dove, I need to point out to you, you didn't join this thread sharing your experiencing and accepting others. your first paragraph assumes that victims don't search the scriptures and comes across as an attack:
"One question? Why did it not occur to anyone to check the scriptures to see if what was being taught was in fact truth. If the earnest desire was and I believe it was to be obedient to God then why did people not do the one basic thing we heard from day one starting in PFAL The Word of God is the Will of God, I don't know of anyone that was around past a coffee break, that was not taught that to find out what God's Will was you needed to search and know the scriptures, that is how you find out "how to be obedient to God". How many gazillion times did we hear The Word of God is Our Only Rule for Faith and Practice. So why was it not? Was It Is Written just a slogan on the wall? Further when common sense caused a HUH? moment in our life, why were we to abandon years of teaching only to accept anything as truth?"
another thing... I had no idea that neutrality toward twi was a requirement for posting here. I hate twi because it's a sham, a broken cistern. its leaders are corrupt. I have no neutrality toward it and maybe I never will. I'm decidedly anti-twi. if it's not a requirement, rascal is entitled to speak negatively toward it if she likes. I can't remember her saying "everyone" experienced what she did, so why do you insist she's trying to speak for anyone except herself and others with similar experiences? I don't feel like she's attempting to speak for me, she just needs to be allowed to have her own voice. hopefully you can accept that a lot of us who were never allowed to speak would really just like to be listened to without being judged and flogged by stupid scriptural platitudes or held to some empty twi expectation that we'll all be so expert in the scriptures that when evil crosses our path we'll be able to always repel it.
one of the popular teachings I remember is that WE are not ignorant of satan's devices. so if a whole group of people is busy practicing evil or just keeping their mouths shut about it, or getting kicked out and lied about because they pointed out satan in our midst, how in the world can we the weaker among us from falling victim to satan's devices?
Rascal I have no more to say I've said several times that if people taught wrongly or treated others wrongly they own that and are accountable for it. I've never disputed that with you.
I don't believe their actions in these isolated cases were due to doctrine. you could have taught them any doctrine you wanted or none at all. They still would be abusers because they have that within them they were abusive people that happened to be in the way they could have been abusive people that happened to be in the Catholic church or the Hari Krishna's. but they didn't they ended up here. They were not abusers because they twisted teachings they twisted teachings because the were abusers. That said I don't think it's fair for you to paint the picture you do with your wide brush.
In the first grade I had an abusive nun for a teacher. Several of us had to stand in the back of the class holding all the things from our desk, because she found a little letter that was used in our spelling cards in the desk. I cleaned my desk as told but it must have been in a book or something and fell out. So off we went for three days no recess standing all day , holding pounds of books if anything dropped during the three days another day for each offence. When I got home that night and my arms were cramping I told my parents why. Needless to say she was sent away - to a crazy house in fact never to return. The doctrine she believed was fine being clean and orderly but she was flawed and used it to be abusive. I don't blame the church for her actions it was not their teaching it was the misuse of that teaching by a flawed person.
Dove - just an observation here - Wouldn't you agree that abusive people thrive when they have no consequences for their abusive behavior?
I seem to remember a quote:
"The only thing necessary for evil to exist is for good men to do nothing."
Perhaps at first the doctrine was sound and there were a few incidences of practical error. BUT, once leaders started to cover for other leders, or fail to take action, then the doctrine changed because it was then widespread practical error.
Yes, this may be after your time - but isn't it even remotely possible that the practical error began with some who came from your time?
Dove - just an observation here - Wouldn't you agree that abusive people thrive when they have not consequences for their abusive behavior?
I seem to remember a quote:
"The only necessary for evil to exist is for good men to do nothing."
Edmund Burke.
Perhaps at first the doctrine was sound and there were a few incidences of practical error. BUT, once leaders started to cover for other leders, or fail to take action, then the doctrine changed because it was then widespread practical error.
Yes, this may be after your time - but isn't it even remotely possible that the practical error began with some who came from your time?
