Ok, i am wondering what TWI's take on healing was and is. My grandmother swears they didnt believe in healing when she was in and that bothered her. But my son was burned this week on his hand and my relatives have said to me that i need to believe and that the healing has already been done..quoting the famous scripture, by His stripes we are healed, and that the healing is there for me to claim..quite frankly it is almost as if...well, it may be my fault if he needs a skin graft because the healing is there...it is just up to me to believe it into existence..This bothers me because they are leaving no room for reality here...and also forgetting that God is in control, not me...Now, i believe james 5:16...the effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much...so i believe in the power of prayer..but what do you say to the Godly person who prays and prays and things still dont go the way they asked? do TWI people think it is their fault?
Others could quote TWI's take on the subject better than I.
My take on the subject is as follows:
Col 1:24 (RSV) "Now I rejoice in my sufferings for your sake, and in my flesh I complete what is lacking in Christ's afflictions for the sake of his body, that is, the church,"
I believe that a Christian who is in the circumstance you cite can gain tremenous solace and, in fact, strength from understand what is said in the above verse of Holy Scripture.
(What I'm about to relate to you has been related here a couple of times before...but I can't find it right now. So for those of you who have heard this a thousand times too many, ignore me. :) )
A few years ago my husband was in a horrible head-on collision. It took the fire dept. an hour of using the jaws of life to get him out of the car. All that was found in the ER was a bump on his noggin and a lacerated spleen. He was kept for observation and let out the next morning.
3 days later his spleen ruptured. We lived less than 3 blocks from the hospital at the time. On the drive over to the ER my husband blacked out twice. He was 'flat line' when they got him into the ER and hooked up to all the stuff. The x-rays showed that there literally was no spleen left...it had just exploded.
The ER surgeon was already in surgery so my husband had to wait what seemed like years before he was taken up to the OR for an emergency spleenectomy. Just before they took him up, the surgeon came to the ER and told me to gather my family together and say our goodbyes because he was sure my husband wasn't going to make it.
All of this just 2 weeks after my husband was released from the hospital after having his right kidney removed due to a football-sized cancerous mass on the kidney.
During this whole time we were in a splinter group. We had attended faithfully for a couple of years...through thick and thin, good weather and bad...even though it was a 63 mile drive one way. We tithed and then some. We participated and supported the 'pastors' in every way possible. The 'pastor' had loaned us some money for transportation to and from the hospital (which was 67 miles from home) when my husband had his kidney removed...and we paid him back 15-fold. We were good little believers...and we loved (still do) and trusted (don't now) our 'pastors' just like we were taught in twi...which is what was demanded of us in the splinter group. We believed they loved us.
So when my husband suddenly felt very ill and like he was having a heart attack, his first words were, "Call T** and get him to minister to me". To which I responded, "You call T** on the way to the car! You're going to the ER!"
Anyway, since the 'pastors' lived 63 miles away it was a couple of days before they were able to visit my husband...who had survived the surgery (much to the surgeon's surprise) and was in ICU but not out of the woods by a long shot. The surgeon was sure he was going to die. When the 'pastors' got to ICU, the husband (it was a man and wife 'pastor' team) freaked out and called me out into the hall and said, "I don't know what to do." The man didn't even want to go in and talk to my husband...or pray with him or anything.
I was shocked! I just told the 'pastors' to go on home...that I'd take care of my husband. They did...I did...and it was a couple of weeks before we heard from the 'pastors' again...when my husband was released to make the 63 mile one way trip.
By then I was exhausted. I had broken my own health taking care of my husband. My mental health wasn't doing well, either. So I turned to my 'pastors'...which would normally be the place to turn, wouldn't it? I asked them, "What are we doing wrong that all of this is happening to us? What have we done?" I was crying out from physical, mental and spiritual exhaustion.
The husband 'pastor' responded, "Well, anybody can see your life is s*it."
I was immediately plunged into a depression that ended up lasting about 5 years. That 'pastor's' pronouncement on my life was the last straw for me and I laid down to die...and nearly did. Many, many GSCers remember this time in my life and helped me through the darkest hours...and still help me through. Before it was all over I had gained about 200 lbs, was bed-ridden, had spent about 1/3 of 2 years in the hospital, and was...well...dying.
I'm telling you all of this detail so that you can see grasp what I'm going to say next.
Jesus promised his disciples that they would do greater things than even He had done...and they did. TWI taught that those 'greater things' were the 'manifestations'. Many fundamentalist groups rely on the laying on of hands for their 'miracles'. Most Christians think that because Jesus did things this way, we have to do things this way.
But think about this a minute.
Every minute of every day around the world somebody is brought back to life in an ER or a MASH unit or along side the highway or after being brought out of a burning home, or in some other setting where death should have happened...maybe even did happen...but life was received.
And it was received by technology and knowledge used by schooled/trained medical professionals.
Smallpox and polio are prevented by a series of immunizations.
'Issues of the blood' are treated and cured with medicines.
Are these things not greater things than Jesus did?
And add to these things prayer? Wow! What awesomeness!
I leave you with a joke of sorts:
A poor man who worked long and hard all of his life in a back breaking job just couldn't take it any longer. "God!" he prayed in his moments of despair, "Let me win the lottery!"
After years of this desparate prayer in his desperate life, the man finally died poor and broken.
When he got to heaven he went right up to God and demanded, "God! I prayed and prayed all of those years that You would let me win the lottery. But here I am dead and that prayer never answered. Why, God? Why?"
God replied, "My son, you never bought a lottery ticket."
Use the things available to you. Use them all if need be. Prayer works. 'Believing' works. Going to the doctor works. Usually they all work together.
but what do you say to the Godly person who prays and prays and things still dont go the way they asked? do TWI people think it is their fault?
