"That being said, I observed him putting in COUNTLESS hours working, studying and serving us all as Founder & President of The Way International. He earned my respect in that regard. I could write LOOOOOONG posts of personally wonderful experiences w/him. "
I've read GS for 5 years and never seen a comment like that about VPW.
I find it interesting, how TWI demands from the rest of the world that which they do not fulfill- academic honesty. Look at the lawsuits.. the threats, the wrangling- over copyright infringement. Yet vic and others helped themselves to whatever their hearts desired, without the bat of an eye.
I guess they think it must be ok to steal if its for the right reason..
I set out piles of peanuts in the back yard for squirrels here (I used to put out walnuts when they were a lot less expensive).
If I have five piles out there, even widely separated, the same two squirrels will fight over each pile, one at a time.. what they don't know, or acknowledge- the nuts are MINE.
Reminds me of TWI and offshoots fighting over a bag of bones that didn't belong to any of them to begin with.
And I was taught that the "believers" were supposed to do BETTER than what the rest of the world was doing.
My english prof told us that we could write anything any way that we wanted.. but that documentation was to be adhered to as law.. no bending of rules, no exceptions. "I really don't wanna flunk you, but if you insist.."
Most of these guys have a very, very good memory. They WILL remember what they read and if you steal something, you are cooked.
In my school its grounds for expulsion.
But I don't know anyone that has been thrown out- 99.999% here live up to the standards.
Is it laborious?
Not really. The first time I wrote a paper, it took a LITTLE effort to figure out how to document internet sources.
But once you get the form right, its easy enough to look over your old work to see how to do it right. The rules do not change.
Even if you paraphrase, you STILL must document. And in the right way.
I think that if a person refuses to document, its pure laziness, or fraud.
No sin well look everyone we got a look a like Christ. Since we already found Jesus Christ that must make you the anti-christ. Trying to copy every single thing Christ did. Either that or you lied and actually sinned. See know if you did lie about sinning isn't that a sin. Yeah I know you will need a week to think about that. This is how I know you have sinned, the bible says so. For It Is Written: For EVERY man has sinned and come short of the glory of God. You must of missed that verse in the bible. Well it is a good thing I was able to catch up to you and tell you that you were wrong, of course you knew that already. The only person in history to NEVER commit a sin was Jesus Christ, for he was a perfect sacrifice. CK
It might help if you take off those PFAL-colored-glasses when you read someone's post. My how quick you are to jump on anything that attacks your little idol…Honestly now, CK – are you really thatdense or you're just trying to rile people up? Did I ever say that I never sinned? No – what I did was list the specific sins [and some fairly hefty ones I might add] that I never committed – here yah go let's review that again:
T-Bone
Yeah – you can count me in – batter up! I've never committed adultery, never raped anyone, never drugged and raped anyone, never sexually assaulted or molested anyone, never plagiarized, never showed porn videos as part of the Way Corps curriculum, never became an alcoholic - the only glasses he ever used to improve his in-depth spiritual perception and awareness were filled with Drambui…
You must have missed a verse like
Matthew 23:23
Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.
It's funny how some people so fixate on their own interpretation of the Bible that they get tunnel vision and miss the whole point of a passage. Like what you did with me. I listed the specific sins I've never committed and you somehow think I'm saying I never sinned and go quoting a verse about all men have sinned.
What's the weightier matter in our discussion now? Well, you can speak for yourself – so I'll tell you my side. I think the Bible is clear on all sin being bad. And I also think the Bible reveals a code of justice. The principle of proportionate punishment can be gathered by noting the more serious sin requires more severe punishment. From that I take it some sins are worse than others – I would think so in terms of how it can effect and shape a character, a destiny, etc.
And there's one more angle to why I specified those particular sins in my post. The Bible is very clear on the great spiritual/mental/physical/social damage that adultery and alcoholism can do to the one dominated by those specific sins [covered quite a bit in Proverbs]. Now let's take that person and elevate him to a position of authority. VPW portrayed himself as a minister of God.
Matthew 5:19
Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
Maybe that's why passages in Timothy, Peter and a few other places hold ministers to a higher standard for a code of conduct.
