ck, oldiesman, allan and mike are all notorious for completely derailing threads and other behavior that generates the same type of complaints. The funny thing is, I think they don't even get along all that great with each other. :ph34r:
Bell......I tend to think that some of the vpw-apologists of this board see that there is a "higher level of vpw-adulation" (idolizing) that even THEY can't agree with.
Seems like some vpw-fanatics put THE MAN on a pedestal........other fanatics put HIS PLAGAIRIZED WORK on a pedestal.
Count Dooku: Good. Twice the pride, double the fall.
Count Dooku: I sense great fear in you, Skywalker. You have hate. You have anger. But you don't use them.
Correct me if I am wrong but didn't Anakin defeat Dooku himself. He may have fallen but not to the Count. With the fear I have none, I hate no one and I am angry for the stupidity of this post. There will not be a fall, in order for me to fall it would have to happen here at GS.
There I was looking at post #88 when suddenly I could not believe my eyes. CKMc. ,in his own words, disputed the teachings of VPW. Who would have thought it could happen. There on post # 88, CK ,when referring to speaking in tongues , said he felt that SIT daily as a prerequisite to revelation was (and I am using his terminology) A CROCK! And yet on page 10 of the advanced class syllabus, DocVic himself says that key # 3 to walking in the spirit (receiving revelation, in this context) is SIT on a daily basis . It doesn't say this is a suggestion or a good idea, it says that this is a prerequisite. CK, I have to say I agree with you on this one. It is ,to use your description, a CROCK!
Topic of I Believe the Way was good(at some point)
As most of you who have read my post know. I believe that TWI at some point was good. During the time it was around I believe that VPW taught truth. I believe LCM had some good teaching (not many)
"The Way" started off good but it spiraled out of control to where the corrupt TWI is today. Dr.Wierwille did his best and you can quote me on that. Yes he had error, doubt, and failures (LCM) but in all of that he did the best of his ability. I believe the early doctrines of VPW were true. TWI is very corrupt today I would recommend that everyone should stay away. The way I see it is that "The Way" turned to be just another church. Soon the way will teach the trinity, must be saved by baptisim, etc.. Just like "The Sinless Universal Place of Public Worship"(The Holy Catholic Church). That is from the Webster Dictionary. So on a last note TWI and VPW in the early years taught truth to the best of there ability
God Bless
ckmkeon
Well now this post is horrible, whats next
Topic of What Happened to the word
I think we should get off the subject of what Dr.Wierwille did or LCM but we should do as the bible says to do . The Bible is bigger than any one man or ministry, when we believe the bible we can do all things. We need to get the knowledge of the word believe what it has to say and leave the leaders out of it. I would say start in Romans and end in Thessalonians and see what we learn just from that . Then after that start a fellowship and teach what you know to everyone
God Bless,
ckmckeon
So come on guys when I got here I really tried to be nice and loving. I changed to defend the honor of my belief. So you really can't sell me on that I was bent on raising hell the moment I got here. Just the oppisite happened, but of course in your twisted mind you have decided to make you own truth.
This is the third greeting I got from GS on my post What Happened to the word
ckm, no offense intended, but "knowledge of the word" is what got everybody in trouble to start with.
"Knowledge of the word"without a relationship with Jesus causes no end of pain and heartache. I think that's why we witnessed the train wreck of the way, inc
By the way this is a matter of fact, proven by man for man. Till next time.
Patrick & Sarah...you guys might consider some serious rehab.
I don't know what Way you two belonged to, but the one I was in ('92-'00) was a controlling, lying, self-serving, smug, elitist, cliquish CULT whose managers (damned if I call them leaders) browbeat/intimidated/ran roughshod its followers, sexually assulted followers under the guise (LIE!!!) of service to the man of god, & attempted to insinuate themselves into every facet of their followers lives, regardless of whether or not they had any experience in it. Oh, did I mention how they perversly twisted Gods' Word to suit their own evil?
A cult started by a liar/plagerist/sexual predator who was followed by a liar/frustrated wannabe jock/sexual predator followed by a liar? One where it took a lawsuit (that twi tried their damnest to whitewash, from the number of lawsuits, to "insurance" covering the suits) to open most followers' eyes.
And no, I didn't suffer some of the indignities that some here in the Cafe went through (I guess the worst was them telling my wife she shouldn't marry me because I wasn't a advance class grad...THANK GOD FOR MY HARD HEADED WIFE!!! {DON'T ANYBODY TELL HER I CALLED HER THAT!!!}), but I've seen, heard & read of their evils...
"TWI was great"...My azz!!!
(ckmkeon...no hope for you. You're what my Army D.I referred to as "ate up with the azz")
Correct me if I am wrong but didn't Anakin defeat Dooku himself. He may have fallen but not to the Count.
General Grievous: But the loss of Count Dooku?
Darth Sidious: His death was a necessary loss. Soon I will have a new apprentice, one far younger and more powerful.
Anakin Skywalker: Something's happening. I'm not the Jedi I should be. I want more. But I know I shouldn't.
[Later:]
Obi-Wan: You have allowed this Dark Lord to twist your mind until now... until now you have become the very thing you swore to destroy.
Anakin Skywalker: Don't lecture me, Obi-Wan. I see through the lies of the Jedi. I do not fear the dark side as you do. I have brought peace, justice, freedom, and security to my new Empire.
Obi-Wan: Your new Empire?
Anakin Skywalker: Don't make me kill you.
Obi-Wan: Anakin, my allegiance is to the Republic... to democracy!
Anakin Skywalker: If you're not with me, you're my enemy.
Obi-Wan: Only a Sith Lord deals in absolutes. I will do what I must.
What I'm talking about is how a cheesy sci-fi film like Star Wars mimics life: specifically regarding one's perception of good and evil and how one changes their perception whenever power (knowledge) has been/is being denied them.