Just trying to see all the angles here.....
vpw himself taught this on several occasions:
"Once people begin to PRACTICE error, after a while, they make a DOCTRINE of it."
He said that practical error, if not corrected, leads to doctrinal error.
dove ithink i see all sides of this topic people were abused by twi noone can deny that many people found salvation and were blessed by twi noone can deny that but here is my but....i have read the phrase on this thread more than once...nobody held a gun to your head....that is not so! ever hear of being brainwashed??? ask the poor disallusioned souls who drank jone's cool aid noone held a gun to thier head either
White Dove, I have really tried to give you the benefit of the doubt. I have likewise really tried to understand your point of view. However, I am getting the distinct impression you are completely unwilling to return the same to anyone who has a point of view which differs from your own.
"What I don't like is the constant doctrinal rant that life in the way was abuse, rape torture, misery, pain, and anything else nasty that you can think of."
How do you know it wasn't for some?? Certainly it wasn't for all, no one has disputed that fact. Quite obviously it wasn't for you, your family, your friends (at least from what you see from the outside - no one knows what goes on behind closed doors except those behind them.) Likewise, it most certainly was that way for some. Oh no, it didn't start out that way. My first 5 years in were wonderful. I learned a lot and I was healed from a lot. But the last 5 were night and day different from the first.
Perhaps she has some unresolved issue that causes her to only see bad I don't know. We probably are the extremes in the mix with the truth somewhere in the middle. I never said that everyone's experience was a good one., but I can't support the view that all there was is abuse, rape, torture , and misery. I know too many that did not have that experience.
Perhaps she does. Perhaps I do. Perhaps a number of people here do. Do you think you are helping them or hurting them on this thread? Do you care if you help them? Do you care if you hurt them? I don't think anyone here has said "that all there was is abuse, rape, and toruture." Obviously, if that were true most would never have joined and certainly would not have stayed. It started out great for most of us, I would bet money on that. Most of us have happy memories mixed in with the bad ones. But we paid one HELL of a price for the good we received.
We don't need to resolve, work through, vent about, or be healed from our good experiences, hence we don't talk about them as often. That doesn't mean we didn't have them. But what many of us NEED to talk about, so that we can resolve, work through, vent, and be healed from are our bad experiences, hence we DO talk about them often. Is that really so difficult to understand?
"I'm willing to accept the bad I ask that others except the good. "
I think you might need to define what the good is here, Dove. Is the good the friends we made? The love we felt from others and for others? The doctrine? And if you primarily mean the latter, well some do and will acccept it as good, many will not. I think there was some good, sound doctrine. I also think there was some very bad doctrine that opened the door for a lot of abuse and hurt. Does that mean I don't accept the good?
"those with axes to grind tend to congregate here "
Why do you suppose that is? Do you think their "axes" are invalid? Do you think all of us are making it all up? That we are simply holding a grudge and making up lies for revenge?
"I'll always push for the fair and balanced view. It's a tough job but somebody's got to do it."
Why? Why does somebody have to do it? Why does it have to be done on this thread? Why can't you start another thread for fair and balanced and leave this one (and others like it) to those who need to voice their experience, their pain? And HOW can you push for fair and balanced about someone else's experience? Did you receive revelation on that?
All that I asked was to see each for what they are and as Abigail mentioned consider that maybe in all instances it was not doctrine that made these people do what they did, they may have just been that way regardless of where they ended up.
Yes, I did say something akin to that. BUT, while I do believe these people would have done it regardless of where they ended up, the fact is they ended up in TWI. The fact is, they used the doctrine taught by TWI to further their agenda of abuse. The fact is, no one with real leadership authority stood up and tried to put a stop to it. Many of the lower level people did. Even some in the corps did. They were silenced. They were marked and avoided. The rest of the people were told they were possessed and to stay away from them. However, those with the real power, those in the real positions of authority within the Way Tree (and there were a number of people in those positions who did know what was going on) did not try to stop it. At best, they tried to cover it up, not correct it.
So yeah, it is the doctrine, along with the abuse it was used to further, that is ripped apart here. It only makes sense it would be, if you really think about out. How do we undo the wrong teaching received, if not by talking about it.
