A well cannot give forth both sweet water and bitter.
An apple tree will give forth apples and a twi tree gives forth spiritual, emotional, and physical hurt. Those who may not have had direct physical hurt were certainly hurt by the spiritual deception of the place.
Even one person who died not knowing the God he longed to know in his youth in twi, in my opinion, is enough for a verdict of guilty to that place, and there are / have been a lot more than one.
Kindness, like stupid, is as kindness does. And that place was not kind. Not kind.
Some people who knew Holy Spirit were used as a front for those who made merchandise of the souls of the inmates of twi.
I am just sorry that vpw died before he was exposed, but I am sure there will be a righteous judgment for all, both for those who yearned for the Lord and never knew how to find Him and for those such as vpw who made merchandise of the simple-hearted ones.
And thanks, again and again, Pawtucket, for giving us a place to articulate these things. You are a dream come true.
Wasn't it reported by someone here that upon VPWs' demise, Mrs. W. was heard to say"he was a mean man."? I suppose if anyone would have known, it surely would have been Mrs. W.
Rascal I said "If you do not know who the inner-circle was then how would you guys know who was and was not genuinely kind?"
Not directing at you, but rather to any defenders of that there was good in TWI etc. My contention is that even the KINDNESS from the LEADERSHIP was contrived.
I do not think it needs to be picked through on a case by case basis.
I am saying as a collective bunch of a "secret society of sin" -- the water was posioned and all water coming from the well was posioned.
Or as Kit said, bitter and sweet water do not come from the same well-- there are no cases by case studies needed.
You got a bad tree - you got bad or no fruit. It does not produce great apples.
You rock! Thanks for your insight. I agree -- very saddening and also very embarrassing to think of the time wasted -- youthful years that could have been much better spent
I love to see threads like this one...getting brutally honest about what these people actually were.
...Get it out...say it like it was.
It's a catharsis to spill your guts, a source of information for others (to believe or not believe)...and a warning for those still involved.
I saw enough in my 13 years of involvement to know that what Dot is saying is absolutely true.
The stories that I've heard from ex twi women, who, with tears running down their faces, told me the horror stories of sexual abuse...drugs, alcohol, unwanted sexual advances...all from people who were at the "top".
Don't beat yourself too much over it. Even the Beatles dabbled in the cult of Maharishi (no relation) in their day. Bob Dylan went through his born-again phase before catching onto the greed and corruption of whatever group he was involved with at the time. Cripes! Consider how cultic our country has been for the past 6 years under the Bush Administration.
Here are a few things I found on the net. Yeah, brutal honesty ruffles people-- but here is some more of it -- I do not give a sh!t.
Those of us who know - know.
No sugar coatings. Just crap!
Anyway, here look at this -- sweet group they were, huh?
According to Karl Kahler, stockpiling supplies and weapons training were indeed a part of Way training.
"....In the mid-1970s [Wierwille] he predicted that a communist takeover of America was imminent, and he had all the believers stockpile bags of dried foods and other essentials in preparation for "going underground." When the invasion didn’t happen, he claimed the prayer and believing of The Way had saved the nation from apocalypse. Still, just to be safe, he initiated weapons training for all the Way Corps, and stockpiled assault weapons in secret armories around the country..." 21
"....Around 1972 The Way built an unremarkable two-story structure near the Wierwille barn known as the Executive Office Building, or EOB.... Underneath the EOB, said Duncan, is a bomb-proof bunker built to house the gold and silver, plus "all kinds of survival equipment, armaments you wouldn’t believe, Uzis, various kinds of shotguns, long-range rifles, grenade launchers, plastic explosives, a lot of explosives." He said some $23,000 worth of weapons were stored there. " 22
"...The stockpiling of survival kits was to continue, preferably with a year’s supply of non-perishable food, with ropes and mountain-climbing gear, with weapons and ammunition. ...Starting in either 1976 or 1977, every member of the Corps at Emporia was taken to the local National Guard armory and given a class in marksmanship and weapons safety...A Kansas National Guard official told reporters: "It was much like the military. They used .22-caliber rifles, and bulls-eye targets at 50 feet ...Rev. Allen Denton, told U.S. News & World Report, "What I saw was not a hunters’ safety program, (for which) you don’t need to know how to hit a bullseye from three different positions — prone, sitting and standing."18..." 23
"...the ministry finally told reporters around 1979 that it was discontinuing its "hunter safety course"...Stories circulated that secret weapons training continued, but they were never confirmed. A few stories circulated that The Way had stockpiles of weapons, but they were never confirmed either...." 24
Karl later relates the eyewitness testimony of Tony Martin, who was called in to instruct the weapons and military training. He related information about training about kill zones, triangulation and target practice with "guns [that] had been converted to fully automatic and silenced. They fired at human silhouettes from four positions: standing, kneeling, prone and from the hip..." 25
From the Excultworld website, in an online interview Denver police officer, Mark Roggeman stated,
"...Wierwille had claimed he attended several colleges where he received his Biblical and Greek education. I showed her letters, which I still have from the places that he claimed he went to school. Two separate letters stated that he was never there. Moody Bible Institute is one for instance."
