Yet another example that if one regrets their twi stint, they have nobody to blame but themselves.
TWI didn't want folks if folks didn't want to be there.
Actually..........this thread is about perspective. The longer one stayed around slick vic and his manipulation...........the greater impact from its INDOCTRINATION PROCESS.
Of course, you'd like to turn this thread on its ear.......but since you mentioned regret, I think it has a much broader perspective than that. It really keynotes THE ABUSE FACTOR in twi.
Pretty strange way to interpret that post .
Yeah, Rascal......has quite a slant to do, doesn't it. :)
At first in the late 70's I chalked up the occasional indignity to stupid people, not disimilar to stupid people I had encountered thoughout my entire life up to that point. However, as time went on and it got worse, I came to the conclusion that TWI placed incompetent individuals in postions of power and control based soley on their zealous adherence to their stange doctrine. People who I would have never given the time of day in the real world and now having to take their arrogant holier than thou attitude just became too much, so I got out. Slobbering nerds trying to stick their tongue down my wife's throat...no thank you!
Yet another example that if one regrets their twi stint, they have nobody to blame but themselves.
TWI didn't want folks if folks didn't want to be there.
Yet another example of the fine art of blame-shifting…Or maybe – let's just give credit where credit is due. I regret I was dumb enough to buy into TWI's doctrines and programs that sucked away MY time, MY energy, MY finances, MY love for God, MY love for wife and kids…And I'm one of the lucky ones…being a guy - I wasn't drugged and raped…If TWI had such a laissez faire attitude about people coming and going - why did leadership frequently pepper their teachings with the subliminal message that if you left TWI you're walking away from God and bad $ h1t is gonna happen.
Actually..........this thread is about perspective. The longer one stayed around slick vic and his manipulation...........the greater impact from its INDOCTRINATION PROCESS.
Perspective varies depending on the individual. If you want to say that "slick vic" indoctrinated and manipulated you, your entitled to your opinion.
But even so, it's an indoctrination process and lifestyle YOU CHOSE TO BELIEVE AND PARTICIPATE IN.
And ... "slick vic" didn't kidnap you, didn't force you and didn't want you to be there if you didn't WANT to be there.
If TWI had such a laissez faire attitude about people coming and going - why did leadership frequently pepper their teachings with the subliminal message that if you left TWI you're walking away from God and bad $ h1t is gonna happen.
I agree with you on this point... they should have emphasized the "freely avail" part more especially in the later years.
But still, you can't blame others for your own involvement.
I don't even put a blanket judgment on folks who are involved today...
it's The United States of America and we have freedom of religion...
If twi is their chosen religion and where they think they have their best fellowship with God, then that's what they choose.
It happened again yesterday.
I came across another person who took the pfal class......and stayed with twi for almost three years. Yep, back in the early 80s, she took pfal and even attended the roa one year. Her comments were....."It was a good experience and I learned alot."
By the way, I think this is the overwhelming answer you'd get from most ex-way.
ALL of the folks I know have this same opinion. Thanks for reminding me skyrider.
Perspective varies depending on the individual. If you want to say that "slick vic" indoctrinated and manipulated you, your entitled to your opinion.
But even so, it's an indoctrination process and lifestyle YOU CHOSE TO BELIEVE AND PARTICIPATE IN.
And ... "slick vic" didn't kidnap you, didn't force you and didn't want you to be there if you didn't WANT to be there.
Wowwee, the Kool-Aid is strong with this one…the trick of manipulation is that you're not aware you're being manipulated. Which reminds me of one of my favorite quotes – it's currently my signature – here I'll just bring it up here so ya'll can see it better:
"The most successful tyranny is not the one that uses force to assure uniformity but the one that removes the awareness of other possibilities, that makes it seem inconceivable that other ways are viable, that removes the sense that there is an outside."[from Closing of the American Mindby Allan Bloom]
Well, MountainTopCO, I think the problem is actually due to leaving the PFAL-colored-glasses on. It re-formats everything. Don't believe me? Alright then, first look at my text without the PFAL-colored-glasses:
"The most successful tyranny is not the one that uses force to assure uniformity but the one that removes the awareness of other possibilities, that makes it seem inconceivable that other ways are viable, that removes the sense that there is an outside."
