI's playing more of their mind-game tricks – dubbing any medical treatment –even an aspirin – as "third aid." Thinking back now on our stint in the Family Corps it saddens me to recall the needless suffering, discomfort and mental anguish TWI subjected people to – all for the sake of the integrity of their doctrine. I remember the third aid administrator heaping the guilt-trip on us over our wanting to give our kid an antibiotic – "Well, if you want to put those chemicals in your child…" said with such disdain as if we wanted to give our kid a glass of paint thinner.
I think the context of James 5:16 may imply that pray is to be utilized in conjunction with medical treatment - - and that there is a moral aspect and humbling perspective to our prayer life.
James 5:14-18
14 Is any one of you sick? He should call the elders of the church to pray over him and anoint him with oil in the name of the Lord. 15 And the prayer offered in faith will make the sick person well; the Lord will raise him up. If he has sinned, he will be forgiven. 16 Therefore confess your sins to each other and pray for each other so that you may be healed. The prayer of a righteous man is powerful and effective.
17 Elijah was a man just like us. He prayed earnestly that it would not rain, and it did not rain on the land for three and a half years. 18 Again he prayed, and the heavens gave rain, and the earth produced its crops.
Some interpret the anointing of oil as a reference to ceremonial anointing; some take it in a metaphorical sense of the elders' comforting the believer; and some [myself for one] thinks James had medical treatment in mind - in other words our prayer of faith is used in conjunction with medical treatment.
The thing that also intrigues me about this passage is the moral aspect with references like "If he has sinned, he will be forgiven…confess your sins…The prayer of a righteous man…" "If he has sinned" in verse 15 uses hamartia in Greek and according to Expository Dictionary of Bible Words edited by Stephen Renn is the Greek dynamic equivalent for the Old Testament Hebrew word for hattat and refers to the general sense of violating God's law, failing to meet God's revealed moral, ethical and ritual standards. "…confess your sins…" in verse 16 is from the Greek word paraptoma and Renn's Expository Dictionary says it's a dynamic equivalent for the Old Testament Hebrew word pesha with the dominant sense of transgression, trespass, rebellion, sin or offense and can refer to an offense against God or people.
What does all this sin stuff have to do with effective prayer? In my opinion…plenty – after coming out of TWI-land! It speaks to my attitude in prayer – it reminds me be humble and accept a Christian reality – I am a sinner…And yes God does hear sinners…good thing or I'd be s.o.l. many times – but what I see in this passage as in many other sections about prayer is the submissiveness we are to have towards God. I no longer see prayer as dropping off my wish list at His throne and saying "guess I don't have to tell yah how important it is to handle these items quickly" as I hurriedly head out of the throne room. Or that I have some right to demand these things from Him…Or that I am sin-free and deserve any of this stuff…More and more I see prayer as part of my ongoing relationship with God – a communing with Him. I'm not telling Him what to do. I'm acknowledging I'm powerless, a sinner…and asking for His help in the situation – and submitting to whatever way He sees fit to handle things. That reminds me of Paul's predicament in II Corinthians:
II Corinthians 12:7-10
7 To keep me from becoming conceited because of these surpassingly great revelations, there was given me a thorn in my flesh, a messenger of Satan, to torment me. 8 Three times I pleaded with the Lord to take it away from me. 9 But he said to me, "My grace is sufficient for you, for my power is made perfect in weakness." Therefore I will boast all the more gladly about my weaknesses, so that Christ's power may rest on me. 10 That is why, for Christ's sake, I delight in weaknesses, in insults, in hardships, in persecutions, in difficulties. For when I am weak, then I am strong.
I believe God always answers prayer – but the answer is not always what we think it should be. As in Paul's case. Paul thought "God, just take my problem away." However, God did not do that – instead He provided Paul with grace and power to handle the problem.
t-bone...awesome work on interpretation there..i could not agree more!! i think it is so important to consider context when you are interpreting scripture..great points!
My memories of teachings about healing in the Way was that it was God who was responsible for all healing. They taught that was God who put in our bodies it’s ability to heal itself. So if you went to someone for prayer or to a doctor it was still God who got the glory for your healing.
I will admit I knew people who felt like they were second rate believers because they had to go to a doctor for a physical problems. However I have been an eyewitness to many people’s miraculous healings. I left the Way 10 years ago and have been to several churches. I have yet to see the healing that I saw in the 70’s and 80’s. It is kind of funny, as the Way got more legalistic in the 90’s it seemed that fewer people got delivered from physical problems.
E. W. Bullinger
P. S. I am not just talking about people who were healed from a cold or a headache. I have known people who had physical deformity or disability and were delivered at Way functions.
