*A prophet is not without honor* ...ie your family will drag you off the word with their lack of spirituality...
*your area isn`t spiritual enough*..ie move away from any and all ties that might provide you with support and balance so that you become entirely dependant on twi as your source for companionship, information, and moral support.
*worldly or carnal knowledge is not only unneccessary* ie.... it will be at odds with your spiritual knowledge...ie don`t go to college, cause then your resources, efforts and allegiance will go to someone OTHER than twi.
*shake the dust off of your feet*...ie if somebody. anybody whether they be life long friend, parent, child, spouse even....who does not accept the word as taught per twi, one must drop kick them out of your life, as they are a worthless distraction.
*suggestion from leadership is tantamount to a command*
1Sa 15:23 For rebellion [is as] the sin of witchcraft, and stubbornness [is as] iniquity and idolatry. - GAWD, the times I heard this one when I disagreed with something....anything.... This was taught over and over again in my local area any way.
Pro 21:19 [it is] better to dwell in the wilderness, than with a contentious and an angry woman. - Yep, that was thrown in the face of all the women at several of the "women's advances" I was ...cough, cough.... "blessed" to attend.
Things I DON'T remember being taught:
- The good Samaritan - certainly not any teachings that we should be like that good Samaritan.
- Jam 2:16 And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be [ye] warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what [doth it] profit? - we were taught that people needed da verd - not "things".
- Mar 12:33 And to love him with all the heart, and with all the understanding, and with all the soul, and with all the strength, and to love [his] neighbour as himself, is more than all whole burnt offerings and sacrifices. - and who did TWI teach was our neighbor? OTHER TWIts!! That's it! Not anyone else was worthy.
- Ecc 9:7 Go thy way, eat thy bread with joy, and drink thy wine with a merry heart; for God now accepteth thy works. - Too many TWIt rules for this to be possible even if they did teach it (which they didn't)
- Ecc 12:12 And further, by these, my son, be admonished: of making many books [there is] no end; and much study [is] a weariness of the flesh. - This doesn't fit with TWIt doctrine and practice. It seems as though even Jesus narrowed the whole lot down to this one verse.... Ecc 12:13 Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this [is] the whole [duty] of man. Period - end of story - why go to the trouble of straining so many gnats?
The granddaddy of all selective teachings,in my opinion, was the session on how Eve was deceived by the serpent. Not just the content and privately drawn conclusions of the lesson but its' very placement in the class at a point so strategically vital to maintaining the interest of the students. It could have easily been incorporated into session 12 from an academic standpoint but that would have defeated the selective intent of the lesson.
The granddaddy of all selective teachings,in my opinion, was the session on how Eve was deceived by the serpent. Not just the content and privately drawn conclusions of the lesson but its' very placement in the class at a point so strategically vital to maintaining the interest of the students. It could have easily been incorporated into session 12 from an academic standpoint but that would have defeated the selective intent of the lesson.
That's just my opinion.
Yeah......the strategic placement of this teaching. Seems like ole 51-year-old wierwille knew just where to bait the hook, eh?
Or.........how about the "big sins/ little sins are all the same in God's eyes" teaching? Can't remember any scripture to back up this piffle teaching? Was this justification for doing whatever because everyone sins.??
Look synthesized down to its bare essentials what TWI taught was the following
The more you "Joe believer" give up, do without, and blindly obey the more we leadership gain, have and are free to do as we will. Less is ALWAYS better for YOU and MORE is always better for US.
Where are the teachings on........1) Life-Fulfilling Service to God, 2) Purchasing the Right Home to Honor God, 3) Financial Investments and Freedom, 4) Raising Your Family and Bonding Together, 5) Keeping Priorities Straight -- The Twi-Corporation is Not First, 6) Adultery is a Sin, 7) Keep the Home Fires Burning in your marriage relationship, 8) etc.