Now…put the PFAL-colored-glasses on…hey - be careful with them…don't want you breaking one of my favorite TWI souveneirs…hmmmm…not bad…it gives you that I-know-more-than-God look…maybe you want to try some in titanium frames – they're indestructible – even last through a holocaust…huh? Oh yeah right – back to our experiment – now look at my text again:
The most successful ministry is one that's based on a farce to ensure stupidity – one that removes awareness. It may seem inconceivable and makes no sense to outsiders –but that's The Way for yah.
Good point T-Bone. I think people need to have some personal integrity and remove the Way-colored-glasses and take an honest evaluation of the situation. Then and only then will they see how accurate and applicable your quote is.
It seems obvious that the longer one stayed, the INDOCTRINATION PROCESS overran the feel-good comaraderie of the local fellowships.
Really exactly what do you base this assumption on ? I'd like to see your data that you used to arrive at this conclusion.
I was around from the early 70s until the late 80's as well as many others I know. That conclusion is not consistant with the results that I have heard.
well, i have to say that my relatives..about 20 of them were in the way for maybe..i dont know..10 yrs..and i think a couple are still in..they have nothing bad to say about it either..i think that some of them are in CFF and still follow doctrine and are loyal to the way..i do wonder why they left though..they wont speak about it and remain loyal to vpw and lcm. but my grandma claims she only heard the "word of God" there. boy, they really, really indoctrinated my relatives because most have them have never set foot in a church and refuse to do so...and they have taught their children the evils of mainstream christianity too...which really unnerves me...because mainstream christianity is not bad..SURE, NO ONE IS EVER GOING TO BELIEVE THE EXACT SAME THING YOU DO....but christian radio, christian evangelists, christian bookstores, and different churches, are an amazing connection to the rest of us. my relatives in the way will not touch these things..they only have their special tapes and books...it puzzles me. it discourages me. they are isolated spiritually and intolerant in a lot of ways..thinking they are the only ones and such...anyhow, i continue to hop that by any means their perspective will change!
Great point, Skyrider - and I couldn't agree more.
I have very fond memories of my first few years in TWI in the early 70's. Everything was peace, love and Jesus. Once people started coming, the need for control grew greater, therefore the need for "leaders" who were control-freaks grew as well. The more control-freaks, the greater the manipulation. Ane more control-freaks became attracted to programs like The Way Corpse. And though not everyone in the Corpse was a control freak - there were plenty of them to go around.
Then LCM -- the Grand Master of Control Freaks took over - and it got worse and worse and worse. The longer one stayed in the fold, the more control was enforced - so it was truly a miserable place to be. But by then, some of us had been in so long that we actually believed that TWI was the only way to Gawd and his Woid - the only rule for faith and practice. The longer one stayed the harder it was to make the break. All the good things from the early years had been brushed off as "old wineskins" or "dwelling in the past" including the teachings, the music and the people who'd left - the "cop-outs".
Hindsight is always 20/20. I think I would have had good memories and be more of a TWI defender if I had left in 1981 or 1982 - or at the latest 1986/87 - which still would have been too long, but a good time to get out with everyone else. Unfortunately, I stayed in until July 2000 and have more bad memories than good ones. But that's another story...
If TWI had such a laissez faire attitude about people coming and going - why did leadership frequently pepper their teachings with the subliminal message that if you left TWI you're walking away from God and bad $ h1t is gonna happen.
T-bone.....I know its a rhetorical question, but I'd like to answer it for others. :)
Although wierwille had seen people come and go constantly throughout his "ministry".......it wasn't until the WOW program and Corps program that wierwille was able to really strongarm (with false prophecies) people to follow thru on their "commitments to God." Anything that stood in the way of fulfilling this/these commitments was "of the devil" and to be squelched. Pregnancies were to be aborted. Family affairs were to be disregarded.
By the mid-70s, wierwille racheted up his vocabulary with the term "cop-out." Any and all corps who left twi, especially upper leadership, were viciously slandered and labeled on Tuesday Night's corps night. The term "cop-out" was incorporated into the wayspeak vocabulary. During those years, many 4th-6th corps were labeled as such.......and never heard from again.
