Selective Teachings

[smitty]

How about the all important teaching called "jet packing" ? I still use that skill when I travel. I was also taught how to sweep out a horse stall at Rome City!!!!

[oldiesman]

A person can stand in the pulpit and declare the moon is made of green cheese, it simply does not make it true.

Teaching is not limited to what is expounded from the pulpit or recorded on some sound stage. A person must teach by example also or their ramblings are just that: ramblings. I would humbly suggest that one look beyond the flowery words on a recorded tape and ask themself honestly whether the expounder adhered to his or her profession of what they presented as Truth. Jesus never recorded any tapes or spoke at any SNS(Sunday night service) but he certainly lived one amazingly exemplary life. Actions speak louder than words.

If our lives and walks (including Wierwilles) are compared with the Master, I humbly suggest we all would fail miserably.

[T-Bone]

If our lives and walks (including Wierwilles) are compared with the Master, I humbly suggest we all would fail miserably.

I used to follow that same line of reasoning when I was in TWI. Now, I'm not saying there's anything really wrong with that line of thought…but I think it tends to blur the issues. Especially so after reading Matthew 7 – a WHOLE chapter of the Master teaching discernment – laying out various categories and reference points for comparing things that differ.

I know this is not Doctrinal so I'll try to be as brief as possible…Matthew 7: 1, 2 "Do not judge lest you be judged. For in the way you judge, you will be judged; and by your standard of measure, it will be measured to you." In my opinion this is one of the passages that some mistakenly interpret as prohibiting all moral judgment. However, when read in the context of the whole chapter – it is one item of a discourse on discernment. The first section [verses 1-20] call for us to make a decision, a judgment, between things that differ. Then verses 21-27 indicate Jesus' criteria – how He judges people. Furthermore, note Jesus' qualifying term in verse 5 "You hypocrite, first take the log out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to take the speck out of your brother's eye." It appears to me what Jesus is forbidding is hypocritical judging. In fact, He said you can help your brother with his little problem once you remove your own BIG problem.

And skipping to verses 15 and 16 for another item relevant to your statement - consider the warning to beware of false prophets and that they are identified by their fruits – that is something you can see – and the Master said we're to make a judgment call – is their fruit good or bad?

...In fact – I don't really see any verses in this chapter where the Master tells us to compare our lives and walks to Him. I agree there is no comparison with our feeble attempts at doing good and His walk on earth. I am tempted to think when religious leaders pull out the we're-not-to-judge-others-card they are really not wanting anyone to scrutinize their own lives.

In the memories of my TWI experience there is something so disturbingly incongruous between the pulpit preaching and behavior modeling of VPW. It's flat out horrifying how VPW would yell at responsible adults in the Way Corps for failing to put God first by not coming to the Rock or Corps week – putting them down because their job had a higher priority. Yet the sexual predator log in VPW's one good eye seemed to be his highest priority – whether he was sabotaging the morals of his leadership-in-training by showing his favorite doggie porn video or drugging up the next victim for his other log.

[oldiesman]

And skipping to verses 15 and 16 for another item relevant to your statement - consider the warning to beware of false prophets and that they are identified by their fruits – that is something you can see – and the Master said we're to make a judgment call – is their fruit good or bad?

The fruit of Wierwilles life and teachings are both good and bad, so I believe your question is non conclusive as a blanket, one-size-fits-all rhetorical question that has a conclusive answer for everyone.

[T-Bone]

The fruit of Wierwilles life and teachings are both good and bad, so I believe your question is non conclusive as a blanket, one-size-fits-all rhetorical question that has a conclusive answer for everyone.

So you disagree with what Jesus said in Matthew 7: 15-20

15 Watch out for false prophets. They come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ferocious wolves. 16 By their fruit you will recognize them. Do people pick grapes from thorn bushes, or figs from thistles? 17 Likewise every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. 18 A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, and a bad tree cannot bear good fruit. 19 Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20 Thus, by their fruit you will recognize them.

I know this is a rather simple idea to grasp – but I'll risk pointing out the obvious for the benefit of those want to cut through the smokescreen of hypocrisy prevalent in some religious outfits. In the above verses Jesus did not say we're to go through each piece of fruit on a particular tree and determine if the tree is overall good or bad. His instructions were a lot simpler than that – look at the type of fruit on the tree – that indicates what type of tree it is. Especially noting verse 20 – by their fruit you will know them. In my opinion – Jesus' instructions appear to lend themselves to being an extremely easy process for determining CONCLUSIVELY whether or not one is dealing with a false prophet or wolf in sheep's clothing.

I know – a little too simple for some people's taste. But if you consider how simple Jesus' criteria for judging people is [verses 21-27] – those professing to do work in His name and those building a house – He says nothing about what these people taught.

