motherof2----------I am probably the worst person in the world to try to help you find things here. There are people,however, who are expert at helping you navigate. The questions you have asked have definite answers and have been discussed at great length here including JCING. I know from experience that family relationships can have a big impact on decisions one makes. Mostly I just wanted to say "welcome" and don't worry about whether something is too controversial.(someone is sure to let you know if you have touched a sore spot)
I for one don't understand why people think Jesus is God? I never had any involvement in church before the Way. The bible clearly says Jesus is the son of God. You will find that the Way had a lot of truth, they just used that truth to manipulate people.
for me, twi stance on Jesus Christ not being God is what attracted me in the beginning. I'd read and talked to devout Christians from many denominations and couldn't reconcile his own teachings with him being the Almighty One. I still can't. I still believe he is who he said he is, the Son of God.
I LOVE hearing a twisted exegesis of John 1:1 trying to prove otherwise.
Hint: Most wayfers have been fed a twisted view of the Trinity. They think that Trinitarians believe that Jesus Christ is God the Father. They'll hang that straw man to the wall and give it a good beating.
This is the kind of thread that properly belongs in the Doctrinal forum down below.. We have trinitarians and NON-trinitarians here both of which used to be TWI members. It kinda' sounds like you aren't really interested in hearing the other side but I'm sure there are those here who are willing to 'splain why they believe as they do. :)
sorry, if i am posting in the wrong forum with the wrong question...dont want to offend anyone like i said..im trying to figure things out here..just wondering if all of vic's ideas have been rejected since they are unique to him..a lot of them. just trying to get a feel of where i am and where people are. i certainly respect everyone here and will be respectful no matter what differences i have. my relatives are very loyal still and i am trying to weed through things...very loyal to VPW and LCM. how? i do not know given what i have read..like i said they claim to have left a long time ago..what they dont say is why they left because they only say loyal things like "i only ever learned the word there" i dont get it...they still do the twig things..and are on a wedsite..believers website..where they are listed as home fellowshippers or something..i just am trying to understand it all..hugs to evryone, motherof2
You will find most if not all you want to know here and much has been put in words already, hang on for a moment or so and the ones that share around here will provide the direction. :)
Welcome motherof2: don't worry about posting in the right or wrong forum right now (the moderators will help sort that out for you) they will move the thread if necessary.........do watch out for the grammar cops and paragraph police though LOL
I never understood how a triune god could exsist, before I was with TWI, during my time with them, and now. But I don't think the idea of "Jesus Christ is not God" originated with VPW. For me at least, my belief that Christ is not God has nothing to do with how I feel about VPW.
I too have family that were in TWI, and have left and "joined" spinter groups, and are loyal to VPW. Some don't know all that happened, some don't believe all that happened, and some know and believe, but feel that what VPW taught is truth, and nothing else matters.
I'm glad you're here, and I hope you get answers to your questions.
motherof2, there are lots of threads on this board that go over vpw's plagerism, which was (pardon the term) ABUNDANT. most of his ideas didn't originate with him at all, he learned them from other teachers of the bible and then passed them off as his own, that he got by revelation from God.
I wandered aimlessly for a few days around here and people were very helpful with pointing me to the right threads. if you do a search on "plagerism" you'll probably turn up some items of interest. there was a thread in the about the way forum about JE Stiles book that I started, there was some interesting feedback to that.
again, this is my first day..but i would like to know if anyone would like to comment on wierwille's "Jesus Christ is not God". who believes that Jesus is God now?
Welcome to Grease Spot, Motherof2. The first cup of Cappuccino is on me…This thread will probably be moved to Doctrinal – but I will give my short answer here: Reading VPW's JCNG after I left TWI I find his handling of Greek words clumsy and his documentation inadequate.
And personally – not sure exactly where I stand on the Jesus is God/not God issue - - but will no longer condemn someone for which side they fall on. I tend to lean towards Him being God – but not God the Father – I don't pretend to understand the Trinity or try to reconcile my beliefs with mainstream Christianity - - or even try to define or articulate exactly how I perceive my Lord. But I'm not too worried about that – I'm not the head of some religious group, or writing books on the subject. I'm more concerned with how to please my Lord – and figure if He was that concerned about the issue He would have made it so clear in the Bible that even a dummy like me could figure it out :) .
I started a thread awhile back in Doctrinal over this issue called,
"With Apologies to Jesus and the Trinity, What's the big deal in the Jesus is God/not God debate?"
I recommend you use the Search feature of GSC. You can look up lots of topics. You'll find there's a broad spectrum of beliefs here at GSC on any given subject. And that's what's great about this place. Freedom to think!
I have had many good friends over the years who think I am completely deluded and they pray for me to believe JC=G (!). This has been from several friends who do not know each other. They do, however, deeply love God and do their best to abide by what he says (as they understand it).