Answer : I've generally found that the clue is in the title as to what it is for. The Way Biblical Research, Teaching, and Fellowship Ministry. Now some may disagree that they accomplished the purpose, But I don't see The Way Biblical Research, Home buying training, and Fellowship Ministry. Nor do I see The Way Biblical Research, Financial planning school, and Fellowship Ministry. This is just another attempt to blame someone else for something unrelated to the field they were offering teaching in. If you wanted to learn that and did not go to the appropriate place now who's fault is that? That said on occasion sometimes people with knowledge in certain fields kindly shared it at times with others. I learned a few things about auto repair from the fleet crew at Emporia. I learned some floral tips that I did not know when I worked on the stage flowers with another florist for the Heartbeat Weekend in our Region. But I never assumed that they had some responsibility to teach me those things. There are other places to learn these things.
Two of these things were not what The Way was designed to offer, as I said someone may have covered these subjects but it was not the purpose for the group. I don't remember any on them because it was not the primary purpose of the Way to teach these type of things, apparently Skyrider does not remember any either otherwise he would not have asked where they were? They were absent because most normal people would go to where they did offer this type of teaching if one was looking for such. If you want teaching on financial planning you would go to someone that does this type of thing which was not The Way's goal if you read their bio sheet. The question asked was where are these teachings? my reply was they are not there because they never were intended to be a focus of The Way. As to the others I believe that there were teachings on those subject matters. I could dig up transcripts, probably audio even but what is the point? we would be off on another Well what about this then rant . It's easy to accuse and then change the subject when someone documents the answer. It is lots of work to do for someone that never really wanted the answer anyway.
"Where are the teachings on...............1) Life-Fulfilling Service to God, 2) Purchasing the Right Home to Honor God, 3) ......"
WD......you might want to re-read my first post.
The FIRST question is.....
"Sure, we heard hundreds of teachings on 'believing'........because it pushed wierwille's 'law of believing dogma' to the forefront (aka: the pfal class), but what about goodness, gentleness, compassion, care-giving, community involvement, parenting priorities, etc.???"
I read it as I said there are doccumentable teachings on those subjects. I responded to the second question What is not doccumentable is the illogical subjects you expected them to teach you. Hell they never taught how to build a airplane either but then I would not have expected them to nor years later would I rant about why did they not. It's pretty clear...
Skyrider-you are right. To add nauseum, when you really think back, never did hear much on the love of God, especially in the gospels. It's like they forgot about the gospels. Everything was based on the 7 epistles, believe, believe. Isn't love the foundation of believing? They just wanted more numbers.
I read it as I said there are doccumentable teachings on those subjects. I responded to the second question What is not doccumentable is the illogical subjects you expected them to teach you. Hell they never taught how to build a airplane either but then I would not have expected them to nor years later would I rant about why did they not. It's pretty clear...
Well............maybe vpw "taught" some aspects on harmony in the home but I would have EXPECTED for vpw, an ordained minister, to refrain from rampant adultery and sexual predatory lusts.
Isn't TRUE teaching............doctrine AND practice..??
Isn't a LIVING EPISTLE.......known and read of all men..??
Skyrider-you are right. To add nauseum, when you really think back, never did hear much on the love of God, especially in the gospels. It's like they forgot about the gospels. Everything was based on the 7 epistles, believe, believe. Isn't love the foundation of believing? They just wanted more numbers.
polar bear,
Yeah.....when we think back to even those inresidence corps days, the first three months were pfal reviews and norman vincent peale jargon. Just hammering in the pfal-programming.
Always, stuff on Paul's commitment, douloses for the lord, bond-slaves, dog soldiers, athletes of the spirit, go-go, run-run, serve-serve.
And, years later........to find out that wierwille was jumping the corps girls in his motorcoach and passing others off to howard. What a spiritual stench..!!!
In all honesty............I think that I've discarded about 85% of that corps training junk. It was jaded with zealous competition and twi-service overload. Of course, foundational scriptures like John 3:16......those are hard to twist and manipulate, even by twi.
Even as lightbearers..........where was THE LOVE..?? Man, those times of being sent out to "get a class together" were filled with confrontation and threats of dismissal.