I was healed from a physical infirmity at my first RoA. it was before leadership got their claws into me and sucked the life out of me, when my only experience was my original wow family and then a twig that had a lot of love for God. no one ministered to me, I asked God what was wrong with me and he told me!
I do believe in healings and I will never pretend to understand why some are miraculous and some don't appear to be, or why some that I think should happen, don't.
i couldnt agree more..miraculous healings can and do happen!! i had a friend whos cancer mysteriously disappeared from all x-rays not too long ago after he was annointed with oil and prayed for at church with hundreds of people layed hands on him. but i also believe that dr's can help too and that God doesnt always do healing instantly like that. as far as certain people having the "power" or "gift"...im not sold on that..i believe God will use anyone to accomplish His will. Why certain people are healed or arent healed well i posted on that not too long ago..that my belief is that God is not here for us..we are here for Him..for His glory..for His pleasure and His first objective is to glorify Himself and He does everything He does to honor Himself and only He knows how He will get the most glory. and the other side is this...we live in a fallen world with sickness, injuries, etc..and crap just happens..i dont think He pulls strings up there either..i think a lot of time He just lets the chips fall where they may!
I just can't get behind such a mercenary picture of God. I truly believe the verse that says God is Love, and a God who is out solely to garner glory to himself doesn't paint a picture of Love.
I don't know near as much about healing as I used to, but there was a definite change in the air after LCM took hold. One of the biggest thrills of my WOW year (1974-75) was sitting a girl down who had a migraine and praying for her in the Name of Jesus Christ and her headache was gone just like THAT! Later, my WOW coordinator, on her interim year with the 4th WC, reproved me for ministering to her because I was not an Advanced Class grad. I pointed out none of the apostles were either, but Jesus said to heal people in His Name and there ya go.
So maybe a clue is there somewhere. Could it be that TWI thought it learned so much about healing that it obfuscated the simple truths Jesus taught?
My first several years "in" we prayed for each other all the time, and cool things happened.
However, in 1994, when I was in a hospital during the ROA having just been diagnosed withi nsulin dependent diabetes, at least a dozen TWI'ers came to see me, some of whom I'd known for years. How many do you think offered to pray for me? ZERO. How many do you think encouraged me and said positive things and reminded me that God's will was for me to have perfect health? None. Not one.
the atmosphere had changed such that I was suspect. If something was wrong with me, it was because I had done something wrong.
This is false thinking.
I can't really explain this much and I've gotta vacuum. But maybe that's a start.
Your starting this thread has got me to think a lot about the deliverance I have seen in people’s lives. I agree with Potato. Your thinking behind why God heals some people and not others for His glory is a bit difficult to follow.
I have to tell you that while I do think that there are some scriptural problems with they Way’s doctrine of believing, your explanation that God sometimes “lets the chips fall where they may” seems to be a rehashing of a pagan Greek mythology. The ancient Greeks explained the randomness that they saw in life with the Fates. These were three spinners with one who made the thread, the second wove it and the third cut it with her shears. So if you had a child with a deformity it was because the spinner made the tread of their life that way. If someone seemed to catch a lot of breaks in life it was because the weaver made the fabric of your life that way. Lastly if someone died prematurely it was because the scissors of last Fate cut your life short. You could pray to these gals, but they rarely changed their minds about your lot in life.
So perhaps Mother of 2 I did not understand your explanation. Could you please give try to explain it again. I can not ask the people that I go to church with this question. They already think that I have a lot of crackpot theories and to bring this up would open another can of worms.
Motherof2-----------One of the concepts I think TWI may have gotten right(at least in the early days) was that God does not "use" us in a manner that would violate our freewill. This is one of those things that became deeply imbedded in the subconscious thinking of TWI followers. When the term is used, it sends up an automatic "red flag" that goes beyond cognizant awareness.That's how mind control works. There are many phrases and buzz words that have that kind of effect. There are some threads here that speak specifically to that subject. The closest thing I know to describe it is the Hollywood version of someone being hypnotised to feel like their skin itches every time someone says he word "duck". Of course, that's not really how hypnosis works, but that is the image we have come to accept from the entertainment media. My point is that in using that phrasing, it will probably trigger a response from ex-TWIers that even they don't understand.
Having read your previous posts, I feel pretty confident you did not mean it in that manner or that you knew you would trigger a programmed response.( I'm only speaking of my own response which I am starting to recognize as being deep rooted) Of course, once one realizes this is happening,it become much easier to respond to it in a logical rather than automatic manner.
