Yes, when you first join, they fall all over you. Everything is great.
But it's like a trap, the longer you are in, the more indoctinated (seduced) you get. There are things like "we're in Zion the fortress of God, if you leave you are in a wilderness, the world is a wilderness". So you think, if I leave I'm outside of the fort.
Then you get the doctrine "the more committed you are the more rewards you will get". So you move up. And the more you move up the more you see the corruption. Many have not seen this part but it's there I assure you. I worked with most right up to the top. Then you get to the point where you have to make a choice.
Will you stay and bear with all the crap, or lose all your so called friends, be called a cop out and be ostrasized.
If you stay you start to get comfortable with the corruption and eventually start to get along with it, then after a while you don't even notice it. But it so sublte many aren't even aware it's happenig.
The other choice it to say SCREW IT! Let the good times roll!
Linda Z-------I agree with you 100% about Cleveland in the early '70's. We had some really great people, fellowshipping because that's what they wanted to do. As I'm sure you know, several have departed this life. It would be hard to imagine an area that size sustaining a branch today and yet we had not one but two. There was a genuine concern for each others welfare and we had lots of good times without the blessings or interference of HQ.There weren't very many children back then except for yours, Michelles', Jim and Jackies' and a few others that escape me at the moment. Heck, we weren't too much more than kids ourselves. When I left in '75,,It was like I had crossed into some kind of twilight zone. Suddenly I saw a whole other aspect of the ministry that I had never seen before. Still, I wasn't aware that what I was seeing was as widespread as it proved to be. Much like you, I really drifted away gradually more so than having a decisive moment I can point to as my exit. I thought a lot of the "off the Word" stuff I was seeing was isolated and never imagined it permiated so deeply into TWI. I am thankful we were both there to see the good times but somewhat saddened by what was to follow. I think that rather than comparing length of stay to good or bad memories, it might be more accurate to compare how far ones' quest for growth took them from the point of origin, not geographically, but more in terms of involvement in the operation of the organization.
The bad memories, for me, began to form when I went on staff at HQ in 1982. Ironic, since it was supposed to be like Mecca, and hugely disappointing, since I really wanted more than anything to work there and serve God's people and "the ministry."
Linda.........I can SO relate. :)
What did I see during my HQ Staff years?
...1) Unbridled adulation towards wierwille
...2) Several outbursts by wierwille over small stuff
...3) A mentality of elitism....only the very best work here
...4) A pecking order .... and a "who knows who" list
I came across another person who took the pfal class......and stayed with twi for almost three years. Yep, back in the early 80s, she took pfal and even attended the roa one year. Her comments were....."It was a good experience and I learned alot."
Yet.......some things came up in her life and she left twi. BUT.......holds some good memories.
This story seems to repeat itself over and over and over again. The local twig had some fun-loving, caring people who really loved God. Young-hearted and youthful energy was abounding. The music was God-inspiring and hearts were affixed on God's power to heal and deliver.
It seems obvious that the longer one stayed, the INDOCTRINATION PROCESS overran the feel-good comaraderie of the local fellowships. The longer one stayed..........the more one was required to DO. The manipulation and micro-management of twi followers was exponentially increased when one became an "advanced class" grad. Yet, the corps program contained some of the ultimate experiences of an isolation cult training wherein the controlling, intimidating scream-fest leaders followed wierwille's lead.
Yeah...........I stayed too long.
And therefore, I have lots of BAD Memories.
I thought SkyRider's post # 1 was very insightful - in its entirety...OldiesMan in his post # 8 quoted only the first part which I highlighted in bold redand then he said this about it:
By the way, I think this is the overwhelming answer you'd get from most ex-way.
ALL of the folks I know have this same opinion. Thanks for reminding me skyrider.
Just couldn't let this one sneak by…It figures you'd pick out the first part of SkyRider's post that describes only the innocent looking tip of this life-sucking iceberg [a.k.a. TWI]. While TWI's doctrines and programs are powerfully effective in their indoctrination and manipulation process – it is an insidious operation in that it has a gradual and cumulative effect – one that takes TIME – which was the point of the rest of his post!…I'll give you the benefit of a doubt – perhaps you don't see the correlation. Some people don't see the relationship between years of smoking and having major health issues either…Perhaps they're stuck on figuring out another mystery they've stumbled upon – that people who have more birthdays live longer.
I agree with you on this point... they should have emphasized the "freely avail" part more especially in the later years.
But still, you can't blame others for your own involvement.
I don't even put a blanket judgment on folks who are involved today...
it's The United States of America and we have freedom of religion...
If twi is their chosen religion and where they think they have their best fellowship with God, then that's what they choose...
Okay – I’ll agree with you…I’m not blaming TWI for my initial involvement. I’m just blaming them for the life-sucking entanglement that followed. Perhaps you missed my specific complaint so I’ll say it again – this time with feeling:
I regret I was dumb enough to buy into TWI's doctrines and programs that sucked away MY time, MY energy, MY finances, MY love for God, MY love for wife and kids…And I'm one of the lucky ones…being a guy - I wasn't drugged and raped.
…Man oh man, TWI not only gives Christianity a bad name but religion in general…I’ll tell you what – fellowship with my God really took off once I left that gosh-awful TWI idolatry and didn’t have their self-serving doctrines and programs dominating every facet of my life…Those invisible giants can loom large in the soul of a simpleton.
An impression of people who had a shorter involvement with twi that I have known -- they had a life outside of that place, family, church, school, work, other friends -- that acted as buffer against the insanity of twi ("no friends when it comes to the Word" "give only to the household (twi)" etc. so the twi doctrine that counteracted logic never made it through to their heart.