Consider the dialog between the Chancellor and Anakin for example: [From: Star Wars III: Revenge of the Sith]
Supreme Chancellor: Remember back to your early teachings. "All who gain power are afraid to lose it." Even the Jedi.
Anakin Skywalker: The Jedi use their power for good.
Supreme Chancellor: Good is a point of view, Anakin. The Sith and the Jedi are similar in almost every way, including their quest for greater power.
Anakin Skywalker: The Sith rely on their passion for their strength. They think inward, only about themselves.
Supreme Chancellor: And the Jedi don't?
Anakin Skywalker: The Jedi are selfless... they only care about others.
Supreme Chancellor: Did you ever hear the tragedy of Darth Plagueis "the wise"?
Anakin Skywalker: No.
Supreme Chancellor: I thought not. It's not a story the Jedi would tell you. It's a Sith legend. Darth Plagueis was a Dark Lord of the Sith, so powerful and so wise he could use the Force to influence the midichlorians to create life... He had such a knowledge of the dark side that he could even keep the ones he cared about from dying.
Anakin Skywalker: He could actually save people from death?
Supreme Chancellor: The dark side of the Force is a pathway to many abilities some consider to be unnatural.
Anakin Skywalker: What happened to him?
Supreme Chancellor: He became so powerful... the only thing he was afraid of was losing his power, which eventually, of course, he did. Unfortunately, he taught his apprentice everything he knew, then his apprentice killed him in his sleep. It's ironic. He could save others from death, but not himself.
Anakin Skywalker: Is it possible to learn this power?
Topic of I Believe the Way was good(at some point)
As most of you who have read my post know. I believe that TWI at some point was good. During the time it was around I believe that VPW taught truth.
[As most of us know, you weren't around for any of that. You never met vpw and never participated
in even the most cursory twi activities. You're basing your entire "report" on what 2 people told you-
people who never were "initiated" into the highest level of twi involvement. Furthermore, no matter
how much information indicates you really DON'T know what happened, you're determined to keep
the same opinion. Honouring your father and mother is a good thing, but never going past
what they taught you is a bad thing.]
I believe LCM had some good teaching (not many)
"The Way" started off good but it spiraled out of control to where the corrupt TWI is today. Dr.Wierwille did his best and you can quote me on that.
[Most people will quote those people considered to be an AUTHORITY on a subject-
someone who has spent years in study, research and application,
or who innovated the subject.
We have many people who have far more authority on this subject than you.
As in, people who were there, eyewitnesses.]
Yes he had error, doubt, and failures (LCM) but in all of that he did the best of his ability.
[see my previous point.]
I believe the early doctrines of VPW were true.
[some of them were plagiarized or otherwise taken from skilled Christian leaders,
and some of those are quite good. Some of them were not, and some of those
are quite bad.
BTW, one of those "early doctrines" of VPW was that "Speaking in Tongues daily
is prerequisite to revelation." You've already said that was nonsense.
WHILE saying VPW's early doctrines were true.
Are you still determined to conclude you really know what happened in spite of
neither being there nor listening to anyone who WAS?]
TWI is very corrupt today I would recommend that everyone should stay away.
[twi is what it is-and that's the result of bad decisions made through its entire
history, and bad policies set in place BY vpw.]
The way I see it is that "The Way" turned to be just another church. Soon the way will teach the trinity, must be saved by baptisim, etc..
[You really see it worse that a place would teach baptism for salvation (a church)
than have the top leadership drugging and raping the congregation (twi),
don't you?]
Just like "The Sinless Universal Place of Public Worship"(The Holy Catholic Church). That is from the Webster Dictionary.
[WHICH Webster Dictionary?
I'll give you a free lesson:
the name "Webster's Dictionary" is not protected by copyright. ANYONE-including you- can write a
"Webster's Dictionary". So that's hardly authoritative. That's why people name
SPECIFIC dictionaries, and usually COLLEGIATE ones.
Personally, I'm confident even the BAD ones don't actually list
"The Sinless Universal Place of Public Worship" as a definition for
"the Holy Catholic Church". But if not, please invoke the specific one that DOES.]
So on a last note TWI and VPW in the early years taught truth to the best of there ability
[You weren't there, and you ignore the people who WERE there, so repeating your report
STILL doesn't make it any more informative, or any less your OPINION.]
God Bless
ckmkeon
Well now this post is horrible, whats next
Topic of What Happened to the word
I think we should get off the subject of what Dr.Wierwille did or LCM
[That would mean getting off this messageboard. Car messageboards discuss cars.
Ex-twi messageboards discuss what vpw and lcm did.]
but we should do as the bible says to do .
[The WHOLE Bible, or just the verses you like?]
The Bible is bigger than any one man or ministry, when we believe the bible we can do all things.
[Great slogan.
I'll pay attention right after you get a mountain to jump up and throw itself into the sea.]
We need to get the knowledge of the word believe what it has to say and leave the leaders out of it.
[That's something a lot of people here agree with, and some DO.
You're too busy calling them possessed to notice.]
I would say start in Romans and end in Thessalonians and see what we learn just from that . Then after that start a fellowship and teach what you know to everyone
[That's far too little of the Bible to work from!]
God Bless,
ckmckeon
So come on guys when I got here I really tried to be nice and loving.
[No you didn't- you came to tell us what was "true"- and that we were wrong when we
disagreed and explained why.]
I changed to defend the honor of my belief. So you really can't sell me on that I was bent on raising hell the moment I got here. Just the oppisite happened,
[That's like going on a Holocaust Survivor messageboard, announcing the concentration camps
they were rescued from NEVER EXISTED, then claiming that you
"changed to defend the honor of your belief" when they disagreed and invoked evidence.]
but of course in your twisted mind you have decided to make you own truth.
[Or in your "twisted mind" (your expression, not mine), you decided to make your own truth.]
This is the third greeting I got from GS on my post What Happened to the word
ckm, no offense intended, but "knowledge of the word" is what got everybody in trouble to start with.