See, I was taught what the title of this thread says. Paul went to Jerusalem and the others followed their leader even though they knew he made the wrong decision. That is what I was taught. Martindale taught it from the pulpit. Now maybe that isn't what VPW taught you. Maybe that isn't what you experienced. Fine. I can accept that. VPW was long dead and gone before I ever joined TWI. But it IS what I, and many others here were taught and experienced.
"I said own your choices and move on, don't blame someone or something else for your choices in "
I have owned my choices. I have paid the price for them, I have learned from them, and I have moved on. Hell, I rarely even post in this forum anymore. However, that does NOT mean I don't hold other's accountable for the role they played in the choices I made. For the pressure they put on me. For the abuses they committed against me. For cussing me out, humiliating me in front of others, making unreasonable demands, trying (and damned near succeeding ) to convince me I would die if I left TWI, etc.
Greasespot, in addition to giving us a place to vent and work through our experiences, also gives those in and wanting out a place to go - to realize they are not alone. To realize that what some of them have experienced or are currently experiencing isn't/didn't just happen to them. That there is a way out. That there is a place where they can go and talk about what is happening to them.
" I can't remember the last time you even spoke somethiong neutral about the Way much less favorable."
So what? Maybe she has and you missed it. Maybe she talks about the "good times" when she is roasting weenies over a campfire with Greasespot friends. Maybe she never talks about good times because she just isn't there yet. Or maybe she doesn't talk about good times because she simply wants those who have had similar experiences to know they are not alone.
" I can't remember the last time you even spoke somethiong neutral about the Way much less favorable. . . . . I have family that lived there for a number of years they are fine no one is beaten, scared"
Praise God for that Dove. I shared my experience regarding a couple from Rome City with you. But the point is, just because your family and friends made it out whole, doesn't mean everyone did. I would say that might be especially true for those who were there in the 90s.
"If you want to discuss 90s events fine I can't speak to that , but don't try to tell me what I or others experianced in other years was not real"
Did someone do that? Because if so, I missed it.
You say you are trying to be fair and balanced, I take your word for that. However, that is not how you are coming across. Perhaps that is simply because this is the internet and there are no facial expressions or voice tones to go with your message. But in any case, for whatever reason, you are coming across as rather harsh and judgmental.
My views have broadened because my understanding has since walking into freedom. It just took me awhile to get to this point and I have quite a bit to go.
I was able to begin my journey here. With many words as those who have been around for awhile know. Had I not had that it would have made my recovery more difficult. There are ones here who can testify to having done it alone because they didn't have an option.
How quickly or slowly we make it is not mine to say for a person although I have certainly assumed me to know more than once. But the healthier I get the more I know each person houses so much more than anyone will ever know of, and how long it takes is not mine to even speak.
But I do know these facts:
1) No man has the right to tell a woman to abort a living soul!
2) Abused women, especially from babes are predisposed, and the sob's knew it and used it!
I've read snippets of his thread (not the entire thing), and while considering the title of the thread --
I have to agree. With twi -- it has always been God to so-and-so, to so-and-so,
to so-and-so, finally wafting *God's* knowledge down to YOU.
Nother words -- you had to stand in line, and WAIT for *leadership* to tell you
what God told Jesus, to tell their leader, to tell them to tell you.
NUTS TO THAT. What the hey ever happened to the God in the book of Acts
who dealt with believers on a personal basis, daily??
So now twi enters the picture --with all the classes, programs, elite nametags, etc.
The Pogrom (scuze me -- Program) that docvic and twi set up was the proverbial thumb over the head.
We walked in with eyes wide open. For those of us that walked out, our eyes were even more wide open.
But make no mistake about it -- once *in* we were subjected to the rules and regs of the org.
If we chose to *fellowship with the one body*, we had to toe the line.
Accept what came down the pike from hdqtrs, no questions asked.
Sorry Dove -- but I have to agree with the basic premise here
that a *spiritual* gun was held to our heads.
It seems eminantly clear (to me) that if you didn't measure up --
you were kicked out, M & A'd, whatever you want to call it.