-- they had other friends, other church involvements so they didn't consider the lunacy of giving only to twi.
-- they had other friends to listen to for logic.
They enjoyed what they gleaned out of twi, but they weren't so out of balance they were willing to commit their life to it. They had other things they wanted to do with their lives.
The short time involvement pretty much indicated a basic emotional wholeness that wasn't conned by the insanity of twi.
Okay – I’ll agree with you…I’m not blaming TWI for my initial involvement. I’m just blaming them for the life-sucking entanglement that followed. ...
I think if your (or my) mindset and believing was to enjoy the fellowship and move the Word in the spirit with the love of God, a la Romans 10: 14, 15 so that folks would be blessed the way God blessed you and me, your (and my) involvement was anything but a life-sucking entanglement.
This is true of any church you may belong to. Without a Godly mindset and attitude of love and meekness of what God did for you, all religion could be like prison.
I think if your (or my) mindsetand believingwas to enjoy the fellowship and move the Word in the spirit with the love of God, a la Romans 10: 14, 15 so that folks would be blessed the way God blessed you and me, your (and my) involvement was anything but a life-sucking entanglement.
This is true of any church you may belong to. Without a Godly mindset and attitude of love and meeknessof what God did for you, all religion could be like prison.
Allow me to interpret your response for our viewers at home by slipping on my PFAL-colored-glasses: Mindset = a mental attitude or inclination and believing = what you anticipate receiving, your expectation. Both biases are provided for you free of charge [well…no…they charged for the PFAL Class] by TWI. Yes…that works out quite well for them actually…"We'll tell you what it is and how to enjoy the fellowship and move the Word in the spirit with the love of God. Yes, we will define all that for you." And you think they did this in accordance with Romans 10:14,15? Okay – let's look at that,
Romans 10:14,15
14 How, then, can they call on the one they have not believed in? And how can they believe in the one of whom they have not heard? And how can they hear without someone preaching to them?
15 And how can they preach unless they are sent? As it is written, "How beautiful are the feet of those who bring good news!"
What TWI does is modify that a little - teaching people to call on God and tell Him what they believe He should do for them! And I do understand your viewpoint…from within the confines of this dark cold prison a good way to appease the prisoners is to keep handing out the Kool-Aid…that God-like mindset of telling God what to do and insisting you have an attitude of love and meekness. Yes! Yes! Get this message out to the others, right away, my child…I bid you Godspeedvpwspeed!
Yes, when you first join, they fall all over you. Everything is great.
I think this explains a lot...When a person first joined, they were handled with kid gloves...nothing but smiles, kisses and "bless you"..."would you like another cup of coffee?", "do you need a ride to the fellowship?" Until they got the hook into you, they were all nicey nice...
For people who left twi at this early stage...they will usually have good things to say about twi.
...BUT, for those of us who stayed around for awhile...we started to see the inner workings, the REAL motives and attitudes. In other words...the less you knew about twi, the more positive your attitude would probably be...but ignorance should not be celebrated or counted as being an accurate evaluation.
Twi was and is an insideous cult that uses and abuses people through fear tactics and wrong doctrines.
oldiesman is a good example of the "mushbrain" that results when twi is through with you...we keep him around for laughs.
I think if your (or my) mindset and believing was to enjoy the fellowship and move the Word in the spirit with the love of God, a la Romans 10: 14, 15 so that folks would be blessed the way God blessed you and me, your (and my) involvement was anything but a life-sucking entanglement.
This is true of any church you may belong to. Without a Godly mindset and attitude of love and meekness of what God did for you, all religion could be like prison.
Oh for Pete's sake, Oldies..........quit SPINNING and DANCING around the room.
Wierwille BETRAYED his committed followers......most notably, the WOWs and the Corps. As a young and naive WOW, catcup's sister came face-to-face with wierwille's sexual motorcoach lusts and, when she refused, she was kicked off the WOW field. And, its well documented on the forums how wierwille went after the Corps women..!!!!!
Can't you see the snare...??? With no accountability for his actions......and being in a well-protected, multi-tiered yes-men hierarchy, wierwille's TRUE COLORS CAME FORTH. What he was.......behind closed doors..... was his TRUE CHARACTER. Those public appearances were just showmanship......no more, no less.
Wierwille BETRAYED "his" corps........he sold many of us down the river. He couldn't even keep his commitment to us regarding THE CORPS CHALET. He gave it to his top yes-boy......craig.
There is a HUGE chasm between............freely serving God without compulsion as opposed to being manipulated by a con-man who winks with his eyes and speaks with his fingers (Proverbs reference).
But hey.........if you, Oldies, want to stay deceived about "the good ole way-daze" have at it. Doesn't look like too many folks here are buying what you are attempting to sell.
I suppose back in "those good old days of twi" we called it "claiming the promises of God", to which I have no condemnation or regrets.
Say, brother – you’re darn right there – I used to call it that too when I was in TWI. However, since leaving I have repented of such presumptuous sins. Especially since Jesus forbids us to make anything other than the kingdom of God and His righteousness the object of our care and concern [Matthew 6:25-34].
TWI followers are sold a get-whatever-you-want type scheme. It’s such an elaborate process that tasks the “believer” to marshal their thinking to get clear and focused on what they want, to work on their believing, confess what they’re believing for, do Bible studies on believing, make sure they’ve found out what’s available & etc., you know the drill…And to be honest all that rigmarole looks like camouflaged worry to me…Yeah, my regret is that I should have spent more time seeking God’s kingdom and righteousness back then – I wouldn’t have wasted so much time chasing TWI’s fantasies that they dangled in front of everyone’s noses! Probably would have left a whole lot sooner…nah…I would have gotten booted out for rocking the boat.