Dove--------I was going to put up one of those off topic smilies but decided it might dilute the seriousness of this subject.The point being stressed is that VPW and others in authoritative positions selectively taught portions of scripture that bolstered their own personal stances and agendas and selectively ignored portions that might cast an unfavorable light on their own behaviour.
As to the matter of receiving instruction regarding secular matters; Are you not aware that in the more recent days of TWI no one was to go anywhere unless they were accompanied? Did you perhaps miss the post by someone who had to have special dispensation just to take a cake deorating class? Did you miss the post by the person who had to take a "believer" to prom rather than his girlfriend? Doing "your own thing" was definately not a good recipe for remaining in good stead with leadership.
Like you, my most vivid memories are of the early days and I did not endure much of the legalism that came in later times but I did see plenty of examples of people using The Word to fulfill their own purposes even in those early days.
In summary,"selective teaching" is wrongly dividing The Word in a larger, more contextual sense to serve ones' own purpose.
No public teachings by vpw on adultery.....in all his 40 years ??? H E L L O
you're right....just realized that fact...incredible!
and regarding the hallowed 7 epistles....i reread recently and noticed that most end with Paul talking about the money....read the endings again in that light....seems like a blueprint for future "ministers".
the whole book seems to have a pro male "selective teaching" slant that i can't agree with.
a very controlling "God" and a rather wimpy, weird (flowerchild kinda way) but still angry enough, son.
i wish i were taught about a Mother God that REALLY gave birth to a hotty saviour daughter, but i digress!
quote: This is just another attempt to blame someone else for something unrelated to the field they were offering teaching in. If you wanted to learn that and did not go to the appropriate place now who's fault is that?
Right on!
Those of you who wish to continue blaming others for decisions you yourself made, enjoy this forum; enjoy your misplaced rage, but the price you pay is that you will be second guessing every big decision you make for the rest of your lives. No thanks. Sounds like bondage to me.
Well............maybe vpw "taught" some aspects on harmony in the home but I would have EXPECTED for vpw, an ordained minister, to refrain from rampant adultery and sexual predatory lusts.
you know, the bible is the final word on all of life and godliness. that was the open door they had to get into ever crevass of our lives. finances were taught. if I remember right, they were also part of wow training. owe no man anything was the commandment that enabled twi leaders to feel they could snoop into every aspect of our lives.
try working for a legalistic FC-owned business and not having the details in your life criticised... the car you drive, your apartment, etc. they know how much you make, and how much you should give back to the ministry that's given you so much *sniff* (single tear rolls down cheek).
I think the FC's were directed to teach controlling your finances/ABS at one point, because it was taught ad nauseum until one felt guilty for wanting to keep a dollar for an ice cream cone because it wasn't an effing "need".
I would agree that he was a human and that as such he was not perfect like the rest of us he had his mistakes in his life, he had error in his thinking at times and he did not always do what he taught was the correct thing to do. I can say the same for me, did he fail miserably I don't know it is not my place to say I don't have all the facts to make such a judgment, nor do I care to. I'm quite content to let God sort that out , I have my own life to worry about, I don't always do what I know to do either though I try. I don't consider myself to have failed miserably. I suppose the best answer I could offer is that at times he failed miserably at certain things other times he did not. He did not fail to teach me and some others I know some things from the scriptures, so I would say based on that alone his life was not a miserable failure.
Skyrider-you are right. To add nauseum, when you really think back, never did hear much on the love of God, especially in the gospels. It's like they forgot about the gospels. Everything was based on the 7 epistles, believe, believe. Isn't love the foundation of believing? They just wanted more numbers.
Polar Bear,
I still have some excellent tapes of Dr. Wierwille teaching about love of God from the gospels "from those good old days of TWI".
A person can stand in the pulpit and declare the moon is made of green cheese, it simply does not make it true.
Teaching is not limited to what is expounded from the pulpit or recorded on some sound stage. A person must teach by example also or their ramblings are just that: ramblings. I would humbly suggest that one look beyond the flowery words on a recorded tape and ask themself honestly whether the expounder adhered to his or her profession of what they presented as Truth. Jesus never recorded any tapes or spoke at any SNS(Sunday night service) but he certainly lived one amazingly exemplary life. Actions speak louder than words.