If they don't think its their fault, someone will come along to correct them.
The idea is that God is light and in Him is no darkness. He doesn't make people sick or do anything to harm them in any way. The devil comes to steal, kill, and destroy, so anything bad that happens is his doing. We have the victory over the devil in Christ, so if we can just believe, nothing bad can happen. If something bad happens it is up to the individual to change his believing. If it continues to go bad, the fault lies in the individual for not believing rightly. This makes for a very stressful life. Not much joy and an inability to comfort anyone.
oh my goodness...this is exactly what my relatives say to me constantly...all those things...i dont think its exclusive to TWI though..i know someone else who thinks like that and she belongs to a church who say the same things..you really say it perfectly. is that one of the pfal classes or something? i do not think that way at all..at all. we do live in a fallen world..if we didnt live in a sin-laden world we would not have illness or bad things..but i certainly put the power in God's hands..and with that i know that i cannot control the outcome with sheer will power to believe anything into existence. sometimes God just has other plans..i have faith alright, i believe in the power of prayer, but i know why Psalm 23 says, "Thy Will be done"..Has your belief system transformed and if so, how?
Drty Dzn-that was great=twi does put everything in a box, they have a formula for everything. A=B=C. You can't do that with God.
Guess what Motherof2 ".... happens", that's life. Ops TWI forgot about that one. Oh no, "it must be your believing", or "what were you thinking". I wasn't thinking anything. (maybe that's my problem).
Why are there doctors if we shouldn't need them. Every situation is different. It's funny how your relatives (the twi ones) have an answer for everything. So why couldn't they heal your son's hand? The bottom line is you do everything you can do. Pray for him, take him to the doctor. That's doing your best so you can be a peace to let God do the rest.
polar bear..could not agree more!! some times you might not wash your hands after coming home from the store and guess what...you might catch a cold!! but my relatives will say that the devil is after me...dont confess that, blah blah, the healing is there for the taking...well, i usually just nod my head and say..it usually takes a few days for it to go away...b ut with my son's hand..it kind of angers me..the way they are trying to put responsibility on me like if it doesnt heal without a skin graft it must be my own fault...i almost dont want to include them on my updates because of the pressure...and i know they are trying to indoctrinate me...especially since ive joined this group. plus God did things that wouldnt be considered good if you read the Bible...He is so much bigger than what they make of Him..He really is in charge!
Looking to see God's kindness in all situations is the development of faith and is part of the Holy Spirit's job as He guides us into all wisdom.
My arthritis is acting up and my knees and knuckles don't work so good, but I can still think (and from a person with two aunts who died with alzheimer's this is a nice thing for which both Fred and I are thankful).
I got an "ab roller" at St Vincent's yesterday for $10. Fred and I had a good laugh because it takes me a good while to get down on the floor -- but I am working at it.
Fred's work is not going so well, but we are not in despair but trust the the Lord will provide a way through the wilderness in this and other categories as well.
Life with the Lord is not a walk of ease, but rather at high cost. Daniel would have never had the great revelation if he wasn't in dire straits in that lion's den. Shadrach Meschac and Abednego would not have seen the Lord but they were in a fiery furnace.
The twi "walk on the Word" is not a Holy Spirit walk -- the mechanics of the stuff (the chapter and verse) may be left but the life and attendant power has been vaporized.
I was reading a few days ago where a derelict going by spoke words of comfort to a man in a quandary before the Lord. twi would never acknowledge that the Lord speaks outside of their leadership, but He does. And developing hearing ears to hear His ways is so important and counter-twi doctrine.
The healing and comfort and tenderness -- the kindness of God -- comes to where we are at in ways only He who knows the hearts of us can do.
twi, imho, is especially dangerous because the counterfeit holiness of the twi doctrine cuts off that Holy Spirit connection which is the lifeline of true vitality for a Christian.
Like our own children, God isnt responisble or in charge of our lives.
He has a will of His own that each person must seek HIm to fullfill.
A relationship and the worship of God gives us the ability to have conversations with a LORD Jesus christ who has been tempted in ALL things yet remained in the will of the Father.
It is always a choice with the heavenly creator of mankind He truly doesnt plot out each of his children life and then dictate to you as it will be done.
That type of belief systme corrupts man and isnt loving or kind or holy.
God is involved in our life as much as we seek and obey his direction and guidance.
illness and healing is not garunteed in the bible, not until the return of the Saviour of mankind to heal all of us forever in eternity.
we are mortal, and we chose to sin this is a fact that brings on illness and issues in life.. this is why we have a Saviour.
A good example of the difference between the twi world view and a kindhearted world view is the reaction to James Kim tragedy.
People are thankful that Kati and the kids are alive. The memorial tributes by both his employer and coworkers is tender, admiring, helpful, and respectful. Also the privacy of Kati and the kids is protected and respected.
To anyone still in twi: There is a great difference between the kindhearted dealing of James Kim and his death and what happened to CoolWaters and to so many others (me included) when tragedy and personal heartbreak occurred when we were in twi.
Don't be surprised, just expect it. In retrospect, our (those who have been burned -- either badly or received only minor burns -- by twi) our big error is that we expected personal kindness from twi, even though we watched hardhearted cold-blooded reactions from twi in the past.
in pfal, vpw took the example of a sad accident to forever brand people with a giant red A (for apistia) if something bad happens to them.
it's the story of the mother with the young son who was hit by a car on the way home from school. the mother wasn't there to pick him up, and she was apparently under much stress in her life and worried about taking care of her son. the boy died, according to the story (which may or may not have ever happened, given vpw's character) and vpw pronounced that it was the mother's fear that killed her son.
therefore, (by using this awful circumstance to build upon doctinally) if something bad happens to you or someone you're responsible for, it happened because you have fear. he further taught that fear is the opposite of believing, so that if you don't get what God promised, it's because you're afraid.
