I always find it interesting that the guilt trip, the condemnation, the viciousness regarding illness never seemed to apply to the biggies. Did anyone ask VPW "Do you understand what it is that you did that caused you to have ocular melanoma?" Somehow I kinda doubt it. In fact, as I recall, some fabrication was put out about his surgerybeing for some other reason, i.e., he burned his eyes recording PFAL and just got tired of the pain. After all, in order to have cancer, it is first necessary that one be POSSESSED with a spirit of cancer, right? Wouldn't want anyone to think that VP had a devil spirit.
Waysider, in our second year in FLO, there was a couple who left unexplainedly in the middle of the year. I suspect it was because one of them had health issues. However, we just came home from work one day and they were gone. No explanation. When I asked for one, I was told I could ask them if I ever saw them again.
The whole issue was rife with hypocrisy.
I wrote earlier of the person with the illness in my church...we are all wearing pink ribbons on our nametags Sunday in support!
I always find it interesting that the guilt trip, the condemnation, the viciousness regarding illness never seemed to apply to the biggies. Did anyone ask VPW "Do you understand what it is that you did that caused you to have ocular melanoma?" Somehow I kinda doubt it. In fact, as I recall, some fabrication was put out about his surgerybeing for some other reason, i.e., he burned his eyes recording PFAL and just got tired of the pain. After all, in order to have cancer, it is first necessary that one be POSSESSED with a spirit of cancer, right? Wouldn't want anyone to think that VP had a devil spirit.
Here's what I posted in the "wonderland" timeline (5.6):
=============
"vpw spent his life drinking alcoholic beverages and smoking cigarettes and cigars-
tobacco products. Although he usually did it "off-camera", many people knew some
of this. Everyone knew he at least smoked, but he seemed to chain-smoke when
"no one was watching." Furthermore, he had a "coffee cup" next to him for morning
meetings and so on-and often, the contents had nothing to do with coffee. Those who
ever commented on it (who were few enough among those who noticed) were
treated to his comments about us not being "under condemnation" and thus it wasn't
sinful, and therefore had no consequences.
However, there WERE consequences....
By 1984, the long-term exposure to alcohol-which damages internal organs, including
those that act as the body's filtration system and also damages the brain-
and long-term exposure to tobacco-which is a known cancer-causing agent
(unlike studio lights)- resulted in some permanent damage to vpw' body.
He acquired cancer of the eye and liver, and suffered a stroke.
vpw quite vocally-and often- announced that the eye damage was the result
of getting cancer from the studio lights used when filming PFAL- thus saying it was
the result of virtuous activity, and used to give the students a guilty conscience.
Once, when addressing the corps, he was speaking on personal committment to
God. He said "I gave my EYE-what are YOU willing to give?"
Further, in private, vpw was MOST disturbed that he had ANY physical problems,
especially this one. He claimed he'd never been sick or needed an aspirin EVER-
not ONE DAY in his life-before this. Not even in PRIVATE did he ever seem to admit
he'd exposed his body to carcinogens for DECADES. He had surgery that
removed the cancer-stricken eye.
The details of the stroke were COMPLETELY hidden-although there were witnesses-
and the existence of any cancer produced a problem. According to vpw's DOCTRINE,
any Christian should be able to believe sufficiently to burn out a cancer from their
body. vpw had slowly manipulated his personal image to the point that he was
frequently seen as some sort of super-Christian-which is what he wanted. However,
this meant he should have EASILY believed away his cancer.
WORSE, he'd taught in the Advanced class that, since a cancer has a life of its own
(like algae), it must be the result of devil activity. Since vpw was supposedly a
super-Christian, he should have been able to deflect such an assault easily.
However, rather than adjust his image, or correct his doctrine-which had already
hurt many other Christians-he simply hid the cause of his descent into death.
In 1985 the "Word over the World Auditorium" opened at the organizations hq on the farm.
vpw died May 20, 1985 at age 68. According to his death certificate, the cause was
cancer of the liver and of the eye. According to most people in twi at the time,
the cause was UNKNOWN. The most commonly-stated reason was
"he got tired of fighting."
In the last few months of his life, vpw visited Gartmore and spoke privately
with Chr1s Ge*r. He (CG) later claimed that his own paper which he wrote
afterwards-"the Passing of the Patriarch"-was based entirely on private
conversations with vpw. (Some people believe him, some do not.)
That paper-among other things-also claims that vpw would have been
able to "believe himself healthy" if he'd wanted to."
Do you want to know how much vpw and twi leaders believed in the power of prayers and healing???????
Not too darned much because nobody was notified of his illness.
A couple of days before his death we were told there were some opportunities that we could pray if we wanted. Nothing major, all pretty low key.
My goodness, why not enact 24 hour of prayer internationally?
You would have thought that they would have considered the heart felt earnest prayers of tens of thousands of believers without ceasing, as a good thing.
They obviously didn`t believe that there was any power in prayer, or that it would do any good, or in healing, or we would have been asked to pray, rather than letting vp slip away unnoticed and then making up a lie why he died, and finding a way to pin the responsibility of his death on others....
I always wondered if they believed what they taught us, or it was just the bait on the hook.
As I recall, there was a 24 hours of prayer for VPW in the week before his demise. If 2Life ever comes around these parts, she might remember.
Working as I do in a cancer hospital, I've often wondered this:
If cancer is a disease that has life of itself, how come when the patient dies, the cancer dies right along with the patient? why doesn't it just get up and take over the body that was recently vacated by the non-cancerous part of the patient?