Like you, I believe God should always get the glory for healings even though we may be an active part in the process either though prayer, ministering healing or intervening by providing medical attention.
I probably didn't explain that very well but I think I saw from the gist of your post that your heart was for God to get the Glory. That's an honorable stance to take. (Just my opinion.) :) edited for spelling.
Hey, Waysider, maybe that's why the healings sort of trailed off in the later years - God wasn't getting the glory. I was so stunned that NO ONE offered to pray with me when I was in St. Mary's Hospital. Some even seemed embarrassed, as if they really shouldn't have come to see me at all.
Back in WA, I asked B*****A L***Y what I could do to get healed. She said to read the Word and take my medicine until it made me sick. She made it pretty clear that no one was going to pray for me, minister healing to me, and "if it was to me it was up to me."
Like you, I believe God should always get the glory for healings even though we may be an active part in the process either though prayer, ministering healing or intervening by providing medical attention.
I probably didn't explain that very well but I think I saw from the gist of your post that your heart was for God to get the Glory. That's an honorable stance to take. (Just my opinion.) :) edited for spelling.
gotta jump in, waysider, cuz I was the one who started with the objection to God's motives as stated by motherof2
I didn't take exception to the word "use", actually... it was this statement:
"His first objective is to glorify Himself and He does everything He does to honor Himself and only He knows how He will get the most glory."
I do agree that we should give God the glory... but I guess I want to know, really know, what does the bible means when it says glory? I know there are references all over to God's glory, so if we glorify God, are we not simply reflecting his love and light back to him and to each other? then he doesn't glorify himself, but he is the source of the glory. I've puzzled on this and I just don't know, but whatever it is, I believe WG is right that its lack is why healing doesn't happen in twi anymore.
it's much deeper than God doing stuff to honor himself and glorify himself... but maybe I over-reacted because of my extensive experience with pathological narcissists... I don't want to believe that God is one!
Watered Garden & Potato-----------Man, I wish you didn't both have names that remind me it's past dinner time!
Anyhoo, I looked up "glory" in The Merriam Webster Dictionary and what I found was that "glory" is honor and praise.It goes on to say that the honor and praise is rendered in worship. Now, I'm not too "up" on current slang but is that what the kids mean by giving someone their "props"? Now those lunkheads( Is that still a word?) at St. Marys' Hospital might have figured some of that honor and praise should have been funneled in their direction. (Of course they were sorely mistaken)As far as being strong, ,it's not our own strength that matters so much but the strength of the one we look to for strength. And you are right, Potato,it was moi who used the word "use". It was like suddenly I remembered how riled up I used to get when I heard non-TWI people pray for God to make them an "instrument of his will". I'm getting better at recognizing those triggers though sometimes I think I still have a ways to go in learning to temper my response. Thanks, Motherof2, for bringing some of this stuff to the front burner. OK., my grandson Cletus(that's his name) just said "Gosh Grandpaw!, you're gettin' way too sappy!" Now where do you suppose a young 'un like that heard a word like "sappy"?
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I can see great value in life insurance. in a way it's like a high-risk long-term investment for me. my ex is court-ordered to carry it. my great hope is one day I'll wake up to the news he's considerately terminated his life by way of some freak accident and I'll finally, by way of his policy, have money to raise my kids with and pay off the debt he stuck me with.
I also would like to have a policy of my own so that if I kick off unexpectedly, my sister can put it in trust for my kids' college. if I'm around to sue my ex for his share, they'll get to go. if not, life insurance will take care of it for them.
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CoolWaters:
Your experience with poor pastoring I can identify with. Bad pastors are all over the place and many of them just preach dirt poor doctrine, a judgmental type of Christianity. When I married my wife I got two stepsons who were already grown and on their own. One was slow intellectually, the other was not but both were incredibly irresponsible, having kids out of wedlock, going in and out of jail, ruining jobs they were on and destroying my wife physically, mentally, and the two of us financially. When I took over I did cut out any support to them because all it did was help them continue in their mess. They began to straighten up a little, but still were pretty bad, getting into fights in town, more jail, bad driving records. Worse, when I cut the support to them, and they got traffic tickets and lost jobs, the real father of the kids would pick up and continue the support of the two of them, paying all their traffic costs, tickets, insurance, until he went broke.
We asked for prayer in this situation from a pastor bt email, who did not reply to the email. We then went to a splinter group fellowship where he attended and we asked the group for prayer of these two, and the pastor got up as prayer began and went into the other room, refusing to take part in the prayer. I believe some pastors who think that misbehaving people deserve what they get and do not deserve prayer. But at least the rest prayed. We decided to dump the pastor. You can do that - fire your pastor. Go somewhere else. Fire him or her just like a lawyer, or change doctors, things like that.