I have found like so many other's that this is not the case.
fear is bad, yes. it causes us to sometimes make good choices, sometimes bad ones, and sometimes it paralyzes us when we should move. it does not prevent God from taking care of us, it just makes his job a little harder (but hey, he's GOD) and the evidence of bad things in our lives doesn't point to fear as the cause. if it was as black and white simple as they teach in TWI, vpw wouldn't have died so young from cancer.
I don't think I read your story before Cool. So sorry. Those Bas@#$#!
I have never been so blessed with love and prayer warriors since LEAVING HELL, I mean, the Way!
We had 3 incidents in a week in my connect class, all life threatening, and everyone was at the hospitals, praying, visiting, meals, sending cards, encouraging, praying..........oh I said, that, and praying.........
GOD IS NOT INTO MAGIC FORMULAS.
Stuff happens,(oops I slipped on ice) sometimes we make mistakes too (oops I forgot to deposit my check, so one bounced)..........sometimes, things do happen that are divine in nature...........(ooopps I am pregnant, but I am still a virgin)
but, either way, they all demand the same response. Love and prayer.
Mother of 2~ my little one just got a horrible burn also, all I could do was run for the ice and bandaids and kisses and prayers. So, give and extra kiss to your little one from me.
Rom 12:5 is another one of those verses they cut out of their Bible because it doesn't fit their doctrine.
CoolWaters, I, too, had not read your story before. So sorry. So glad you found this place so that you could see not all are like the twi-ers you knew.
quite frankly it is almost as if...well, it may be my fault if he needs a skin graft because the healing is there...it is just up to me to believe it into existence..This bothers me because they are leaving no room for reality here...and also forgetting that God is in control, not me...Now, i believe james 5:16...the effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much...so i believe in the power of prayer..but what do you say to the Godly person who prays and prays and things still dont go the way they asked? do TWI people think it is their fault?
YES.
If any misfortune befalls you, it's your fault, because your believing is supposed to act like a
forcefield and bounce all problems away from you. If one gets through, that's a lapse on your
part.
Please note they never apply this to vpw dying of cancer before reaching age 70,
which at least would be internally-consistent.
Leadership is never blamed like this. Instead, it's the result of people AROUND the
leader failing. The leader is NEVER at fault.
==========
This whole doctrine is a mainstay of the Word-Faith Movement,
as embodied by EW Kenyon and championed by preachers like Kenneth Hagin
This is a great example of why I am sooo thankful to be out of TWI. At age 49, after some unimaginable TWI-produced stress, I was diagnosed with insulin dependent diabetes (Type I) at age 49. A sister-in-law of the then MOGFODART asked me"Do you understand what it is that you did that caused this to happen to you?"
In other words, I had committed a sin that caused me to become diabetic. God withdrew His hand of protection and love from me because I had offended Him. Later another person told me that my sin was that I did not believe that this MOGFODART (Man of God for our day and time and hour) was in fact the MOG for our day and time and hour unto the entire world! (He was a hysterical, hateful, hate-filled, mean, lying vicious, adulterous psycho is what he was.) I didn't believe it, either, because he was not teaching the love of God and seemed to me to being trying to replace Jesus Christ with the worship of his own not too wonderful self).
THIS IS COMPLETE HOGWASH! It is false doctrine and not to be taken seriously.
They completely overlooked the fact that diabetes is an inherited disease that runs in my family, that I was stressed to the max. They looked down on me and told me never to mention it to anyone new. These are truly screwed up vicious people when it comes to health and healing.
I do believe God heals. I don't understand a lot of it, though, since I took off my TWI-colored glasses. But I would never ever believe for a minute that God makes people sick to punish them or that someone's child was harmed because of their "unbelief." I also thank God every day for whoever invented recombinant DNA insulin, for the companies that manufacture it, for my glucometer, and for my grouchy endocrinologist.
Look, we live on the earth. Things aren't perfect here. Neither are we. We do the best we can and thank God for doctors, medications, etc. Don't let anyone criticize you or your child who got burned. My opinion is that this whole false doctrine is designed to keep people off balance, feeling guilty, and trying to perfect the flesh, which will never be done on this earth, and could not ever be done to TWI's satisfaction.
Researchers have just discovered that diabetes is caused by over consumption of Swiss chard and oat grotes(remember those?--------shudder!) In addition, the condition may be aggravated by attending seemingly endless boring meetings. :)
Seriously, after we were booted from FWC and went to Washington, the stress level was unimaginable. I've written before we were told to abandon our son, my husband couldn't get a decent job, we were miles and miles from any family, and were regarded with suspicion by just about everybody. I was thrown under the auspices of a woman with OCD (I know now) who treated me like a slave. I had to babysit her kids for nothing while she and her psycho husband went to WC meetings, and clean her house while I was at it. She ordered me to take my son off his ADHD medication and said there was no such thing, he just needed more severe and frequent beatings. When I started losing weight and feeling exhausted and living on ice water, I started to ask her for a doctor's name and she blew me off - twice. So I just thought since she was such a most exceedingly great and mighty and omniescent woman of God, if I needed to see a doctor, God would tell her to tell me. I was ashamed to say I was sick and needed help. My husband was under such stress, I didn't want to bother him, and besides, we had also been told the reason for all our "problems" was that I was not a sufficiently meek, humble, submissive, subjected and obedient wife. I honestly knew I was dying, but I thought that was probably God's will, since I was so unworthy of inhaling oxygen on the same planet with this most exceedingly wonderful woman of God, let alone God's sacred red thread of gloriously faithful believers. I thought she could find a wife for my husbnad who was worthy of him, who would be the kind of woman I would never be, who could cross the bridge of believing into the promised land of the present truth with him, who would understand the sacred teachings of the great and mighty man of God who was leading His saints forth to cross this bridge.