I too, had heard that his eye problem was caused by the studio lights. It was presented in a way that would make him appear to be a martyr. Of course, it could be true because the movie making process was so new in 1967( or whenever it was) that no one really knew the long term effects of spending a couple weeks on a movie set.
As to the couple who were shown the door in the middle of the night, their exit was due to them participating in an activity that many young single people like to pursue. They were married within days of leaving but have long since divorced. There was also another couple who lost the child they were expecting due to her being required to run and do other physical activities even though she was clearly experiencing difficulties. If I recall correctly, the damage done was permanent and would have prevented the possibilty of future pregnancies. Another one of our FLO brothers suffered an injury that resulted in a very serious infection. He was advised to "get his believing up". He nearly died when sepsis set in and forced him to submit to medical treatment and a hospital stay. There were quite a few others who were shown the door too so I may be confusing these with the parties to whom you are referring. Doctors were definately seen as the enemy and it was considered a sign of spiritual weakness to even have medical insurance. Heck! Just think how much more you could ABS if only you didn't buy insurance!
You said, "Oh yeah, insurance. We were told that if we had insurance, we were believing for something bad to happen"
You know.. I don't ever recall anyone saying that.. But I sure used to think that when I was in.. Maybe it was inferred or something.. Hmm.. OH well.. There are so many things Health insurance is good for. Starting with lower bills when you go to the doctor for those things you can't avoid. Like check ups or physicals or having a baby..
Heaven forbid you ever get sick or your child is so perfect he/she will never get hurt.. I sure hope no one was the gullible.
I remember the no insurance teachings, too. insurance companies were out to steal money we should give to the ministry, and it was negative believing to submit to such worldly idiocy.
Doctors were definately seen as the enemy and it was considered a sign of spiritual weakness to even have medical insurance.
When I was in The Way, there was not an emphasis on doctors "seen as the enemy". In fact, just before I went WOW in 1976, my parents wanted me to go to an oral surgeon to have my wisdom teeth out because one of them had caused me some pain, but then backed away and all was fine again. And even though it would have cost us nothing with my dad's health insurance (he was a US Public Health Service officer), I refused, because I could "believe that my wisdom teeth would come in straight, and that there would be no need for me to go to a doctor".
My mother, upon hearing this, wrote to Dr. Wierwille, and asked him if he were teaching the kids to shun the medical profession. His response was (and I still have the letter, for she gave me a copy), that "we in The Way Ministry definitely believe that God wills for us to be healed, and that God is able and willing to heal us and with a miracle if necessary. However, many of our youth in The Way are very zealous and do not use common sense at times when it comes to something like this. Tell your son Kevin to get on down to the oral surgeon and get his dental work taken care of."
And so, my mother, with a smug smile, read me that letter in an "I told you so" sort of a manner, and admonished me to take Dr. Wierwille's advice. Well, as things progressed, I never did get the job done, and later, when I was out as a WOW in So California, one of those wisdom teeth impacted in a drastic way, and I spent three days in delirium with my jaw swelled up so big that I looked like a monster. My WOW Sistahs literally sat up with me at night and during the day tending to me with a cold wash cloth while I moaned in agony. Finally, we went to a regional WOW thing at a guy named Fuzz Patstone's "Good Seed Ranch" near San Diego, where a 7th Corps guy who was a dentist saw me, looked at my tooth and promptly wrote me a prescription for anti-biotics, as well as some codeine to take away the pain. And man, was I stoned the rest of that day at the Good Seed Ranch! I should have listened to Dr. Wierwille and gone to the oral surgeon though. I would have been spared some serious agony.
And so, what does this mean? Well, I was the one who had refused a doctor's help, even though VP had tried to get me to go. So, to make the accusation that The Way treated doctors as the enemy just does not fit with my experience. Plus, that dentist who helped me ended up being the dentist at Rome City for a long time. Dan Somebody. Now, if doctors were to be seen as "the enemy" why would The Way have a DDS at Rome City taking care of everyone's teeth?
I think that the emphasis in The Way was that we were to try and rely on God first, and if we didn't believe to be healed, then go and see a doctor. I think that this is why those who were nurses many times were the ones (wo)manning the Third Aid stations at the Rock, Corps Week, and on our campuses...
Of course, this may have changed drastically after TWI II took root with LCM's draconian rule. I wouldn't be surprised by that one little bit...
Youch, Jonny! There's nothing more painful than a toothache!
I remember the same thing as you regarding most doctors. I remember going to a dentist when I was on the WOW field, and he was a "standing" PFAL grad. And I had to get a chest X-ray (why?) before I went in residence. I don't remember if I needed a complete physical. And I lost my contact lenses while I was there. I needed special permission to spend over my $30 limit, but I got it, and was able to see an eye doctor and have them replaced. But like you, this was TWI 1.
Now, if you needed a doctor for mental health, that was a whole other story. God forbid you were depressed, or bi-polar, or had any other mental health issue, while you were in TWI. I don't care if you were in TWI 1, 2, or 57, you were treated like you were lower than dirt. I don't remember anyone being encouraged to seek help from a doctor.
I remember hearing LCM go on about, “If you can’t believe for healing, you can believe that God works in the doctor or surgeon” to fix what is necessary. Think that was on a Corps night.
But generally, I saw lots of physical needs - long-standing believers with various disabilities which made, say, mobility very difficult.