I was 23 when I first took the class. I was 35 (or so) when I got out. While I chose to *fellowship* with twi, it became increasingly evident that they were making more and more demands on my life, that were exceding the boundaries of sanity.
Sure -- I chose to stay *in* for the time I did.
But while I was *in* -- they called the shots, not I.
Have any of you noticed that those who say either:
- there was never widespread sexual abuse of women in twi
or
- the women who were sexually abused asked for it (therefore it wasn't abuse)
or
- the women who were sexually abused were actually wimps and should have shown some courage
or some other permutation of the above (either directly or by implication)
are, in the vast majority of the cases, men?
I find not a little irony in that...
...am I the only one who sees that as a bit ironic?
Good observation, Mark. Just to clarify - because all sorts of things get read into words like this - THIS STATEMENT DOES NOT SAY that you are accusing WhiteDove of anything.
I know this - but I can just see how this can become a powder keg even though you had no intention of causing a firestorm....
Actually, most of the ones I have heard of who said those words were leaders in twi, vice posters here.
There have been several who said those things here...my observation is NOT just about one particular poster or another.
It is just a general observation...
mine is general as well.
it's quit possible that men in general had a better experience in twi and there's a few who simply cannot reconcile the idea of rape and leadership-mandated abuse or spiritual corruption in those who plagerized and lied with what they saw through their rosy-colored glasses.
after all, people got saved.
I'm just not sure there was a justifiable end to justify their means.
Ya know, I've been trying to remember why I did stay around. <_<
I was turned off at all the control and "formality" expected of us the first time I took the class. The home we were at was built specifically to be able to run large classes. They even had a "sound room" where they could control all the speakers, tvs and lighting in the whole house. The house was wired specifically so that all could be synchronized. I thought that was weird.
The host couple was so formal, aloof and distant that I felt like I was intruding every time I went to class and I actually dreaded going, but I wanted to "see" the class I had only heard on audio cassettes once.
Things only got more controlling from there and I did come and go quite frequently. I would disappear for months at a time and I enjoyed life much more during those times....so why did I go back every time they called? I dunno, but it wasn't because things were butterflies and rainbows when I was involved with them.
I bawled my eyes out during the entire time of my bridal shower. That's NOT normal. I had panic attacks for months before hand and even worse afterwards, but didn't realize at the time that's what it was. Dottie did. She said it was stress, but didn't help or offer any helpful suggestions. It was more than stress, but since admitting that I had stress would be negative believing, I dismissed it.
Nope, I can't say I had that many good times in TWI. Honestly. There were some, of course, but the bad memories overwhelmingly outweigh the good ones. If I only talk about the bad ones, what's it to any of you? Who are you, the posting police? Why does it make you mad when people share that they had bad times? Why do you care if they don't talk about the good times?
There are lots of posts o here about "the good ole days" and I really enjoy reading them. In fact, someone sent me some of the music from those days and it's awesome music. Someone else sent me the Cheech & Chong stuff y'all were laughing about on a thread. I'm truly thankful for that and it helps me in ways you can't imagine to hear these things and to realize that there was so much good at one time. TWI would have never happened the way it did if there wasn't some good entangled with all the abuse and if there weren't some people sheltered from all the ugliness.
I don't come on to those threads about the good things and say, "come on, y'all! It wasn't ALL good! How can you talk about the good times when there are people who had their lives destroyed while involved with TWI?" Yet the threads on abuse are frequently derailed by personal attacks and attacks on the people who were abused, mistreated and, yes, driven to the brink of death. Is that loving and productive? I think not. <_<
Hmm, I guess that I didn`t understand that posting in a way that places twi in a positive light....was a pre requisit to expressing opinions here...shrug No wonder I am such an irritant... :blink:
As a recap, So far nobody has denied that this teaching was widely taught in twi.
I don`t think that anybody has denied that this particular teaching was used to force people into actions contrary to that which they desired.
Kit Sober made a brilliant observation about *card board* Chrisitians in the doctrinal section.
I will ask her permission to post it up here.