Here is what happened after that.
The slow one, (mentally retarded) was with a group of derelicts who were driving in cold January morning when one of the derelicts told my slow son to get in the back seat so he could drink with the driver in the front seat. They went traveling, swerved off a road and hit a telephone pole. The one who took my son's place was killed instantly, and in fact, nearly decapitated. The driver survived but as a partial cripple, his legs pinned under the dashboard with the car turned up and around the telephone pole. Worse, the driver had AIDs and was bleeding in the car. My son ended up going through a side window and his body was supported by the window and we was above the driver with AIDs. My son got off the easiest, with eight broken ribs, burns to his back and some lacerations and was taken out unconscious. All of them were tested for alcohol content including the dead one. The two up front were found to be far above the legal limit for alcohol while my son registered - zero - no alcohol. He was taken to the hospital, life-flighted, and we prayed again. While he was there, we had him tested for the AIDs virus and he was negative, but we had to repeat the tests several times over several months and he was finally declared negative for sure, or never exposed. The car had been drenched in blood, but we think it was from the front passenger side derelict (sorry, but you had to know these punks) after almost being decapitated. My son, I thought, thinking back, had been fortunate that he was not on the bottom of the wreck where the driver with AIDs could bleed onto his open wounds, but rather my son was on top, bleeding on the driver.
It took one more year but as slow as he was, realized that these "friends" of his were using him because he was slow, and decided to cut it off with them. With prayer and a little help, he accepted Christ. He believed God must have saved him despite his bad behavior. We later tried to get him working but he kept losing jobs for being too slow. He is on SSDI and SSI disability now, but my wife and I are planning a business where we can employ him, because no one else will. He got married and his wife was almost as lsow as he was but she didn't look it. She was very beautiful. Her story was that her family put her out in the street at 16 years old because they didn't want to deal with her. Social services took care of her, but she and Scott met and have married and now have a normal child. They are good parents. He laments now because no one lets him work (for very long). My wife and I check in on them a lot.
The other son continued to be a problem but is reaping the consequences of his actions from the past. Because he has not really come to God yet, we continue to pray for him. His life gets better with some help, but I refuse to give him anything unless he really needs something and only do it once. One day he called up asking about church. He talked to my wife for a while.
We had prayed for other things, too, in our neighborhood. We had three houses surrounding us that were filled with young people partying several times a week into the morning hours. Calling the police didn't help much. Talking with them personally didn't help much. After two years of prayer on this, something extraordinary happened. The three houses all went up for sale and sold, all within about three weeks of each other, and were replaced with much better neighbors.
I believe Coolwaters did the right thing going to the hospital that night and calling the pastors later. It is okay to ask God first for the healing, but if believing hinges on such perfectness, then we better take the trip to the hsopital praying along the way. If the person heals, then great! If not, then medical help is there.
We have seen miracles in our lives with consistent prayer. We still pray for both sons.
Last week the son that had not accepted Christ yet (as far as we know), was in an accident totaling his company vehicle. It was hit by a man going through a red light. He was not injured despite the seriousness of the accident. I was in a car in traffic and fell asleep at the wheel last week. The car braked at the intersection at a red light and woke me up, but not my wife. My foot was on the brake but I didn't remember putting it there. I told my wife just last night about that and she laughed. I thought she would be mad. But she also said if I was tired anymore to just pull in somewhere and sleep in the car.
Good advice.
I still believe God wants to heal us, even now. I am still trying to figure out what it takes to get there.
Eagle
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I Love Bagpipes
I just now read your post JL. Somehow I missed it when I posted before. Hmmm...what you stated is what I ended up doing many a time. It was as you stated "confusing," so I'd go back to what was working for ME.
Thanks JL, your whole post(s): well and succinctly stated. :)
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motherof2
i am so anxious to read all of these after my kids go to bed...my son is going to get a skin graft on tuesday...which i am happy about, his burn is painful and raw...what is the significance of heb 11:1 to wayfers? let me know...its getting heated around here..