Praying for and expecting more or less instant healing wasn’t what happened, as the norm. DrtyDzn sums it up just about right.
The insurance thing I do recall: but back out on the field, my WC leaders very quickly disabused me of the idea that certain insurances were not necessary and made sure that where it ought to be obtained, it was.
Since getting out in a very short time I’ve seen more genuine miracles of healing than ever seen in the long years in TWI.
I seem to remember, or have a very strong impression, that TWI's attitude toward hospitalizations, surgery, illness changed somewhat drastically when Donna had so many problems with one of her pregnancies that she needed constant medical monitoring.
once the MOG's offspring was at issue, the Word regarding monitoring our health changed.
Well, as far as having insurance goes, I asked about whether or not we should have it back when I took PFAL at a family camp back in 1974. I didn't have insurance, so I don't know why it was a big deal to me, other that me just trying to make sense of what they were teaching. This was during our twig groups that met during the morning...I think they called it the "hour of power" (right before "devotion with motion" exercise time). Anyhoo, when I asked that question they had a woman (who was some big-wig from hq...sorry...don't remember her name) come over to our twig to address the question. She said that if you're believing God, you don't need insurance. I followed with some what if scenerios, but the answer was the same. It didn't fully make sense to me, but that was just one of many times that I turned off my brain and chalked up my lack of understanding to my "babe in the Word-ed-ness".
As far as when first aid started being called third air...it was called that from as far back as the mid-70's, if not earlier. Emphasis always first ask God, then ask for "ministering", then if your believing wasn't there...go get medical attention...always alluding to the failure of the person to believe God.
I seem to remember, or have a very strong impression, that TWI's attitude toward hospitalizations, surgery, illness changed somewhat drastically when Donna had so many problems with one of her pregnancies that she needed constant medical monitoring.
once the MOG's offspring was at issue, the Word regarding monitoring our health changed.
And the "don't go to university and get a degree" stuff all ground to a halt in time for the
bot's kids to attend college.
These are the sort of things that make you go "Hmmmmm....."
JonnyLingo-------My statement about doctors being seen as the enemy was specifically referring to the attitude and teachings that existed in Fellowlaborers in the mid '70's. We were in a rural setting and kept a tightly regulated schedule that stretched from 5am til midnight when all lights were to be out. To take time out to see a dentist or doctor was definately not something that was done without close scrutiny. I realize not everyone was in this situation or subjected to this kind of rigid behaviour. When anyone did see a dentist or doctor or eye doctor, it was a very big deal and many times people would "tough out " things that really would have been best served with medical attention. Sometimes the consequenses were long lasting and damaging. You had to get special permission to take time off for any kind of appointment and 50 other people were aware of your absence.
As to life insurance being called "death insurance" I heard it taught too many times to count. I think perhaps the first one I heard to use this term was Uncle Harry but I don't know if that's where the term originated.
No problem. I am just talking about my experience, that's all. The folks with whom I fellowshipped weren't condescending when one opted for a doctor, but rather, did their best to cheer a person and help them to NOT be in condemnation because they didn't "get the quick miracle". I was blessed to be around a lot of loving people during my Way days. One time I smashed my left pinky finger into a bloody mess, and had to drive twenty miles through the Oregon mountains to get to the limb home back in Portland where the LC's wife, an RN, took care of me with her "doctor bag" of, among other things, surgical snips to clip off my badly damaged skin, wasted finger nail, etc. Then she put some aloe vera plant goo on it, bandaged it, prayed for me, and sent me on my way. And it healed very quickly.
When it came to health insurance, well, I came to my own conclusions on that one. I was of a "youthful invincible mindset" ( I was eighteen when I "got in"), and believing God for good health fit perfectly with the idea of "not wasting money" on something like health insurance that I wouldn't need anyway. But as time went on, marriage and kids came along, etc, I began to see the value of health insurance, thanks to my wife, a personal lines insurance agent. But even then, I didn't get lambasted by my LC for having "full coverage" on our vehicles, or what is known up here as "Alaska Kidcare" health care.
Now, Life Insurance, that's a dandy! I was totally opposed to it. I remember telling some Mutual Of Omaha guy over the phone that; "What would I need life insurance for? I have Life Assurance! For God will take care of me like His Word promises!" Then the guy launched into this thing about Billy Graham telling his congregation that "life insurance was indeed needed...." The guy then tried to persuade me of the investment value, but when one is 21 years old and invincible and also filled with the promises of God in his head, that dog ain't gonna hunt!
And ya know, I am thankful that I still have that mindset, that God's promises will keep me, my wife, and my kids healthy. Oh, my wife is insured with the company she works for, and so am I (health that is), but so far, thanks be to the Almighty and his Word, we have escaped the many calamities that are out there. Just thankful, that's all. I hope this doesn't upset anyone, but I learned this in The Way, and I am really really thankful for what I learned on that count. Since then I have seen the same things preached by many other Christian teachers as well. But for me, it started in The Way, and for that I am thankful.
Plus, I ministered to my allegedly dying father (heart attack) and a miracle occurred, and he walked out the next day completely whole. And I was bolstered by the "sogwap" attitude thing and John 14:12 and Phil 4:13 to do what I did. I baffled the Dr's when they tried to get me to leave the ICU unit and then told them that "I ain't leavin', I am going to heal my Dad". And then I prayed with authority and, badabing! Ten minutes later, everything reversed itself and he was healed. I'll never forget that, and I will never allow anyone to talk me out of the Truth that God kept His Word to me and my Daddy. I have drawn from that incident and God's promises ever since and have seen God come through time and again. Some may call me "Waybrained", but that's okay, I know what I know.... :)
After being condemned by "leadership" for years if someone in my family got a sniffle, it's refreshing to be out from under that cloud. These days, when I have a medical situation, it doesn't even occur to me to pray or otherwise seek divine intervention.