When we went to the ROA that year, I was almost blind, and too sick to walk more than a few feet. All I wanted to do was drink water and sleep. Tuesday of the Rock John took me to Third Aid. They had a fit and I was taken to the ER in St. Mary's, where my blood sugar was 702. I spent over a week in the hospital. About a dozen believers came to see me. How many offered to pray for healing with me? Zero!
When we got backto Washington, the husband of this woman reproved me, saying, "You could have died in that tent, and that would have made The Ministry look bad!"
Wouldn't have done me a lot of good, either.
I share this not to elicit pity; I am doing okay. I want you to see, Mom of 2, that TWI is cold and hardhearted. The whole attitude toward me after 8/94 was that my chronic illness made the ministry look bad. Not one person hugged me and said, "Honey, let's pray for your healing." Not one person said "Thank God you're okay. I'm so sorry I didn't pay better attention to you when you were suffering all summer long with this." Well, actually, my husband said that last, but he's supposed to. The most exceedingly great and mighty men and women of God who were the leadership of TWI in Everett WA for that day and for that time and for that hour were mean and hateful and accused me of making the ministry "look bad." Did they think I wanted to be diabetic? Believe me, I wouldn't wish IDDM on my worst enemy.
IF you are an unswervingly faithful, unquestioningly loyal, and instantaneously obedient follower of TWI, you will have perfect health, perfect marriage, perfect children, perfect everything. If life happens at some stage of the game, you get sick, your kid flunks math, your spouse loses a job, YOU ARE UNWORTHY of the privilege of calling yourself a follower of TWI because TWI is perfect and its followers must also be perfect.
Now all this is simple: They don't have the answers. They don't follow God. They don't love Jesus. They really don't know much of anything about the Bible. So they bitch and bluster and throw out anyone with problems. What a contrast to most churches! At my church, we are in the business of helping people who are flawed and imperfect, (just like ourselves) who are helpless without Jesus Christ as their Saviour and know it. We just had a member diagnosed with a nasty disease. Did we rail and rant at her? Did we ask her if she understands what it is that she did that caused this to happen to her?
HE11 NO!
We don't do that. Did Jesus do that? Nope. Is He our example? Yep. Did He love and heal and encourage people? All the blessed time.
yeah, at my church we band together, pray, hug, bring meals, call to check on each other..and rarely, rarely...give advice! ive never had anyone lecture me on having faith or anything..they just listen..its my realitves that call to give me the formula for whatever it is and they rearely check back in...its strange. except my grandma...she is really coming around lately..when i told her my son was going to need a skin graft..she said thats ok..God uses all kindsof people and different means to heal and He still sits on the throne..shes coming around alright and im so glad!
If we lived in the NW corner of this lovely state, I would pay to have them printed up and pass them out to everyone up there who dislikes that little band of frauds as much as I do (and there are plenty).
PS: I actually got nauseated writing the above, it was so horrible.
The struggle to get that evil twi thinking pattern about health out of one's brain is a long, difficult struggle for many.
I think of Pat Roberge...especially when it comes to diabetes. He often told me that he knew twi was praying for his death. He said that he got many emails and messages from twit brains saying this to him! Although he valiently fought the mentality, it ate at him often. I cry to think of how he spent so much of his energy getting that twi crap out of his head when he needed his energy to heal.
Even now...all these years out of twi and a twi splinter group...my healing process is slowed fighting off the echos of their evil curses.
I'm going to put on some music and breathe through my nausea now...
this stuff makes me so sad... no one should ever have been treated like that. I had similar experiences with their hard-heartedness, but thank God I was not faced with the possibility of death. I don't think I would have made it.
He often told me that he knew twi was praying for his death. He said that he got many emails and messages from twit brains saying this to him!
Good Night! What's being taught in TWI? When I was in we would have never prayed for someone to die, because then we would be praying to the wrong god. Now, its ok to pray for the death of someone? TWI gets more and more bizarre every day.
Motherof2----I suspect your relatives have been in TWI for a long time and seen many changes regarding the subject of healing. Initially, at least when I got involved in'71(?), There was not so much emphasis placed on what you had done wrong (though the idea was already present), but on seeing God as some sort of magician. In the first twig I attended there was a person who was missing a limb. What a victory it would be if only we and the person could believe for a new limb to sprout forth! There was a person in a neighboring fellowship who was a quadraplegic. No problem! Our magic formula of believing and confessing would surely right this situation. A friend of mine developed a very serious and acute medical condition. Leadership (at HQ level) scorned his fears and ridiculed his desire to deal with the situation medically. Consequenty, he died in short order. Of course, it was really his own fault for not being able to believe.( I'm hoping you see the sarcasm in that last sentence.) I could cited even more examples including one that involved me personally but I think I have made my point. If your relatives have been around since those days, that kind of thinking is probably deeply embedded in their core beliefs. As a parent, you have to do what is best for your child and that includes seeking professional medical help. If they are so concerned that God must deal out the healing let them know that you would welcome their prayers as a supplement. Be prepared though to hear them tell you the "burden of believing" falls on the parent. It used to be that some OT scripture was used to supposedly "prove" this. Prayer can work wonders but not when it is bridled by the conviction that nothing else should interfer. Children are a blessing. We must do whatever it takes to protect and nuture them whether it be medical,spiritual or a combination of both. (Just my opinion)
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Others could quote TWI's take on the subject better than I.