Funny, how wierwille had to incorporate his own branding of terminology.....not something from the Scriptures. That SHOULD have been our first red flag. :)
On three different in-house, corps meetings........I personally saw wierwille VERBALLY ABUSE corps with a tongue-lashing with poisonous venom. All three incidents ended with wierwille yelling something about the person devil possessed and evil incarnate. I've shared these episodes before on this forum.
Yeah...........BAD memories from wierwille and bot.
The only good memories I have.......are linked with good-hearted people who love and loved God. But when weighed in the balance of a systematizing of spiritual abuse, the "good" is not reall all that good.
well, i have to say that my relatives..about 20 of them were in the way for maybe..i dont know..10 yrs..and i think a couple are still in..they have nothing bad to say about it either..
Great point, Skyrider - and I couldn't agree more.
I have very fond memories of my first few years in TWI in the early 70's. Everything was peace, love and Jesus. Once people started coming, the need for control grew greater, therefore the need for "leaders" who were control-freaks grew as well. The more control-freaks, the greater the manipulation. Ane more control-freaks became attracted to programs like The Way Corpse. And though not everyone in the Corpse was a control freak - there were plenty of them to go around.
Hope......so good to "see" you. Say hi to hubby for me. :)
Yeah, so much of the corps program had its roots in zealous competition and manipulation. Clearly, wierwille's premise for the corps program was miserably flawed and quickly drowned shortly after his death in 1985.
I agree with you too, Skyrider. Just wanted to add that maybe the good memories some people have are a result of the indoctrination process.
One of TWI's big teachings was renewed mind-how we are to transform our minds to TWI's interpretation of the Bible. There was a whole class devoted to that one doctrine. So, a bad incident happens, ok, quick, renew your mind! Voila! Good memory!
And what about if you saw something wrong, and you questioned it, and leadership couldn't answer your question to your satsfaction? Well, the we were told to just hold it in abeyance, just forget about your questions, maybe they'll be answered in the future. So, you hear wrong teaching, ok, quick, hold it in abeyance! Voila! Good memory!
The fear factor where leadership would single people out and berate them, and say horribly wicked things about people who had left has already been discussed here. So, you don't want that to happen to you, ok, quick, block it all out! Voila! Good memory!
I know I could have, and in fact did go to the Bible to find truth. But the man who taught me the keys to interpreting the Bible lied to me. So, when I looked for truth, I only saw his version. And when something bad happened, it was always my fault, my believing, my fellowship with God. Subconsciously, I had to have good memories. Then I read stories on Greasespot that could be my own stories. And I realize how deeply I was indoctrinated.
I can say with quite a bit of confidence that if I'd quit before I went WOW I could absolutley look back to beautiful memories and nothing but. once I made that commitment, though, it went steadily downhill.
oh, oldiesman, WAY TO GO (har har) on selectively quoting motherof2 out of all meaningful context.
...Although wierwille had seen people come and go constantly throughout his "ministry".......it wasn't until the WOW program and Corps program that wierwille was able to really strongarm (with false prophecies) people to follow thru on their "commitments to God." Anything that stood in the way of fulfilling this/these commitments was "of the devil" and to be squelched. Pregnancies were to be aborted. Family affairs were to be disregarded.
By the mid-70s, wierwille racheted up his vocabulary with the term "cop-out." Any and all corps who left twi, especially upper leadership, were viciously slandered and labeled on Tuesday Night's corps night. The term "cop-out" was incorporated into the wayspeak vocabulary. During those years, many 4th-6th corps were labeled as such.......and never heard from again.