And Jonny Lingo, it's not "waybrained" to hold fast to what you have seen and experienced. A good case of waybrain is usually characterized by clinging to Way doctrine that isn't supportable by either experience or the bible. I'll let you know if you're getting waybrained ;)
Yeah, Jonny, when you're a teenager, you're bullet proof as they say. It's an amazing thing, the human body. And the mind - ever try to imagine "not being here", as in being dead? I can't, perhaps some can. Being here is the only thing I know, so even picturing not being here is, well, being here trying to not be. Here, thinking. Or something.
Insurance - yah, the Way was as HCW sed - insured. As the VPster said himself, "to the teeth"...If you slipped on an icy brick in the dead of winter and decided to sue the Way, they were covered.
HCW - do you know if the Way was self-insured, for the property and stuff? Or was it broken into some combination of policies?
Healing - mother of two, as far as I remember from '68 to '89, the Way always taught "healing" as a part of Christian life, a part of what's "available" from the "promises of God" in the bible. The bible says "by His stripes" and the Way taught "by His stripes you have already been healed (past tense). IN Way terms it was a done deal as far as being able to have healing in any instance where sickness or harm was present, and a matter of "believing the promises of God" to receive it "into manifestation". Normal state should be "whole", "complete in Him. If you get sick, whatever, prayer, steady consideration of verses or segments of the bible that would support you, as well as others praying for you and "ministering" healing were all aspects of what a person would, could, should do.
Within the simple fact of being "sick" is an odd hmmm, reality, call it, in the Way's teaching, during that period of years. Depending on how you resolved it for yourself would determine the outcome, or at least how you got through the experience.
Face it - most of us get sick or injured at one time or another. It might be a cold, or a broken leg, but stuff happens.
The Way also taught a great deal on the topic of there being "no condemnation" in Christ. That is, that all people are sinners, in a sinful state as human beings without Christ, and after accepting Christ as the "savior" from sin there's an awareness of both our own natural sinful state, and the redemption from that. But a Christian shouldn't dwell on their own sinful state and learn to understand their own sinful actions that may follow after accepting Christ - that is, that we will all fall short of being 'worthy" of our redemption because we didn't earn it, it's a "gift" from God in realization that we need a lift up as they say.
So we can learn, grow, make adjustments and if we follow Christ we can at best, do our best to live the way we understand God wants us to.
And in there is that odd reality - if there's truly "no condemnation" in Christ for sin and it's consequences....since we are fully aware the we NEED a redeemer and once accepting that redemption we live and act like "children of God", redeemed, made acceptable and generally swell in God's own eyes by Christ...then the only honest and realistic response to the inevitable realities of the human condition we're still living in would be pure, clean honest support and help. It's built into the new social order to behave that way. It's like a marriage - "in sickness and in health". A person seeks God, trusts God, regardless of the circumstances knowing He loves in all of that.
Or, it's like the marriage from Hel l. "You never pick up your underwear off the floor! You never do anything right, if you did you would't have these problems! You're so stupid!!! You don't even try, no wonder you're a mess!!! !!" Nice marriage. :unsure:
If some were sick (or more correctly, "when" some are sick), we'd understand or at least try to, we'd pray, love them, help them, do whatever we could to help. Medical, doctor, surgery, anything that helps - helps. And we want to help, because we don't condemn or throw things back in each other's face. We don't say "you suck! You're sick!" because we know - we do suck and we do get sick. So let's be good to each other and get movin' on the positive.
Believe it or not, it was that way, in the Way, at one time because the basic teaching on redemption leads a person to a thankful, gracious response to what God's done. It's the only natural response, really.
Pride comes before a fall. When people demote the basics of redemption in Christ and focus on their own self-worthiness more, ("believing action") it unleashes the dogs - pride, condemnation, fear, contention. Pretty much garden-variety stuff.
That was very nicely put Socks. Amazing how it all went swirlin down the bowl as it did... :(
I was in fact just a dips h i t teenager and happily, never really got past the simple things like Romans 10:9. Eph 3:20, Phi 4:19, Phil 4:13, III John 2, John 10:10, etc...And because of that, God did stuff in my life and I enjoyed it. But as I crept closer to the higher end of the "pile", it did get uglier, and definitely very confusing after awhile. And so, I would simply revert to what I knew worked for me and shared that with others, while trying not to condemn myself for not "being up on the latest heavy teachings" like "Atholes Of The Thpirit", etc...
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Watered Garden
I always find it interesting that the guilt trip, the condemnation, the viciousness regarding illness never seemed to apply to the biggies. Did anyone ask VPW "Do you understand what it is that you did that caused you to have ocular melanoma?" Somehow I kinda doubt it. In fact, as I recall, some fabrication was put out about his surgerybeing for some other reason, i.e., he burned his eyes recording PFAL and just got tired of the pain. After all, in order to have cancer, it is first necessary that one be POSSESSED with a spirit of cancer, right? Wouldn't want anyone to think that VP had a devil spirit.