It is fair to say that God has worked bigtime in their lives. You can see it in the blessings in their lives, and how things they pray for do happen (apart from my “conversion”!). They have meekness and tenderness for God in their hearts and are willing to change their minds as they grow in grace. As far as I know, these people pray to God (the Father) and not to God the Son, or God the HS – or they have never actually turned their minds to who or what they are praying to. Or maybe it’s the lot of them??
It is also fair to say that God has worked bigtime in my life and in the lives of others who I know do not believe JC=G. You can see it in the blessings in our lives, and how things we pray for do happen. These people also have meekness and tenderness for God in their hearts and are willing to change their minds as they grow in grace.
From this, the conclusion seems inevitable that to honor God and do one’s best to observe what he says to the best of one’s ability is all that is required. And God is not particularly bothered if we don’t believe correctly about JC – maybe a little miffed, but not enough to refuse to bless his kids. It’s not that big a deal to God or to JC. Perhaps that’s where “grace” covers.
I am pondering this and reading other materials outside of TWI publications. There are some good discussions in Doctrinal.
Don’t have any answers – just know that God looks on the heart and seeks to bless his kids and, heck, we all believe something wrong, none of us has a completely complete knowledge of God.
T-Bone - this kinda ties in with what you said. You were posting while I was writing it:
twinky...well said. i think you are right..we all believe something wrong. and as long as you hava relationship with the Lord., that is what matters. GRACE IS AMAZING. i think i am off to a good start..my biggest issue with my relatives isnt that dont believe in the trinity..its their intolerant behavior towards anything other than what they believe, the lack of holiness in word and deed, and well of course my uncle is a spiritual abuser..fits the desciption of Spiritual wickedness in High Places. controls and dominates and well... abuses all he comes into contact with..he is another LCM waiting to happen..i just want to find out what he is up to..the sighs are there..but i have few facts to go on.
Type the phrase: "Jesus Christ is Not God" into a Internet/Web search engine and you will bring up millions of web pages telling you: "Jesus IS God" and references to the Trinity.
The Internet/Web results: You don't get what you're looking for.
Type the phrase: "Jesus is God" or "the Trinity" into the Find Phrase of any biblical computer program when looking for that phrase in the bible and the results are: 0 - zip - nada - zilch.
The biblical results: You still don't get what you are looking for. :blink:
So ... apparently the answer to the question as to whether Jesus is or isn't God is completely dependent on exactly what it is you are looking for, and precisely where you decide to go looking.
My understanding is that VPW stole the JC is not God doctrine from Lamsa.
VPW was always looking for any doctrine that contradicted mainstream Christianity for two reasons.
One, the rebellious generation (of which I belong to), that he was recruiting, loved anything anti-establishment.
Two, VPW used these doctrines to enslave his people so they couldn’t go any where else but TWI. It works like this, find a doctrine that is contrary to mainstream Christianity, say the mainstream doctrine is a teaching of the devil that will limit the power of God and his willingness to work in your life. Say, only 100% truth is the only thing that will set you free of which you can only get the truth in TWI. Bam, you’re trapped with no where else to go.
Regardless of whether you believe the trinity or not, God will still work in your life and you can manifest His power. I’ve seen Trinitarians and non-Trinitarians manifest God’s power abundantly.
that is a very interesting take on vpw's motives and would certainly explain a lot. in fact, I experienced an occam's razor flash that might just be wishful thinking, but now I will wonder and hope to understand.
Two, VPW used these doctrines to enslave his people so they couldn’t go any where else but TWI. It works like this, find a doctrine that is contrary to mainstream Christianity, say the mainstream doctrine is a teaching of the devil that will limit the power of God and his willingness to work in your life. Say, only 100% truth is the only thing that will set you free of which you can only get the truth in TWI. Bam, you’re trapped with no where else to go.
ohhh, nice statement!
you are exactly righto my friend.
What a sham. That is why it is so hard to talk to ''innies''. They aren't going to ''open their mind'' to anything else out there because it is ''of the devil!"
"again, this is my first day..but i would like to know if anyone would like to comment on wierwille's "Jesus Christ is not God". who believes that Jesus is God now?"
This probably isn't the answer you were looking for, but I'm not sure GOD is GOD.
But I do believe he is our Lord, and in TWI we missed that boat quite a bit.
We were told not to talk to Jesus or pray to him, but how can we have a relationship with him if we can't talk to him or pray to him? I now believe that it's ok to do that in order to develop that relationship.
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GT
We might have to go down and drag all those in the Doctrinal dungeon up here for this.