What is your interest here on GS? I just don't get it...
It seems you want to sit back and remember the good ole'daze in TWI and/or let everyone here know that they've got it wrong and you've seen the light on the whole picture.
DUH... if you haven't figured it out by now... you're at the wrong place for that....
I think the place your looking for is : www.thewayinternational.com
What is your interest here on GS? I just don't get it...
It seems you want to sit back and remember the good ole'daze in TWI and/or let everyone here know that they've got it wrong and you've seen the light on the whole picture.
DUH... if you haven't figured it out by now... you're at the wrong place for that....
I think the place your looking for is : www.thewayinternational.com
Well, see,
as OM sees it, they're no longer the sweetness-and-light group that he remembers
ANYMORE. That was the case until just before he left. Until then, it was nearly perfect-
especially at the organizational level and locally where he was.
(And anyplace else doesn't count.)
Oldiesman left twi in the early 90s.
He claims his PARTICULAR twig/branch was pristine and he never had ANY of the
problems we saw. He claims the way things were in the 70s were always that way
until the day they kicked him out. He claims having his family in and all together
had no effect on any of that. He claims everything he ever got in writing represented
100% truth on matters, no matter what happened later. (Like the loy-alty letter.)
In fact, all the draconian policies-except for Oldies leaving-never happened,
no matter how many eyewitness accounts and audio clips say otherwise.
Now, then, Bowling for Soup covered an SR-71 song which I feel is relevant.
Here's the lyrics.
"Debbie just hit the wall, She never had it all
One prozac a day, Husband's a C.P.A.
Here dreams went out the door, Once she turned 24
Only been with one man. What happened to her plans?
She was gonna be an actress, She was gonna be a star
She was gonna shake that foot On the hood of Whitesnake's car
Now her SUV has become the enemy. Looks at her average life
Nothing has been alright... since
Bruce Springsteen, Madonna
Way before Nirvana there was U2
And Blondie and music still on MTV
Her 2 kids in high school
They tell her that she's uncool
Cause she's still preoccupied
With 19, 19, 1985.
She's seen all the classics at least a hundred times
Breakfast Club, Pretty in Pink, Fast Times At Ridgemont
She rocks out to Wham! Not a big Limp Bizkit fan
Never knew George was gay, Hoped they'd hook up one day
Where's her fairy tale, where's her dream? Where's the quarterback
From her high school football team?
Where's her fairy tale, where's her dream?
How many times will she ask herself What happened to me?
An impression of people who had a shorter involvement with twi that I have known -- they had a life outside of that place, family, church, school, work, other friends -- that acted as buffer against the insanity of twi ("no friends when it comes to the Word" "give only to the household (twi)" etc. so the twi doctrine that counteracted logic never made it through to their heart.
-- they had other friends, other church involvements so they didn't consider the lunacy of giving only to twi.
-- they had other friends to listen to for logic.
They enjoyed what they gleaned out of twi, but they weren't so out of balance they were willing to commit their life to it. They had other things they wanted to do with their lives.
The short time involvement pretty much indicated a basic emotional wholeness that wasn't conned by the insanity of twi.
Kit......yeah, some took pfal but were more focused on their goals and stayed grounded. Others, like me...... followed "the leader" into the indoctrination process of "committed service for God."
In hindsight.........I see the many RED FLAGS. Heck, there were several flying back in "the good ole days"..... the hype, the celebrity-mog status, the undocumented snow-on-gas-pumps, the inresidence isolation, the money-spending constraints while inresidence, the stifling of showing emotion, etc.
Back in the 70s......witnessing to bring others to a twi-fellowship was tough.
Imagine TODAY.......the internet, the ex-way community, lawsuits, re-written twi history, the ousted martindale, pathetic involvement, an aging following, top-heavy staff personnel, etc. etc. The short stay might be NO STAY at all.
There are so many variables: when you got in, when you got out, who the leaders were, whether you were a leader or a well-respected long-term believer, were classes being run, how much money you were contributing. They all have a bearing on whether your memories were good, bad or indifferent.
Another factor is how much you had invested in believing it all was right; what kind of things you would consider insignificant and were willing to put up with.
I agree, in general, with the premise of this thread, that the longer you were in, the greater the indoctrination and the greater the attempts at control. However, the same actions could be perceived in vastly different ways, depending on one's mindset. For example, in the mid-nineties, local leadership made it their business to criticize several aspects of my personal life, and put a lot of pressure on me to change. At the time I accepted this interference, believing at the time that a leader had the right and responsibility to correct "error" in this manner. In hindsight, I now believe that the leader's actions were wrong and that I was wrong to allow it.
For most of us who have left TWI there is a line that gets crossed. For some the line was crossed during PFAL and we never really got involved. For others it was the so-called loyalty oath letter, for still others it was actions of local leaders or a realization that there were doctrinal contradictions. But the line usually just didn't pop up from nowhere one day. There was a continuum: at one end was "this is great" and at the other end was "I'm outta here".
...Another factor is how much you had invested in believing it all was right; what kind of things you would consider insignificant and were willing to put up with...
Oakspear, in my opinion how much a follower invested is a huge factor – as well as what was their bottom line, what items were negotiable, etc.! Excellent points!!!...interesting…I started looking at this in terms of a business deal…Some people when they get burned on a bad investment will garner what lessons can be learned from the experience, and move on. Bet they won’t make a mistake like that again.
I was involved with twi for only six years (for a more detailed account of my story, see my post in the "My Story" forum here), from shortly after VPW's death in 1985 to 1991, although most of the last four years I was on active duty in the military with very limited contact with other followers. Mostly I just listened to their tapes and read their publications during my active duty military years. In the years prior to my enlistment, there were good and bad memories, but in hindsight, I'd have to say whether the memories were good or bad, they had little to do with the organization, and a lot to do with the people I was associating with at the time.