Waysider, in our second year in FLO, there was a couple who left unexplainedly in the middle of the year. I suspect it was because one of them had health issues. However, we just came home from work one day and they were gone. No explanation. When I asked for one, I was told I could ask them if I ever saw them again.
The whole issue was rife with hypocrisy.
I wrote earlier of the person with the illness in my church...we are all wearing pink ribbons on our nametags Sunday in support!
WG
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WordWolf
Here's what I posted in the "wonderland" timeline (5.6):
=============
"vpw spent his life drinking alcoholic beverages and smoking cigarettes and cigars-
tobacco products. Although he usually did it "off-camera", many people knew some
of this. Everyone knew he at least smoked, but he seemed to chain-smoke when
"no one was watching." Furthermore, he had a "coffee cup" next to him for morning
meetings and so on-and often, the contents had nothing to do with coffee. Those who
ever commented on it (who were few enough among those who noticed) were
treated to his comments about us not being "under condemnation" and thus it wasn't
sinful, and therefore had no consequences.
However, there WERE consequences....
By 1984, the long-term exposure to alcohol-which damages internal organs, including
those that act as the body's filtration system and also damages the brain-
and long-term exposure to tobacco-which is a known cancer-causing agent
(unlike studio lights)- resulted in some permanent damage to vpw' body.
He acquired cancer of the eye and liver, and suffered a stroke.
vpw quite vocally-and often- announced that the eye damage was the result
of getting cancer from the studio lights used when filming PFAL- thus saying it was
the result of virtuous activity, and used to give the students a guilty conscience.
Once, when addressing the corps, he was speaking on personal committment to
God. He said "I gave my EYE-what are YOU willing to give?"
Further, in private, vpw was MOST disturbed that he had ANY physical problems,
especially this one. He claimed he'd never been sick or needed an aspirin EVER-
not ONE DAY in his life-before this. Not even in PRIVATE did he ever seem to admit
he'd exposed his body to carcinogens for DECADES. He had surgery that
removed the cancer-stricken eye.
The details of the stroke were COMPLETELY hidden-although there were witnesses-
and the existence of any cancer produced a problem. According to vpw's DOCTRINE,
any Christian should be able to believe sufficiently to burn out a cancer from their
body. vpw had slowly manipulated his personal image to the point that he was
frequently seen as some sort of super-Christian-which is what he wanted. However,
this meant he should have EASILY believed away his cancer.
WORSE, he'd taught in the Advanced class that, since a cancer has a life of its own
(like algae), it must be the result of devil activity. Since vpw was supposedly a
super-Christian, he should have been able to deflect such an assault easily.
However, rather than adjust his image, or correct his doctrine-which had already
hurt many other Christians-he simply hid the cause of his descent into death.
In 1985 the "Word over the World Auditorium" opened at the organizations hq on the farm.
vpw died May 20, 1985 at age 68. According to his death certificate, the cause was
cancer of the liver and of the eye. According to most people in twi at the time,
the cause was UNKNOWN. The most commonly-stated reason was
"he got tired of fighting."
In the last few months of his life, vpw visited Gartmore and spoke privately
with Chr1s Ge*r. He (CG) later claimed that his own paper which he wrote
afterwards-"the Passing of the Patriarch"-was based entirely on private
conversations with vpw. (Some people believe him, some do not.)
That paper-among other things-also claims that vpw would have been
able to "believe himself healthy" if he'd wanted to."
=========
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pond
"believe himself healthy" He just chose not to?
Sooo he was suicidal? or depressed to the point he no longer wanted to live?
that doesnt sound healthy.
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rascal
Do you want to know how much vpw and twi leaders believed in the power of prayers and healing???????
Not too darned much because nobody was notified of his illness.
A couple of days before his death we were told there were some opportunities that we could pray if we wanted. Nothing major, all pretty low key.
My goodness, why not enact 24 hour of prayer internationally?
You would have thought that they would have considered the heart felt earnest prayers of tens of thousands of believers without ceasing, as a good thing.
They obviously didn`t believe that there was any power in prayer, or that it would do any good, or in healing, or we would have been asked to pray, rather than letting vp slip away unnoticed and then making up a lie why he died, and finding a way to pin the responsibility of his death on others....
I always wondered if they believed what they taught us, or it was just the bait on the hook.
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Watered Garden
As I recall, there was a 24 hours of prayer for VPW in the week before his demise. If 2Life ever comes around these parts, she might remember.
Working as I do in a cancer hospital, I've often wondered this:
If cancer is a disease that has life of itself, how come when the patient dies, the cancer dies right along with the patient? why doesn't it just get up and take over the body that was recently vacated by the non-cancerous part of the patient?
WG
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waysider
I too, had heard that his eye problem was caused by the studio lights. It was presented in a way that would make him appear to be a martyr. Of course, it could be true because the movie making process was so new in 1967( or whenever it was) that no one really knew the long term effects of spending a couple weeks on a movie set.
As to the couple who were shown the door in the middle of the night, their exit was due to them participating in an activity that many young single people like to pursue. They were married within days of leaving but have long since divorced. There was also another couple who lost the child they were expecting due to her being required to run and do other physical activities even though she was clearly experiencing difficulties. If I recall correctly, the damage done was permanent and would have prevented the possibilty of future pregnancies. Another one of our FLO brothers suffered an injury that resulted in a very serious infection. He was advised to "get his believing up". He nearly died when sepsis set in and forced him to submit to medical treatment and a hospital stay. There were quite a few others who were shown the door too so I may be confusing these with the parties to whom you are referring. Doctors were definately seen as the enemy and it was considered a sign of spiritual weakness to even have medical insurance. Heck! Just think how much more you could ABS if only you didn't buy insurance!