"....The other thing I did was go up several times during the years to Camp Gunnison which was connected with The Way International, I spent time with the police there we took a drive down the river by the camp. A friend of mine who was at one time a Denver Police Officer was elected Sheriff of Gunnison County. He called me some years back to inform me that the local gun dealer had told them that they had purchased five hundred AR15 semi-automatic versions of the AR16. ...Why would a Bible based group want weapons?..." 26
John Lynn became part of the Way in the late 60's and was also a Limb Coordinator for Washington DC in 1987 and wrote almost as many Way books as Victor Wierwille. Mr. Lynn wrote that,
"Dr. Wierwille told people that without broadening their sexual activities beyond marriage, they'd "never be able to handle the things of God." A friend of mine told me Dr. Wierwille told her he thought that "a woman gets eternal rewards for blessing a man of God like this." 17
Wierwille also taught as a 'core belief' that, "Sex between married lay people and married Way Corps clergy can be a "one-time healing," rather than sinful adultery or the abuse of a care-taking relationship." 18
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Kit Sober
agreeing with Dot and the rest. . .
A well cannot give forth both sweet water and bitter.
An apple tree will give forth apples and a twi tree gives forth spiritual, emotional, and physical hurt. Those who may not have had direct physical hurt were certainly hurt by the spiritual deception of the place.
Even one person who died not knowing the God he longed to know in his youth in twi, in my opinion, is enough for a verdict of guilty to that place, and there are / have been a lot more than one.
Kindness, like stupid, is as kindness does. And that place was not kind. Not kind.
Some people who knew Holy Spirit were used as a front for those who made merchandise of the souls of the inmates of twi.
I am just sorry that vpw died before he was exposed, but I am sure there will be a righteous judgment for all, both for those who yearned for the Lord and never knew how to find Him and for those such as vpw who made merchandise of the simple-hearted ones.
And thanks, again and again, Pawtucket, for giving us a place to articulate these things. You are a dream come true.
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waysider
Wasn't it reported by someone here that upon VPWs' demise, Mrs. W. was heard to say"he was a mean man."? I suppose if anyone would have known, it surely would have been Mrs. W.
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Dot Matrix
Waysider
I heard that but do not recall where -- maybe here
Rascal - boy that was an additonal lighbulb you presented!
YEah Kit, the well cannot produce both sweet and bitter water. So that which LOOKED sweet was part of the con in my opinion.
For some people it is just too hard to admit we were in a cult.
I see it here and have felt it myself, I try to rationalize that we weren't in a "cult" like other cults. Ours was okay in someways.
But we were in a cult and even the "nice things" were presented as the bait and switch we got later on.
We WERE in a cult.
How awakening, humbling and embarrassing.
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Dot Matrix
Rascal I said "If you do not know who the inner-circle was then how would you guys know who was and was not genuinely kind?"
Not directing at you, but rather to any defenders of that there was good in TWI etc. My contention is that even the KINDNESS from the LEADERSHIP was contrived.
I do not think it needs to be picked through on a case by case basis.
I am saying as a collective bunch of a "secret society of sin" -- the water was posioned and all water coming from the well was posioned.
Or as Kit said, bitter and sweet water do not come from the same well-- there are no cases by case studies needed.
You got a bad tree - you got bad or no fruit. It does not produce great apples.
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rascal
Dot, I understand. Thank you for providing this information.
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Dot Matrix
:)
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morey
Dot
You rock! Thanks for your insight. I agree -- very saddening and also very embarrassing to think of the time wasted -- youthful years that could have been much better spent
morey
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GrouchoMarxJr
I love to see threads like this one...getting brutally honest about what these people actually were.
...Get it out...say it like it was.