My fondest memory of my years in twi had nothing to do with the organization, other than I was a WOW at the time it occurred. Shortly after I arrived where I was sent and got settled into an apartment, I was sitting on the couch shortly before "pumpkin hour" reading the Bible when I happened to look up toward the sliding glass door that led to the balcony to see a full moon in the clear night sky with a rainbow completely encircling it. It was a natural phenomenon that I've never seen before or since. I excitedly dragged my two WOW sisters out onto the balcony to see it, and they were as awestruck as I was. My interim corps WOW sister quoted Psalm 19:1, "The heavens declare the glory of God; and the firmament sheweth his handywork." The three of us interpreted this beautiful natural occurance as a sign from God that our WOW year would bring great blessings. Unfortunately, we all left before the year was over, with me being the first to go.
After my discharge from the military, my memories of my twi involvement are mostly bad. Things had changed drastically that I didn't notice in the tapes and magazine issues that I received in the mail while I was on active duty. I returned from a combat tour of duty in Kuwait and Iraq to find that most of the caring, loving "leaders" I knew before had become overly critical of those whom they were responsible for "leading" and yelling at them rather than calmly and rationally explaining things with a loving attitude. Since I was recently in a war zone, I was and still am coping with the psychological trauma associated with firsthand experience of war. I came to the conclusion before I even left the Persian Gulf that what my country had done to the people of Iraq was a heinous criminal act, and I was so ashamed of my participation in it that I couldn't find the courage to even talk about what I had experienced until three years ago.
The worst memory of my post-military involvement with twi, about 6 months after my discharge, involved a branch coordinator who got in my face and yelled at me like he was some kind of wannabe drill instructor. I don't remember exactly why he was yelling at me, but he said things like, "You better get your head straight with God, mister..." and other miscellaneous "renew your mind" crap. After putting up with 90 minutes or so of his impersonation of Sgt. Hartman in Full Metal Jacket something inside me snapped, and before either of us knew it, I had grabbed him by the larynx and slammed him against a wall. I pinned him there as I screamed a string of obscenities at him, telling him in no uncertain terms that my relationship with God was none of his business.
It took three people to pull me off of him. When they got me to sit down, I was an emotional wreck, shaking and crying uncontrollably. I realized that I could have easily killed the guy with my bare hands just by squeezing a little harder on his adam's apple and crushing it. They knew I was a recently discharged veteran, but because of the shame and guilt that kept me from talking about my combat experience, they had no clue what they were dealing with as far as my fragile psyche was concerned. Of course they all thought I was possessed, and tried casting out the devil spirits. When that didn't work, they shunned me and refused to let me in the house I shared with four other followers to collect my personal belongings. I had nowhere to go except hitchhike 170+ miles to my parents house, where I decided to end my involvement with twi once and for all.
I think all the factors that influence how those involved with twi (or any other cult for that matter) view the memories they've collected of their involvement could fill an entire volume of an encyclopedia. I was a 17 year old kid when I took the foundational class, and generally speaking, the younger you are, the easier it is for others to manipulate your mind. When twi's brainwashing techniques started to change from the subtle friendly seduction I was subjected to early on, to more overt militaristic brainwashing techniques like "face meltings" it got to a point where it hit a raw nerve in me that triggered an adrenaline induced fight-or-flight response.
Why to go William, wish I had the guts to do what you did to those jerks. I had the scream fests too. Glad we all finally figured it out. Glas we're out.
william, your response was better than mine. when subjected to those screaming sessions (with my then-husband standing by, fully supporting what was being done to me) I crumpled and lost myself. the depression was horrific but I could not leave. if I'd stood up to them and told them off like they rightly deserved, maybe I would have been kicked out and my life would have changed for the better much sooner... but by then I had kids and being put out of the house and leaving my kids is not something I think I could do.
it's just sick thinking that they'd verbally abuse someone like that, then effectively steal all their belongings and send them out with nothing.
twi is full of bullies and thieves. nothing justifies doing that to someone.
maybe we should compile a book of personal stories, like you said it would be of encyclopedic proportions.
Actually, I will have to agree with Oldies and Whitey on this one. :blink:
Take a look at all the people that went to offshoots that were "new and improved."
"...NOW WITH LESS.....people."
Consider all the weirwillites right here on GSC....a small sample.
Consider all those that went from the fire to the frying pan. "It isn't quite so hot in here and, hey, it smells like yesterday's sausage. Besides, I've had dreams about pancakes."
Consider the number of people here at GSC to the number of people in pre-POP twi.
This doesn't mean that twi was great.
Nor does it mean that it didn't get worse over time.
Perhaps it means the longer you were in the more coolaid you partook in. You liked the red mustache. You thought it made you look spiritual. Like an anorexic looking in the mirror at how fat they are.
It doesn't mean that all those with great memories of a long time twi life are correct in their perspective of what twi was.
Perhaps it means they didn't see anything. Somehow.
Perhaps they were more codependant from the start.
Perhaps they were more f'ed up from the start.
Perhaps they were more anorexic. If I could only believe bigger, study harder, I could master the word. I could loose these love handles.
I think of victims defending their kidnappers or abuser....a woman returning once again to the abusive husband. "He's a good man, really."
They are correct. We are all good and bad.
Some more good than bad.
Some more bad than good.
"lets focus on the good here, people. Feel the love....upside your head."
...and lets focus on that woman that just keeps going back for more....