"Knowledge of the word"without a relationship with Jesus causes no end of pain and heartache. I think that's why we witnessed the train wreck of the way, inc
[And that post was CORRECT. Knowledge puffs up. I Corinthians 13. It's in the Church Epistles.
Somehow you're determined to read that as some sort of attack. Well, that's your problem-
we're not shackled by that prejudice.]
By the way this is a matter of fact, proven by man for man. Till next time.
[Do you think that making these little side-notes somehow makes your posts look
more scholarly or logical? If so, it's not working. You can just skip typing them.
As dramatic flourishes, they fall flat.
If you want to persuade, you need more SUBSTANCE.
Style is not an effective replacement for substance, especially around here.]
I'd say I was a bit narrowminded when I first posted it.
I came to the realization that I was not nearly as devastated from TWI as a lot of folks where and are. When I got back from Korea, the breakup had already occurred.
I was only involved with the actual TWI for less then a year. I went to one ROA and then got sent to Korea. After Korea I hooked up with the folks who chose not to choose a loyalty of men...........So heck what do I know? Not much.
Thanks for the replies and the personal messages.
Patrick, were you in South Korea around '89? I was supposed to write you and get a twig going. I was stationed at Suwon AB. '89 to '90
...I think we should get off the subject of what Dr.Wierwille did or LCM but we should do as the bible says to do . The Bible is bigger than any one man or ministry, when we believe the bible we can do all things. We need to get the knowledge of the word believe what it has to say and leave the leaders out of it. I would say start in Romans and end in Thessalonians and see what we learn just from that . Then after that start a fellowship and teach what you know to everyone...
Your advice sounds very pious and appealing – to people who defend the perpetrators of evil. But as any serious Bible student who intends to obey biblical commands will tell you – you're advising Christians to ignore what Jesus said:
Matthew 7: 15-20
15Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.
16 Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?
17 Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.
18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.
19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.
But of course you would miss Jesus' teaching on discernment by starting at Romans…It is slightly amusing to see someone who has never met VPW, has a very brief experience with TWI and demonstrates a shallow understanding of Scripture application – come on GSC and declare he's going to "raise hell" with those big guns. It's more like you're trying to raise VPW from the dead…But lest your idol remain idle – let's put it to good use here…by re-interpreting your post according to how I knowTWI actually operated [note: the following statement is to be read in a hypnotic sounding monotone for the full effect]:
"I think we should subject ourselves to whatever Dr.Wierwille or LCM say we should do – whether or not it's clearly stated in the Bible."
It's a learning experience, everyone here are some great examples of complete disregard. Seeing that the only thing you have against me is spelling. My knowledge of the word has doubled since the last time I was here. Why you ask; Simply to face the evil to come, I will start right here facing it everyday. Then with God's help I will be able to withstand all evil staring the devil in the eyes. Bringing back the word of truth to everyone. Well I sure hope that answers your question.
Do you have any idea how robotic you sound? It is almost frightening.
Here is the thing, if you are here "to face the evil to come" then I must say your responses have helped me to see the evil that is. I am sorry that you are blind, young and easily taken over by evil doctrines. Perhaps, if you get away and get out in life and ask GOD to help you, you may see how pure his love is and how tainted the stuff you have been calling "love" has been.
I will pray for your deliverance for the God you seek is not in the organization presenting him.
Do you have any idea how robotic you sound? It is almost frightening.
I think it IS frightening, very frightening, at least to me it is.
Nowadays I wonder, and have for a LOOOOOOOONG time, why it is that people in TWI just can't seem to speak in plain English.
I've long felt that all of the "wayspeak" contributes directly to the individual giving up his free will and willingly giving up control of his mind and subsequently, his life.
I think at one point TWI was "good." Problem is that most all of the "bad stuff" happened simultaneously with the good. People in differing locations and dealing w/differing people simultaneously had VERY different experiences.
Personally, my Mom was VERY skeptical of my involvement w/TWI when I started going to twig in 1974/75.
I had "good" experiences so she made me promise to her, which I did that I would "get out" at the point which I saw it as being "bad."
I saw just how bad it was, from the inside out, when I got canned from TWI staff @ HQ in 1988.
I saw just how bad it IS, from the inside out, when my current job took me to TWI HQ a couple of months ago.
The current TWI minion is SOOOO "far under" that they think they are, figuratively speaking, seeing green when in fact it is very dark black that they are looking at.
At the center of the thing is this crazy Wayspeak thing. There is a subtle difference between conforming "to belong" and conforming under the influence, as in being controlled.
When I see the convoluted speaking patterns, the over use of specific terms, like "our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ." (WHY can't they just say, Jesus? Or The Lord? or something? Why do they ALL say it ALWAYS the SAME way????) When you MUST use the term, and when one finds themselves shackeled to the use of terminology as the average rank & file TWIT is....
My personal experience w/ TWI includes, and I'm not so proud to mention this, my "writing off" things that I saw that were definitely NOT "good" and basically ignoring them.
I wrote things off to:
"Well, people are people and nobody's perfect."
Then I switched my position to one who was "fighting for what we knew to be right."
In retrospect I see that all we were really doing was just fighting.
Fighting for a cause by definition requires that there be a cause that is good, just and basically "right."
It gets blurred when one throws in this Biblical truth:
"All the ways of a fool are RIGHT in his own eyes."
You can find that in proverbs, folks if one is so inclined to look for it.
History tells us that all types of folks have fought for all types of causes, some "right" some "wrong." In some ways what is or isn't "right" is a matter of perspective, or a matter of individual perception.
I believe VPW taught a LOT of "right" things. Right as defined as universally "good" for whomever applied the precepts he taught.
I also believe VPW taught a LOT of WRONG things. Wrong as defined as universally detremental for whomever applied the precepts he taught.
Just what was it we were fighting for? Why then, if we were SOOOOO freakin' right, did we "lose?" If GOD be for us WHO can be against us?