Funny, how wierwille had to incorporate his own branding of terminology.....not something from the Scriptures. That SHOULD have been our first red flag. :)
Excellent, SkyRider !!!!!!!!!!! I love it when you guys nail some detail of TWI's bs arsenal!!!!!!!!!!!
cop-out is really a loaded term. I remember well all that term represented when used for anyone who'd ever left, no matter if they faded away or left during an explosion.
if they could be made an example of to discourage the rest of us from the risk of speaking up, the cop-outs and their pathetic, devilish, destitute lives surely served the purpose of keeping us in check. the longer you considered the words of "the teacher" regarding these copped out people, the harder it was to consider leaving, or questioning, or speaking up.
well, my relatives are sad people oldie man, afraid of reality in a lot of ways, to speak something real might bring doom on themselves..they are held captive by these people's words. it is sad..really. i love them..they have amazing hearts!! but when something bad happens..they run for the hills..not wanting to deal with reality..they say the same phrases over and over..this is greasespot cafe, right? people whose lives have been negatively affected by the way..and you are here..if you want to join the fan club..thats a different website.
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skyrider
It happened again yesterday. I came across another person who took the pfal class......and stayed with twi for almost three years. Yep, back in the early 80s, she took pfal and even attended the roa
skyrider
Oh for Pete's sake, Oldies..........quit SPINNING and DANCING around the room. Wierwille BETRAYED his committed followers......most notably, the WOWs and the Corps. As a young and naive WOW, catcup'
skyrider
Actually..........this thread is about perspective. The longer one stayed around slick vic and his manipulation...........the greater impact from its INDOCTRINATION PROCESS. Of course, you'd like to
oldiesman
Yet another example that if one regrets their twi stint, they have nobody to blame but themselves.
TWI didn't want folks if folks didn't want to be there.
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rascal
Pretty strange way to interpret that post .
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skyrider
Actually..........this thread is about perspective. The longer one stayed around slick vic and his manipulation...........the greater impact from its INDOCTRINATION PROCESS.
Of course, you'd like to turn this thread on its ear.......but since you mentioned regret, I think it has a much broader perspective than that. It really keynotes THE ABUSE FACTOR in twi.
Yeah, Rascal......has quite a slant to do, doesn't it. :)
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Calflor
At first in the late 70's I chalked up the occasional indignity to stupid people, not disimilar to stupid people I had encountered thoughout my entire life up to that point. However, as time went on and it got worse, I came to the conclusion that TWI placed incompetent individuals in postions of power and control based soley on their zealous adherence to their stange doctrine. People who I would have never given the time of day in the real world and now having to take their arrogant holier than thou attitude just became too much, so I got out. Slobbering nerds trying to stick their tongue down my wife's throat...no thank you!
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T-Bone
Yet another example of the fine art of blame-shifting…Or maybe – let's just give credit where credit is due. I regret I was dumb enough to buy into TWI's doctrines and programs that sucked away MY time, MY energy, MY finances, MY love for God, MY love for wife and kids…And I'm one of the lucky ones…being a guy - I wasn't drugged and raped…If TWI had such a laissez faire attitude about people coming and going - why did leadership frequently pepper their teachings with the subliminal message that if you left TWI you're walking away from God and bad $ h1t is gonna happen.
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oldiesman
Perspective varies depending on the individual. If you want to say that "slick vic" indoctrinated and manipulated you, your entitled to your opinion.
But even so, it's an indoctrination process and lifestyle YOU CHOSE TO BELIEVE AND PARTICIPATE IN.
And ... "slick vic" didn't kidnap you, didn't force you and didn't want you to be there if you didn't WANT to be there.
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oldiesman
I agree with you on this point... they should have emphasized the "freely avail" part more especially in the later years.
But still, you can't blame others for your own involvement.
I don't even put a blanket judgment on folks who are involved today...
it's The United States of America and we have freedom of religion...
If twi is their chosen religion and where they think they have their best fellowship with God, then that's what they choose.
By the way, I think this is the overwhelming answer you'd get from most ex-way.
ALL of the folks I know have this same opinion. Thanks for reminding me skyrider.
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T-Bone
Wowwee, the Kool-Aid is strong with this one…the trick of manipulation is that you're not aware you're being manipulated. Which reminds me of one of my favorite quotes – it's currently my signature – here I'll just bring it up here so ya'll can see it better:
"The most successful tyranny is not the one that uses force to assure uniformity but the one that removes the awareness of other possibilities, that makes it seem inconceivable that other ways are viable, that removes the sense that there is an outside." [from Closing of the American Mind by Allan Bloom]
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oldiesman
T-Bone please use larger fonts I can't see.