My take on the subject is as follows:
Col 1:24 (RSV) "Now I rejoice in my sufferings for your sake, and in my flesh I complete what is lacking in Christ's afflictions for the sake of his body, that is, the church,"
I believe that a Christian who is in the circumstance you cite can gain tremenous solace and, in fact, strength from understand what is said in the above verse of Holy Scripture.
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CoolWaters
(What I'm about to relate to you has been related here a couple of times before...but I can't find it right now. So for those of you who have heard this a thousand times too many, ignore me. :) )
A few years ago my husband was in a horrible head-on collision. It took the fire dept. an hour of using the jaws of life to get him out of the car. All that was found in the ER was a bump on his noggin and a lacerated spleen. He was kept for observation and let out the next morning.
3 days later his spleen ruptured. We lived less than 3 blocks from the hospital at the time. On the drive over to the ER my husband blacked out twice. He was 'flat line' when they got him into the ER and hooked up to all the stuff. The x-rays showed that there literally was no spleen left...it had just exploded.
The ER surgeon was already in surgery so my husband had to wait what seemed like years before he was taken up to the OR for an emergency spleenectomy. Just before they took him up, the surgeon came to the ER and told me to gather my family together and say our goodbyes because he was sure my husband wasn't going to make it.
All of this just 2 weeks after my husband was released from the hospital after having his right kidney removed due to a football-sized cancerous mass on the kidney.
During this whole time we were in a splinter group. We had attended faithfully for a couple of years...through thick and thin, good weather and bad...even though it was a 63 mile drive one way. We tithed and then some. We participated and supported the 'pastors' in every way possible. The 'pastor' had loaned us some money for transportation to and from the hospital (which was 67 miles from home) when my husband had his kidney removed...and we paid him back 15-fold. We were good little believers...and we loved (still do) and trusted (don't now) our 'pastors' just like we were taught in twi...which is what was demanded of us in the splinter group. We believed they loved us.
So when my husband suddenly felt very ill and like he was having a heart attack, his first words were, "Call T** and get him to minister to me". To which I responded, "You call T** on the way to the car! You're going to the ER!"
Anyway, since the 'pastors' lived 63 miles away it was a couple of days before they were able to visit my husband...who had survived the surgery (much to the surgeon's surprise) and was in ICU but not out of the woods by a long shot. The surgeon was sure he was going to die. When the 'pastors' got to ICU, the husband (it was a man and wife 'pastor' team) freaked out and called me out into the hall and said, "I don't know what to do." The man didn't even want to go in and talk to my husband...or pray with him or anything.
I was shocked! I just told the 'pastors' to go on home...that I'd take care of my husband. They did...I did...and it was a couple of weeks before we heard from the 'pastors' again...when my husband was released to make the 63 mile one way trip.
By then I was exhausted. I had broken my own health taking care of my husband. My mental health wasn't doing well, either. So I turned to my 'pastors'...which would normally be the place to turn, wouldn't it? I asked them, "What are we doing wrong that all of this is happening to us? What have we done?" I was crying out from physical, mental and spiritual exhaustion.
The husband 'pastor' responded, "Well, anybody can see your life is s*it."
I was immediately plunged into a depression that ended up lasting about 5 years. That 'pastor's' pronouncement on my life was the last straw for me and I laid down to die...and nearly did. Many, many GSCers remember this time in my life and helped me through the darkest hours...and still help me through. Before it was all over I had gained about 200 lbs, was bed-ridden, had spent about 1/3 of 2 years in the hospital, and was...well...dying.
I'm telling you all of this detail so that you can see grasp what I'm going to say next.
Jesus promised his disciples that they would do greater things than even He had done...and they did. TWI taught that those 'greater things' were the 'manifestations'. Many fundamentalist groups rely on the laying on of hands for their 'miracles'. Most Christians think that because Jesus did things this way, we have to do things this way.
But think about this a minute.
Every minute of every day around the world somebody is brought back to life in an ER or a MASH unit or along side the highway or after being brought out of a burning home, or in some other setting where death should have happened...maybe even did happen...but life was received.
And it was received by technology and knowledge used by schooled/trained medical professionals.
Smallpox and polio are prevented by a series of immunizations.
'Issues of the blood' are treated and cured with medicines.
Are these things not greater things than Jesus did?
And add to these things prayer? Wow! What awesomeness!
I leave you with a joke of sorts:
A poor man who worked long and hard all of his life in a back breaking job just couldn't take it any longer. "God!" he prayed in his moments of despair, "Let me win the lottery!"
After years of this desparate prayer in his desperate life, the man finally died poor and broken.
When he got to heaven he went right up to God and demanded, "God! I prayed and prayed all of those years that You would let me win the lottery. But here I am dead and that prayer never answered. Why, God? Why?"
God replied, "My son, you never bought a lottery ticket."
Use the things available to you. Use them all if need be. Prayer works. 'Believing' works. Going to the doctor works. Usually they all work together.
:)
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DrtyDzn
The idea is that God is light and in Him is no darkness. He doesn't make people sick or do anything to harm them in any way. The devil comes to steal, kill, and destroy, so anything bad that happens is his doing. We have the victory over the devil in Christ, so if we can just believe, nothing bad can happen. If something bad happens it is up to the individual to change his believing. If it continues to go bad, the fault lies in the individual for not believing rightly. This makes for a very stressful life. Not much joy and an inability to comfort anyone.
And that's the way it was.