IT IS HER FAULT after all. She could have left at any point if she didn't like the Way the love was being dealt.
Recommended Posts
Top Posters In This Topic
9
7
9
4
Popular Days
Dec 8
23
Dec 11
7
Dec 9
6
Dec 29
4
Top Posters In This Topic
skyrider 9 posts
oldiesman 7 posts
T-Bone 9 posts
waysider 4 posts
Popular Days
Dec 8 2006
23 posts
Dec 11 2006
7 posts
Dec 9 2006
6 posts
Dec 29 2006
4 posts
Popular Posts
skyrider
It happened again yesterday. I came across another person who took the pfal class......and stayed with twi for almost three years. Yep, back in the early 80s, she took pfal and even attended the roa
skyrider
Oh for Pete's sake, Oldies..........quit SPINNING and DANCING around the room. Wierwille BETRAYED his committed followers......most notably, the WOWs and the Corps. As a young and naive WOW, catcup'
skyrider
Actually..........this thread is about perspective. The longer one stayed around slick vic and his manipulation...........the greater impact from its INDOCTRINATION PROCESS. Of course, you'd like to
polar bear
Yes, when you first join, they fall all over you. Everything is great.
But it's like a trap, the longer you are in, the more indoctinated (seduced) you get. There are things like "we're in Zion the fortress of God, if you leave you are in a wilderness, the world is a wilderness". So you think, if I leave I'm outside of the fort.
Then you get the doctrine "the more committed you are the more rewards you will get". So you move up. And the more you move up the more you see the corruption. Many have not seen this part but it's there I assure you. I worked with most right up to the top. Then you get to the point where you have to make a choice.
Will you stay and bear with all the crap, or lose all your so called friends, be called a cop out and be ostrasized.
If you stay you start to get comfortable with the corruption and eventually start to get along with it, then after a while you don't even notice it. But it so sublte many aren't even aware it's happenig.
The other choice it to say SCREW IT! Let the good times roll!
Link to comment
Share on other sites
waysider
Linda Z-------I agree with you 100% about Cleveland in the early '70's. We had some really great people, fellowshipping because that's what they wanted to do. As I'm sure you know, several have departed this life. It would be hard to imagine an area that size sustaining a branch today and yet we had not one but two. There was a genuine concern for each others welfare and we had lots of good times without the blessings or interference of HQ.There weren't very many children back then except for yours, Michelles', Jim and Jackies' and a few others that escape me at the moment. Heck, we weren't too much more than kids ourselves. When I left in '75,,It was like I had crossed into some kind of twilight zone. Suddenly I saw a whole other aspect of the ministry that I had never seen before. Still, I wasn't aware that what I was seeing was as widespread as it proved to be. Much like you, I really drifted away gradually more so than having a decisive moment I can point to as my exit. I thought a lot of the "off the Word" stuff I was seeing was isolated and never imagined it permiated so deeply into TWI. I am thankful we were both there to see the good times but somewhat saddened by what was to follow. I think that rather than comparing length of stay to good or bad memories, it might be more accurate to compare how far ones' quest for growth took them from the point of origin, not geographically, but more in terms of involvement in the operation of the organization.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
skyrider
Linda.........I can SO relate. :)
What did I see during my HQ Staff years?
...1) Unbridled adulation towards wierwille
...2) Several outbursts by wierwille over small stuff
...3) A mentality of elitism....only the very best work here
...4) A pecking order .... and a "who knows who" list
...5) Corporate politics / departmental squabbling
...6) Eyes are watching you......overly suspicious
...7) Trustees....."buddies" with the finance guys
...8) Perks, favortism abounded to those who "served the trustees"
...9) Alcohol....in refrigerators, in abundance.
.......etc. etc.
I was HUGELY disappointed.....from what I saw at twi's "mecca."
Link to comment
Share on other sites
T-Bone
I thought SkyRider's post # 1 was very insightful - in its entirety...OldiesMan in his post # 8 quoted only the first part which I highlighted in bold red and then he said this about it:
Just couldn't let this one sneak by…It figures you'd pick out the first part of SkyRider's post that describes only the innocent looking tip of this life-sucking iceberg [a.k.a. TWI]. While TWI's doctrines and programs are powerfully effective in their indoctrination and manipulation process – it is an insidious operation in that it has a gradual and cumulative effect – one that takes TIME – which was the point of the rest of his post!…I'll give you the benefit of a doubt – perhaps you don't see the correlation. Some people don't see the relationship between years of smoking and having major health issues either…Perhaps they're stuck on figuring out another mystery they've stumbled upon – that people who have more birthdays live longer.
Edited by T-BoneLink to comment
Share on other sites
T-Bone
Okay – I’ll agree with you…I’m not blaming TWI for my initial involvement. I’m just blaming them for the life-sucking entanglement that followed. Perhaps you missed my specific complaint so I’ll say it again – this time with feeling:
I regret I was dumb enough to buy into TWI's doctrines and programs that sucked away MY time, MY energy, MY finances, MY love for God, MY love for wife and kids…And I'm one of the lucky ones…being a guy - I wasn't drugged and raped.
…Man oh man, TWI not only gives Christianity a bad name but religion in general…I’ll tell you what – fellowship with my God really took off once I left that gosh-awful TWI idolatry and didn’t have their self-serving doctrines and programs dominating every facet of my life…Those invisible giants can loom large in the soul of a simpleton.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Kit Sober
An impression of people who had a shorter involvement with twi that I have known -- they had a life outside of that place, family, church, school, work, other friends -- that acted as buffer against the insanity of twi ("no friends when it comes to the Word" "give only to the household (twi)" etc. so the twi doctrine that counteracted logic never made it through to their heart.