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waysider
motherof2----------I am probably the worst person in the world to try to help you find things here. There are people,however, who are expert at helping you navigate. The questions you have asked have definite answers and have been discussed at great length here including JCING. I know from experience that family relationships can have a big impact on decisions one makes. Mostly I just wanted to say "welcome" and don't worry about whether something is too controversial.(someone is sure to let you know if you have touched a sore spot)
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coolchef
dear Mother i can answer your question with absolute authority I JUST DON"T KNOW i will just have to wait!!
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polar bear
I for one don't understand why people think Jesus is God? I never had any involvement in church before the Way. The bible clearly says Jesus is the son of God. You will find that the Way had a lot of truth, they just used that truth to manipulate people.
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potato
welcome motherof2.
for me, twi stance on Jesus Christ not being God is what attracted me in the beginning. I'd read and talked to devout Christians from many denominations and couldn't reconcile his own teachings with him being the Almighty One. I still can't. I still believe he is who he said he is, the Son of God.
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TheEvan
I do.
I LOVE hearing a twisted exegesis of John 1:1 trying to prove otherwise.
Hint: Most wayfers have been fed a twisted view of the Trinity. They think that Trinitarians believe that Jesus Christ is God the Father. They'll hang that straw man to the wall and give it a good beating.
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Sudo
Motherof2,
This is the kind of thread that properly belongs in the Doctrinal forum down below.. We have trinitarians and NON-trinitarians here both of which used to be TWI members. It kinda' sounds like you aren't really interested in hearing the other side but I'm sure there are those here who are willing to 'splain why they believe as they do. :)
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dmiller
Docvic published his work JCING, which is far inferior to the CES work
One God and One Lord.
Christianity 101
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motherof2
sorry, if i am posting in the wrong forum with the wrong question...dont want to offend anyone like i said..im trying to figure things out here..just wondering if all of vic's ideas have been rejected since they are unique to him..a lot of them. just trying to get a feel of where i am and where people are. i certainly respect everyone here and will be respectful no matter what differences i have. my relatives are very loyal still and i am trying to weed through things...very loyal to VPW and LCM. how? i do not know given what i have read..like i said they claim to have left a long time ago..what they dont say is why they left because they only say loyal things like "i only ever learned the word there" i dont get it...they still do the twig things..and are on a wedsite..believers website..where they are listed as home fellowshippers or something..i just am trying to understand it all..hugs to evryone, motherof2
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ChattyKathy
You will find most if not all you want to know here and much has been put in words already, hang on for a moment or so and the ones that share around here will provide the direction. :)
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outofdafog
Welcome motherof2: don't worry about posting in the right or wrong forum right now (the moderators will help sort that out for you) they will move the thread if necessary.........do watch out for the grammar cops and paragraph police though
LOL
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VeganXTC
Welcome Mother of 2!
I never understood how a triune god could exsist, before I was with TWI, during my time with them, and now. But I don't think the idea of "Jesus Christ is not God" originated with VPW. For me at least, my belief that Christ is not God has nothing to do with how I feel about VPW.
I too have family that were in TWI, and have left and "joined" spinter groups, and are loyal to VPW. Some don't know all that happened, some don't believe all that happened, and some know and believe, but feel that what VPW taught is truth, and nothing else matters.
I'm glad you're here, and I hope you get answers to your questions.
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potato
motherof2, there are lots of threads on this board that go over vpw's plagerism, which was (pardon the term) ABUNDANT. most of his ideas didn't originate with him at all, he learned them from other teachers of the bible and then passed them off as his own, that he got by revelation from God.
I wandered aimlessly for a few days around here and people were very helpful with pointing me to the right threads. if you do a search on "plagerism" you'll probably turn up some items of interest. there was a thread in the about the way forum about JE Stiles book that I started, there was some interesting feedback to that.
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T-Bone
Welcome to Grease Spot, Motherof2. The first cup of Cappuccino is on me…This thread will probably be moved to Doctrinal – but I will give my short answer here: Reading VPW's JCNG after I left TWI I find his handling of Greek words clumsy and his documentation inadequate.
And personally – not sure exactly where I stand on the Jesus is God/not God issue - - but will no longer condemn someone for which side they fall on. I tend to lean towards Him being God – but not God the Father – I don't pretend to understand the Trinity or try to reconcile my beliefs with mainstream Christianity - - or even try to define or articulate exactly how I perceive my Lord. But I'm not too worried about that – I'm not the head of some religious group, or writing books on the subject. I'm more concerned with how to please my Lord – and figure if He was that concerned about the issue He would have made it so clear in the Bible that even a dummy like me could figure it out :) .
I started a thread awhile back in Doctrinal over this issue called,
"With Apologies to Jesus and the Trinity, What's the big deal in the Jesus is God/not God debate?"
http://www.greasespotcafe.com/ipb/index.ph...st&p=220633
I recommend you use the Search feature of GSC. You can look up lots of topics. You'll find there's a broad spectrum of beliefs here at GSC on any given subject. And that's what's great about this place. Freedom to think!