As much as at one time I wanted to believe VP was "right" and "good," when I now, at this point in my life w/ a few miles under my belt, some worn tread on the tires of my life. After having had and taken the time to distance myself from the perceptions and perspectives that was & IS TWI... I feel compelled to say, objectively speaking,
TWI was NOT great.
People have good times in prison, locked away for life.
Jeffery Dahlmer was a pretty bright guy.
Charles Manson is one of the most brilliantly persuasive and gifted public speakers one will ever see.
My personal experience w/ TWI was prompted by my attempts to be faithful to my promise I made to my Mom. The promise was based on a Bible teaching, a truth I heard for the first time, after having been raised "in the church," taught by VPW:
Prove ALL things hold fast to the good. TWI, was NOT "good." Its foundation was not based on the desire to be "good." "Good was not what was in the heart of its founder as his reason(s) for starting it. "A house that is built on sand will NOT stand. When the wind and the waves come rushing in it will SURELY fall." ( I think it was Jesus who said that.)
VPW taught me that God is truly real and that He, God, loves me. For that I am eternally grateful and thank God for VPW's teaching me that. That was a GOOD thing.
I also saw VPW, while serving in his position as "the man of God," slurring his words, singing and sloppy drunk at the first HQ staff Christmas party I ever attended as a member of HQ staff. I took pictures of him. His being drunk like that was a BAD thing.
It was universally and wholly bad because the Bible he SAID he gave his life to live and "make his own" clearly said, so simply, "be not drunken...."
I should have walked. Right then, on the spot. BUT. I didn't. I chose to ignore what I KNEW was "wrong" and justify the behavior because of who I THOUGHT he was. Even though I SAW, with my own eyes that VPW was intentionally NOT living as "the man he knew to be."
That, my friends was ME being under the influence. I was under his control. As much as my free thinking self
hates to admit it. I was a FOOL who was being fooled (this is by the Biblical definitions of the same).
I see life much more simply now than I did then. Why? Because I'm FREE from the influence.
I now believe that when I person chooses to use (as in accepting it as a part of himself in the way HE chooses to communicate) any of those freakin' TWIT terminologies he is, as they (TWI) so often put it, "opening himself up" to what I'm calling "the influence." The principal used in the movie industry...
The willing suspension of disbelief.
This is how we believe that an actor is the character he's portraying. This willing suspension of disbelief is why we cry real tears during "Fried Green Tomatoes."
I willingly "suspended my disbelief" when I saw VPW drunk. I should have believed that he was a a hypocrite. In fact I DID. I was appalled and shocked by what I saw. To my credit, I guess, I decided to never just swallow everything he said lock, stock & barrel. Buy now, I realize that that was BS. I was lying to myself. I accepted what he said by NOT walking. I gave his actions my approval by not quitting and contining to FOLLOW him.
This is what happened to us ALL, to varying degrees when we joined TWI.
Oh yes we DID join! Even though there was no "membership" we sure as hell joined it.
TWI. VPW, LCM and now Rosalie & co. took advantage of us. They are criminally taking advantage of the current followers of The Way even as we "speak."
Riddle me this Batman.... Just why is it that people involved in TWI are "followers" when Webster's Dictionary defines their involvement as being "associates."
Big difference between followers & associates.
How come I'm welcome to spend the night at my sisters' homes in PA any time but I'm not allowed to set foot in my sister in Christ Rosalie Rivenbark's house? I thought everthing TWI owned belonged to EVERY believer. Rosalie's just a steward of that really cool, one of a kind custom built home, w/an inground pool in the back yard. (I guess Way Builders couldn't have put in a community sized pool for the rest of the staffers to use back there in the trailer park. I guess there wasn't room on the more than 300 acres to put in a pool for the average Joe Believer who works on staff?)
Well... I digress.
Isn't my sisterhood in Christ, as a member of God's family, a little bit BIGGER and BETTER and a LOT longer lasting than the fact that I shared my Mom's womb w/ my fleshly sisters.
Didn't Jesus say that we should forgive "seven times seventy?" No. He says we should "mark and avoid" our brothers and sisters in Christ who decide they don't want to swear allegiance to Craig.
The problem w/ using the TWIT terminology is that one stops THINKING and starts FOLLOWING. And they sure as hell aint following GOD.
VPW wanted, so desperately, for people to follow HIM. He used the framework of Bible teaching for HIS OWN purposes. That, in my very educated opinion, is how he lived life on the see-saw, good/bad. I was not only there, I actually "been there, done that, and for a long time time it was ME who DESIGNED the T'shirt.
What was in his heart, regardless of ANY and ALL good he did was basically WRONG.
He didn't teach the stuff he taught so we could have personal relationships w/ GOD. He taught what he taught so we could have personal relationships w/ HIM.
VPW wanted, above all else, to be KING. He wanted to live, "in your face" to his detractors. He CREATED the monster we know as LCM, the star of TWI II.
Some of you know far better than I ever could VPW as the monster, the star of TWI I. Some of you know that the times I and others describe as "the good ol' days of TWI" were in fact not so darn "good" after all.
I could go on and on and describe VPW and life @ HQ from a different perspective and prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that King, master & leader was what VPW was after.
He wasn't lying when he said he never wanted to be "the man of God."
"From the HEART flow the issues of life."
He just wanted what he got... to be "king."
Take a look at the history, even the published history of TWI. There is nothing in it like VPW saying, "I always wanted to, and have had for all of my life a burning desire to know God and His word as it hasn't been taught for centuries." What is there is how he got mad at this person, how he disagreed w/the church, how he was a renegade in his youth, how he did this, that and the other thing, "in the face" of the community.
I witnessed probably hundreds of decisions VPW made through the years I was on staff there that I personally felt were, "not the best PR" for the ministry. He was always more like "giving the finger" to folks who said we were a cult, etc. At the time we sorta liked it. It went w/ the general protest everything nature of the times..... BUT.