By the way, my comments and quotes were from ROW's post, not CK's. Just in case there was a misunderstanding. I do not argue with CK any longer, any more than I argue with my butt. When it does what it needs to do, I accommodate it, clean up, and go about my business without thinking much about it afterward.
people getting reamed for not breaking the mints for the MOG precisely in half, or quarters..
ha! i hadn't thought about that in years! it's a perfect example of twi religion. the Doctrine of the Breaking of the Mints has its origins in a comment vpw made: "i never finish more than half a mint," or something like that. what he meant was he'd never keep sucking on a mint until it was gone, but would spit it out after a while. so breaking the backroom mints in half became official twi practice, all based on an idiotic misunderstanding of what the manicotti (the big cheese) said.
Whatever happened to"You get more with a little honey,than with a lot of vinegar?"
When ole Vic wanted something"Find out what he likes and get him some"
Why did we put up with the yelling?
I remember I was late to a leaders meeting,I was asked why I was late? Why I replied? well I do not have an excuse.Man the whole rest of the meeting I got yelled at.Shoulda jumped and said"Go to Hell!!"
instead I took it .
Twi was only great if you were not in the center of not getting yelled at for some bs.
Love of God nope,Why can you not put together pfal or later wap.
It is NOT "teaching the same thing." It is taking what someone else wrote and pretending you wrote it.
Second try to answer a quote. Not doing well yet. I'll learn.
Thanks for the welcome.
I guess what I was trying to say is that I always knew that vpw got many of his ideas from others.
I never felt deceived in this area because I remember him giving credit to many people for the things that he (vpw) was teaching. For that reason I never looked at his writings as plagiarism. Maybe I’m wrong here, but doesn’t there have to be some intent to be plagiarism? Also, I’m somewhat ignorant here too; do you think the early books were intentionally plagiarized?
My problems started when the teachings changed and as I was just reading on gsc, when people started being mistreated.
I was trying to draw a distinction between what you say he did, which was not plagiarism, and what he actually did, which was plagiarism.
Here's a real easy example: In JE Stiles' book on the Holy Spirit (I forget the name of the book), Stiles has a chapter of common questions and answers. One of the questions is whether people can receive "false" tongues, or something like that.
Compare the same section of Receiving the Holy Spirit today, and you'll find that the question and answer are lifted almost word for word! That's dishonest. There's nothing in RTHST that talks about Stiles or credits him for his contribution to the book. It was a wholesale theft.
Stiles: 8. Is it not possible for a Christian to receive false tongues or a false spirit when seeking to receive the Holy Spirit?
Wierwille: 8. Is it possible for a Christian to receive false tongues or a false spirit when believing for the holy spirit?
Stiles: Answer: When people ask that question, we know that they; have somewhere come in contact with one of the "faith blasters" who go about making statements which have no foundation in Scripture. When we suggest to earnest Christians that they may get something false, when seeking more of the fulness of God, we sinfully dishonor God and His Holy Spirit. Where, we ask, is there the slightest suggestion in the Bible that the Christian, whose heart longs for more of God, may get false tongues or a false spirit? If such a thing could happen, it would have to be true that, either God was too careless and indifferent about the welfare of His children, or else he was too weak to protect them from the power of the enemy.
Wierwille: When I am asked that question, I know that person has come into contact with those whom i term "faith blasters," who go about making statements which have no foundation in Scripture. When someone suggests to earnest Christians that they are in danger of receiving something false when believing to manifest the fulness of God according to God's Word, he sinfully dishonors God. Where is there a chapter or verse indicating that a Christian my get false tongues? It is an unreasonable idea, for the loving Father cares for His children and stands ready with His might to protect them from the power of enemy.
Notice any similarities?
It's not just a matter of being in agreement on teaching, or teaching something someone else taught before you. It's lifting the words and pretending you wrote them.
You may decide that doesn't matter much to you, and that's fine. But to say he credited the writers is a deliberate misrepresentation of what he did, and an apology for his flagrant dishonesty. It is behavior we would not accept from the secular word. To excuse it in the name of God is equally dishonest.
I'm not saying that you have done so. I suspect you haven't really thought this through with a proper understanding of what plagiarism is.
Do I think the early books were intentionally plagiarized? It's not a matter of what I think. It's easily documentable that countless works of VPW consisted in part of plagiarized writings, without credit to the authors.
I guess what I was trying to say is that I always knew that vpw got many of his ideas from others.