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Twinky
I never believed JC=G before TWI and I don’t now.
I have had many good friends over the years who think I am completely deluded and they pray for me to believe JC=G (!). This has been from several friends who do not know each other. They do, however, deeply love God and do their best to abide by what he says (as they understand it).
It is fair to say that God has worked bigtime in their lives. You can see it in the blessings in their lives, and how things they pray for do happen (apart from my “conversion”!). They have meekness and tenderness for God in their hearts and are willing to change their minds as they grow in grace. As far as I know, these people pray to God (the Father) and not to God the Son, or God the HS – or they have never actually turned their minds to who or what they are praying to. Or maybe it’s the lot of them??
It is also fair to say that God has worked bigtime in my life and in the lives of others who I know do not believe JC=G. You can see it in the blessings in our lives, and how things we pray for do happen. These people also have meekness and tenderness for God in their hearts and are willing to change their minds as they grow in grace.
From this, the conclusion seems inevitable that to honor God and do one’s best to observe what he says to the best of one’s ability is all that is required. And God is not particularly bothered if we don’t believe correctly about JC – maybe a little miffed, but not enough to refuse to bless his kids. It’s not that big a deal to God or to JC. Perhaps that’s where “grace” covers.
I am pondering this and reading other materials outside of TWI publications. There are some good discussions in Doctrinal.
Don’t have any answers – just know that God looks on the heart and seeks to bless his kids and, heck, we all believe something wrong, none of us has a completely complete knowledge of God.
T-Bone - this kinda ties in with what you said. You were posting while I was writing it:
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motherof2
twinky...well said. i think you are right..we all believe something wrong. and as long as you hava relationship with the Lord., that is what matters. GRACE IS AMAZING. i think i am off to a good start..my biggest issue with my relatives isnt that dont believe in the trinity..its their intolerant behavior towards anything other than what they believe, the lack of holiness in word and deed, and well of course my uncle is a spiritual abuser..fits the desciption of Spiritual wickedness in High Places. controls and dominates and well... abuses all he comes into contact with..he is another LCM waiting to happen..i just want to find out what he is up to..the sighs are there..but i have few facts to go on.
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What The Hey
Here's an interesting fact.
Type the phrase: "Jesus Christ is Not God" into a Internet/Web search engine and you will bring up millions of web pages telling you: "Jesus IS God" and references to the Trinity.
The Internet/Web results: You don't get what you're looking for.
Type the phrase: "Jesus is God" or "the Trinity" into the Find Phrase of any biblical computer program when looking for that phrase in the bible and the results are: 0 - zip - nada - zilch.
The biblical results: You still don't get what you are looking for. :blink:
So ... apparently the answer to the question as to whether Jesus is or isn't God is completely dependent on exactly what it is you are looking for, and precisely where you decide to go looking.
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MountainTopCO
My understanding is that VPW stole the JC is not God doctrine from Lamsa.
VPW was always looking for any doctrine that contradicted mainstream Christianity for two reasons.
One, the rebellious generation (of which I belong to), that he was recruiting, loved anything anti-establishment.
Two, VPW used these doctrines to enslave his people so they couldn’t go any where else but TWI. It works like this, find a doctrine that is contrary to mainstream Christianity, say the mainstream doctrine is a teaching of the devil that will limit the power of God and his willingness to work in your life. Say, only 100% truth is the only thing that will set you free of which you can only get the truth in TWI. Bam, you’re trapped with no where else to go.
Regardless of whether you believe the trinity or not, God will still work in your life and you can manifest His power. I’ve seen Trinitarians and non-Trinitarians manifest God’s power abundantly.
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potato
MountainTopCO,
that is a very interesting take on vpw's motives and would certainly explain a lot. in fact, I experienced an occam's razor flash that might just be wishful thinking, but now I will wonder and hope to understand.
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bliss
ohhh, nice statement!
you are exactly righto my friend.
What a sham. That is why it is so hard to talk to ''innies''. They aren't going to ''open their mind'' to anything else out there because it is ''of the devil!"
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Sushi
"again, this is my first day..but i would like to know if anyone would like to comment on wierwille's "Jesus Christ is not God". who believes that Jesus is God now?"
This probably isn't the answer you were looking for, but I'm not sure GOD is GOD.
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TheEvan
Huh? Well then, who is She?
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Sushi
Abigail, of course, is the goddess. The one my world revolves around, anyways.
(edited to say Abigail, for those unfamiliar)
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outandabout
I don't believe that Jesus is God.
But I do believe he is our Lord, and in TWI we missed that boat quite a bit.
We were told not to talk to Jesus or pray to him, but how can we have a relationship with him if we can't talk to him or pray to him? I now believe that it's ok to do that in order to develop that relationship.
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