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VeganXTC
Oh yeah, insurance. We were told that if we had insurance, we were believing for something bad to happen.
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TrustAndObey
Vegan,
You said, "Oh yeah, insurance. We were told that if we had insurance, we were believing for something bad to happen"
You know.. I don't ever recall anyone saying that.. But I sure used to think that when I was in.. Maybe it was inferred or something.. Hmm.. OH well.. There are so many things Health insurance is good for. Starting with lower bills when you go to the doctor for those things you can't avoid. Like check ups or physicals or having a baby..
Heaven forbid you ever get sick or your child is so perfect he/she will never get hurt.. I sure hope no one was the gullible.
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rascal
NOBODY had insurance when I was in. It was a sure sign of unbelief, negative believing.
We were told that was an invitation for satan to attack pure and simple.
I don`t know anybody who even dared to have insurance.
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potato
I remember the no insurance teachings, too. insurance companies were out to steal money we should give to the ministry, and it was negative believing to submit to such worldly idiocy.
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J0nny Ling0
When I was in The Way, there was not an emphasis on doctors "seen as the enemy". In fact, just before I went WOW in 1976, my parents wanted me to go to an oral surgeon to have my wisdom teeth out because one of them had caused me some pain, but then backed away and all was fine again. And even though it would have cost us nothing with my dad's health insurance (he was a US Public Health Service officer), I refused, because I could "believe that my wisdom teeth would come in straight, and that there would be no need for me to go to a doctor".
My mother, upon hearing this, wrote to Dr. Wierwille, and asked him if he were teaching the kids to shun the medical profession. His response was (and I still have the letter, for she gave me a copy), that "we in The Way Ministry definitely believe that God wills for us to be healed, and that God is able and willing to heal us and with a miracle if necessary. However, many of our youth in The Way are very zealous and do not use common sense at times when it comes to something like this. Tell your son Kevin to get on down to the oral surgeon and get his dental work taken care of."
And so, my mother, with a smug smile, read me that letter in an "I told you so" sort of a manner, and admonished me to take Dr. Wierwille's advice. Well, as things progressed, I never did get the job done, and later, when I was out as a WOW in So California, one of those wisdom teeth impacted in a drastic way, and I spent three days in delirium with my jaw swelled up so big that I looked like a monster. My WOW Sistahs literally sat up with me at night and during the day tending to me with a cold wash cloth while I moaned in agony. Finally, we went to a regional WOW thing at a guy named Fuzz Patstone's "Good Seed Ranch" near San Diego, where a 7th Corps guy who was a dentist saw me, looked at my tooth and promptly wrote me a prescription for anti-biotics, as well as some codeine to take away the pain. And man, was I stoned the rest of that day at the Good Seed Ranch! I should have listened to Dr. Wierwille and gone to the oral surgeon though. I would have been spared some serious agony.
And so, what does this mean? Well, I was the one who had refused a doctor's help, even though VP had tried to get me to go. So, to make the accusation that The Way treated doctors as the enemy just does not fit with my experience. Plus, that dentist who helped me ended up being the dentist at Rome City for a long time. Dan Somebody. Now, if doctors were to be seen as "the enemy" why would The Way have a DDS at Rome City taking care of everyone's teeth?
I think that the emphasis in The Way was that we were to try and rely on God first, and if we didn't believe to be healed, then go and see a doctor. I think that this is why those who were nurses many times were the ones (wo)manning the Third Aid stations at the Rock, Corps Week, and on our campuses...
Of course, this may have changed drastically after TWI II took root with LCM's draconian rule. I wouldn't be surprised by that one little bit...
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VeganXTC
Youch, Jonny! There's nothing more painful than a toothache!
I remember the same thing as you regarding most doctors. I remember going to a dentist when I was on the WOW field, and he was a "standing" PFAL grad. And I had to get a chest X-ray (why?) before I went in residence. I don't remember if I needed a complete physical. And I lost my contact lenses while I was there. I needed special permission to spend over my $30 limit, but I got it, and was able to see an eye doctor and have them replaced. But like you, this was TWI 1.
Now, if you needed a doctor for mental health, that was a whole other story. God forbid you were depressed, or bi-polar, or had any other mental health issue, while you were in TWI. I don't care if you were in TWI 1, 2, or 57, you were treated like you were lower than dirt. I don't remember anyone being encouraged to seek help from a doctor.
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WordWolf
What year was it when medical attention became OFFICIALLY known as "THIRD AID"
instead of FIRST aid on grounds? I know it was while vpw was still alive.
(First and Second aid would be "praying or getting someone else to pray."
THEN you could have an aspirin.)
Granted, locally, we didn't follow the rule for hq- we prayed while taking the aspirin,
but if hq had been the absolute standard in the late 80s that they were in the late 90s,
then, by golly, taking the aspirin would have been something done in secret.
Anyone else remembering criticisms of insurance?
I'm sure I'm not the only one who heard-and READ- that LIFE insurance should
be called DEATH insurance, and heard criticisms of having a policy.
Oh, and there was an interesting double-standard on the mental health professionals.
I know there was a guy who was one who was in who got a lot of respect-
he was the cover story on one of the Heart Magazines.