She has a great point about why some of the folks in twi might have remained unselfish and untarnished by doctrine, while others used twi doctrine as a license to sin.
She talked about knowledge of scripture without the movement of Holy Spirit in ones life.
One question? Why did it not occur to anyone to check the scriptures to see if what was being taught was in fact truth
one answer..... the mog of all mogs would never do anything against the scriptures
So mistakes were made move on quit making everyone else responsible for our failure to do what we were taught.
what were we taught ? i have moved on. OUR failure ? to do what WE were taught ? what were YOU taught on the bus ????
It's pretty simple I make mistakes every day but I wont blame someone else for my mistake. If they taught me wrongly that's their mistake to own not mine, I still have the choice to look for myself to see if what they said was in fact true.
what ???? ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha h ah
I believe we were taught that revelation will never be at cross instruction of what the scriptures say. Excepting someone's word without checking the scriptures is unscriptural and I would not be afraid to call someone on it.
ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha you better tell that to the good doctor !!!!!!!!
sowwy this thread is too tiresome
when it comes to "twi" and offshoots and teachers and leaders, i just have to say
BARF
you don't get it
your whole premise is false (in my humble opinion)
you were taught wrongly (in my humble opinion)
so everything you say holds no weight (in my humble opinion)
Second I was married to a 3rd family Corps grad who lived at Rome City for many years. My step son Victor yes named after Dr Wierwille was a mini Corps there also for three years. My wife on occasion cut VPW hair and gave him manicures he knew Victor from his birth. His father was on staff there as well for many years. So I do have some idea what went on there. Victor spent summers there even after we had left the Way into the 90s.
we did get derailed into discussion about whether people had the right to remember experiencing their time with twi as "bad" instead of being required to give a fair and balanced view.
so, back to topic, I'm so glad to have been healed in this category so I can tell leadership to stick it! I don't even have to go search the scriptures!! nya-nya-nya, BOT et al.
Recommended Posts
Top Posters In This Topic
23
10
22
17
Popular Days
Nov 29
41
Dec 2
32
Nov 30
28
Dec 3
13
Top Posters In This Topic
rascal 23 posts
Dot Matrix 10 posts
WhiteDove 22 posts
potato 17 posts
Popular Days
Nov 29 2006
41 posts
Dec 2 2006
32 posts
Nov 30 2006
28 posts
Dec 3 2006
13 posts
potato
dove, I need to point out to you, you didn't join this thread sharing your experiencing and accepting others. your first paragraph assumes that victims don't search the scriptures and comes across as an attack:
"One question? Why did it not occur to anyone to check the scriptures to see if what was being taught was in fact truth. If the earnest desire was and I believe it was to be obedient to God then why did people not do the one basic thing we heard from day one starting in PFAL The Word of God is the Will of God, I don't know of anyone that was around past a coffee break, that was not taught that to find out what God's Will was you needed to search and know the scriptures, that is how you find out "how to be obedient to God". How many gazillion times did we hear The Word of God is Our Only Rule for Faith and Practice. So why was it not? Was It Is Written just a slogan on the wall? Further when common sense caused a HUH? moment in our life, why were we to abandon years of teaching only to accept anything as truth?"
another thing... I had no idea that neutrality toward twi was a requirement for posting here. I hate twi because it's a sham, a broken cistern. its leaders are corrupt. I have no neutrality toward it and maybe I never will. I'm decidedly anti-twi. if it's not a requirement, rascal is entitled to speak negatively toward it if she likes. I can't remember her saying "everyone" experienced what she did, so why do you insist she's trying to speak for anyone except herself and others with similar experiences? I don't feel like she's attempting to speak for me, she just needs to be allowed to have her own voice. hopefully you can accept that a lot of us who were never allowed to speak would really just like to be listened to without being judged and flogged by stupid scriptural platitudes or held to some empty twi expectation that we'll all be so expert in the scriptures that when evil crosses our path we'll be able to always repel it.
one of the popular teachings I remember is that WE are not ignorant of satan's devices. so if a whole group of people is busy practicing evil or just keeping their mouths shut about it, or getting kicked out and lied about because they pointed out satan in our midst, how in the world can we the weaker among us from falling victim to satan's devices?
good heavens.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
doojable
Dove - just an observation here - Wouldn't you agree that abusive people thrive when they have no consequences for their abusive behavior?