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rascal
more and more come to mind...
*A prophet is not without honor* ...ie your family will drag you off the word with their lack of spirituality...
*your area isn`t spiritual enough*..ie move away from any and all ties that might provide you with support and balance so that you become entirely dependant on twi as your source for companionship, information, and moral support.
*worldly or carnal knowledge is not only unneccessary* ie.... it will be at odds with your spiritual knowledge...ie don`t go to college, cause then your resources, efforts and allegiance will go to someone OTHER than twi.
*shake the dust off of your feet*...ie if somebody. anybody whether they be life long friend, parent, child, spouse even....who does not accept the word as taught per twi, one must drop kick them out of your life, as they are a worthless distraction.
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Belle
*owe no man anything* - nuff said.
*suggestion from leadership is tantamount to a command*
1Sa 15:23 For rebellion [is as] the sin of witchcraft, and stubbornness [is as] iniquity and idolatry. - GAWD, the times I heard this one when I disagreed with something....anything.... This was taught over and over again in my local area any way.
Pro 21:19 [it is] better to dwell in the wilderness, than with a contentious and an angry woman. - Yep, that was thrown in the face of all the women at several of the "women's advances" I was ...cough, cough.... "blessed" to attend.
Things I DON'T remember being taught:
- The good Samaritan - certainly not any teachings that we should be like that good Samaritan.
- Jam 2:16 And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be [ye] warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what [doth it] profit? - we were taught that people needed da verd - not "things".
- Mar 12:33 And to love him with all the heart, and with all the understanding, and with all the soul, and with all the strength, and to love [his] neighbour as himself, is more than all whole burnt offerings and sacrifices. - and who did TWI teach was our neighbor? OTHER TWIts!! That's it! Not anyone else was worthy.
- Ecc 9:7 Go thy way, eat thy bread with joy, and drink thy wine with a merry heart; for God now accepteth thy works. - Too many TWIt rules for this to be possible even if they did teach it (which they didn't)
- Ecc 12:12 And further, by these, my son, be admonished: of making many books [there is] no end; and much study [is] a weariness of the flesh. - This doesn't fit with TWIt doctrine and practice. It seems as though even Jesus narrowed the whole lot down to this one verse.... Ecc 12:13 Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this [is] the whole [duty] of man. Period - end of story - why go to the trouble of straining so many gnats?
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rascal
OOOH Yeah, Belle, you bring to mind one of my favorites.
*Wives submit to/obey your husbands*
You are to have no thoughts contrary, raise no objection, no matter how difficult, demeaning their requirements, no matter how outragious the actions.
Whether their rediculous treatment of those under their rule, be due to alcohol abuse, mental instability, or just plain stupidity.
The wife and children have no access to God accept through the husband/father/head of the household.
To not submit, would be to leave the protection of God.
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Belle
More lessons never taught by TWI:
Pro 5:18 Let thy fountain be blessed: and rejoice with the wife of thy youth.
Pro 5:19 [Let her be as] the loving hind and pleasant roe; let her breasts satisfy thee at all times; and be thou ravished always with her love.
Pro 5:20 And why wilt thou, my son, be ravished with a strange woman, and embrace the bosom of a stranger?
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waysider
The granddaddy of all selective teachings,in my opinion, was the session on how Eve was deceived by the serpent. Not just the content and privately drawn conclusions of the lesson but its' very placement in the class at a point so strategically vital to maintaining the interest of the students. It could have easily been incorporated into session 12 from an academic standpoint but that would have defeated the selective intent of the lesson.
That's just my opinion.
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What The Hey
:unsure:You SAW the boogy man in the closet? . . . I dunno . . . it sure is awfully dark and scary in there. :unsure:
I DO believe in Spooks. Oh I do.
In fact I do - I do - I do - I do - I dooooooooooooooo believe in Spooks . . .
