OM... IF you can use his "good works" as an indication of "what's on the inside" THEN I can use his "bad works" as an indication of "what's on the inside"...
This is true.
I think it's fair that one may describe what a person is on the inside by what they do, what they teach, what they think, what they speak, etc.
You just have to admit that YOU THINK he was "born again", you cannot prove it, and you can list his works from here to kingdom come... and it still won't prove it.
He said he believed in Jesus Christ and that God raised him from the dead; he said he loved Jesus Christ and Christ was his lord and savior.
I believe Wierwille when he said that, so yeah, I think and believe he is born again, because I believe that Wierwille was honest when he said that and God's Word is truth and will come to pass.
He said he believed in Jesus Christ and that God raised him from the dead; he said he loved Jesus Christ and Christ was his lord and savior.
I believe Wierwille when he said that, so yeah, I think and believe he is born again, because I believe that Wierwille was honest when he said that and God's Word is truth and will come to pass.
And you believed him when he said a blizzard pinned him into the city in Tulsa.
And that he saw a snowstorm and heard from God that he'd be the recipient of special
revelation hidden for nearly 2000 years.
And that twi's programs were always about serving the individuals.
And when he said he never threw anybody out.
And when he said he always fought to keep people in.
As I recall, the initial intent of this thread was to discuss whether or not teachings we received in TWI were or were not selective in nature. I also believe we have established that the term "teaching" goes beyond what is publically expounded or presented in written or recorded form and therefore should be understood to include what is taught by example.
One poster has stated on post #98 "We know what was in Wierwilles' heart by what he taught--------"
Its' difficult to disagree with that logic when weighed with the understanding of what "teaching" is.
Food for thought:
Proverbs 4:23------Keep thy heart with all diligence; for out of it are the issues of life.
A man of God who has genuine concern for the well-being of those to whom he ministers would be wise to heed those words and foolhardy to disregard them.
The bible describes the men who wrote the bible as "holy men of God".
I don't compare Wierwille to these men, but if we're talking sins, some of those men committed worse than Wierwille and they are called "holy men of God"...
I couldn’t imagine God that hard up for someone to write His message as to employ an unrepentant sexual predator…I mean…how much credence would the Scriptures have if there was a verse written by VPW like:
“You shall not commit adultery – but as for me and my motor coach – I’m exempt.”
And you believed him when he said a blizzard pinned him into the city in Tulsa.
And that he saw a snowstorm and heard from God that he'd be the recipient of special
revelation hidden for nearly 2000 years.
And that twi's programs were always about serving the individuals.
And when he said he never threw anybody out.
And when he said he always fought to keep people in.
Etc, etc.
However,
quite a few of those were shown to be lies.
Let's not forget: And you believed him when he said he wrote all of those books.
One poster has stated on post #98 "We know what was in Wierwilles' heart by what he taught--------"
Its' difficult to disagree with that logic when weighed with the understanding of what "teaching" is.
Like: "it's your place in the body of Christ to sexually service the man (and men) of God"... yeah, that shows me what was in his heart.
Food for thought:
Proverbs 4:23------Keep thy heart with all diligence; for out of it are the issues of life.
A man of God who has genuine concern for the well-being of those to whom he ministers would be wise to heed those words and foolhardy to disregard them.
Exactly... veepee didn't heed them and disregarded the hearts and lives of those he was supposed to minister to...
...But from a godlyperspective, some good fruit would be:
folks coming to a greater knowledge and understanding of the truth;
greater appreciation of the bible; (in my case, simple appreciation since I didn't appreciate it before)
greater love for God and Christ;
folks getting born again;
folks learning who they are in Christ;
folks still benefitting from his teaching...
Why that's just tremendous! Praise the Lord! Isn't God wonderful! He's still at work in the world today helping people understa… [reader, please insert cartoon sound effect of screeching brakes here]…Whoa, whoa, whoa, back up a minute – I thought you were talking about God Almighty. I failed to notice the small "g" – of "godly." My bad. You're attributing all this to the little god vpw…Dagnabit – I didn't know this was that kind of revival meeting – to revive an old idol. It's a disgrace for me to be here today! [reader, please cue up sound track of man stomping out of tent revival as choir is singing "To vic be the glory great things he has done..."]