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waysider
Motherof2-----Here is what I remember from my days as a "wayfer". The teachings in TWI on Hebrews 11:1 stated that when one reads the word "faith" in Hebrews, it is to be interpreted as "believing". The reasoning for this is that they(TWI) taught that "faith" did not exist until the new birth became available. It all fell under a large umbrella of scripture that was used to validate the "law of believing". There is an old adage that states"seeing is believing". TWI used Heb. 11:1 and many other scriptures to turn that expression backwards so that it became"believe first and then you will see (the fruit of your believing)."Now, going one step further," you must take action on your believing before you will see results." There is, of course, some truth in this thinking. For example: You may need/want a better job. You send out resumes, interview with perpective employers and take various other actions associated with the job seeking process. Your "believing action" pays off and finally you see the result manifest itself as a new job. Now depending on where and when you were taught these things they would sometimes be twisted and contorted to take on a sort of "wishing things into existance" type of thinking. The problem that enters here is that simply wishing something is going to happen and picturing it happening do not make it actually happen. So, the axiom of "believing is seeing " is at its' root level a fallacy.
This is where (imo) this concept of believing your way through the problems that life throws at you originated.
It even got to a point where it was unacceptible to call a problem just that: a "problem." We called them "opportunities" because it implied that it was merely an "opportunity" to believe for a positive outcome. Along with this was the idea of "positive and negative confession". (Both outloud and in your thinking) because according to the catch phrase:"what you are confessing, you are possesing". This stuff can get quite convoluted and the mind has a tendency to want to rationalize things that logic tells you are nonsence. Sorry I rambled on. I don't know any quick way to get to the heart of what Hebrews chap. 11 supposedly was teaching us. That is not to say that there are not great truths in this section of scripture. I just don't believe(imo) that it can be used to prove the existance of some sort of magical "law of believing".
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potato
yeah, TWIts do believe it's a magic gift card to whatever they want. if they believe hard enough, they already own it so God has to give it to them.
I read over it in the amplified version http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?searc...amp;version=45;
1NOW FAITH is the assurance (the confirmation, [a]the title deed) of the things [we] hope for, being the proof of things [we] do not see and the conviction of their reality [faith perceiving as real fact what is not revealed to the senses].
2For by [faith--trust and holy fervor born of faith] the men of old had divine testimony borne to them and obtained a good report.
3By faith we understand that the worlds [during the successive ages] were framed (fashioned, put in order, and equipped for their intended purpose) by the word of God, so that what we see was not made out of things which are visible.
all the people in between... then
39And all of these, though they won divine approval by [means of] their faith, did not receive the fulfillment of what was promised,
40Because God had us in mind and had something better and greater in view for us, so that they [these heroes and heroines of faith] should not come to perfection apart from us [before we could join them].
it's beautiful. it's not a magic gift card. we don't see God but we believe and that belief (or faith) gives us strength to carry on and live for him when we can't prove he exists. it gives us strength to do great things (in God's sight, not men's)
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What The Hey
You'll have exactly what you say you have. Believing is not governed by what others say, but in and by what you say. It doesn't matter one iota what others have to say to it, but by what you say to it. That is the law of believing.
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WordWolf
In other words, WTH's trying to sell you on the "LAW of Believing" again.
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T-Bone
It doesn't matter one iota what reason, experience or Scripture will tell you – TWI's "law of believing" is one of their best kept secrets on self-hypnosis…it may be helpful to paraphrase their formula so as to reveal the actual governing principle of this "law": believing equals perceiving. If you believe TWI's magical-gobbledygook-explanation of what's controlling reality…then that is what you will perceive as controlling reality!...It would do any serious Christian a lot of good to take to heart Oakspear's advice in post # 48: "…it's not "waybrained" to hold fast to what you have seen and experienced. A good case of waybrain is usually characterized by clinging to Way doctrine that isn't supportable by either experience or the bible…"
I think TWI had another key on how THEY interpret the Bible…this is one not published in any TWI books or classes and is the evil-twin of Scripture build-up…it's called Scripture cover-up. And it works like this…TWI selectively stockpiles verses by yanking them out of context and/or omitting any specificity, moral honesty, submissiveness to God's will or limitations implied in the verse or context. And that's only half the cover-up! The other half is to ignore any passage that runs counter to TWI's teaching on the subject…
Running counter to What the Hey's and TWI's idea that you'll have exactly what you say you have is an admonition written in the book of James.
James 4:13-17
13 Now listen, you who say, "Today or tomorrow we will go to this or that city, spend a year there, carry on business and make money." 14 Why, you do not even know what will happen tomorrow. What is your life? You are a mist that appears for a little while and then vanishes. 15 Instead, you ought to say, "If it is the Lord's will, we will live and do this or that." 16 As it is, you boast and brag. All such boasting is evil. 17 Anyone, then, who knows the good he ought to do and doesn't do it, sins.
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waysider
If WTH had simply put "---------" around all but the phrase "That is the law of believing" and then stated "That is the law of believing", it would give an entirely different meaning to the post. It would then be simply a statement of description rather than a personal defense of the premise. I have no idea if that was WTHs' intent. Perhaps WTH can rejoin the discussion and clarify that point.