Jerry
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motherof2
oh my goodness...this is exactly what my relatives say to me constantly...all those things...i dont think its exclusive to TWI though..i know someone else who thinks like that and she belongs to a church who say the same things..you really say it perfectly. is that one of the pfal classes or something? i do not think that way at all..at all. we do live in a fallen world..if we didnt live in a sin-laden world we would not have illness or bad things..but i certainly put the power in God's hands..and with that i know that i cannot control the outcome with sheer will power to believe anything into existence. sometimes God just has other plans..i have faith alright, i believe in the power of prayer, but i know why Psalm 23 says, "Thy Will be done"..Has your belief system transformed and if so, how?
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polar bear
Drty Dzn-that was great=twi does put everything in a box, they have a formula for everything. A=B=C. You can't do that with God.
Guess what Motherof2 ".... happens", that's life. Ops TWI forgot about that one. Oh no, "it must be your believing", or "what were you thinking". I wasn't thinking anything. (maybe that's my problem).
Why are there doctors if we shouldn't need them. Every situation is different. It's funny how your relatives (the twi ones) have an answer for everything. So why couldn't they heal your son's hand? The bottom line is you do everything you can do. Pray for him, take him to the doctor. That's doing your best so you can be a peace to let God do the rest.
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motherof2
polar bear..could not agree more!! some times you might not wash your hands after coming home from the store and guess what...you might catch a cold!! but my relatives will say that the devil is after me...dont confess that, blah blah, the healing is there for the taking...well, i usually just nod my head and say..it usually takes a few days for it to go away...b ut with my son's hand..it kind of angers me..the way they are trying to put responsibility on me like if it doesnt heal without a skin graft it must be my own fault...i almost dont want to include them on my updates because of the pressure...and i know they are trying to indoctrinate me...especially since ive joined this group. plus God did things that wouldnt be considered good if you read the Bible...He is so much bigger than what they make of Him..He really is in charge!
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Kit Sober
Looking to see God's kindness in all situations is the development of faith and is part of the Holy Spirit's job as He guides us into all wisdom.
My arthritis is acting up and my knees and knuckles don't work so good, but I can still think (and from a person with two aunts who died with alzheimer's this is a nice thing for which both Fred and I are thankful).
I got an "ab roller" at St Vincent's yesterday for $10. Fred and I had a good laugh because it takes me a good while to get down on the floor -- but I am working at it.
Fred's work is not going so well, but we are not in despair but trust the the Lord will provide a way through the wilderness in this and other categories as well.
Life with the Lord is not a walk of ease, but rather at high cost. Daniel would have never had the great revelation if he wasn't in dire straits in that lion's den. Shadrach Meschac and Abednego would not have seen the Lord but they were in a fiery furnace.
The twi "walk on the Word" is not a Holy Spirit walk -- the mechanics of the stuff (the chapter and verse) may be left but the life and attendant power has been vaporized.
I was reading a few days ago where a derelict going by spoke words of comfort to a man in a quandary before the Lord. twi would never acknowledge that the Lord speaks outside of their leadership, but He does. And developing hearing ears to hear His ways is so important and counter-twi doctrine.
The healing and comfort and tenderness -- the kindness of God -- comes to where we are at in ways only He who knows the hearts of us can do.
twi, imho, is especially dangerous because the counterfeit holiness of the twi doctrine cuts off that Holy Spirit connection which is the lifeline of true vitality for a Christian.
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pond
Like our own children, God isnt responisble or in charge of our lives.
He has a will of His own that each person must seek HIm to fullfill.
A relationship and the worship of God gives us the ability to have conversations with a LORD Jesus christ who has been tempted in ALL things yet remained in the will of the Father.
It is always a choice with the heavenly creator of mankind He truly doesnt plot out each of his children life and then dictate to you as it will be done.
That type of belief systme corrupts man and isnt loving or kind or holy.
God is involved in our life as much as we seek and obey his direction and guidance.
illness and healing is not garunteed in the bible, not until the return of the Saviour of mankind to heal all of us forever in eternity.
we are mortal, and we chose to sin this is a fact that brings on illness and issues in life.. this is why we have a Saviour.
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Kit Sober
A good example of the difference between the twi world view and a kindhearted world view is the reaction to James Kim tragedy.
People are thankful that Kati and the kids are alive. The memorial tributes by both his employer and coworkers is tender, admiring, helpful, and respectful. Also the privacy of Kati and the kids is protected and respected.
CNET In Memorium tribute to James Kim
To anyone still in twi: There is a great difference between the kindhearted dealing of James Kim and his death and what happened to CoolWaters and to so many others (me included) when tragedy and personal heartbreak occurred when we were in twi.
Don't be surprised, just expect it. In retrospect, our (those who have been burned -- either badly or received only minor burns -- by twi) our big error is that we expected personal kindness from twi, even though we watched hardhearted cold-blooded reactions from twi in the past.
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motherof2
good point kit and pond...what about the scripture that says we are to mourn with those who mourn? Rom. 12:15
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potato
in pfal, vpw took the example of a sad accident to forever brand people with a giant red A (for apistia) if something bad happens to them.
it's the story of the mother with the young son who was hit by a car on the way home from school. the mother wasn't there to pick him up, and she was apparently under much stress in her life and worried about taking care of her son. the boy died, according to the story (which may or may not have ever happened, given vpw's character) and vpw pronounced that it was the mother's fear that killed her son.
therefore, (by using this awful circumstance to build upon doctinally) if something bad happens to you or someone you're responsible for, it happened because you have fear. he further taught that fear is the opposite of believing, so that if you don't get what God promised, it's because you're afraid.