21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father who is in heaven.

22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy by thy name, and by thy name cast out demons, and by thy name do many mighty works?

23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

24 Every one therefore that heareth these words of mine, and doeth them, shall be likened unto a wise man, who built his house upon the rock:

25 and the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and if fell not: for it was founded upon the rock.

26 And every one that heareth these words of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, who built his house upon the sand:

27 and the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and smote upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall thereof.

It appears to me that the Master's criteria is a simple standard of whether or not someone is DOING the will of the Father and if they hear Jesus' words and DO them…Which kind of brings me back to thinking about the beginning of Matthew 7. Perhaps Christians are to keep in mind the Lord's criteria for judging people and reflect on how our own lives stack up to that. Maybe we wouldn't fall into hypocritical judging so easily. True – only the Lord knows the answer of where someone is at [according to verses 21-27] – we cannot see into another person's heart or even understand our own sometimes. Perhaps that is why He gave a very simple method for discerning false prophets and wolves in sheep's clothing – we don't look on the inside [the heart] but on the outside [the fruit].

Edited December 6, 2006 by T-Bone

[oldiesman]

T-Bone,

If the answer were as simple as that, you'd have to throw away the Song of Solomon, Psalms, Proverbs, and maybe even the Epistles because of the evil works of the writers.

Might as well throw out the entire bible because the whole thing was written by imperfect, flawed, sinning humans.

Your formula seems to be simple:

Just look at the fruit of these men, when they walked wickedly, and call them false prophets based upon the fruit produced when they walked wickedly, and forget everything else.

[rascal]

TBone, after all......we musn`t let scriptures interfere with our preconcieved notions of what we would LIKE for them to mean.

There was an old sign that used to hang on the wall in our cabin....

*My mind is made up...Don`t confuse me with the facts*

I guess it doesn`t matter what the scriptures say about false prophets, wolves in sheep`s clothing and the evidence of fruit, the standards of a christian much less a leaders....shrug.

[T-Bone]

T-Bone,

If the answer were as simple as that, you'd have to throw away the Song of Solomon, Psalms, Proverbs, and maybe even the Epistles because of the evil works of the writers.

Might as well throw out the entire bible because the whole thing was written by imperfect, flawed, sinning humans.

Your formula seems to be simple:

Just look at the fruit of these men, when they walked wickedly, and call them false prophets based upon the fruit produced when they walked wickedly, and forget everything else.

Maybe you're confusing what people teach and do with the end result [the fruit] of what they teach and do - the fruit on a tree is the culmination of its work - and can only produce the type of fruit peculiar to its species. I guess you want to complicate or deviate from Jesus' SIMPLE instructions. Identify false prophets and wolves in sheep's clothing by their fruit! What has been the fruit – the end result – of VPW's teaching and practices? Impressive fruit – yeah right – a hodge-podge of erroneous doctrines, numerous victims of his sexual advances and an organization that carries on his legacy of using people for the sake of its own existence!

I am appalled that you would put VPW in the same category as the writers of Scripture. Okay – we're talking about humans here – everyone sins – yup, yup. Why look at old David – he committed adultery and orchestrated the death of the woman's husband. The apostle Paul claimed he was the chief of sinners. But in these or the other writers – I don't see a lifestyle DOMINATED by sin! When the Bible slaps a label on someone I think it's because their life is so dominated by what they do – it is in essence what they have become – someone is termed an "adulterer" or a "murderer" or a "thief" for example... When is a thief not a thief? Do you say when he's not stealing? Well - I say maybe he's sleeping or lacks opportunity to steal at the moment.I get the idea from the Bible [like Ephesians 4:28 he that steals – stop stealing – start working that he may have to give] a thief is no longer a thief when he becomes something else – a worker that gives to someone in need….When was VPW not a sexual predator?

…Let's make this real easy – stand back from the tree – especially all you tree-huggers out there - just enough so you can look at the fruit.

Edited December 6, 2006 by T-Bone

[act2]

T-Bone, I could not have said it better!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Thank you for saying what I have wanted to say, but did not have the words!!!

Edited to add T-Bone's name.

Edited December 6, 2006 by act2

[penguin]

I would say twi should have been responsible to teach how to purchase a home (and even a decent car) because they said it was available to get these things without going into debt. Never ONCE did I hear the "how to" of either---and they even bragged about how they were teaching how to own a home without going into debt at anniversary meeting just a couple of years ago. Most innies just shook their head yes at that one-

[waysider]

"Might as well throw out the entire bible because the whole thing was written by imperfect, sinning humans."