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MountainTopCO
Oldies,
Large fonts, small fonts, all caps, etc. nothing will help you see. Shall we say…your mind is seared with a hot iron.
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T-Bone
Well, MountainTopCO, I think the problem is actually due to leaving the PFAL-colored-glasses on. It re-formats everything. Don't believe me? Alright then, first look at my text without the PFAL-colored-glasses:
"The most successful tyranny is not the one that uses force to assure uniformity but the one that removes the awareness of other possibilities, that makes it seem inconceivable that other ways are viable, that removes the sense that there is an outside."
Now…put the PFAL-colored-glasses on…hey - be careful with them…don't want you breaking one of my favorite TWI souveneirs…hmmmm…not bad…it gives you that I-know-more-than-God look…maybe you want to try some in titanium frames – they're indestructible – even last through a holocaust…huh? Oh yeah right – back to our experiment – now look at my text again:
The most successful ministry is one that's based on a farce to ensure stupidity – one that removes awareness. It may seem inconceivable and makes no sense to outsiders –but that's The Way for yah.
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MountainTopCO
Good point T-Bone. I think people need to have some personal integrity and remove the Way-colored-glasses and take an honest evaluation of the situation. Then and only then will they see how accurate and applicable your quote is.
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WhiteDove
Really exactly what do you base this assumption on ? I'd like to see your data that you used to arrive at this conclusion.
I was around from the early 70s until the late 80's as well as many others I know. That conclusion is not consistant with the results that I have heard.
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motherof2
well, i have to say that my relatives..about 20 of them were in the way for maybe..i dont know..10 yrs..and i think a couple are still in..they have nothing bad to say about it either..i think that some of them are in CFF and still follow doctrine and are loyal to the way..i do wonder why they left though..they wont speak about it and remain loyal to vpw and lcm. but my grandma claims she only heard the "word of God" there. boy, they really, really indoctrinated my relatives because most have them have never set foot in a church and refuse to do so...and they have taught their children the evils of mainstream christianity too...which really unnerves me...because mainstream christianity is not bad..SURE, NO ONE IS EVER GOING TO BELIEVE THE EXACT SAME THING YOU DO....but christian radio, christian evangelists, christian bookstores, and different churches, are an amazing connection to the rest of us. my relatives in the way will not touch these things..they only have their special tapes and books...it puzzles me. it discourages me. they are isolated spiritually and intolerant in a lot of ways..thinking they are the only ones and such...anyhow, i continue to hop that by any means their perspective will change!
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Hope R.
Great point, Skyrider - and I couldn't agree more.
I have very fond memories of my first few years in TWI in the early 70's. Everything was peace, love and Jesus. Once people started coming, the need for control grew greater, therefore the need for "leaders" who were control-freaks grew as well. The more control-freaks, the greater the manipulation. Ane more control-freaks became attracted to programs like The Way Corpse. And though not everyone in the Corpse was a control freak - there were plenty of them to go around.
Then LCM -- the Grand Master of Control Freaks took over - and it got worse and worse and worse. The longer one stayed in the fold, the more control was enforced - so it was truly a miserable place to be. But by then, some of us had been in so long that we actually believed that TWI was the only way to Gawd and his Woid - the only rule for faith and practice. The longer one stayed the harder it was to make the break. All the good things from the early years had been brushed off as "old wineskins" or "dwelling in the past" including the teachings, the music and the people who'd left - the "cop-outs".
Hindsight is always 20/20. I think I would have had good memories and be more of a TWI defender if I had left in 1981 or 1982 - or at the latest 1986/87 - which still would have been too long, but a good time to get out with everyone else. Unfortunately, I stayed in until July 2000 and have more bad memories than good ones. But that's another story...
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skyrider
T-bone.....I know its a rhetorical question, but I'd like to answer it for others. :)
Although wierwille had seen people come and go constantly throughout his "ministry".......it wasn't until the WOW program and Corps program that wierwille was able to really strongarm (with false prophecies) people to follow thru on their "commitments to God." Anything that stood in the way of fulfilling this/these commitments was "of the devil" and to be squelched. Pregnancies were to be aborted. Family affairs were to be disregarded.