I have found like so many other's that this is not the case.
fear is bad, yes. it causes us to sometimes make good choices, sometimes bad ones, and sometimes it paralyzes us when we should move. it does not prevent God from taking care of us, it just makes his job a little harder (but hey, he's GOD) and the evidence of bad things in our lives doesn't point to fear as the cause. if it was as black and white simple as they teach in TWI, vpw wouldn't have died so young from cancer.
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bliss
I don't think I read your story before Cool. So sorry. Those Bas@#$#!
I have never been so blessed with love and prayer warriors since LEAVING HELL, I mean, the Way!
We had 3 incidents in a week in my connect class, all life threatening, and everyone was at the hospitals, praying, visiting, meals, sending cards, encouraging, praying..........oh I said, that, and praying.........
GOD IS NOT INTO MAGIC FORMULAS.
Stuff happens,(oops I slipped on ice) sometimes we make mistakes too (oops I forgot to deposit my check, so one bounced)..........sometimes, things do happen that are divine in nature...........(ooopps I am pregnant, but I am still a virgin)
but, either way, they all demand the same response. Love and prayer.
Mother of 2~ my little one just got a horrible burn also, all I could do was run for the ice and bandaids and kisses and prayers. So, give and extra kiss to your little one from me.
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Kit Sober
Rom 12:5 is another one of those verses they cut out of their Bible because it doesn't fit their doctrine.
CoolWaters, I, too, had not read your story before. So sorry. So glad you found this place so that you could see not all are like the twi-ers you knew.
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WordWolf
YES.
If any misfortune befalls you, it's your fault, because your believing is supposed to act like a
forcefield and bounce all problems away from you. If one gets through, that's a lapse on your
part.
Please note they never apply this to vpw dying of cancer before reaching age 70,
which at least would be internally-consistent.
Leadership is never blamed like this. Instead, it's the result of people AROUND the
leader failing. The leader is NEVER at fault.
==========
This whole doctrine is a mainstay of the Word-Faith Movement,
as embodied by EW Kenyon and championed by preachers like Kenneth Hagin
(who plagiarizes Kenyon all the time.)
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Watered Garden
Mother of 2,
This is a great example of why I am sooo thankful to be out of TWI. At age 49, after some unimaginable TWI-produced stress, I was diagnosed with insulin dependent diabetes (Type I) at age 49. A sister-in-law of the then MOGFODART asked me"Do you understand what it is that you did that caused this to happen to you?"
In other words, I had committed a sin that caused me to become diabetic. God withdrew His hand of protection and love from me because I had offended Him. Later another person told me that my sin was that I did not believe that this MOGFODART (Man of God for our day and time and hour) was in fact the MOG for our day and time and hour unto the entire world! (He was a hysterical, hateful, hate-filled, mean, lying vicious, adulterous psycho is what he was.) I didn't believe it, either, because he was not teaching the love of God and seemed to me to being trying to replace Jesus Christ with the worship of his own not too wonderful self).
THIS IS COMPLETE HOGWASH! It is false doctrine and not to be taken seriously.
They completely overlooked the fact that diabetes is an inherited disease that runs in my family, that I was stressed to the max. They looked down on me and told me never to mention it to anyone new. These are truly screwed up vicious people when it comes to health and healing.
I do believe God heals. I don't understand a lot of it, though, since I took off my TWI-colored glasses. But I would never ever believe for a minute that God makes people sick to punish them or that someone's child was harmed because of their "unbelief." I also thank God every day for whoever invented recombinant DNA insulin, for the companies that manufacture it, for my glucometer, and for my grouchy endocrinologist.
Look, we live on the earth. Things aren't perfect here. Neither are we. We do the best we can and thank God for doctors, medications, etc. Don't let anyone criticize you or your child who got burned. My opinion is that this whole false doctrine is designed to keep people off balance, feeling guilty, and trying to perfect the flesh, which will never be done on this earth, and could not ever be done to TWI's satisfaction.
WG
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waysider
WG
Breaking news!
Researchers have just discovered that diabetes is caused by over consumption of Swiss chard and oat grotes(remember those?--------shudder!) In addition, the condition may be aggravated by attending seemingly endless boring meetings. :)
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Watered Garden
Waysider,
Must have been a long term side effect!
Seriously, after we were booted from FWC and went to Washington, the stress level was unimaginable. I've written before we were told to abandon our son, my husband couldn't get a decent job, we were miles and miles from any family, and were regarded with suspicion by just about everybody. I was thrown under the auspices of a woman with OCD (I know now) who treated me like a slave. I had to babysit her kids for nothing while she and her psycho husband went to WC meetings, and clean her house while I was at it. She ordered me to take my son off his ADHD medication and said there was no such thing, he just needed more severe and frequent beatings. When I started losing weight and feeling exhausted and living on ice water, I started to ask her for a doctor's name and she blew me off - twice. So I just thought since she was such a most exceedingly great and mighty and omniescent woman of God, if I needed to see a doctor, God would tell her to tell me. I was ashamed to say I was sick and needed help. My husband was under such stress, I didn't want to bother him, and besides, we had also been told the reason for all our "problems" was that I was not a sufficiently meek, humble, submissive, subjected and obedient wife. I honestly knew I was dying, but I thought that was probably God's will, since I was so unworthy of inhaling oxygen on the same planet with this most exceedingly wonderful woman of God, let alone God's sacred red thread of gloriously faithful believers. I thought she could find a wife for my husbnad who was worthy of him, who would be the kind of woman I would never be, who could cross the bridge of believing into the promised land of the present truth with him, who would understand the sacred teachings of the great and mighty man of God who was leading His saints forth to cross this bridge.