I seem to remember a quote:
"The only thing necessary for evil to exist is for good men to do nothing."
Perhaps at first the doctrine was sound and there were a few incidences of practical error. BUT, once leaders started to cover for other leders, or fail to take action, then the doctrine changed because it was then widespread practical error.
Yes, this may be after your time - but isn't it even remotely possible that the practical error began with some who came from your time?
Just trying to see all the angles here.....
Edited by doojableLink to comment
Share on other sites
WordWolf
Edmund Burke.
vpw himself taught this on several occasions:
"Once people begin to PRACTICE error, after a while, they make a DOCTRINE of it."
He said that practical error, if not corrected, leads to doctrinal error.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
doojable
Thank you WW -
(I took the liberty of fixing my typos after reading my last post.)
Edited by doojableLink to comment
Share on other sites
coolchef
dove ithink i see all sides of this topic people were abused by twi noone can deny that many people found salvation and were blessed by twi noone can deny that but here is my but....i have read the phrase on this thread more than once...nobody held a gun to your head....that is not so! ever hear of being brainwashed??? ask the poor disallusioned souls who drank jone's cool aid noone held a gun to thier head either
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Abigail
White Dove, I have really tried to give you the benefit of the doubt. I have likewise really tried to understand your point of view. However, I am getting the distinct impression you are completely unwilling to return the same to anyone who has a point of view which differs from your own.
"What I don't like is the constant doctrinal rant that life in the way was abuse, rape torture, misery, pain, and anything else nasty that you can think of."
How do you know it wasn't for some?? Certainly it wasn't for all, no one has disputed that fact. Quite obviously it wasn't for you, your family, your friends (at least from what you see from the outside - no one knows what goes on behind closed doors except those behind them.) Likewise, it most certainly was that way for some. Oh no, it didn't start out that way. My first 5 years in were wonderful. I learned a lot and I was healed from a lot. But the last 5 were night and day different from the first.
Perhaps she has some unresolved issue that causes her to only see bad I don't know. We probably are the extremes in the mix with the truth somewhere in the middle. I never said that everyone's experience was a good one., but I can't support the view that all there was is abuse, rape, torture , and misery. I know too many that did not have that experience.
Perhaps she does. Perhaps I do. Perhaps a number of people here do. Do you think you are helping them or hurting them on this thread? Do you care if you help them? Do you care if you hurt them? I don't think anyone here has said "that all there was is abuse, rape, and toruture." Obviously, if that were true most would never have joined and certainly would not have stayed. It started out great for most of us, I would bet money on that. Most of us have happy memories mixed in with the bad ones. But we paid one HELL of a price for the good we received.
We don't need to resolve, work through, vent about, or be healed from our good experiences, hence we don't talk about them as often. That doesn't mean we didn't have them. But what many of us NEED to talk about, so that we can resolve, work through, vent, and be healed from are our bad experiences, hence we DO talk about them often. Is that really so difficult to understand?
"I'm willing to accept the bad I ask that others except the good. "
I think you might need to define what the good is here, Dove. Is the good the friends we made? The love we felt from others and for others? The doctrine? And if you primarily mean the latter, well some do and will acccept it as good, many will not. I think there was some good, sound doctrine. I also think there was some very bad doctrine that opened the door for a lot of abuse and hurt. Does that mean I don't accept the good?
"those with axes to grind tend to congregate here "
Why do you suppose that is? Do you think their "axes" are invalid? Do you think all of us are making it all up? That we are simply holding a grudge and making up lies for revenge?
"I'll always push for the fair and balanced view. It's a tough job but somebody's got to do it."
Why? Why does somebody have to do it? Why does it have to be done on this thread? Why can't you start another thread for fair and balanced and leave this one (and others like it) to those who need to voice their experience, their pain? And HOW can you push for fair and balanced about someone else's experience? Did you receive revelation on that?