By the mid-70s, wierwille racheted up his vocabulary with the term "cop-out." Any and all corps who left twi, especially upper leadership, were viciously slandered and labeled on Tuesday Night's corps night. The term "cop-out" was incorporated into the wayspeak vocabulary. During those years, many 4th-6th corps were labeled as such.......and never heard from again.
Funny, how wierwille had to incorporate his own branding of terminology.....not something from the Scriptures. That SHOULD have been our first red flag. :)
On three different in-house, corps meetings........I personally saw wierwille VERBALLY ABUSE corps with a tongue-lashing with poisonous venom. All three incidents ended with wierwille yelling something about the person devil possessed and evil incarnate. I've shared these episodes before on this forum.
Yeah...........BAD memories from wierwille and bot.
The only good memories I have.......are linked with good-hearted people who love and loved God. But when weighed in the balance of a systematizing of spiritual abuse, the "good" is not reall all that good.
<_<
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oldiesman
Thanks Mother of 2..
Its Friday
have a great weekend, one and all..
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skyrider
Hope......so good to "see" you. Say hi to hubby for me. :)
Yeah, so much of the corps program had its roots in zealous competition and manipulation. Clearly, wierwille's premise for the corps program was miserably flawed and quickly drowned shortly after his death in 1985.
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VeganXTC
I agree with you too, Skyrider. Just wanted to add that maybe the good memories some people have are a result of the indoctrination process.
One of TWI's big teachings was renewed mind-how we are to transform our minds to TWI's interpretation of the Bible. There was a whole class devoted to that one doctrine. So, a bad incident happens, ok, quick, renew your mind! Voila! Good memory!
And what about if you saw something wrong, and you questioned it, and leadership couldn't answer your question to your satsfaction? Well, the we were told to just hold it in abeyance, just forget about your questions, maybe they'll be answered in the future. So, you hear wrong teaching, ok, quick, hold it in abeyance! Voila! Good memory!
The fear factor where leadership would single people out and berate them, and say horribly wicked things about people who had left has already been discussed here. So, you don't want that to happen to you, ok, quick, block it all out! Voila! Good memory!
I know I could have, and in fact did go to the Bible to find truth. But the man who taught me the keys to interpreting the Bible lied to me. So, when I looked for truth, I only saw his version. And when something bad happened, it was always my fault, my believing, my fellowship with God. Subconsciously, I had to have good memories. Then I read stories on Greasespot that could be my own stories. And I realize how deeply I was indoctrinated.
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potato
I can say with quite a bit of confidence that if I'd quit before I went WOW I could absolutley look back to beautiful memories and nothing but. once I made that commitment, though, it went steadily downhill.
oh, oldiesman, WAY TO GO (har har) on selectively quoting motherof2 out of all meaningful context.
(edited to correct faulty recollection)
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T-Bone
Excellent, SkyRider !!!!!!!!!!! I love it when you guys nail some detail of TWI's bs arsenal!!!!!!!!!!!
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potato
cop-out is really a loaded term. I remember well all that term represented when used for anyone who'd ever left, no matter if they faded away or left during an explosion.
if they could be made an example of to discourage the rest of us from the risk of speaking up, the cop-outs and their pathetic, devilish, destitute lives surely served the purpose of keeping us in check. the longer you considered the words of "the teacher" regarding these copped out people, the harder it was to consider leaving, or questioning, or speaking up.
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motherof2
well, my relatives are sad people oldie man, afraid of reality in a lot of ways, to speak something real might bring doom on themselves..they are held captive by these people's words. it is sad..really. i love them..they have amazing hearts!! but when something bad happens..they run for the hills..not wanting to deal with reality..they say the same phrases over and over..this is greasespot cafe, right? people whose lives have been negatively affected by the way..and you are here..if you want to join the fan club..thats a different website.
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waysider
Here are 2 words I would like to throw into the mix:Brain Washing.
Oh,sorry,Brainwashing is only one word.
Never mind, back to the discussion of why memories often vary.
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