It was wrong. Why? Chapter & verse. We didn't, as a ministry follow Jesus' edicts chapter & verse. Even when we gave "authorities" the finger, it was like F-U. When Jesus gave "the finger" he was ALWAYS pointing out how it was THEM who had already given GOD their middle finger. Big difference in terms of which side of the fence one is on.
Looking back the 8 years of my life spent on staff @ HQ were the most stifling and frustrating of my ENTIRE career. Even when I was fired by companies w/ lack of morals & ethics, I was actually treated BETTER.
I see clearly now because I'm not looking at things w/ a pre-conceived notion that "this is good." I now see that when I was working @ HQ and felt, "man, doing this is a pain in the rear...." What was actually going on is that they were shoving a huge stick up my foot.
Can anybody tell me the Biblical significance of naming the company's corporate jet parallel to what the President of the US (the most powerful man in the whole freakin' world) calls HIS corporate jet? VPW even had them paint the darn thing thing to look just like the President's plane. He even had the interior done in a similar fashion.
He even had ME design a Founder & President's seal to look like the US President's official seal. They developed official protocals that were the SAME as the the US president's. We even had secret security for VP during major events that was just like the Secret Service.
All this was "necessary." ???
Sure. For the man who wanted to be king.
I think you catch my drift.
I'll close this in honor of the season w/ a reminder that the man born King of angels, God's only begotten son whose birth we celebrate at this time of year....
He never had a corporate camel.
Born in a manger.
Rode on a donkey.
He who was greatest among us was our servant. HE never had a song written to apologize for not living as he should.
Darth Sidious: His death was a necessary loss. Soon I will have a new apprentice, one far younger and more powerful.
Anakin Skywalker: Something's happening. I'm not the Jedi I should be. I want more. But I know I shouldn't.
[Later:]
Obi-Wan: You have allowed this Dark Lord to twist your mind until now... until now you have become the very thing you swore to destroy.
Anakin Skywalker: Don't lecture me, Obi-Wan. I see through the lies of the Jedi. I do not fear the dark side as you do. I have brought peace, justice, freedom, and security to my new Empire.
Obi-Wan: Your new Empire?
Anakin Skywalker: Don't make me kill you.
Obi-Wan: Anakin, my allegiance is to the Republic... to democracy!
Anakin Skywalker: If you're not with me, you're my enemy.
Obi-Wan: Only a Sith Lord deals in absolutes. I will do what I must.
Anakin Skywalker: You will try.
[they fight]
Padme's dying words There still good in him
Luke Skywalker There is good in him I can feel it.
Maybe if you didn't get stuck on episode 3 you might have figured it out.
15Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.
Yeah I know what you mean I am trying to avoid you all I can. Now I am not saying you are one, no thats what I am trying to tell ya. You are the False Prophet you speak about. These things you talk about are your future.
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TrustAndObey
Tom & Belle,
I understand what y'all are saying. So, as I was always told, if you can't say anything nice, don't say anything at all..
So with that, Ii will gracefully leave this here umm table, and go sit at the bar...
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skyrider
Bell......I tend to think that some of the vpw-apologists of this board see that there is a "higher level of vpw-adulation" (idolizing) that even THEY can't agree with.
Seems like some vpw-fanatics put THE MAN on a pedestal........other fanatics put HIS PLAGAIRIZED WORK on a pedestal.
Go figure. :)
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Tom Strange
I understand that they make a mean "Long Island Ice Tea" here... have one on me...
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ckmkeon
Correct me if I am wrong but didn't Anakin defeat Dooku himself. He may have fallen but not to the Count. With the fear I have none, I hate no one and I am angry for the stupidity of this post. There will not be a fall, in order for me to fall it would have to happen here at GS.
CK
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waysider
There I was looking at post #88 when suddenly I could not believe my eyes. CKMc. ,in his own words, disputed the teachings of VPW. Who would have thought it could happen. There on post # 88, CK ,when referring to speaking in tongues , said he felt that SIT daily as a prerequisite to revelation was (and I am using his terminology) A CROCK! And yet on page 10 of the advanced class syllabus, DocVic himself says that key # 3 to walking in the spirit (receiving revelation, in this context) is SIT on a daily basis . It doesn't say this is a suggestion or a good idea, it says that this is a prerequisite. CK, I have to say I agree with you on this one. It is ,to use your description, a CROCK!
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ckmkeon
Topic of I Believe the Way was good(at some point)
As most of you who have read my post know. I believe that TWI at some point was good. During the time it was around I believe that VPW taught truth. I believe LCM had some good teaching (not many)
"The Way" started off good but it spiraled out of control to where the corrupt TWI is today. Dr.Wierwille did his best and you can quote me on that. Yes he had error, doubt, and failures (LCM) but in all of that he did the best of his ability. I believe the early doctrines of VPW were true. TWI is very corrupt today I would recommend that everyone should stay away. The way I see it is that "The Way" turned to be just another church. Soon the way will teach the trinity, must be saved by baptisim, etc.. Just like "The Sinless Universal Place of Public Worship"(The Holy Catholic Church). That is from the Webster Dictionary. So on a last note TWI and VPW in the early years taught truth to the best of there ability
God Bless
ckmkeon
Well now this post is horrible, whats next
Topic of What Happened to the word
I think we should get off the subject of what Dr.Wierwille did or LCM but we should do as the bible says to do . The Bible is bigger than any one man or ministry, when we believe the bible we can do all things. We need to get the knowledge of the word believe what it has to say and leave the leaders out of it. I would say start in Romans and end in Thessalonians and see what we learn just from that . Then after that start a fellowship and teach what you know to everyone
God Bless,
ckmckeon
So come on guys when I got here I really tried to be nice and loving. I changed to defend the honor of my belief. So you really can't sell me on that I was bent on raising hell the moment I got here. Just the oppisite happened, but of course in your twisted mind you have decided to make you own truth.