I never felt deceived in this area because I remember him giving credit to many people for the things that he (vpw) was teaching.
I'll agree with you on that, as far as it goes. But it has nothing to do with his plagiarism. ALL CHRISTIAN TEACHERS, whether they are right or wrong, fit the description you give. Not all are plagiarists. You don't have to resort to plagiarism to be an effective Christian teacher.
"That being said, I observed him putting in COUNTLESS hours working, studying and serving us all as Founder & President of The Way International. He earned my respect in that regard. I could write LOOOOOONG posts of personally wonderful experiences w/him. "
I've read GS for 5 years and never seen a comment like that about VPW.
HCW,
Can you comment further on this?
Sure.
In 1978 when I first came to HQ I lived in the loft above the Snack Shop in the courtyard of the Wierwille home for a few months until moving into a unit.
Back then Howard Allen was VP's driver and valet. HA would stay up all night and drive through out the night to get VP from location to location while the believers were sleeping then he'd do minisrty stuff during the day.
It was normal and usual for the coach to arrive @ home during the wee hours of the morning.
I'm a very light sleeper.
There were many nights that I'd hear the coach pull in. The hissing noise of the airbrakes would awaken me. Many times, I'd get up & go say "Hey" to Howard as their usual routine was that HA would leave the coach running and walk across the courtyard over to his house across from the BRC.
It was pretty usual that folks would take advantage of being awakened and go down to the basement of the BRC where they where J*@n Ma#@*%& was usually up late getting stuff ready for breakfast.
Long story short. It was usual and ordinary to see the coach pull in, HA leave & go to bed, chat w/VP for a few, then he'd go into the coach & work. We, or sometimes I, would go get a midnite snack, hang out swapping yarns in the BRC basement for a while w/ some of the midnight "regulars" and go back to bed around & the light would still be on in the office window of the motorcoach.
Normal.
There were occasions when that would happen and VP would start his usual unending stream of meetings all day long after having been up very late the night before. I'd be up late myself, leave for shower & then work & come home around 6:00 - 6:30, relax a bit, then go back into my office & work til 8: - 9:pm (or later). The coach would be running all day, same light on.
That was usual.
We all put in a lot of hours back in those days - gladly.
We had many great times in those days.
Lots of great moments.
I'd visit w/ VP & Mrs. on a regular basis on the back stoop of their house. VP & she would sit there looking at the stars often when VP came home.
VP set a fantastic example of endlessly working hard for the believers while we were moving the word over the world.
********************
You don't hear comments like that here much because most of the folks who visit the cafe simply weren't there. I think there were only about 20 - 30 guys who lived in that loft over the years. There are accounts of what it was like in Elena Whiteside's book, "The Way Living in Love."
I got to live a little of that lovey-dovey stuff. I'd say that 1979/80 was the last year(s) of the "Good ol' days @ HQ."
I saw possessed people walking around HQ & getting healed, just by "His healing presence" at HQ. It was cool.
When I came back to HQ staff in 1983 after going through the Corps. The place was much different, colder; less caring, etc.
There were times when VP would join us all in the BRC kitchen & we'd feast on whatever. He'd tell us about the trip he'd just finished, ask us about life @ HQ while he was gone, etc.
Ralph, Vince, VP, HA, lots of guys would frequent the kitchen for midnight snacks & lots of funny stories about, "Remember the time when...?"
VPW was a predator who used God's people and his perceived authority under God to satisfy his lusts, destroying the lives and reputations of those who spoke up and passing on his ungodly justifications for his reprehensible actions to his successor.
You don't hear comments like that here much because most of the folks who visit the cafe simply weren't there. I think there were only about 20 - 30 guys who lived in that loft over the years. There are accounts of what it was like in Elena Whiteside's book, "The Way Living in Love."
I got to live a little of that lovey-dovey stuff. I'd say that 1979/80 was the last year(s) of the "Good ol' days @ HQ."
Yeah..........I stayed in that loft for about six weeks in July/Aug of 1978 (?) before moving into my corps unit. At the time, I was not fixated on vpw's movements and midnight yarns.......just wanted to "grow with God and help others"......so I don't remember vpw's comings and goings much.