You're gonna believe in a lot more than that after we're finished with you!!!
:jump: 
:jump: 
:jump: 
:jump: <- Flying Monkeys!
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rascal
eh? :blink:
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skyrider
Yeah......the strategic placement of this teaching. Seems like ole 51-year-old wierwille knew just where to bait the hook, eh?
Or.........how about the "big sins/ little sins are all the same in God's eyes" teaching? Can't remember any scripture to back up this piffle teaching? Was this justification for doing whatever because everyone sins.??
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templelady
Look synthesized down to its bare essentials what TWI taught was the following
The more you "Joe believer" give up, do without, and blindly obey the more we leadership gain, have and are free to do as we will. Less is ALWAYS better for YOU and MORE is always better for US.
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WhiteDove
Waysider here was the question
page 1 first post
Two of these things were not what The Way was designed to offer, as I said someone may have covered these subjects but it was not the purpose for the group. I don't remember any on them because it was not the primary purpose of the Way to teach these type of things, apparently Skyrider does not remember any either otherwise he would not have asked where they were? They were absent because most normal people would go to where they did offer this type of teaching if one was looking for such. If you want teaching on financial planning you would go to someone that does this type of thing which was not The Way's goal if you read their bio sheet. The question asked was where are these teachings? my reply was they are not there because they never were intended to be a focus of The Way. As to the others I believe that there were teachings on those subject matters. I could dig up transcripts, probably audio even but what is the point? we would be off on another Well what about this then rant . It's easy to accuse and then change the subject when someone documents the answer. It is lots of work to do for someone that never really wanted the answer anyway.
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skyrider
WD......you might want to re-read my first post.
The FIRST question is.....
"Sure, we heard hundreds of teachings on 'believing'........because it pushed wierwille's 'law of believing dogma' to the forefront (aka: the pfal class), but what about goodness, gentleness, compassion, care-giving, community involvement, parenting priorities, etc.???"
Was The Way not designed to cover THESE subjects?
:)
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WhiteDove
I read it as I said there are doccumentable teachings on those subjects. I responded to the second question What is not doccumentable is the illogical subjects you expected them to teach you. Hell they never taught how to build a airplane either but then I would not have expected them to nor years later would I rant about why did they not. It's pretty clear...
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polar bear
Skyrider-you are right. To add nauseum, when you really think back, never did hear much on the love of God, especially in the gospels. It's like they forgot about the gospels. Everything was based on the 7 epistles, believe, believe. Isn't love the foundation of believing? They just wanted more numbers.
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skyrider
Well............maybe vpw "taught" some aspects on harmony in the home but I would have EXPECTED for vpw, an ordained minister, to refrain from rampant adultery and sexual predatory lusts.
Isn't TRUE teaching............doctrine AND practice..??
Isn't a LIVING EPISTLE.......known and read of all men..??
I think so.
It's pretty clear...
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skyrider
polar bear,
Yeah.....when we think back to even those inresidence corps days, the first three months were pfal reviews and norman vincent peale jargon. Just hammering in the pfal-programming.
Always, stuff on Paul's commitment, douloses for the lord, bond-slaves, dog soldiers, athletes of the spirit, go-go, run-run, serve-serve.
And, years later........to find out that wierwille was jumping the corps girls in his motorcoach and passing others off to howard. What a spiritual stench..!!!
In all honesty............I think that I've discarded about 85% of that corps training junk. It was jaded with zealous competition and twi-service overload. Of course, foundational scriptures like John 3:16......those are hard to twist and manipulate, even by twi.
Even as lightbearers..........where was THE LOVE..?? Man, those times of being sent out to "get a class together" were filled with confrontation and threats of dismissal.
Sheeeeesh.
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waysider
Dove--------I was going to put up one of those off topic smilies but decided it might dilute the seriousness of this subject.The point being stressed is that VPW and others in authoritative positions selectively taught portions of scripture that bolstered their own personal stances and agendas and selectively ignored portions that might cast an unfavorable light on their own behaviour.