I don't know what they told T--- C------ in private about his field.
I DO know that even CONSIDERING going INTO the field, though, would get
you lectures from some of the Advanced class grads and so on.
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Twinky
I remember hearing LCM go on about, “If you can’t believe for healing, you can believe that God works in the doctor or surgeon” to fix what is necessary. Think that was on a Corps night.
But generally, I saw lots of physical needs - long-standing believers with various disabilities which made, say, mobility very difficult.
Praying for and expecting more or less instant healing wasn’t what happened, as the norm. DrtyDzn sums it up just about right.
The insurance thing I do recall: but back out on the field, my WC leaders very quickly disabused me of the idea that certain insurances were not necessary and made sure that where it ought to be obtained, it was.
Since getting out in a very short time I’ve seen more genuine miracles of healing than ever seen in the long years in TWI.
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potato
I seem to remember, or have a very strong impression, that TWI's attitude toward hospitalizations, surgery, illness changed somewhat drastically when Donna had so many problems with one of her pregnancies that she needed constant medical monitoring.
once the MOG's offspring was at issue, the Word regarding monitoring our health changed.
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tonto
Well, as far as having insurance goes, I asked about whether or not we should have it back when I took PFAL at a family camp back in 1974. I didn't have insurance, so I don't know why it was a big deal to me, other that me just trying to make sense of what they were teaching. This was during our twig groups that met during the morning...I think they called it the "hour of power" (right before "devotion with motion" exercise time). Anyhoo, when I asked that question they had a woman (who was some big-wig from hq...sorry...don't remember her name) come over to our twig to address the question. She said that if you're believing God, you don't need insurance. I followed with some what if scenerios, but the answer was the same. It didn't fully make sense to me, but that was just one of many times that I turned off my brain and chalked up my lack of understanding to my "babe in the Word-ed-ness".
As far as when first aid started being called third air...it was called that from as far back as the mid-70's, if not earlier. Emphasis always first ask God, then ask for "ministering", then if your believing wasn't there...go get medical attention...always alluding to the failure of the person to believe God.
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waterbuffalo
motherof2,
Hi! This is a great topic. My only comment is this:
Even the Amish go to doctors when they get hurt!
Goodness. Who do they (twiers) think inspired all of the medical "miracles" that we have today? The devil?
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WordWolf
And the "don't go to university and get a degree" stuff all ground to a halt in time for the
bot's kids to attend college.
These are the sort of things that make you go "Hmmmmm....."
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waysider
JonnyLingo-------My statement about doctors being seen as the enemy was specifically referring to the attitude and teachings that existed in Fellowlaborers in the mid '70's. We were in a rural setting and kept a tightly regulated schedule that stretched from 5am til midnight when all lights were to be out. To take time out to see a dentist or doctor was definately not something that was done without close scrutiny. I realize not everyone was in this situation or subjected to this kind of rigid behaviour. When anyone did see a dentist or doctor or eye doctor, it was a very big deal and many times people would "tough out " things that really would have been best served with medical attention. Sometimes the consequenses were long lasting and damaging. You had to get special permission to take time off for any kind of appointment and 50 other people were aware of your absence.
As to life insurance being called "death insurance" I heard it taught too many times to count. I think perhaps the first one I heard to use this term was Uncle Harry but I don't know if that's where the term originated.
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HCW
TWI, the ministry had insurance.
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J0nny Ling0
Waysider-
No problem. I am just talking about my experience, that's all. The folks with whom I fellowshipped weren't condescending when one opted for a doctor, but rather, did their best to cheer a person and help them to NOT be in condemnation because they didn't "get the quick miracle". I was blessed to be around a lot of loving people during my Way days. One time I smashed my left pinky finger into a bloody mess, and had to drive twenty miles through the Oregon mountains to get to the limb home back in Portland where the LC's wife, an RN, took care of me with her "doctor bag" of, among other things, surgical snips to clip off my badly damaged skin, wasted finger nail, etc. Then she put some aloe vera plant goo on it, bandaged it, prayed for me, and sent me on my way. And it healed very quickly.
When it came to health insurance, well, I came to my own conclusions on that one. I was of a "youthful invincible mindset" ( I was eighteen when I "got in"), and believing God for good health fit perfectly with the idea of "not wasting money" on something like health insurance that I wouldn't need anyway. But as time went on, marriage and kids came along, etc, I began to see the value of health insurance, thanks to my wife, a personal lines insurance agent. But even then, I didn't get lambasted by my LC for having "full coverage" on our vehicles, or what is known up here as "Alaska Kidcare" health care.
Now, Life Insurance, that's a dandy! I was totally opposed to it. I remember telling some Mutual Of Omaha guy over the phone that; "What would I need life insurance for? I have Life Assurance! For God will take care of me like His Word promises!" Then the guy launched into this thing about Billy Graham telling his congregation that "life insurance was indeed needed...." The guy then tried to persuade me of the investment value, but when one is 21 years old and invincible and also filled with the promises of God in his head, that dog ain't gonna hunt!
And ya know, I am thankful that I still have that mindset, that God's promises will keep me, my wife, and my kids healthy. Oh, my wife is insured with the company she works for, and so am I (health that is), but so far, thanks be to the Almighty and his Word, we have escaped the many calamities that are out there. Just thankful, that's all. I hope this doesn't upset anyone, but I learned this in The Way, and I am really really thankful for what I learned on that count. Since then I have seen the same things preached by many other Christian teachers as well. But for me, it started in The Way, and for that I am thankful.