This is the third greeting I got from GS on my post What Happened to the word
ckm, no offense intended, but "knowledge of the word" is what got everybody in trouble to start with.
"Knowledge of the word"without a relationship with Jesus causes no end of pain and heartache. I think that's why we witnessed the train wreck of the way, inc
By the way this is a matter of fact, proven by man for man. Till next time.
CK
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Weout1200
I just read this thread, so...
Patrick & Sarah...you guys might consider some serious rehab.
I don't know what Way you two belonged to, but the one I was in ('92-'00) was a controlling, lying, self-serving, smug, elitist, cliquish CULT whose managers (damned if I call them leaders) browbeat/intimidated/ran roughshod its followers, sexually assulted followers under the guise (LIE!!!) of service to the man of god, & attempted to insinuate themselves into every facet of their followers lives, regardless of whether or not they had any experience in it. Oh, did I mention how they perversly twisted Gods' Word to suit their own evil?
A cult started by a liar/plagerist/sexual predator who was followed by a liar/frustrated wannabe jock/sexual predator followed by a liar? One where it took a lawsuit (that twi tried their damnest to whitewash, from the number of lawsuits, to "insurance" covering the suits) to open most followers' eyes.
And no, I didn't suffer some of the indignities that some here in the Cafe went through (I guess the worst was them telling my wife she shouldn't marry me because I wasn't a advance class grad...THANK GOD FOR MY HARD HEADED WIFE!!! {DON'T ANYBODY TELL HER I CALLED HER THAT!!!}), but I've seen, heard & read of their evils...
"TWI was great"...My azz!!!
(ckmkeon...no hope for you. You're what my Army D.I referred to as "ate up with the azz")
You 2 need to put down the crack pipe.
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What The Hey
General Grievous: But the loss of Count Dooku?
Darth Sidious: His death was a necessary loss. Soon I will have a new apprentice, one far younger and more powerful.
Anakin Skywalker: Something's happening. I'm not the Jedi I should be. I want more. But I know I shouldn't.
[Later:]
Obi-Wan: You have allowed this Dark Lord to twist your mind until now... until now you have become the very thing you swore to destroy.
Anakin Skywalker: Don't lecture me, Obi-Wan. I see through the lies of the Jedi. I do not fear the dark side as you do. I have brought peace, justice, freedom, and security to my new Empire.
Obi-Wan: Your new Empire?
Anakin Skywalker: Don't make me kill you.
Obi-Wan: Anakin, my allegiance is to the Republic... to democracy!
Anakin Skywalker: If you're not with me, you're my enemy.
Obi-Wan: Only a Sith Lord deals in absolutes. I will do what I must.
Anakin Skywalker: You will try.
[they fight]
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dmiller
I should really start watching tv, or indulging in movies.
I might have a clue (then) as to what you all are talking about!
;) 
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potato
oh it's good, dmiller. it is VERY GOOD!
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What The Hey
What I'm talking about is how a cheesy sci-fi film like Star Wars mimics life: specifically regarding one's perception of good and evil and how one changes their perception whenever power (knowledge) has been/is being denied them.
Consider the dialog between the Chancellor and Anakin for example: [From: Star Wars III: Revenge of the Sith]
Supreme Chancellor: Remember back to your early teachings. "All who gain power are afraid to lose it." Even the Jedi.
Anakin Skywalker: The Jedi use their power for good.
Supreme Chancellor: Good is a point of view, Anakin. The Sith and the Jedi are similar in almost every way, including their quest for greater power.
Anakin Skywalker: The Sith rely on their passion for their strength. They think inward, only about themselves.
Supreme Chancellor: And the Jedi don't?
Anakin Skywalker: The Jedi are selfless... they only care about others.
Supreme Chancellor: Did you ever hear the tragedy of Darth Plagueis "the wise"?
Anakin Skywalker: No.
Supreme Chancellor: I thought not. It's not a story the Jedi would tell you. It's a Sith legend. Darth Plagueis was a Dark Lord of the Sith, so powerful and so wise he could use the Force to influence the midichlorians to create life... He had such a knowledge of the dark side that he could even keep the ones he cared about from dying.
Anakin Skywalker: He could actually save people from death?
Supreme Chancellor: The dark side of the Force is a pathway to many abilities some consider to be unnatural.
Anakin Skywalker: What happened to him?
Supreme Chancellor: He became so powerful... the only thing he was afraid of was losing his power, which eventually, of course, he did. Unfortunately, he taught his apprentice everything he knew, then his apprentice killed him in his sleep. It's ironic. He could save others from death, but not himself.
Anakin Skywalker: Is it possible to learn this power?
Supreme Chancellor: Not from a Jedi.
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WordWolf
[WordWolf responds in boldface.]
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WordWolf
[WordWolf in boldface.]
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Seth R.
Patrick, were you in South Korea around '89? I was supposed to write you and get a twig going. I was stationed at Suwon AB. '89 to '90
Seth
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T-Bone
Your advice sounds very pious and appealing – to people who defend the perpetrators of evil. But as any serious Bible student who intends to obey biblical commands will tell you – you're advising Christians to ignore what Jesus said:
Matthew 7: 15-20
15 Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.
16 Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?
17 Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.
18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.
19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.
But of course you would miss Jesus' teaching on discernment by starting at Romans…It is slightly amusing to see someone who has never met VPW, has a very brief experience with TWI and demonstrates a shallow understanding of Scripture application – come on GSC and declare he's going to "raise hell" with those big guns. It's more like you're trying to raise VPW from the dead…But lest your idol remain idle – let's put it to good use here…by re-interpreting your post according to how I know TWI actually operated [note: the following statement is to be read in a hypnotic sounding monotone for the full effect]:
"I think we should subject ourselves to whatever Dr.Wierwille or LCM say we should do – whether or not it's clearly stated in the Bible."