As to the matter of receiving instruction regarding secular matters; Are you not aware that in the more recent days of TWI no one was to go anywhere unless they were accompanied? Did you perhaps miss the post by someone who had to have special dispensation just to take a cake deorating class? Did you miss the post by the person who had to take a "believer" to prom rather than his girlfriend? Doing "your own thing" was definately not a good recipe for remaining in good stead with leadership.
Like you, my most vivid memories are of the early days and I did not endure much of the legalism that came in later times but I did see plenty of examples of people using The Word to fulfill their own purposes even in those early days.
In summary,"selective teaching" is wrongly dividing The Word in a larger, more contextual sense to serve ones' own purpose.
BTW--The airplane analogy----------
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frickafrack
you're right....just realized that fact...incredible!
and regarding the hallowed 7 epistles....i reread recently and noticed that most end with Paul talking about the money....read the endings again in that light....seems like a blueprint for future "ministers".
the whole book seems to have a pro male "selective teaching" slant that i can't agree with.
a very controlling "God" and a rather wimpy, weird (flowerchild kinda way) but still angry enough, son.
i wish i were taught about a Mother God that REALLY gave birth to a hotty saviour daughter, but i digress!
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johniam
quote: This is just another attempt to blame someone else for something unrelated to the field they were offering teaching in. If you wanted to learn that and did not go to the appropriate place now who's fault is that?
Right on!
Those of you who wish to continue blaming others for decisions you yourself made, enjoy this forum; enjoy your misplaced rage, but the price you pay is that you will be second guessing every big decision you make for the rest of your lives. No thanks. Sounds like bondage to me.
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WhiteDove
I have no disagreement with that
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potato
you know, the bible is the final word on all of life and godliness. that was the open door they had to get into ever crevass of our lives. finances were taught. if I remember right, they were also part of wow training. owe no man anything was the commandment that enabled twi leaders to feel they could snoop into every aspect of our lives.
try working for a legalistic FC-owned business and not having the details in your life criticised... the car you drive, your apartment, etc. they know how much you make, and how much you should give back to the ministry that's given you so much *sniff* (single tear rolls down cheek).
I think the FC's were directed to teach controlling your finances/ABS at one point, because it was taught ad nauseum until one felt guilty for wanting to keep a dollar for an ice cream cone because it wasn't an effing "need".
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skyrider
WD........and "taught" is in parenthesis, because it's a pseudo-type of taught.
Like Ephesians........three chapters, DOCTRINE / three chapters, PRACTICAL APPLICATION.........true teaching is balanced with living God's Word.
Anyone can hold the Bible......and talk scripture. The devil did, too.
A true minister is measured in I Timothy 3..........and wierwille failed miserably.
Wouldn't you agree?
:)
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WhiteDove
I would agree that he was a human and that as such he was not perfect like the rest of us he had his mistakes in his life, he had error in his thinking at times and he did not always do what he taught was the correct thing to do. I can say the same for me, did he fail miserably I don't know it is not my place to say I don't have all the facts to make such a judgment, nor do I care to. I'm quite content to let God sort that out , I have my own life to worry about, I don't always do what I know to do either though I try. I don't consider myself to have failed miserably. I suppose the best answer I could offer is that at times he failed miserably at certain things other times he did not. He did not fail to teach me and some others I know some things from the scriptures, so I would say based on that alone his life was not a miserable failure.
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oldiesman
Polar Bear,
I still have some excellent tapes of Dr. Wierwille teaching about love of God from the gospels "from those good old days of TWI".
I want to convert these to my Ipod.
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waysider
A person can stand in the pulpit and declare the moon is made of green cheese, it simply does not make it true.
Teaching is not limited to what is expounded from the pulpit or recorded on some sound stage. A person must teach by example also or their ramblings are just that: ramblings. I would humbly suggest that one look beyond the flowery words on a recorded tape and ask themself honestly whether the expounder adhered to his or her profession of what they presented as Truth. Jesus never recorded any tapes or spoke at any SNS(Sunday night service) but he certainly lived one amazingly exemplary life. Actions speak louder than words.
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