It's a catharsis to spill your guts, a source of information for others (to believe or not believe)...and a warning for those still involved.
I saw enough in my 13 years of involvement to know that what Dot is saying is absolutely true.
The stories that I've heard from ex twi women, who, with tears running down their faces, told me the horror stories of sexual abuse...drugs, alcohol, unwanted sexual advances...all from people who were at the "top".
If I had a flame thrower, I'd pay them a visit.
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TheInvisibleDan
Don't beat yourself too much over it. Even the Beatles dabbled in the cult of Maharishi (no relation) in their day. Bob Dylan went through his born-again phase before catching onto the greed and corruption of whatever group he was involved with at the time. Cripes! Consider how cultic our country has been for the past 6 years under the Bush Administration.
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Dot Matrix
Morey
You rock too!
Groucho-
Here are a few things I found on the net. Yeah, brutal honesty ruffles people-- but here is some more of it -- I do not give a sh!t.
Those of us who know - know.
No sugar coatings. Just crap!
Anyway, here look at this -- sweet group they were, huh?
According to Karl Kahler, stockpiling supplies and weapons training were indeed a part of Way training.
"....In the mid-1970s [Wierwille] he predicted that a communist takeover of America was imminent, and he had all the believers stockpile bags of dried foods and other essentials in preparation for "going underground." When the invasion didn’t happen, he claimed the prayer and believing of The Way had saved the nation from apocalypse. Still, just to be safe, he initiated weapons training for all the Way Corps, and stockpiled assault weapons in secret armories around the country..." 21
"....Around 1972 The Way built an unremarkable two-story structure near the Wierwille barn known as the Executive Office Building, or EOB.... Underneath the EOB, said Duncan, is a bomb-proof bunker built to house the gold and silver, plus "all kinds of survival equipment, armaments you wouldn’t believe, Uzis, various kinds of shotguns, long-range rifles, grenade launchers, plastic explosives, a lot of explosives." He said some $23,000 worth of weapons were stored there. " 22
"...The stockpiling of survival kits was to continue, preferably with a year’s supply of non-perishable food, with ropes and mountain-climbing gear, with weapons and ammunition. ...Starting in either 1976 or 1977, every member of the Corps at Emporia was taken to the local National Guard armory and given a class in marksmanship and weapons safety...A Kansas National Guard official told reporters: "It was much like the military. They used .22-caliber rifles, and bulls-eye targets at 50 feet ...Rev. Allen Denton, told U.S. News & World Report, "What I saw was not a hunters’ safety program, (for which) you don’t need to know how to hit a bullseye from three different positions — prone, sitting and standing."18..." 23
"...the ministry finally told reporters around 1979 that it was discontinuing its "hunter safety course"...Stories circulated that secret weapons training continued, but they were never confirmed. A few stories circulated that The Way had stockpiles of weapons, but they were never confirmed either...." 24
Karl later relates the eyewitness testimony of Tony Martin, who was called in to instruct the weapons and military training. He related information about training about kill zones, triangulation and target practice with "guns [that] had been converted to fully automatic and silenced. They fired at human silhouettes from four positions: standing, kneeling, prone and from the hip..." 25
From the Excultworld website, in an online interview Denver police officer, Mark Roggeman stated,
"...Wierwille had claimed he attended several colleges where he received his Biblical and Greek education. I showed her letters, which I still have from the places that he claimed he went to school. Two separate letters stated that he was never there. Moody Bible Institute is one for instance."
"....The other thing I did was go up several times during the years to Camp Gunnison which was connected with The Way International, I spent time with the police there we took a drive down the river by the camp. A friend of mine who was at one time a Denver Police Officer was elected Sheriff of Gunnison County. He called me some years back to inform me that the local gun dealer had told them that they had purchased five hundred AR15 semi-automatic versions of the AR16. ...Why would a Bible based group want weapons?..." 26
John Lynn became part of the Way in the late 60's and was also a Limb Coordinator for Washington DC in 1987 and wrote almost as many Way books as Victor Wierwille. Mr. Lynn wrote that,
"Dr. Wierwille told people that without broadening their sexual activities beyond marriage, they'd "never be able to handle the things of God." A friend of mine told me Dr. Wierwille told her he thought that "a woman gets eternal rewards for blessing a man of God like this." 17
Wierwille also taught as a 'core belief' that, "Sex between married lay people and married Way Corps clergy can be a "one-time healing," rather than sinful adultery or the abuse of a care-taking relationship." 18
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