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Dot Matrix
Do you have any idea how robotic you sound? It is almost frightening.
Here is the thing, if you are here "to face the evil to come" then I must say your responses have helped me to see the evil that is. I am sorry that you are blind, young and easily taken over by evil doctrines. Perhaps, if you get away and get out in life and ask GOD to help you, you may see how pure his love is and how tainted the stuff you have been calling "love" has been.
I will pray for your deliverance for the God you seek is not in the organization presenting him.
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HCW
I think it IS frightening, very frightening, at least to me it is.
Nowadays I wonder, and have for a LOOOOOOOONG time, why it is that people in TWI just can't seem to speak in plain English.
I've long felt that all of the "wayspeak" contributes directly to the individual giving up his free will and willingly giving up control of his mind and subsequently, his life.
I think at one point TWI was "good." Problem is that most all of the "bad stuff" happened simultaneously with the good. People in differing locations and dealing w/differing people simultaneously had VERY different experiences.
Personally, my Mom was VERY skeptical of my involvement w/TWI when I started going to twig in 1974/75.
I had "good" experiences so she made me promise to her, which I did that I would "get out" at the point which I saw it as being "bad."
I saw just how bad it was, from the inside out, when I got canned from TWI staff @ HQ in 1988.
I saw just how bad it IS, from the inside out, when my current job took me to TWI HQ a couple of months ago.
The current TWI minion is SOOOO "far under" that they think they are, figuratively speaking, seeing green when in fact it is very dark black that they are looking at.
At the center of the thing is this crazy Wayspeak thing. There is a subtle difference between conforming "to belong" and conforming under the influence, as in being controlled.
When I see the convoluted speaking patterns, the over use of specific terms, like "our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ." (WHY can't they just say, Jesus? Or The Lord? or something? Why do they ALL say it ALWAYS the SAME way????) When you MUST use the term, and when one finds themselves shackeled to the use of terminology as the average rank & file TWIT is....
You are under their control..... PERIOD.
THAT is freakin SCARY.
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HCW
My personal experience w/ TWI includes, and I'm not so proud to mention this, my "writing off" things that I saw that were definitely NOT "good" and basically ignoring them.
I wrote things off to:
"Well, people are people and nobody's perfect."
Then I switched my position to one who was "fighting for what we knew to be right."
In retrospect I see that all we were really doing was just fighting.
Fighting for a cause by definition requires that there be a cause that is good, just and basically "right."
It gets blurred when one throws in this Biblical truth:
"All the ways of a fool are RIGHT in his own eyes."
You can find that in proverbs, folks if one is so inclined to look for it.
History tells us that all types of folks have fought for all types of causes, some "right" some "wrong." In some ways what is or isn't "right" is a matter of perspective, or a matter of individual perception.
I believe VPW taught a LOT of "right" things. Right as defined as universally "good" for whomever applied the precepts he taught.
I also believe VPW taught a LOT of WRONG things. Wrong as defined as universally detremental for whomever applied the precepts he taught.
Just what was it we were fighting for? Why then, if we were SOOOOO freakin' right, did we "lose?" If GOD be for us WHO can be against us?
As much as at one time I wanted to believe VP was "right" and "good," when I now, at this point in my life w/ a few miles under my belt, some worn tread on the tires of my life. After having had and taken the time to distance myself from the perceptions and perspectives that was & IS TWI... I feel compelled to say, objectively speaking,
TWI was NOT great.
People have good times in prison, locked away for life.
Jeffery Dahlmer was a pretty bright guy.
Charles Manson is one of the most brilliantly persuasive and gifted public speakers one will ever see.
My personal experience w/ TWI was prompted by my attempts to be faithful to my promise I made to my Mom. The promise was based on a Bible teaching, a truth I heard for the first time, after having been raised "in the church," taught by VPW:
Prove ALL things hold fast to the good. TWI, was NOT "good." Its foundation was not based on the desire to be "good." "Good was not what was in the heart of its founder as his reason(s) for starting it. "A house that is built on sand will NOT stand. When the wind and the waves come rushing in it will SURELY fall." ( I think it was Jesus who said that.)
VPW taught me that God is truly real and that He, God, loves me. For that I am eternally grateful and thank God for VPW's teaching me that. That was a GOOD thing.
I also saw VPW, while serving in his position as "the man of God," slurring his words, singing and sloppy drunk at the first HQ staff Christmas party I ever attended as a member of HQ staff. I took pictures of him. His being drunk like that was a BAD thing.
It was universally and wholly bad because the Bible he SAID he gave his life to live and "make his own" clearly said, so simply, "be not drunken...."
I should have walked. Right then, on the spot. BUT. I didn't. I chose to ignore what I KNEW was "wrong" and justify the behavior because of who I THOUGHT he was. Even though I SAW, with my own eyes that VPW was intentionally NOT living as "the man he knew to be."
That, my friends was ME being under the influence. I was under his control. As much as my free thinking self
hates to admit it. I was a FOOL who was being fooled (this is by the Biblical definitions of the same).
I see life much more simply now than I did then. Why? Because I'm FREE from the influence.
I now believe that when I person chooses to use (as in accepting it as a part of himself in the way HE chooses to communicate) any of those freakin' TWIT terminologies he is, as they (TWI) so often put it, "opening himself up" to what I'm calling "the influence." The principal used in the movie industry...
The willing suspension of disbelief.
This is how we believe that an actor is the character he's portraying. This willing suspension of disbelief is why we cry real tears during "Fried Green Tomatoes."
I willingly "suspended my disbelief" when I saw VPW drunk. I should have believed that he was a a hypocrite. In fact I DID. I was appalled and shocked by what I saw. To my credit, I guess, I decided to never just swallow everything he said lock, stock & barrel. Buy now, I realize that that was BS. I was lying to myself. I accepted what he said by NOT walking. I gave his actions my approval by not quitting and contining to FOLLOW him.