My bad. You're attributing all this to the little god vpw…Dagnabit – I didn't know this was that kind of revival meeting – to revive an old idol. It's a disgrace for me to be here today! [reader, please cue up sound track of man stomping out of tent revival as choir is singing "To vic be the glory great things he has done..."]
"“You shall not commit adultery – but as for me and my motor coach – I’m exempt.”"
I am ROTFL
As far as let God sort it out? So, we are not to think? We are to accept the good the bad and the ugly as the same thing -- it's all good because some where down the line GOD will sort it all out.
I am sorry but MY GOD gave me a brain.
He tells us to test the spirits
He tells us to be a fruit inspector
That does not sound like a God who wants us to think its all good and let God sort it out later. To me that is a lazy person's way out.
Gee, I didn't know that was going to hurt someone -- I figured God would sort it all out.
We gotta a chapter and verse on this? OR a Wierwillism that makes it all up to GOD to sort out?
I think Word Wolf is using his great thinking brain to decide when he has been tricked and when he hasn't, I don't see an escape valve here "let God sort it all out."
Which would stop, prevent or hinder him from using his BRAIN.
God gave us/him the ability to think. HE gave us senses to smell a rat. He gave us logic to recognize a lie and he gave us GUTS to speak up about it.
Here is my take on the last few posts:(paraphrasing)
Oldies said he believed VPW and TWI were truthful in what was said and done.
WordWolf said he did not accept that statement to be accurate.
TempleLady said let God sort it out. ( I took that to be God would be the judge of what was true or false.)
I can see how confusion could enter into the meaning of what was posted but I don't think anyone was suggesting blind obedience because God would sort it all out eventually.
I used to think the Way did everything perfect, but then I started to think. It didn't just get selective all of a sudden, it had to come from somewhere. I do agree with some who have said, it looked great (on the outside). But there always was and is a hidden agenda. The apple doesn't fall far from the tree, does it.
Please allow an addendum to your post. It was definately a selective teaching agenda. I was there until just a few years ago and now it's that way more than ever. There is a formula for almost everythng now. They have made moving the Word a science.
There are mathematical stats on how-
If you witness to so many you should have so many coming to fellowship.
If you give so much, you should get so much
If you prepare so much you wll avoid so much, and on and on.
And guess what it's all about. Promogating the love of God? (buzzer) wrong. It's all about the corporation.
Hail the corporation.
Please excuse me for thinking=doesn't God give the increase? Now he can. We just love Him and each other on a daily basis in our own lives and families, (and on GSC)
i think that one of perhaps twis most selective habits when it comes to teaching/doctrine....etc
has a lot do with how 99.99% of the world's spiritual writings were pre-considered to be lies and deception
coming from places like that logic/script regarding "the value of a counterfeit is..."
it seems to make a real wide shadow to box
where light is never cast where one doesnt look
and the deeply tribal part of it (selective teachings) is perhaps even deeper and older and less-noticed
than alchoholism, greed, pride, and sexual predations, whatnot on the surface
and those scripts regarding the 5 ways of serpent's trick and such...
really strangles ones capacity to doubt, and otherwise be inquisitive and honest and able to be transformed and renewed yada yada
we do not honestly investigate that which troubles us most
we just want it gone, because we pre-judge it an enemy (books/teachings)
no authentic practice of Friendship, in that regard
and so no genuine presence of Christ, is us...in that regard
heresy = choosing, at its root...an exclusion (by way of limited inclusion) without prior examination
and not just mere examination..but an honest actual examination
there is sin from the damage done by such extreme choosing and pre-judgement prior to knowing
which then, realy is a heresy...for one who is somehow universally spiritually whatever (as Christ surely was and is)
twi 1,2,3 or 4 knows little to nothing about the bulk of christian religion that is demonized to them,
and perhaps even less about the many eastern schools, many indigenous schools, and many modern and post-modern sciences and psychologies and spiritualities and perspectives and points of view and such
and so we come to know very little about we didnt know and refused to look at in the first place
...or last admit we looked at
cuz ya know...it seems ever more obvious to me that VP was reading and learning wildly outside of even christianity with his maps and models and programs and whatnot
and also wildly stripping and reshaping what he read
envy, malice,...i dunno...his "counterfeit script" probably had a lot to do with it
yet he was promoting (and seemingly carried on) a legacy of more or less hillbilly ignorance and suspician
regarding 99.99% of the growing body human history of spiritual and religions thought and tradition and practice
...