Oh My!----- Have we so quickly forgotten session 2 of PFAL ? Isn't it there that the good dr. himself teaches us that all scripture is God breathed? Does he not then expound upon how all scripture is profitable? Does he not tell us that it is for the purpose of doctrine, reproof, and correction? Is it being suggested then that VPW spoke and wrote as The Holy Spirit gave him utterance? Herein,perhaps, is where the discrepancy lies. Even IF the PFAL class had been given from God, it most surely was given to someone other than VPW . The proof that PFAL was not VPW's own work has been quite extensively documented. Yes, the "writers" of the bible were imperfect human beings but according to what we were taught, their words were given by God.And since the original intent of this thread was to explore the possibilty that followers of TWI were subjected to "selective teaching", allow me to resurrect the memory of session 3 of PFAL in which VPW himself illustrated how Psalm 14:1 could be used to "selectively" prove the non existance of God. Psalm 14:1 clearly states"there is no God." Of course, anyone who remembers this segment of the class will also remember that this twisted meaning was accommplished by "selectively" removing it from the context which stated "the fool hath said in his heart, there is no God."

VPW on the same level as David or Paul?------You would have to have some truly irrefutable proof for me to even entertain the possibility.

[oldiesman]

...What has been the fruit – the end result – of VPW's teaching and practices?...

I'll leave the bad fruit up to you to communicate if you wish. We certainly can't ignore it and it matters.

But from a godly perspective, some good fruit would be:

folks coming to a greater knowledge and understanding of the truth;

greater appreciation of the bible; (in my case, simple appreciation since I didn't appreciate it before)

greater love for God and Christ;

folks getting born again;

folks learning who they are in Christ;

folks still benefitting from his teaching...

********************

You are appalled I compare David, Solomon, and Saul of Tarsus to Wierwille in the sin category?

Golly, if the internet were around back then, I think these guys would be way more condemned than Wierwille ever was.

These men committed much much worse evil than Wierwille; yet, God worked with them to communicate tremendous truths that are ever enduring.

VPW on the same level as David or Paul?------

They are not on the same level.

David, Solomon and Saul of Tarsus committed much worse evils.

[Belle]

Selective teachings isn't the only selection going on, eh, Waysider?

[oldiesman]

There are double standards being applied but not by me.

[waysider]

"God worked with them(David, Solomon and Saul) to communicate tremendous truths that are ever enduring."

Perhaps the answer lies in the opening of that quote where it is stated"God worked with them."

Nikita Krushev memorized all 4 Gospels and could quote them verbatim. There were many great truths revealed in his quoting but since he ,by his own admission , did not believe them, it is unlikely "God worked with him" and thus these truths were obscured by his dilution of their importance.

BTW-----In the interest of preserving "mathmatical accuracy" allow me to point out that the inverse of "selective teaching" is "selective hearing."

[T-Bone]

I'll leave the bad fruit up to you to communicate if you wish. We certainly can't ignore it and it matters.

But from a godly perspective, some good fruit would be:

folks coming to a greater knowledge and understanding of the truth;

greater appreciation of the bible; (in my case, simple appreciation since I didn't appreciate it before)

greater love for God and Christ;

folks getting born again;

folks learning who they are in Christ;

folks still benefitting from his teaching...

********************

You are appalled I compare David, Solomon, and Saul of Tarsus to Wierwille in the sin category?

Golly, if the internet were around back then, I think these guys would be way more condemned than Wierwille ever was.

These men committed much much worse evil than Wierwille; yet, God worked with them to communicate tremendous truths that are ever enduring.

They are not on the same level.

David, Solomon and Saul of Tarsus committed much worse evils.

I guess that’s your take on things… What about I Corinthians 3: 6? Paul said he planted, Apollos watered but GOD gave the increase! Mine? When I think of how God works with us sinners – I tend to give credit where credit is due. God can work things out for His people IN SPITE of people and circumstances – just as easily as He can work ALONG WITH obedient believers and favorable situations.

They didn’t need anything like the Internet back then to expose the sin of people – I think God handled that nasty role just fine – hmmmmm – I’m thinking of Nathaniel confronting David or Peter confronting Ananias and Sapphira for starters…A pity you’re so enamored with VPW as to besmirch the life of someone like David – whom the Bible says was a man after God’s own heart…So now you want me to switch from judging a person’s character to comparing which sins are worse. I never said any of VPW’s sins were worse than those who wrote the Bible. I’m saying VPW’s character doesn’t even come close to what the Bible says exemplifies a Christian!

[Tom Strange]

Can I get an Amen Brother!

[oldiesman]

I’m saying VPW’s character doesn’t even come close to what the Bible says exemplifies a Christian!

I disagree.

A Christian is one who is saved, born again, with Christ in Him / Her the Hope of Glory, via God's Grace and belief in Christ ( Roman's 10:9 ).

Christianity is about what God has wrought thru Christ, not about man's good character.