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T-Bone
In regards to your TWI questions, some of my post # 60 addresses TWI's wishful thinking doctrine…and any followers who manifest evidence to the contrary of this imaginary-genie-in-a-Bible formula [for example something bad happens] are condemned for violating one or more of the gazillion rules in this mind-game: rule # 4,787,259 = perhaps you didn't rub the Bible exactly three times – you have to do that or the genie won't come out…rule # 4,787,260 = perhaps you were murmuring against the genie or complaining about the genie holding out on you…
As a Christian I also believe in the power of prayer. I like WordWolf pointing out in his post # 39 TWI's playing more of their mind-game tricks – dubbing any medical treatment –even an aspirin – as "third aid." Thinking back now on our stint in the Family Corps it saddens me to recall the needless suffering, discomfort and mental anguish TWI subjected people to – all for the sake of the integrity of their doctrine. I remember the third aid administrator heaping the guilt-trip on us over our wanting to give our kid an antibiotic – "Well, if you want to put those chemicals in your child…" said with such disdain as if we wanted to give our kid a glass of paint thinner.
I think the context of James 5:16 may imply that pray is to be utilized in conjunction with medical treatment - - and that there is a moral aspect and humbling perspective to our prayer life.
James 5:14-18
14 Is any one of you sick? He should call the elders of the church to pray over him and anoint him with oil in the name of the Lord. 15 And the prayer offered in faith will make the sick person well; the Lord will raise him up. If he has sinned, he will be forgiven. 16 Therefore confess your sins to each other and pray for each other so that you may be healed. The prayer of a righteous man is powerful and effective.
17 Elijah was a man just like us. He prayed earnestly that it would not rain, and it did not rain on the land for three and a half years. 18 Again he prayed, and the heavens gave rain, and the earth produced its crops.
Some interpret the anointing of oil as a reference to ceremonial anointing; some take it in a metaphorical sense of the elders' comforting the believer; and some [myself for one] thinks James had medical treatment in mind - in other words our prayer of faith is used in conjunction with medical treatment.
The thing that also intrigues me about this passage is the moral aspect with references like "If he has sinned, he will be forgiven…confess your sins…The prayer of a righteous man…" "If he has sinned" in verse 15 uses hamartia in Greek and according to Expository Dictionary of Bible Words edited by Stephen Renn is the Greek dynamic equivalent for the Old Testament Hebrew word for hattat and refers to the general sense of violating God's law, failing to meet God's revealed moral, ethical and ritual standards. "…confess your sins…" in verse 16 is from the Greek word paraptoma and Renn's Expository Dictionary says it's a dynamic equivalent for the Old Testament Hebrew word pesha with the dominant sense of transgression, trespass, rebellion, sin or offense and can refer to an offense against God or people.
What does all this sin stuff have to do with effective prayer? In my opinion…plenty – after coming out of TWI-land! It speaks to my attitude in prayer – it reminds me be humble and accept a Christian reality – I am a sinner…And yes God does hear sinners…good thing or I'd be s.o.l. many times – but what I see in this passage as in many other sections about prayer is the submissiveness we are to have towards God. I no longer see prayer as dropping off my wish list at His throne and saying "guess I don't have to tell yah how important it is to handle these items quickly" as I hurriedly head out of the throne room. Or that I have some right to demand these things from Him…Or that I am sin-free and deserve any of this stuff…More and more I see prayer as part of my ongoing relationship with God – a communing with Him. I'm not telling Him what to do. I'm acknowledging I'm powerless, a sinner…and asking for His help in the situation – and submitting to whatever way He sees fit to handle things. That reminds me of Paul's predicament in II Corinthians:
II Corinthians 12:7-10
7 To keep me from becoming conceited because of these surpassingly great revelations, there was given me a thorn in my flesh, a messenger of Satan, to torment me. 8 Three times I pleaded with the Lord to take it away from me. 9 But he said to me, "My grace is sufficient for you, for my power is made perfect in weakness." Therefore I will boast all the more gladly about my weaknesses, so that Christ's power may rest on me. 10 That is why, for Christ's sake, I delight in weaknesses, in insults, in hardships, in persecutions, in difficulties. For when I am weak, then I am strong.
I believe God always answers prayer – but the answer is not always what we think it should be. As in Paul's case. Paul thought "God, just take my problem away." However, God did not do that – instead He provided Paul with grace and power to handle the problem.