-- they had other friends, other church involvements so they didn't consider the lunacy of giving only to twi.
-- they had other friends to listen to for logic.
They enjoyed what they gleaned out of twi, but they weren't so out of balance they were willing to commit their life to it. They had other things they wanted to do with their lives.
The short time involvement pretty much indicated a basic emotional wholeness that wasn't conned by the insanity of twi.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
oldiesman
I think if your (or my) mindset and believing was to enjoy the fellowship and move the Word in the spirit with the love of God, a la Romans 10: 14, 15 so that folks would be blessed the way God blessed you and me, your (and my) involvement was anything but a life-sucking entanglement.
This is true of any church you may belong to. Without a Godly mindset and attitude of love and meekness of what God did for you, all religion could be like prison.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
T-Bone
Allow me to interpret your response for our viewers at home by slipping on my PFAL-colored-glasses: Mindset = a mental attitude or inclination and believing = what you anticipate receiving, your expectation. Both biases are provided for you free of charge [well…no…they charged for the PFAL Class] by TWI. Yes…that works out quite well for them actually…"We'll tell you what it is and how to enjoy the fellowship and move the Word in the spirit with the love of God. Yes, we will define all that for you." And you think they did this in accordance with Romans 10:14,15? Okay – let's look at that,
Romans 10:14,15
14 How, then, can they call on the one they have not believed in? And how can they believe in the one of whom they have not heard? And how can they hear without someone preaching to them?
15 And how can they preach unless they are sent? As it is written, "How beautiful are the feet of those who bring good news!"
What TWI does is modify that a little - teaching people to call on God and tell Him what they believe He should do for them! And I do understand your viewpoint…from within the confines of this dark cold prison a good way to appease the prisoners is to keep handing out the Kool-Aid…that God-like mindset of telling God what to do and insisting you have an attitude of love and meekness. Yes! Yes! Get this message out to the others, right away, my child…I bid you Godspeed vpwspeed!
Edited by T-BoneLink to comment
Share on other sites
GrouchoMarxJr
I think this explains a lot...When a person first joined, they were handled with kid gloves...nothing but smiles, kisses and "bless you"..."would you like another cup of coffee?", "do you need a ride to the fellowship?" Until they got the hook into you, they were all nicey nice...
For people who left twi at this early stage...they will usually have good things to say about twi.
...BUT, for those of us who stayed around for awhile...we started to see the inner workings, the REAL motives and attitudes. In other words...the less you knew about twi, the more positive your attitude would probably be...but ignorance should not be celebrated or counted as being an accurate evaluation.
Twi was and is an insideous cult that uses and abuses people through fear tactics and wrong doctrines.
oldiesman is a good example of the "mushbrain" that results when twi is through with you...we keep him around for laughs.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
oldiesman
I suppose back in "those good old days of twi" we called it "claiming the promises of God", to which I have no condemnation or regrets.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
skyrider
Oh for Pete's sake, Oldies..........quit SPINNING and DANCING around the room.
Wierwille BETRAYED his committed followers......most notably, the WOWs and the Corps. As a young and naive WOW, catcup's sister came face-to-face with wierwille's sexual motorcoach lusts and, when she refused, she was kicked off the WOW field. And, its well documented on the forums how wierwille went after the Corps women..!!!!!
Can't you see the snare...??? With no accountability for his actions......and being in a well-protected, multi-tiered yes-men hierarchy, wierwille's TRUE COLORS CAME FORTH. What he was.......behind closed doors..... was his TRUE CHARACTER. Those public appearances were just showmanship......no more, no less.
Wierwille BETRAYED "his" corps........he sold many of us down the river. He couldn't even keep his commitment to us regarding THE CORPS CHALET. He gave it to his top yes-boy......craig.
There is a HUGE chasm between............freely serving God without compulsion as opposed to being manipulated by a con-man who winks with his eyes and speaks with his fingers (Proverbs reference).
But hey.........if you, Oldies, want to stay deceived about "the good ole way-daze" have at it. Doesn't look like too many folks here are buying what you are attempting to sell.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
T-Bone
Say, brother – you’re darn right there – I used to call it that too when I was in TWI. However, since leaving I have repented of such presumptuous sins. Especially since Jesus forbids us to make anything other than the kingdom of God and His righteousness the object of our care and concern [Matthew 6:25-34].
TWI followers are sold a get-whatever-you-want type scheme. It’s such an elaborate process that tasks the “believer” to marshal their thinking to get clear and focused on what they want, to work on their believing, confess what they’re believing for, do Bible studies on believing, make sure they’ve found out what’s available & etc., you know the drill…And to be honest all that rigmarole looks like camouflaged worry to me…Yeah, my regret is that I should have spent more time seeking God’s kingdom and righteousness back then – I wouldn’t have wasted so much time chasing TWI’s fantasies that they dangled in front of everyone’s noses! Probably would have left a whole lot sooner…nah…I would have gotten booted out for rocking the boat.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
A la prochaine
OM,
I don't get it?
What is your interest here on GS? I just don't get it...
It seems you want to sit back and remember the good ole'daze in TWI and/or let everyone here know that they've got it wrong and you've seen the light on the whole picture.
DUH... if you haven't figured it out by now... you're at the wrong place for that....
I think the place your looking for is : www.thewayinternational.com
Edited by A la prochaineLink to comment
Share on other sites
WordWolf
Well, see,
as OM sees it, they're no longer the sweetness-and-light group that he remembers
ANYMORE. That was the case until just before he left. Until then, it was nearly perfect-
especially at the organizational level and locally where he was.
(And anyplace else doesn't count.)
Oldiesman left twi in the early 90s.