This is what happened to us ALL, to varying degrees when we joined TWI.
Oh yes we DID join! Even though there was no "membership" we sure as hell joined it.
TWI. VPW, LCM and now Rosalie & co. took advantage of us. They are criminally taking advantage of the current followers of The Way even as we "speak."
Riddle me this Batman.... Just why is it that people involved in TWI are "followers" when Webster's Dictionary defines their involvement as being "associates."
Big difference between followers & associates.
How come I'm welcome to spend the night at my sisters' homes in PA any time but I'm not allowed to set foot in my sister in Christ Rosalie Rivenbark's house? I thought everthing TWI owned belonged to EVERY believer. Rosalie's just a steward of that really cool, one of a kind custom built home, w/an inground pool in the back yard. (I guess Way Builders couldn't have put in a community sized pool for the rest of the staffers to use back there in the trailer park. I guess there wasn't room on the more than 300 acres to put in a pool for the average Joe Believer who works on staff?)
Well... I digress.
Isn't my sisterhood in Christ, as a member of God's family, a little bit BIGGER and BETTER and a LOT longer lasting than the fact that I shared my Mom's womb w/ my fleshly sisters.
Didn't Jesus say that we should forgive "seven times seventy?" No. He says we should "mark and avoid" our brothers and sisters in Christ who decide they don't want to swear allegiance to Craig.
The problem w/ using the TWIT terminology is that one stops THINKING and starts FOLLOWING. And they sure as hell aint following GOD.
VPW wanted, so desperately, for people to follow HIM. He used the framework of Bible teaching for HIS OWN purposes. That, in my very educated opinion, is how he lived life on the see-saw, good/bad. I was not only there, I actually "been there, done that, and for a long time time it was ME who DESIGNED the T'shirt.
What was in his heart, regardless of ANY and ALL good he did was basically WRONG.
He didn't teach the stuff he taught so we could have personal relationships w/ GOD. He taught what he taught so we could have personal relationships w/ HIM.
VPW wanted, above all else, to be KING. He wanted to live, "in your face" to his detractors. He CREATED the monster we know as LCM, the star of TWI II.
Some of you know far better than I ever could VPW as the monster, the star of TWI I. Some of you know that the times I and others describe as "the good ol' days of TWI" were in fact not so darn "good" after all.
I could go on and on and describe VPW and life @ HQ from a different perspective and prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that King, master & leader was what VPW was after.
He wasn't lying when he said he never wanted to be "the man of God."
"From the HEART flow the issues of life."
He just wanted what he got... to be "king."
Take a look at the history, even the published history of TWI. There is nothing in it like VPW saying, "I always wanted to, and have had for all of my life a burning desire to know God and His word as it hasn't been taught for centuries." What is there is how he got mad at this person, how he disagreed w/the church, how he was a renegade in his youth, how he did this, that and the other thing, "in the face" of the community.
I witnessed probably hundreds of decisions VPW made through the years I was on staff there that I personally felt were, "not the best PR" for the ministry. He was always more like "giving the finger" to folks who said we were a cult, etc. At the time we sorta liked it. It went w/ the general protest everything nature of the times..... BUT.
It was wrong. Why? Chapter & verse. We didn't, as a ministry follow Jesus' edicts chapter & verse. Even when we gave "authorities" the finger, it was like F-U. When Jesus gave "the finger" he was ALWAYS pointing out how it was THEM who had already given GOD their middle finger. Big difference in terms of which side of the fence one is on.
Looking back the 8 years of my life spent on staff @ HQ were the most stifling and frustrating of my ENTIRE career. Even when I was fired by companies w/ lack of morals & ethics, I was actually treated BETTER.
I see clearly now because I'm not looking at things w/ a pre-conceived notion that "this is good." I now see that when I was working @ HQ and felt, "man, doing this is a pain in the rear...." What was actually going on is that they were shoving a huge stick up my foot.
Can anybody tell me the Biblical significance of naming the company's corporate jet parallel to what the President of the US (the most powerful man in the whole freakin' world) calls HIS corporate jet? VPW even had them paint the darn thing thing to look just like the President's plane. He even had the interior done in a similar fashion.
He even had ME design a Founder & President's seal to look like the US President's official seal. They developed official protocals that were the SAME as the the US president's. We even had secret security for VP during major events that was just like the Secret Service.
All this was "necessary." ???
Sure. For the man who wanted to be king.
I think you catch my drift.
I'll close this in honor of the season w/ a reminder that the man born King of angels, God's only begotten son whose birth we celebrate at this time of year....
He never had a corporate camel.
Born in a manger.
Rode on a donkey.
He who was greatest among us was our servant. HE never had a song written to apologize for not living as he should.
He who WAS the man of God. Quite simply,
LIVED LIKE IT.
Undeniably.
Merry Christmas everybody!
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WordWolf
Very nice summaries, there, HCW.
I'd like to note-for those arriving late to this show- that HCW spent a number of years
on-staff, and interacted face-to-face with vpw more than most of the posters here.
(Not all together- but few interacted as much or more.)
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waysider
Thanks,HCW. Coming from someone with your background, that carries a lot of weight.
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ckmkeon
Padme's dying words There still good in him
Luke Skywalker There is good in him I can feel it.
Maybe if you didn't get stuck on episode 3 you might have figured it out.
Episode 6 He turns Good.
CK
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ckmkeon
Matthew 7: 15-20
15 Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.
Yeah I know what you mean I am trying to avoid you all I can. Now I am not saying you are one, no thats what I am trying to tell ya. You are the False Prophet you speak about. These things you talk about are your future.
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Belle
HCW, good to see you! I love it when you drop in with your tidbits of wisdom, observances and thoughts. :)
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rascal
HCW, Thank you for sharing that, for supplying a few more pieces of the puzzle.
It certainly helps in understanding what happened to us and why so much confusion.
*suspended disbelief* about says it all....wow
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