All that I asked was to see each for what they are and as Abigail mentioned consider that maybe in all instances it was not doctrine that made these people do what they did, they may have just been that way regardless of where they ended up.
Yes, I did say something akin to that. BUT, while I do believe these people would have done it regardless of where they ended up, the fact is they ended up in TWI. The fact is, they used the doctrine taught by TWI to further their agenda of abuse. The fact is, no one with real leadership authority stood up and tried to put a stop to it. Many of the lower level people did. Even some in the corps did. They were silenced. They were marked and avoided. The rest of the people were told they were possessed and to stay away from them. However, those with the real power, those in the real positions of authority within the Way Tree (and there were a number of people in those positions who did know what was going on) did not try to stop it. At best, they tried to cover it up, not correct it.
So yeah, it is the doctrine, along with the abuse it was used to further, that is ripped apart here. It only makes sense it would be, if you really think about out. How do we undo the wrong teaching received, if not by talking about it.
See, I was taught what the title of this thread says. Paul went to Jerusalem and the others followed their leader even though they knew he made the wrong decision. That is what I was taught. Martindale taught it from the pulpit. Now maybe that isn't what VPW taught you. Maybe that isn't what you experienced. Fine. I can accept that. VPW was long dead and gone before I ever joined TWI. But it IS what I, and many others here were taught and experienced.
"I said own your choices and move on, don't blame someone or something else for your choices in "
I have owned my choices. I have paid the price for them, I have learned from them, and I have moved on. Hell, I rarely even post in this forum anymore. However, that does NOT mean I don't hold other's accountable for the role they played in the choices I made. For the pressure they put on me. For the abuses they committed against me. For cussing me out, humiliating me in front of others, making unreasonable demands, trying (and damned near succeeding ) to convince me I would die if I left TWI, etc.
Greasespot, in addition to giving us a place to vent and work through our experiences, also gives those in and wanting out a place to go - to realize they are not alone. To realize that what some of them have experienced or are currently experiencing isn't/didn't just happen to them. That there is a way out. That there is a place where they can go and talk about what is happening to them.
" I can't remember the last time you even spoke somethiong neutral about the Way much less favorable."
So what? Maybe she has and you missed it. Maybe she talks about the "good times" when she is roasting weenies over a campfire with Greasespot friends. Maybe she never talks about good times because she just isn't there yet. Or maybe she doesn't talk about good times because she simply wants those who have had similar experiences to know they are not alone.
" I can't remember the last time you even spoke somethiong neutral about the Way much less favorable. . . . . I have family that lived there for a number of years they are fine no one is beaten, scared"
Praise God for that Dove. I shared my experience regarding a couple from Rome City with you. But the point is, just because your family and friends made it out whole, doesn't mean everyone did. I would say that might be especially true for those who were there in the 90s.
"If you want to discuss 90s events fine I can't speak to that , but don't try to tell me what I or others experianced in other years was not real"
Did someone do that? Because if so, I missed it.
You say you are trying to be fair and balanced, I take your word for that. However, that is not how you are coming across. Perhaps that is simply because this is the internet and there are no facial expressions or voice tones to go with your message. But in any case, for whatever reason, you are coming across as rather harsh and judgmental.
Edited by AbigailLink to comment
Share on other sites
ChattyKathy
My views have broadened because my understanding has since walking into freedom. It just took me awhile to get to this point and I have quite a bit to go.
I was able to begin my journey here. With many words as those who have been around for awhile know. Had I not had that it would have made my recovery more difficult. There are ones here who can testify to having done it alone because they didn't have an option.
How quickly or slowly we make it is not mine to say for a person although I have certainly assumed me to know more than once. But the healthier I get the more I know each person houses so much more than anyone will ever know of, and how long it takes is not mine to even speak.
But I do know these facts:
1) No man has the right to tell a woman to abort a living soul!
2) Abused women, especially from babes are predisposed, and the sob's knew it and used it!