Plus, I ministered to my allegedly dying father (heart attack) and a miracle occurred, and he walked out the next day completely whole. And I was bolstered by the "sogwap" attitude thing and John 14:12 and Phil 4:13 to do what I did. I baffled the Dr's when they tried to get me to leave the ICU unit and then told them that "I ain't leavin', I am going to heal my Dad". And then I prayed with authority and, badabing! Ten minutes later, everything reversed itself and he was healed. I'll never forget that, and I will never allow anyone to talk me out of the Truth that God kept His Word to me and my Daddy. I have drawn from that incident and God's promises ever since and have seen God come through time and again. Some may call me "Waybrained", but that's okay, I know what I know.... :)
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Oakspear
After being condemned by "leadership" for years if someone in my family got a sniffle, it's refreshing to be out from under that cloud. These days, when I have a medical situation, it doesn't even occur to me to pray or otherwise seek divine intervention.
And Jonny Lingo, it's not "waybrained" to hold fast to what you have seen and experienced. A good case of waybrain is usually characterized by clinging to Way doctrine that isn't supportable by either experience or the bible. I'll let you know if you're getting waybrained ;)
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socks
Yeah, Jonny, when you're a teenager, you're bullet proof as they say. It's an amazing thing, the human body. And the mind - ever try to imagine "not being here", as in being dead? I can't, perhaps some can. Being here is the only thing I know, so even picturing not being here is, well, being here trying to not be. Here, thinking. Or something.
Insurance - yah, the Way was as HCW sed - insured. As the VPster said himself, "to the teeth"...If you slipped on an icy brick in the dead of winter and decided to sue the Way, they were covered.
HCW - do you know if the Way was self-insured, for the property and stuff? Or was it broken into some combination of policies?
Healing - mother of two, as far as I remember from '68 to '89, the Way always taught "healing" as a part of Christian life, a part of what's "available" from the "promises of God" in the bible. The bible says "by His stripes" and the Way taught "by His stripes you have already been healed (past tense). IN Way terms it was a done deal as far as being able to have healing in any instance where sickness or harm was present, and a matter of "believing the promises of God" to receive it "into manifestation". Normal state should be "whole", "complete in Him. If you get sick, whatever, prayer, steady consideration of verses or segments of the bible that would support you, as well as others praying for you and "ministering" healing were all aspects of what a person would, could, should do.
Within the simple fact of being "sick" is an odd hmmm, reality, call it, in the Way's teaching, during that period of years. Depending on how you resolved it for yourself would determine the outcome, or at least how you got through the experience.
Face it - most of us get sick or injured at one time or another. It might be a cold, or a broken leg, but stuff happens.
The Way also taught a great deal on the topic of there being "no condemnation" in Christ. That is, that all people are sinners, in a sinful state as human beings without Christ, and after accepting Christ as the "savior" from sin there's an awareness of both our own natural sinful state, and the redemption from that. But a Christian shouldn't dwell on their own sinful state and learn to understand their own sinful actions that may follow after accepting Christ - that is, that we will all fall short of being 'worthy" of our redemption because we didn't earn it, it's a "gift" from God in realization that we need a lift up as they say.
So we can learn, grow, make adjustments and if we follow Christ we can at best, do our best to live the way we understand God wants us to.
And in there is that odd reality - if there's truly "no condemnation" in Christ for sin and it's consequences....since we are fully aware the we NEED a redeemer and once accepting that redemption we live and act like "children of God", redeemed, made acceptable and generally swell in God's own eyes by Christ...then the only honest and realistic response to the inevitable realities of the human condition we're still living in would be pure, clean honest support and help. It's built into the new social order to behave that way. It's like a marriage - "in sickness and in health". A person seeks God, trusts God, regardless of the circumstances knowing He loves in all of that.
Or, it's like the marriage from Hel l. "You never pick up your underwear off the floor! You never do anything right, if you did you would't have these problems! You're so stupid!!! You don't even try, no wonder you're a mess!!! !!" Nice marriage. :unsure:
If some were sick (or more correctly, "when" some are sick), we'd understand or at least try to, we'd pray, love them, help them, do whatever we could to help. Medical, doctor, surgery, anything that helps - helps. And we want to help, because we don't condemn or throw things back in each other's face. We don't say "you suck! You're sick!" because we know - we do suck and we do get sick. So let's be good to each other and get movin' on the positive.
Believe it or not, it was that way, in the Way, at one time because the basic teaching on redemption leads a person to a thankful, gracious response to what God's done. It's the only natural response, really.
Pride comes before a fall. When people demote the basics of redemption in Christ and focus on their own self-worthiness more, ("believing action") it unleashes the dogs - pride, condemnation, fear, contention. Pretty much garden-variety stuff.
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J0nny Ling0
That was very nicely put Socks. Amazing how it all went swirlin down the bowl as it did... :(
I was in fact just a dips h i t teenager and happily, never really got past the simple things like Romans 10:9. Eph 3:20, Phi 4:19, Phil 4:13, III John 2, John 10:10, etc...And because of that, God did stuff in my life and I enjoyed it. But as I crept closer to the higher end of the "pile", it did get uglier, and definitely very confusing after awhile. And so, I would simply revert to what I knew worked for me and shared that with others, while trying not to condemn myself for not "being up on the latest heavy teachings" like "Atholes Of The Thpirit", etc...
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