I do remember Mrs. W. being pleasant and caring.......as well as lots of others, but there were little cliques and departmental groupings at every meal. No big deal...it happens everywhere. However one chooses to reminisce "the good ole days" is on a spectrum of mog-adulation to friendships to heart service for God and everything inbetween.
No, I wouldn't classify hq as "lovey-dovey stuff"........but I will agree with you that hq changed dramatically around 1979/80. IMO, the old set-up......the BRC and office building on grounds were too small for the numbers of people flocking to twi. The shell of the OSC building was in place, with plans for the offices and dining facilities, went into full production by 1979.......and corporate twi came about face.
By April/May of 1979........the BRC sunday teachings, and eating our staff meals in the basement, were replaced by the OSC facilites. Things had changed.....the "old ways" were gone.....and some balked. No matter........moving forward was the only way to go.
And, add to all this........Wierwille handed over "his ministry" to Martindale in 1982.
So, yeah.........I think it's quite clear that twi changed dramatically. But, I, in no way would classify those earlier years as "the good ole days"............unless I wanted to tag some importance to myself for being there during that period of time.
Heck.......my high school years were "some good ole days."
I think if there wasn't a good side, or at least a side that looked really good, people wouldn't have stayed in for so long.
No one could teach as frequently as Wierwille without sitting down and reading and studying and attempting to understand and see the relationships between Biblical records. I get that. So it doesn't surprise me that someone would observe VPW studying the Bible. And that's good. It really is.
And a lot of what was taught was really helpful (even some of the wrong stuff, for while I no longer believe in a "law" of believing, I DO believe in the value of maintaining a positive outlook, expecting the best, etc.).
I think it would be a mistake to look at the "good" myopically, though. Whatever good was in TWI came with a horrifying and frankly unacceptable pricetag. I am fortunate in that I did not really pay that price. But I know others did, and I won't forget that any more than I will forget whatever good I managed to get from my experience.
NP, sorry if it looked like I was picking on you or being argumentative. I didn't intend to act that way.
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rascal
Thanks HCW. your eye witness and first hand accounts explain much.
Thank you for filling in the missing puzzle pieces. Thank you for your candor.
It is damned tough to realise that things were not as we percieved, what we ferociously fought for and defended.
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NewParadigm
HCW wrote:
"That being said, I observed him putting in COUNTLESS hours working, studying and serving us all as Founder & President of The Way International. He earned my respect in that regard. I could write LOOOOOONG posts of personally wonderful experiences w/him. "
I've read GS for 5 years and never seen a comment like that about VPW.
HCW,
Can you comment further on this?
Thanks,
NP
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Ham
I find it interesting, how TWI demands from the rest of the world that which they do not fulfill- academic honesty. Look at the lawsuits.. the threats, the wrangling- over copyright infringement. Yet vic and others helped themselves to whatever their hearts desired, without the bat of an eye.
I guess they think it must be ok to steal if its for the right reason..
I set out piles of peanuts in the back yard for squirrels here (I used to put out walnuts when they were a lot less expensive).
If I have five piles out there, even widely separated, the same two squirrels will fight over each pile, one at a time.. what they don't know, or acknowledge- the nuts are MINE.
Reminds me of TWI and offshoots fighting over a bag of bones that didn't belong to any of them to begin with.
Ironic..
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washingtonweather
yes ck, in academic circles you footnote every single thing you quote..is it laborious? yes -- Is it the standard? --YES
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Ham
And I was taught that the "believers" were supposed to do BETTER than what the rest of the world was doing.
My english prof told us that we could write anything any way that we wanted.. but that documentation was to be adhered to as law.. no bending of rules, no exceptions. "I really don't wanna flunk you, but if you insist.."
Most of these guys have a very, very good memory. They WILL remember what they read and if you steal something, you are cooked.
In my school its grounds for expulsion.
But I don't know anyone that has been thrown out- 99.999% here live up to the standards.
Is it laborious?
Not really. The first time I wrote a paper, it took a LITTLE effort to figure out how to document internet sources.
But once you get the form right, its easy enough to look over your old work to see how to do it right. The rules do not change.
Even if you paraphrase, you STILL must document. And in the right way.
I think that if a person refuses to document, its pure laziness, or fraud.