When we went to the ROA that year, I was almost blind, and too sick to walk more than a few feet. All I wanted to do was drink water and sleep. Tuesday of the Rock John took me to Third Aid. They had a fit and I was taken to the ER in St. Mary's, where my blood sugar was 702. I spent over a week in the hospital. About a dozen believers came to see me. How many offered to pray for healing with me? Zero!
When we got backto Washington, the husband of this woman reproved me, saying, "You could have died in that tent, and that would have made The Ministry look bad!"
Wouldn't have done me a lot of good, either.
I share this not to elicit pity; I am doing okay. I want you to see, Mom of 2, that TWI is cold and hardhearted. The whole attitude toward me after 8/94 was that my chronic illness made the ministry look bad. Not one person hugged me and said, "Honey, let's pray for your healing." Not one person said "Thank God you're okay. I'm so sorry I didn't pay better attention to you when you were suffering all summer long with this." Well, actually, my husband said that last, but he's supposed to. The most exceedingly great and mighty men and women of God who were the leadership of TWI in Everett WA for that day and for that time and for that hour were mean and hateful and accused me of making the ministry "look bad." Did they think I wanted to be diabetic? Believe me, I wouldn't wish IDDM on my worst enemy.
IF you are an unswervingly faithful, unquestioningly loyal, and instantaneously obedient follower of TWI, you will have perfect health, perfect marriage, perfect children, perfect everything. If life happens at some stage of the game, you get sick, your kid flunks math, your spouse loses a job, YOU ARE UNWORTHY of the privilege of calling yourself a follower of TWI because TWI is perfect and its followers must also be perfect.
Now all this is simple: They don't have the answers. They don't follow God. They don't love Jesus. They really don't know much of anything about the Bible. So they bitch and bluster and throw out anyone with problems. What a contrast to most churches! At my church, we are in the business of helping people who are flawed and imperfect, (just like ourselves) who are helpless without Jesus Christ as their Saviour and know it. We just had a member diagnosed with a nasty disease. Did we rail and rant at her? Did we ask her if she understands what it is that she did that caused this to happen to her?
HE11 NO!
We don't do that. Did Jesus do that? Nope. Is He our example? Yep. Did He love and heal and encourage people? All the blessed time.
It's really simple when you look at it that way.
WG
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motherof2
yeah, at my church we band together, pray, hug, bring meals, call to check on each other..and rarely, rarely...give advice! ive never had anyone lecture me on having faith or anything..they just listen..its my realitves that call to give me the formula for whatever it is and they rearely check back in...its strange. except my grandma...she is really coming around lately..when i told her my son was going to need a skin graft..she said thats ok..God uses all kindsof people and different means to heal and He still sits on the throne..shes coming around alright and im so glad!
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CoolWaters
{{{{Watered Garden}}}}
As I read your post I identified with so much of it!!!!! That part about dying...omg...some of my thoughts exactly!!!!
What a horrible nightmare of a crappy little cult of wannabes we were in!
I take liberties with a popular bumper sticker to say: No Jesus, know twi. Know Jesus, no twi.
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Watered Garden
Coolness,
If we lived in the NW corner of this lovely state, I would pay to have them printed up and pass them out to everyone up there who dislikes that little band of frauds as much as I do (and there are plenty).
PS: I actually got nauseated writing the above, it was so horrible.
WG
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CoolWaters
The struggle to get that evil twi thinking pattern about health out of one's brain is a long, difficult struggle for many.
I think of Pat Roberge...especially when it comes to diabetes. He often told me that he knew twi was praying for his death. He said that he got many emails and messages from twit brains saying this to him! Although he valiently fought the mentality, it ate at him often. I cry to think of how he spent so much of his energy getting that twi crap out of his head when he needed his energy to heal.
Even now...all these years out of twi and a twi splinter group...my healing process is slowed fighting off the echos of their evil curses.
I'm going to put on some music and breathe through my nausea now...
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potato
this stuff makes me so sad... no one should ever have been treated like that. I had similar experiences with their hard-heartedness, but thank God I was not faced with the possibility of death. I don't think I would have made it.
thank God we are all out.
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VeganXTC
Good Night! What's being taught in TWI? When I was in we would have never prayed for someone to die, because then we would be praying to the wrong god. Now, its ok to pray for the death of someone? TWI gets more and more bizarre every day.
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waysider
Motherof2----I suspect your relatives have been in TWI for a long time and seen many changes regarding the subject of healing. Initially, at least when I got involved in'71(?), There was not so much emphasis placed on what you had done wrong (though the idea was already present), but on seeing God as some sort of magician. In the first twig I attended there was a person who was missing a limb. What a victory it would be if only we and the person could believe for a new limb to sprout forth! There was a person in a neighboring fellowship who was a quadraplegic. No problem! Our magic formula of believing and confessing would surely right this situation. A friend of mine developed a very serious and acute medical condition. Leadership (at HQ level) scorned his fears and ridiculed his desire to deal with the situation medically. Consequenty, he died in short order. Of course, it was really his own fault for not being able to believe.( I'm hoping you see the sarcasm in that last sentence.) I could cited even more examples including one that involved me personally but I think I have made my point. If your relatives have been around since those days, that kind of thinking is probably deeply embedded in their core beliefs. As a parent, you have to do what is best for your child and that includes seeking professional medical help. If they are so concerned that God must deal out the healing let them know that you would welcome their prayers as a supplement. Be prepared though to hear them tell you the "burden of believing" falls on the parent. It used to be that some OT scripture was used to supposedly "prove" this. Prayer can work wonders but not when it is bridled by the conviction that nothing else should interfer. Children are a blessing. We must do whatever it takes to protect and nuture them whether it be medical,spiritual or a combination of both. (Just my opinion)
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