[T-Bone]

None are so blind as those who will not see... listen…or read…er…mmmm…or something like that…I never said anything about whether he was a Christian or not… I said VPW's character doesn't even come close to what the Bible says exemplifies a Christian! Character is what you are when no one else is around – yeah – just VPW all by himself in the Motor Coach - oh..except for some poor woman that he doped up – well – mmmmm – guess she didn't count since she was half out of it anyway.

Edited December 7, 2006 by T-Bone

[waysider]

Let me see if I understand this correctly.

One poster states( in essence) that it is his opinion that VPW partook of activties and actions that were unbecoming of a man of God. A quick glance at I Timothy would reveal that a man of God should be above reproach. Hence, poster number one seems to have a valid point.

Poster number two states(in essence) that "Christ in you" should be the criteria for evaluating said man of Gods' faults and shortcomings and that Chrisianity is about what is on the inside, not what is manifested on the outside. Well now, here is the dilemma. The man of God whose character is in question is one and the same who told us holy men of God spoke as God moved them. So, Do we go with what Timothy spoke as he was inspired by God or do we chalk it up to "Christ in you" gives one a license to do as they please and credit it to Grace?

You see the men of the bible who were cited here bore one very striking difference to VPW. They actually acknowledged that they had fallen short of walking a perfect walk.

[oldiesman]

And so did Dr. Wierwille, many, many times.

…I never said anything about whether he was a Christian or not… I said VPW's character doesn't even come close to what the Bible says exemplifies a Christian! ...

And your point is?

Come on T-Bone, wheres the beef?

If you say Wierwille wasn't born again, at least we have something to argue about. :)

[skyrider]

A true minister is measured in I Timothy 3..........and wierwille failed miserably.

Wouldn't you agree?

Aren't the Scriptures....twi's ONLY rule of faith AND practice?

Yep, that's what ole vp declared.........so.....

Let's briefly look at I Timothy 3.....verse 2 says "A bishop (an overseer) then MUST be blameless." Strike one against wierwille. Vigilent (nope.....ole wierwille let the devil in). Strike two against wierwille. Sober (nope.......drambuie-drinking wierwille just couldn't stop). Strike Three against wierwille.

Of the first THREE qualifications...........three strikes against wierwille.

Shall I go on???????????

The list of qualifications for an overseer is long.......and wierwille failed on THE FIRST THREE LISTED.

Yeah...........I repeat. Wierwille failed miserably as a true minister.

:)

Edited December 7, 2006 by skyrider

[T-Bone]

And your point is?

Come on T-Bone, wheres the beef?

If you say Wierwille wasn't born again, at least we have something to argue about. :)

Actually, I made my points already, the main ones being:

1. Many followers of VPW were [and still are] deceived by the smokescreen of hypocrisy and are ill-equipped in matters of moral judgment [posts 53, 55].

2. Jesus instructed believers on matters of discernment in Matthew 7 one of which is identifying false prophets and wolves in sheep's clothing by their fruit [posts 55, 58].

3. I would not put VPW in the same category as the writers of Scripture – in my opinion, his behavior calls for the appropriate label of sexual predator .

4. Many are so enamored with the persona of VPW that they are unwilling to see his true character .

…and one observation…

You have been arguing all through this thread and seem to have a hard time understanding what I say – as in your post 68 – you twist my criticizing VPW's character into a plug for Romans 10:9. And really all your posts have been a one-sided argument – I've been saying one thing and you go off in another direction – side-stepping the issues. So...I guess it's good we've had this review. :)

Edited December 7, 2006 by T-Bone

[Tom Strange]

And so did Dr. Wierwille, many, many times.

And your point is?

Come on T-Bone, wheres the beef?

If you say Wierwille wasn't born again, at least we have something to argue about. :)

I'll bite on that one Oldies... (you knew I would)...

I am closer to the opinion that HE WASN'T BORN AGAIN than I am that he was and simply erred... I'm thinking he was closer to being born of the wrong seed than the right one...

How's that? ...have at it!

[oldiesman]

Well now at least we have something to debate!

A man teaches for over 40 years that it's Christ in you, the hope of glory,

we are saved by God's grace, not works,

Jesus Christ is the Messiah, the son of God, the head of the body, the Master,

one baptism thru HIM, CHRIST

many folks get blessed and become part of the body of Christ, if not so already

The fullness of the head God dwells in Christ, which dwells in you,

teaching over and over you are righteous now,

we are seated in the heavenlies,

we are completely completely absolutely complete in Him

on and on and on,

and this man who taught all this for over 40 years didn't believe it himself,

and this man is not born again.... or even worse, born of the seed of the serpent?

will burn like a crisp in hell.

PREPOSTEROUS!

please send me what your smoking I want some.