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sprawled out
ck, you've got to learn to use punctuation. i thought you were doing a chico marx impression!
for the record, here's one way to punctuate what you wrote to make your communication clearer:
No sin! Well, look everyone! We got a look-a-like Christ.
can you see how that's easier to read? do you care?
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T-Bone
It might help if you take off those PFAL-colored-glasses when you read someone's post. My how quick you are to jump on anything that attacks your little idol…Honestly now, CK – are you really that dense or you're just trying to rile people up? Did I ever say that I never sinned? No – what I did was list the specific sins [and some fairly hefty ones I might add] that I never committed – here yah go let's review that again:
You must have missed a verse like
Matthew 23:23
Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.
It's funny how some people so fixate on their own interpretation of the Bible that they get tunnel vision and miss the whole point of a passage. Like what you did with me. I listed the specific sins I've never committed and you somehow think I'm saying I never sinned and go quoting a verse about all men have sinned.
What's the weightier matter in our discussion now? Well, you can speak for yourself – so I'll tell you my side. I think the Bible is clear on all sin being bad. And I also think the Bible reveals a code of justice. The principle of proportionate punishment can be gathered by noting the more serious sin requires more severe punishment. From that I take it some sins are worse than others – I would think so in terms of how it can effect and shape a character, a destiny, etc.
And there's one more angle to why I specified those particular sins in my post. The Bible is very clear on the great spiritual/mental/physical/social damage that adultery and alcoholism can do to the one dominated by those specific sins [covered quite a bit in Proverbs]. Now let's take that person and elevate him to a position of authority. VPW portrayed himself as a minister of God.
Matthew 5:19
Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
Maybe that's why passages in Timothy, Peter and a few other places hold ministers to a higher standard for a code of conduct.
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Raf
By the way, my comments and quotes were from ROW's post, not CK's. Just in case there was a misunderstanding. I do not argue with CK any longer, any more than I argue with my butt. When it does what it needs to do, I accommodate it, clean up, and go about my business without thinking much about it afterward.
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sprawled out
ha! i hadn't thought about that in years! it's a perfect example of twi religion. the Doctrine of the Breaking of the Mints has its origins in a comment vpw made: "i never finish more than half a mint," or something like that. what he meant was he'd never keep sucking on a mint until it was gone, but would spit it out after a while. so breaking the backroom mints in half became official twi practice, all based on an idiotic misunderstanding of what the manicotti (the big cheese) said.
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Ham
Yep- it was another suggestion tantamount to a command by the old vicmeister..
I think people don't want to remember those kind of meetings.. the yelling, screaming.. even in the seventies.
Seems some folks would rather remember the fish, the garlic, the onions, the leeks..
"well, they beat the snot out of us, but the food was OK.."
maybe vic wasn't right after all, the way to a man's heart actually is through his stomach.
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frank123lol
Whatever happened to"You get more with a little honey,than with a lot of vinegar?"
When ole Vic wanted something"Find out what he likes and get him some"
Why did we put up with the yelling?
I remember I was late to a leaders meeting,I was asked why I was late? Why I replied? well I do not have an excuse.Man the whole rest of the meeting I got yelled at.Shoulda jumped and said"Go to Hell!!"
instead I took it .
Twi was only great if you were not in the center of not getting yelled at for some bs.
Love of God nope,Why can you not put together pfal or later wap.
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ROW
Welcome to GSC.
It is NOT "teaching the same thing." It is taking what someone else wrote and pretending you wrote it.
Second try to answer a quote. Not doing well yet. I'll learn.
Thanks for the welcome.
I guess what I was trying to say is that I always knew that vpw got many of his ideas from others.
I never felt deceived in this area because I remember him giving credit to many people for the things that he (vpw) was teaching. For that reason I never looked at his writings as plagiarism. Maybe I’m wrong here, but doesn’t there have to be some intent to be plagiarism? Also, I’m somewhat ignorant here too; do you think the early books were intentionally plagiarized?
My problems started when the teachings changed and as I was just reading on gsc, when people started being mistreated.
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Raf
I was trying to draw a distinction between what you say he did, which was not plagiarism, and what he actually did, which was plagiarism.
Here's a real easy example: In JE Stiles' book on the Holy Spirit (I forget the name of the book), Stiles has a chapter of common questions and answers. One of the questions is whether people can receive "false" tongues, or something like that.