He claims his PARTICULAR twig/branch was pristine and he never had ANY of the
problems we saw. He claims the way things were in the 70s were always that way
until the day they kicked him out. He claims having his family in and all together
had no effect on any of that. He claims everything he ever got in writing represented
100% truth on matters, no matter what happened later. (Like the loy-alty letter.)
In fact, all the draconian policies-except for Oldies leaving-never happened,
no matter how many eyewitness accounts and audio clips say otherwise.
Now, then, Bowling for Soup covered an SR-71 song which I feel is relevant.
Here's the lyrics.
"Debbie just hit the wall, She never had it all
One prozac a day, Husband's a C.P.A.
Here dreams went out the door, Once she turned 24
Only been with one man. What happened to her plans?
She was gonna be an actress, She was gonna be a star
She was gonna shake that foot On the hood of Whitesnake's car
Now her SUV has become the enemy. Looks at her average life
Nothing has been alright... since
Bruce Springsteen, Madonna
Way before Nirvana there was U2
And Blondie and music still on MTV
Her 2 kids in high school
They tell her that she's uncool
Cause she's still preoccupied
With 19, 19, 1985.
She's seen all the classics at least a hundred times
Breakfast Club, Pretty in Pink, Fast Times At Ridgemont
She rocks out to Wham! Not a big Limp Bizkit fan
Never knew George was gay, Hoped they'd hook up one day
Where's her fairy tale, where's her dream? Where's the quarterback
From her high school football team?
Where's her fairy tale, where's her dream?
How many times will she ask herself What happened to me?
(the rubber broke) ... When
Bruce Springsteen, Madonna
Way before Nirvana there was U2
And Blondie and music still on MTV
Her 2 kids in high school
They tell her that she's uncool
Cause she's still preoccupied
With 19, 19, 1985.
She hates time / make it stop
When did Motley Crue become classic rock
She hates time / make it stop
Bruce Springsteen, Madonna
Way before Nirvana there was U2
And Blondie and music still on MTV
Her 2 kids in high school
They tell her that she's uncool
Cause she's still preoccupied
With 19, 19, 1985."
The relevance, I trust, is not lost on you.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
skyrider
Kit......yeah, some took pfal but were more focused on their goals and stayed grounded. Others, like me...... followed "the leader" into the indoctrination process of "committed service for God."
In hindsight.........I see the many RED FLAGS. Heck, there were several flying back in "the good ole days"..... the hype, the celebrity-mog status, the undocumented snow-on-gas-pumps, the inresidence isolation, the money-spending constraints while inresidence, the stifling of showing emotion, etc.
Back in the 70s......witnessing to bring others to a twi-fellowship was tough.
Imagine TODAY.......the internet, the ex-way community, lawsuits, re-written twi history, the ousted martindale, pathetic involvement, an aging following, top-heavy staff personnel, etc. etc. The short stay might be NO STAY at all.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Oakspear
There are so many variables: when you got in, when you got out, who the leaders were, whether you were a leader or a well-respected long-term believer, were classes being run, how much money you were contributing. They all have a bearing on whether your memories were good, bad or indifferent.
Another factor is how much you had invested in believing it all was right; what kind of things you would consider insignificant and were willing to put up with.
I agree, in general, with the premise of this thread, that the longer you were in, the greater the indoctrination and the greater the attempts at control. However, the same actions could be perceived in vastly different ways, depending on one's mindset. For example, in the mid-nineties, local leadership made it their business to criticize several aspects of my personal life, and put a lot of pressure on me to change. At the time I accepted this interference, believing at the time that a leader had the right and responsibility to correct "error" in this manner. In hindsight, I now believe that the leader's actions were wrong and that I was wrong to allow it.
For most of us who have left TWI there is a line that gets crossed. For some the line was crossed during PFAL and we never really got involved. For others it was the so-called loyalty oath letter, for still others it was actions of local leaders or a realization that there were doctrinal contradictions. But the line usually just didn't pop up from nowhere one day. There was a continuum: at one end was "this is great" and at the other end was "I'm outta here".
Link to comment
Share on other sites
T-Bone
Oakspear, in my opinion how much a follower invested is a huge factor – as well as what was their bottom line, what items were negotiable, etc.! Excellent points!!!...interesting…I started looking at this in terms of a business deal…Some people when they get burned on a bad investment will garner what lessons can be learned from the experience, and move on. Bet they won’t make a mistake like that again.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
William
I was involved with twi for only six years (for a more detailed account of my story, see my post in the "My Story" forum here), from shortly after VPW's death in 1985 to 1991, although most of the last four years I was on active duty in the military with very limited contact with other followers. Mostly I just listened to their tapes and read their publications during my active duty military years. In the years prior to my enlistment, there were good and bad memories, but in hindsight, I'd have to say whether the memories were good or bad, they had little to do with the organization, and a lot to do with the people I was associating with at the time.
My fondest memory of my years in twi had nothing to do with the organization, other than I was a WOW at the time it occurred. Shortly after I arrived where I was sent and got settled into an apartment, I was sitting on the couch shortly before "pumpkin hour" reading the Bible when I happened to look up toward the sliding glass door that led to the balcony to see a full moon in the clear night sky with a rainbow completely encircling it. It was a natural phenomenon that I've never seen before or since. I excitedly dragged my two WOW sisters out onto the balcony to see it, and they were as awestruck as I was. My interim corps WOW sister quoted Psalm 19:1, "The heavens declare the glory of God; and the firmament sheweth his handywork." The three of us interpreted this beautiful natural occurance as a sign from God that our WOW year would bring great blessings. Unfortunately, we all left before the year was over, with me being the first to go.