btw...not saying that everyone should read everything for salvation, or happiness, or anything else
just that an honest teacher should prolly not claim superior knowledge about things they've only barely peeked at
which is why ive often said that VPs spiritual education was like one of the kids in "Porky's"
...mistaking a peek through a hole in the wall for ordinary full-on sex
simply said...a teacher shouldnt teach the value of a book they've never even really ever read
It looks to me like WW was sorting things out and that was a way of getting him to back off which looked "nice" but was actually BS. Looked like a nice sweet acceptable response to get WW to stop stating the truth as he knows it.
Perhaps I am wrong.
But that is how I read it, thus my response and defense of Wordwolf
It may appear at first glance that we disagree but I think that is because I was not very clear in how I interpreted TempleLadys' post. I agree with you on the post by OM. I also agree with you on the rebutal by WW. The difficulty arises in that I thought TLs' response was referring to the broad scope of God sorting things out at the Bema. Perhaps that is what she had in mind. Perhaps that is not at all what she had in mind. The bottom line is that I should not have assumed what she had in mind but rather I should have invited her to elaborate on her statement. Speaking only for myself, I do believe God will sort it all out at the appropriate time. I feel confident I can believe that because God himself gave me revelation to that effect just this morning as I was pumping gas during the greatest snowstorm anyone has seen in over 2,000 years. Fortunately, it let up just in time for me to get to the PFAL class on time. We learned some pretty amazing things there. For example: Jesus was Gods' son! I told my grandson Cletus(that's his name) and he said "Jeepers, Grandpa, who didn't know that?!" What has me puzzled is where he ever heard a word like "jeepers".
I may just be having problems as I can never tell when I read something if it is suppose to have a capital H or small. Then there is the whole Large S - small s thing to contend with. Then, I keep seeing greek words written above the English so it gets confusing.
Then again I have forgotten more than I have ever known -- or something...
My last year in twi, all leadership were told to teach at least once a month on abundant sharing (which is going beyond the tithe in giving). TALK ABOUT THEM BEING SELECTIVE!
What the **** was that all about! Gotta make sure the dough keeps coming in.
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oldiesman
This is true.
I think it's fair that one may describe what a person is on the inside by what they do, what they teach, what they think, what they speak, etc.
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oldiesman
He said he believed in Jesus Christ and that God raised him from the dead; he said he loved Jesus Christ and Christ was his lord and savior.
I believe Wierwille when he said that, so yeah, I think and believe he is born again, because I believe that Wierwille was honest when he said that and God's Word is truth and will come to pass.
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Tom Strange
True... you can believe him... but that doesn't prove anything... and frankly no one can... one way or the other...
I can say that I believe a peanut butter and jelly sandwich with a glass of chocolate milk proves he wasn't...
...and that would have about as much relevance...
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WordWolf
And you believed him when he said a blizzard pinned him into the city in Tulsa.
And that he saw a snowstorm and heard from God that he'd be the recipient of special
revelation hidden for nearly 2000 years.
And that twi's programs were always about serving the individuals.
And when he said he never threw anybody out.
And when he said he always fought to keep people in.
Etc, etc.
However,
quite a few of those were shown to be lies.
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templelady
Let God SOrt it out
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waysider
As I recall, the initial intent of this thread was to discuss whether or not teachings we received in TWI were or were not selective in nature. I also believe we have established that the term "teaching" goes beyond what is publically expounded or presented in written or recorded form and therefore should be understood to include what is taught by example.
One poster has stated on post #98 "We know what was in Wierwilles' heart by what he taught--------"
Its' difficult to disagree with that logic when weighed with the understanding of what "teaching" is.
Food for thought:
Proverbs 4:23------Keep thy heart with all diligence; for out of it are the issues of life.
A man of God who has genuine concern for the well-being of those to whom he ministers would be wise to heed those words and foolhardy to disregard them.