Compare the same section of Receiving the Holy Spirit today, and you'll find that the question and answer are lifted almost word for word! That's dishonest. There's nothing in RTHST that talks about Stiles or credits him for his contribution to the book. It was a wholesale theft.
Stiles: 8. Is it not possible for a Christian to receive false tongues or a false spirit when seeking to receive the Holy Spirit?
Wierwille: 8. Is it possible for a Christian to receive false tongues or a false spirit when believing for the holy spirit?
Stiles: Answer: When people ask that question, we know that they; have somewhere come in contact with one of the "faith blasters" who go about making statements which have no foundation in Scripture. When we suggest to earnest Christians that they may get something false, when seeking more of the fulness of God, we sinfully dishonor God and His Holy Spirit. Where, we ask, is there the slightest suggestion in the Bible that the Christian, whose heart longs for more of God, may get false tongues or a false spirit? If such a thing could happen, it would have to be true that, either God was too careless and indifferent about the welfare of His children, or else he was too weak to protect them from the power of the enemy.
Wierwille: When I am asked that question, I know that person has come into contact with those whom i term "faith blasters," who go about making statements which have no foundation in Scripture. When someone suggests to earnest Christians that they are in danger of receiving something false when believing to manifest the fulness of God according to God's Word, he sinfully dishonors God. Where is there a chapter or verse indicating that a Christian my get false tongues? It is an unreasonable idea, for the loving Father cares for His children and stands ready with His might to protect them from the power of enemy.
Notice any similarities?
It's not just a matter of being in agreement on teaching, or teaching something someone else taught before you. It's lifting the words and pretending you wrote them.
You may decide that doesn't matter much to you, and that's fine. But to say he credited the writers is a deliberate misrepresentation of what he did, and an apology for his flagrant dishonesty. It is behavior we would not accept from the secular word. To excuse it in the name of God is equally dishonest.
I'm not saying that you have done so. I suspect you haven't really thought this through with a proper understanding of what plagiarism is.
Do I think the early books were intentionally plagiarized? It's not a matter of what I think. It's easily documentable that countless works of VPW consisted in part of plagiarized writings, without credit to the authors.
I'll agree with you on that, as far as it goes. But it has nothing to do with his plagiarism. ALL CHRISTIAN TEACHERS, whether they are right or wrong, fit the description you give. Not all are plagiarists. You don't have to resort to plagiarism to be an effective Christian teacher.
Lest we derail, I'll stop here and refer you to http://www.empirenet.com/~messiah7/vp_stiles.htm and http://www.greasespotcafe.com/editorial/pl...m-wierwille.htm
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HCW
Sure.
In 1978 when I first came to HQ I lived in the loft above the Snack Shop in the courtyard of the Wierwille home for a few months until moving into a unit.
Back then Howard Allen was VP's driver and valet. HA would stay up all night and drive through out the night to get VP from location to location while the believers were sleeping then he'd do minisrty stuff during the day.
It was normal and usual for the coach to arrive @ home during the wee hours of the morning.
I'm a very light sleeper.
There were many nights that I'd hear the coach pull in. The hissing noise of the airbrakes would awaken me. Many times, I'd get up & go say "Hey" to Howard as their usual routine was that HA would leave the coach running and walk across the courtyard over to his house across from the BRC.
It was pretty usual that folks would take advantage of being awakened and go down to the basement of the BRC where they where J*@n Ma#@*%& was usually up late getting stuff ready for breakfast.
Long story short. It was usual and ordinary to see the coach pull in, HA leave & go to bed, chat w/VP for a few, then he'd go into the coach & work. We, or sometimes I, would go get a midnite snack, hang out swapping yarns in the BRC basement for a while w/ some of the midnight "regulars" and go back to bed around & the light would still be on in the office window of the motorcoach.
Normal.
There were occasions when that would happen and VP would start his usual unending stream of meetings all day long after having been up very late the night before. I'd be up late myself, leave for shower & then work & come home around 6:00 - 6:30, relax a bit, then go back into my office & work til 8: - 9:pm (or later). The coach would be running all day, same light on.
That was usual.
We all put in a lot of hours back in those days - gladly.
We had many great times in those days.
Lots of great moments.
I'd visit w/ VP & Mrs. on a regular basis on the back stoop of their house. VP & she would sit there looking at the stars often when VP came home.