After my discharge from the military, my memories of my twi involvement are mostly bad. Things had changed drastically that I didn't notice in the tapes and magazine issues that I received in the mail while I was on active duty. I returned from a combat tour of duty in Kuwait and Iraq to find that most of the caring, loving "leaders" I knew before had become overly critical of those whom they were responsible for "leading" and yelling at them rather than calmly and rationally explaining things with a loving attitude. Since I was recently in a war zone, I was and still am coping with the psychological trauma associated with firsthand experience of war. I came to the conclusion before I even left the Persian Gulf that what my country had done to the people of Iraq was a heinous criminal act, and I was so ashamed of my participation in it that I couldn't find the courage to even talk about what I had experienced until three years ago.
The worst memory of my post-military involvement with twi, about 6 months after my discharge, involved a branch coordinator who got in my face and yelled at me like he was some kind of wannabe drill instructor. I don't remember exactly why he was yelling at me, but he said things like, "You better get your head straight with God, mister..." and other miscellaneous "renew your mind" crap. After putting up with 90 minutes or so of his impersonation of Sgt. Hartman in Full Metal Jacket something inside me snapped, and before either of us knew it, I had grabbed him by the larynx and slammed him against a wall. I pinned him there as I screamed a string of obscenities at him, telling him in no uncertain terms that my relationship with God was none of his business.
It took three people to pull me off of him. When they got me to sit down, I was an emotional wreck, shaking and crying uncontrollably. I realized that I could have easily killed the guy with my bare hands just by squeezing a little harder on his adam's apple and crushing it. They knew I was a recently discharged veteran, but because of the shame and guilt that kept me from talking about my combat experience, they had no clue what they were dealing with as far as my fragile psyche was concerned. Of course they all thought I was possessed, and tried casting out the devil spirits. When that didn't work, they shunned me and refused to let me in the house I shared with four other followers to collect my personal belongings. I had nowhere to go except hitchhike 170+ miles to my parents house, where I decided to end my involvement with twi once and for all.
I think all the factors that influence how those involved with twi (or any other cult for that matter) view the memories they've collected of their involvement could fill an entire volume of an encyclopedia. I was a 17 year old kid when I took the foundational class, and generally speaking, the younger you are, the easier it is for others to manipulate your mind. When twi's brainwashing techniques started to change from the subtle friendly seduction I was subjected to early on, to more overt militaristic brainwashing techniques like "face meltings" it got to a point where it hit a raw nerve in me that triggered an adrenaline induced fight-or-flight response.
Edited by WilliamLink to comment
Share on other sites
polar bear
Why to go William, wish I had the guts to do what you did to those jerks. I had the scream fests too. Glad we all finally figured it out. Glas we're out.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
potato
william, your response was better than mine. when subjected to those screaming sessions (with my then-husband standing by, fully supporting what was being done to me) I crumpled and lost myself. the depression was horrific but I could not leave. if I'd stood up to them and told them off like they rightly deserved, maybe I would have been kicked out and my life would have changed for the better much sooner... but by then I had kids and being put out of the house and leaving my kids is not something I think I could do.
it's just sick thinking that they'd verbally abuse someone like that, then effectively steal all their belongings and send them out with nothing.
twi is full of bullies and thieves. nothing justifies doing that to someone.
maybe we should compile a book of personal stories, like you said it would be of encyclopedic proportions.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
waysider
Hey there, William.Welcome to GSC. I hope the menu lives up to your expectations.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
lindyhopper
Actually, I will have to agree with Oldies and Whitey on this one. :blink:
Take a look at all the people that went to offshoots that were "new and improved."
"...NOW WITH LESS.....people."
Consider all the weirwillites right here on GSC....a small sample.
Consider all those that went from the fire to the frying pan. "It isn't quite so hot in here and, hey, it smells like yesterday's sausage. Besides, I've had dreams about pancakes."
Consider the number of people here at GSC to the number of people in pre-POP twi.
This doesn't mean that twi was great.
Nor does it mean that it didn't get worse over time.
Perhaps it means the longer you were in the more coolaid you partook in. You liked the red mustache. You thought it made you look spiritual. Like an anorexic looking in the mirror at how fat they are.
It doesn't mean that all those with great memories of a long time twi life are correct in their perspective of what twi was.
Perhaps it means they didn't see anything. Somehow.
Perhaps they were more codependant from the start.
Perhaps they were more f'ed up from the start.
Perhaps they were more anorexic. If I could only believe bigger, study harder, I could master the word. I could loose these love handles.
I think of victims defending their kidnappers or abuser....a woman returning once again to the abusive husband. "He's a good man, really."
They are correct. We are all good and bad.
Some more good than bad.
Some more bad than good.
"lets focus on the good here, people. Feel the love....upside your head."
...and lets focus on that woman that just keeps going back for more....
IT IS HER FAULT after all. She could have left at any point if she didn't like the Way the love was being dealt.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
coolchef
i have some fond memories of my early days in twi
but most of them are of the many sweet people in our local twigs we were family
we were self propogating and we grew and it was sweet...most of the time but then came the corp
i have heard it said that twi saved many marrages and i am sure it did
but i am here to tell you tha it ruined and ended more than it saved
that is first hand info
it cost me my family
some of it my fault? of course, but most of it was the mog who enjoyed my ex wife and eschewed me
he wanted me out of his way
his name? the rev.dana armweak
may he find peace within his soul for the havoc he created and the hurt and pain he caused and then may he burn in hell
a little bitter you think?
yeah i guess it is but he helped me lose a family
Link to comment
Share on other sites
A la prochaine
Lindy,
WONDERFUL POST!!!!
Many quotables in there~
Cheers buddy!
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.