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motherof2
t-bone...awesome work on interpretation there..i could not agree more!! i think it is so important to consider context when you are interpreting scripture..great points!
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E. W. Bullinger
Dear Mother of 2:
It is nice to meet you here at the café.
My memories of teachings about healing in the Way was that it was God who was responsible for all healing. They taught that was God who put in our bodies it’s ability to heal itself. So if you went to someone for prayer or to a doctor it was still God who got the glory for your healing.
I will admit I knew people who felt like they were second rate believers because they had to go to a doctor for a physical problems. However I have been an eyewitness to many people’s miraculous healings. I left the Way 10 years ago and have been to several churches. I have yet to see the healing that I saw in the 70’s and 80’s. It is kind of funny, as the Way got more legalistic in the 90’s it seemed that fewer people got delivered from physical problems.
E. W. Bullinger
P. S. I am not just talking about people who were healed from a cold or a headache. I have known people who had physical deformity or disability and were delivered at Way functions.
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coolchef
back in the 70's and 80's healing did happen
and i was a doubter
i do believe some people had the gift
and others THOUGHT they did
example
at way way family camp in the pocconos { family camp will be another thread in a moment}
my ex thought she had the gift of healing
she minestered to a blind guy one night
she declared him to be healed
he thought he was
thanked her
got up to go back to his cabin
and walked smack into a tree
so i don't know
there is fake and there is real
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potato
I was healed from a physical infirmity at my first RoA. it was before leadership got their claws into me and sucked the life out of me, when my only experience was my original wow family and then a twig that had a lot of love for God. no one ministered to me, I asked God what was wrong with me and he told me!
I do believe in healings and I will never pretend to understand why some are miraculous and some don't appear to be, or why some that I think should happen, don't.
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waysider
Amen, Tater &CC-------I believe God can and does heal. I've seen it in my own life as well as others.
What I don't believe,though, is that VPW and TWI understood what it is and how it works.
(Not that I do either but then I'm not claiming to have the inside track on it. )
Maybe we're not supposed to "understand" it. Maybe we're just supposed to be thankful for it.
Just my opinion ------------everybody's got one.
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motherof2
i couldnt agree more..miraculous healings can and do happen!! i had a friend whos cancer mysteriously disappeared from all x-rays not too long ago after he was annointed with oil and prayed for at church with hundreds of people layed hands on him. but i also believe that dr's can help too and that God doesnt always do healing instantly like that. as far as certain people having the "power" or "gift"...im not sold on that..i believe God will use anyone to accomplish His will. Why certain people are healed or arent healed well i posted on that not too long ago..that my belief is that God is not here for us..we are here for Him..for His glory..for His pleasure and His first objective is to glorify Himself and He does everything He does to honor Himself and only He knows how He will get the most glory. and the other side is this...we live in a fallen world with sickness, injuries, etc..and crap just happens..i dont think He pulls strings up there either..i think a lot of time He just lets the chips fall where they may!
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potato
I just can't get behind such a mercenary picture of God. I truly believe the verse that says God is Love, and a God who is out solely to garner glory to himself doesn't paint a picture of Love.
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Watered Garden
I don't know near as much about healing as I used to, but there was a definite change in the air after LCM took hold. One of the biggest thrills of my WOW year (1974-75) was sitting a girl down who had a migraine and praying for her in the Name of Jesus Christ and her headache was gone just like THAT! Later, my WOW coordinator, on her interim year with the 4th WC, reproved me for ministering to her because I was not an Advanced Class grad. I pointed out none of the apostles were either, but Jesus said to heal people in His Name and there ya go.
So maybe a clue is there somewhere. Could it be that TWI thought it learned so much about healing that it obfuscated the simple truths Jesus taught?
My first several years "in" we prayed for each other all the time, and cool things happened.
However, in 1994, when I was in a hospital during the ROA having just been diagnosed withi nsulin dependent diabetes, at least a dozen TWI'ers came to see me, some of whom I'd known for years. How many do you think offered to pray for me? ZERO. How many do you think encouraged me and said positive things and reminded me that God's will was for me to have perfect health? None. Not one.
the atmosphere had changed such that I was suspect. If something was wrong with me, it was because I had done something wrong.
This is false thinking.
I can't really explain this much and I've gotta vacuum. But maybe that's a start.
MERRY CHRISTMAS!
WG
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E. W. Bullinger
Dear Mother of 2:
Your starting this thread has got me to think a lot about the deliverance I have seen in people’s lives. I agree with Potato. Your thinking behind why God heals some people and not others for His glory is a bit difficult to follow.