VP set a fantastic example of endlessly working hard for the believers while we were moving the word over the world.
********************
You don't hear comments like that here much because most of the folks who visit the cafe simply weren't there. I think there were only about 20 - 30 guys who lived in that loft over the years. There are accounts of what it was like in Elena Whiteside's book, "The Way Living in Love."
I got to live a little of that lovey-dovey stuff. I'd say that 1979/80 was the last year(s) of the "Good ol' days @ HQ."
I saw possessed people walking around HQ & getting healed, just by "His healing presence" at HQ. It was cool.
When I came back to HQ staff in 1983 after going through the Corps. The place was much different, colder; less caring, etc.
There were times when VP would join us all in the BRC kitchen & we'd feast on whatever. He'd tell us about the trip he'd just finished, ask us about life @ HQ while he was gone, etc.
Ralph, Vince, VP, HA, lots of guys would frequent the kitchen for midnight snacks & lots of funny stories about, "Remember the time when...?"
Great times. simply great.
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NewParadigm
Thank you.
What you describe is what I had always pictured in my mind.
Until GSC, of course.
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George Aar
Anybody see where I left my rose-colored glasses?
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NewParadigm
Yeah, check your rear-end.
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Raf
It's almost refreshing to hear stories like that...
Until you realize other ways he used that motor coach.
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NewParadigm
In other words until you realize that he was an imperfect human.
Everyone has to decide how they will deal with this.
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Raf
Everyone's an imperfect human.
VPW was a predator who used God's people and his perceived authority under God to satisfy his lusts, destroying the lives and reputations of those who spoke up and passing on his ungodly justifications for his reprehensible actions to his successor.
Not everyone fits THAT description.
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NewParadigm
OK
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skyrider
Yeah..........I stayed in that loft for about six weeks in July/Aug of 1978 (?) before moving into my corps unit. At the time, I was not fixated on vpw's movements and midnight yarns.......just wanted to "grow with God and help others"......so I don't remember vpw's comings and goings much.
I do remember Mrs. W. being pleasant and caring.......as well as lots of others, but there were little cliques and departmental groupings at every meal. No big deal...it happens everywhere. However one chooses to reminisce "the good ole days" is on a spectrum of mog-adulation to friendships to heart service for God and everything inbetween.
No, I wouldn't classify hq as "lovey-dovey stuff"........but I will agree with you that hq changed dramatically around 1979/80. IMO, the old set-up......the BRC and office building on grounds were too small for the numbers of people flocking to twi. The shell of the OSC building was in place, with plans for the offices and dining facilities, went into full production by 1979.......and corporate twi came about face.
By April/May of 1979........the BRC sunday teachings, and eating our staff meals in the basement, were replaced by the OSC facilites. Things had changed.....the "old ways" were gone.....and some balked. No matter........moving forward was the only way to go.
And, add to all this........Wierwille handed over "his ministry" to Martindale in 1982.
So, yeah.........I think it's quite clear that twi changed dramatically. But, I, in no way would classify those earlier years as "the good ole days"............unless I wanted to tag some importance to myself for being there during that period of time.
Heck.......my high school years were "some good ole days."
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Ham
I dunno.. the further removed I'm removed from the old days, the worse and darker they look.
I think I was addicted to abuse, like a narcotic or something.
When people beat on a person, and it starts to feels good, I think said person is in trouble.
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Raf
I think if there wasn't a good side, or at least a side that looked really good, people wouldn't have stayed in for so long.
No one could teach as frequently as Wierwille without sitting down and reading and studying and attempting to understand and see the relationships between Biblical records. I get that. So it doesn't surprise me that someone would observe VPW studying the Bible. And that's good. It really is.
And a lot of what was taught was really helpful (even some of the wrong stuff, for while I no longer believe in a "law" of believing, I DO believe in the value of maintaining a positive outlook, expecting the best, etc.).
I think it would be a mistake to look at the "good" myopically, though. Whatever good was in TWI came with a horrifying and frankly unacceptable pricetag. I am fortunate in that I did not really pay that price. But I know others did, and I won't forget that any more than I will forget whatever good I managed to get from my experience.
NP, sorry if it looked like I was picking on you or being argumentative. I didn't intend to act that way.
And if I didn't say it yet, welcome to GSC!
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