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T-Bone
I couldn’t imagine God that hard up for someone to write His message as to employ an unrepentant sexual predator…I mean…how much credence would the Scriptures have if there was a verse written by VPW like:
“You shall not commit adultery – but as for me and my motor coach – I’m exempt.”
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Tom Strange
Let's not forget: And you believed him when he said he wrote all of those books.
Like: "it's your place in the body of Christ to sexually service the man (and men) of God"... yeah, that shows me what was in his heart.
Exactly... veepee didn't heed them and disregarded the hearts and lives of those he was supposed to minister to...
regardless... it's not about works keeds...
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T-Bone
Why that's just tremendous! Praise the Lord! Isn't God wonderful! He's still at work in the world today helping people understa… [reader, please insert cartoon sound effect of screeching brakes here]…Whoa, whoa, whoa, back up a minute – I thought you were talking about God Almighty. I failed to notice the small "g" – of "godly." My bad. You're attributing all this to the little god vpw…Dagnabit – I didn't know this was that kind of revival meeting – to revive an old idol. It's a disgrace for me to be here today! [reader, please cue up sound track of man stomping out of tent revival as choir is singing "To vic be the glory great things he has done..."]
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skyrider
the little god vpw.......
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oldiesman
That's good wisdom Mo.
I believe God already sorted things out and we're all gonna be there.
Praise God.
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Dot Matrix
T-bone said
"“You shall not commit adultery – but as for me and my motor coach – I’m exempt.”"
I am ROTFL
As far as let God sort it out? So, we are not to think? We are to accept the good the bad and the ugly as the same thing -- it's all good because some where down the line GOD will sort it all out.
I am sorry but MY GOD gave me a brain.
He tells us to test the spirits
He tells us to be a fruit inspector
That does not sound like a God who wants us to think its all good and let God sort it out later. To me that is a lazy person's way out.
Gee, I didn't know that was going to hurt someone -- I figured God would sort it all out.
We gotta a chapter and verse on this? OR a Wierwillism that makes it all up to GOD to sort out?
I think Word Wolf is using his great thinking brain to decide when he has been tricked and when he hasn't, I don't see an escape valve here "let God sort it all out."
Which would stop, prevent or hinder him from using his BRAIN.
God gave us/him the ability to think. HE gave us senses to smell a rat. He gave us logic to recognize a lie and he gave us GUTS to speak up about it.
You go Word Wolf!
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waysider
Here is my take on the last few posts:(paraphrasing)
Oldies said he believed VPW and TWI were truthful in what was said and done.
WordWolf said he did not accept that statement to be accurate.
TempleLady said let God sort it out. ( I took that to be God would be the judge of what was true or false.)
I can see how confusion could enter into the meaning of what was posted but I don't think anyone was suggesting blind obedience because God would sort it all out eventually.
That's my 2 cents-------fire away (ducking)
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polar bear
Great thread Skyrider-You are dead right.
I used to think the Way did everything perfect, but then I started to think. It didn't just get selective all of a sudden, it had to come from somewhere. I do agree with some who have said, it looked great (on the outside). But there always was and is a hidden agenda. The apple doesn't fall far from the tree, does it.
Please allow an addendum to your post. It was definately a selective teaching agenda. I was there until just a few years ago and now it's that way more than ever. There is a formula for almost everythng now. They have made moving the Word a science.
There are mathematical stats on how-
If you witness to so many you should have so many coming to fellowship.
If you give so much, you should get so much
If you prepare so much you wll avoid so much, and on and on.
And guess what it's all about. Promogating the love of God? (buzzer) wrong. It's all about the corporation.
Hail the corporation.