I have to tell you that while I do think that there are some scriptural problems with they Way’s doctrine of believing, your explanation that God sometimes “lets the chips fall where they may” seems to be a rehashing of a pagan Greek mythology. The ancient Greeks explained the randomness that they saw in life with the Fates. These were three spinners with one who made the thread, the second wove it and the third cut it with her shears. So if you had a child with a deformity it was because the spinner made the tread of their life that way. If someone seemed to catch a lot of breaks in life it was because the weaver made the fabric of your life that way. Lastly if someone died prematurely it was because the scissors of last Fate cut your life short. You could pray to these gals, but they rarely changed their minds about your lot in life.
So perhaps Mother of 2 I did not understand your explanation. Could you please give try to explain it again. I can not ask the people that I go to church with this question. They already think that I have a lot of crackpot theories and to bring this up would open another can of worms.
Sincerely,
E. W. Bullinger
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waysider
Motherof2-----------One of the concepts I think TWI may have gotten right(at least in the early days) was that God does not "use" us in a manner that would violate our freewill. This is one of those things that became deeply imbedded in the subconscious thinking of TWI followers. When the term is used, it sends up an automatic "red flag" that goes beyond cognizant awareness.That's how mind control works. There are many phrases and buzz words that have that kind of effect. There are some threads here that speak specifically to that subject. The closest thing I know to describe it is the Hollywood version of someone being hypnotised to feel like their skin itches every time someone says he word "duck". Of course, that's not really how hypnosis works, but that is the image we have come to accept from the entertainment media. My point is that in using that phrasing, it will probably trigger a response from ex-TWIers that even they don't understand.
Having read your previous posts, I feel pretty confident you did not mean it in that manner or that you knew you would trigger a programmed response.( I'm only speaking of my own response which I am starting to recognize as being deep rooted) Of course, once one realizes this is happening,it become much easier to respond to it in a logical rather than automatic manner.
Like you, I believe God should always get the glory for healings even though we may be an active part in the process either though prayer, ministering healing or intervening by providing medical attention.
I probably didn't explain that very well but I think I saw from the gist of your post that your heart was for God to get the Glory. That's an honorable stance to take. (Just my opinion.) :) edited for spelling.
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Watered Garden
Hey, Waysider, maybe that's why the healings sort of trailed off in the later years - God wasn't getting the glory. I was so stunned that NO ONE offered to pray with me when I was in St. Mary's Hospital. Some even seemed embarrassed, as if they really shouldn't have come to see me at all.
Back in WA, I asked B*****A L***Y what I could do to get healed. She said to read the Word and take my medicine until it made me sick. She made it pretty clear that no one was going to pray for me, minister healing to me, and "if it was to me it was up to me."
I am not that strong.
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potato
gotta jump in, waysider, cuz I was the one who started with the objection to God's motives as stated by motherof2
I didn't take exception to the word "use", actually... it was this statement:
"His first objective is to glorify Himself and He does everything He does to honor Himself and only He knows how He will get the most glory."
I do agree that we should give God the glory... but I guess I want to know, really know, what does the bible means when it says glory? I know there are references all over to God's glory, so if we glorify God, are we not simply reflecting his love and light back to him and to each other? then he doesn't glorify himself, but he is the source of the glory. I've puzzled on this and I just don't know, but whatever it is, I believe WG is right that its lack is why healing doesn't happen in twi anymore.
it's much deeper than God doing stuff to honor himself and glorify himself... but maybe I over-reacted because of my extensive experience with pathological narcissists... I don't want to believe that God is one!
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waysider
Watered Garden & Potato-----------Man, I wish you didn't both have names that remind me it's past dinner time!
Anyhoo, I looked up "glory" in The Merriam Webster Dictionary and what I found was that "glory" is honor and praise.It goes on to say that the honor and praise is rendered in worship. Now, I'm not too "up" on current slang but is that what the kids mean by giving someone their "props"? Now those lunkheads( Is that still a word?) at St. Marys' Hospital might have figured some of that honor and praise should have been funneled in their direction. (Of course they were sorely mistaken)As far as being strong, ,it's not our own strength that matters so much but the strength of the one we look to for strength. And you are right, Potato,it was moi who used the word "use". It was like suddenly I remembered how riled up I used to get when I heard non-TWI people pray for God to make them an "instrument of his will". I'm getting better at recognizing those triggers though sometimes I think I still have a ways to go in learning to temper my response. Thanks, Motherof2, for bringing some of this stuff to the front burner. OK., my grandson Cletus(that's his name) just said "Gosh Grandpaw!, you're gettin' way too sappy!" Now where do you suppose a young 'un like that heard a word like "sappy"?
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