Please excuse me for thinking=doesn't God give the increase? Now he can. We just love Him and each other on a daily basis in our own lives and families, (and on GSC)
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sirguessalot
i think that one of perhaps twis most selective habits when it comes to teaching/doctrine....etc
has a lot do with how 99.99% of the world's spiritual writings were pre-considered to be lies and deception
coming from places like that logic/script regarding "the value of a counterfeit is..."
it seems to make a real wide shadow to box
where light is never cast where one doesnt look
and the deeply tribal part of it (selective teachings) is perhaps even deeper and older and less-noticed
than alchoholism, greed, pride, and sexual predations, whatnot on the surface
and those scripts regarding the 5 ways of serpent's trick and such...
really strangles ones capacity to doubt, and otherwise be inquisitive and honest and able to be transformed and renewed yada yada
we do not honestly investigate that which troubles us most
we just want it gone, because we pre-judge it an enemy (books/teachings)
no authentic practice of Friendship, in that regard
and so no genuine presence of Christ, is us...in that regard
heresy = choosing, at its root...an exclusion (by way of limited inclusion) without prior examination
and not just mere examination..but an honest actual examination
there is sin from the damage done by such extreme choosing and pre-judgement prior to knowing
which then, realy is a heresy...for one who is somehow universally spiritually whatever (as Christ surely was and is)
twi 1,2,3 or 4 knows little to nothing about the bulk of christian religion that is demonized to them,
and perhaps even less about the many eastern schools, many indigenous schools, and many modern and post-modern sciences and psychologies and spiritualities and perspectives and points of view and such
and so we come to know very little about we didnt know and refused to look at in the first place
...or last admit we looked at
cuz ya know...it seems ever more obvious to me that VP was reading and learning wildly outside of even christianity with his maps and models and programs and whatnot
and also wildly stripping and reshaping what he read
envy, malice,...i dunno...his "counterfeit script" probably had a lot to do with it
yet he was promoting (and seemingly carried on) a legacy of more or less hillbilly ignorance and suspician
regarding 99.99% of the growing body human history of spiritual and religions thought and tradition and practice
...
btw...not saying that everyone should read everything for salvation, or happiness, or anything else
just that an honest teacher should prolly not claim superior knowledge about things they've only barely peeked at
which is why ive often said that VPs spiritual education was like one of the kids in "Porky's"
...mistaking a peek through a hole in the wall for ordinary full-on sex
simply said...a teacher shouldnt teach the value of a book they've never even really ever read
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Dot Matrix
Waysider
Thanks for your post.
The way I saw it was Oldies defended TWI
WW then responded
Then it was suggested to let God sort things out.
It looks to me like WW was sorting things out and that was a way of getting him to back off which looked "nice" but was actually BS. Looked like a nice sweet acceptable response to get WW to stop stating the truth as he knows it.
Perhaps I am wrong.
But that is how I read it, thus my response and defense of Wordwolf
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waysider
Dot
It may appear at first glance that we disagree but I think that is because I was not very clear in how I interpreted TempleLadys' post. I agree with you on the post by OM. I also agree with you on the rebutal by WW. The difficulty arises in that I thought TLs' response was referring to the broad scope of God sorting things out at the Bema. Perhaps that is what she had in mind. Perhaps that is not at all what she had in mind. The bottom line is that I should not have assumed what she had in mind but rather I should have invited her to elaborate on her statement. Speaking only for myself, I do believe God will sort it all out at the appropriate time. I feel confident I can believe that because God himself gave me revelation to that effect just this morning as I was pumping gas during the greatest snowstorm anyone has seen in over 2,000 years. Fortunately, it let up just in time for me to get to the PFAL class on time. We learned some pretty amazing things there. For example: Jesus was Gods' son! I told my grandson Cletus(that's his name) and he said "Jeepers, Grandpa, who didn't know that?!" What has me puzzled is where he ever heard a word like "jeepers".
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rascal
Waysider, you are so funny.
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Dot Matrix
I may just be having problems as I can never tell when I read something if it is suppose to have a capital H or small. Then there is the whole Large S - small s thing to contend with. Then, I keep seeing greek words written above the English so it gets confusing.
Then again I have forgotten more than I have ever known -- or something...
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waysider
Doctor to patient:
"Zis fascination mit large esses, ven did it all shtart,hmmm?"
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polar bear
I'm not done with this thread yet, it's a doozy-
Speaking of selective-(more like seductive)
My last year in twi, all leadership were told to teach at least once a month on abundant sharing (which is going beyond the tithe in giving). TALK ABOUT THEM BEING SELECTIVE!
What the **** was that all about! Gotta make sure the dough keeps coming in.
What about just teaching the LOVE OF GOD.
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