Link to comment
Share on other sites
markomalley
Have any of you noticed that those who say either:
- there was never widespread sexual abuse of women in twi
or
- the women who were sexually abused asked for it (therefore it wasn't abuse)
or
- the women who were sexually abused were actually wimps and should have shown some courage
or some other permutation of the above (either directly or by implication)
are, in the vast majority of the cases, men?
I find not a little irony in that...
...am I the only one who sees that as a bit ironic?
Link to comment
Share on other sites
potato
mark, I noticed and refrained from pointing fingers although it's getting more difficult :blink:
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Shellon
Thank you!!
Link to comment
Share on other sites
dmiller
I've read snippets of his thread (not the entire thing), and while considering the title of the thread --
I have to agree. With twi -- it has always been God to so-and-so, to so-and-so,
to so-and-so, finally wafting *God's* knowledge down to YOU.
Nother words -- you had to stand in line, and WAIT for *leadership* to tell you
what God told Jesus, to tell their leader, to tell them to tell you.
NUTS TO THAT. What the hey ever happened to the God in the book of Acts
who dealt with believers on a personal basis, daily??
So now twi enters the picture --with all the classes, programs, elite nametags, etc.
The Pogrom (scuze me -- Program) that docvic and twi set up was the proverbial thumb over the head.
We walked in with eyes wide open. For those of us that walked out, our eyes were even more wide open.
But make no mistake about it -- once *in* we were subjected to the rules and regs of the org.
If we chose to *fellowship with the one body*, we had to toe the line.
Accept what came down the pike from hdqtrs, no questions asked.
Sorry Dove -- but I have to agree with the basic premise here
that a *spiritual* gun was held to our heads.
It seems eminantly clear (to me) that if you didn't measure up --
you were kicked out, M & A'd, whatever you want to call it.
I was 23 when I first took the class. I was 35 (or so) when I got out. While I chose to *fellowship* with twi, it became increasingly evident that they were making more and more demands on my life, that were exceding the boundaries of sanity.
Sure -- I chose to stay *in* for the time I did.
But while I was *in* -- they called the shots, not I.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
doojable
Good observation, Mark. Just to clarify - because all sorts of things get read into words like this - THIS STATEMENT DOES NOT SAY that you are accusing WhiteDove of anything.
I know this - but I can just see how this can become a powder keg even though you had no intention of causing a firestorm....
I can just see how this can explode ,,
Edited by doojableLink to comment
Share on other sites
markomalley
Actually, most of the ones I have heard of who said those words were leaders in twi, vice posters here.
There have been several who said those things here...my observation is NOT just about one particular poster or another.
It is just a general observation...
Link to comment
Share on other sites
ChattyKathy
Thank you Mr. O'Malley.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
potato
mine is general as well.
it's quit possible that men in general had a better experience in twi and there's a few who simply cannot reconcile the idea of rape and leadership-mandated abuse or spiritual corruption in those who plagerized and lied with what they saw through their rosy-colored glasses.
after all, people got saved.
I'm just not sure there was a justifiable end to justify their means.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
markomalley
Well, now, that is an interesting question.
Did people get saved as a result of TWI?
or
Did people in TWI get saved in spite of TWI?
You're welcome...
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Belle
Ya know, I've been trying to remember why I did stay around. <_<
I was turned off at all the control and "formality" expected of us the first time I took the class. The home we were at was built specifically to be able to run large classes. They even had a "sound room" where they could control all the speakers, tvs and lighting in the whole house. The house was wired specifically so that all could be synchronized. I thought that was weird.
The host couple was so formal, aloof and distant that I felt like I was intruding every time I went to class and I actually dreaded going, but I wanted to "see" the class I had only heard on audio cassettes once.
Things only got more controlling from there and I did come and go quite frequently. I would disappear for months at a time and I enjoyed life much more during those times....so why did I go back every time they called?
I dunno, but it wasn't because things were butterflies and rainbows when I was involved with them.
I bawled my eyes out during the entire time of my bridal shower. That's NOT normal. I had panic attacks for months before hand and even worse afterwards, but didn't realize at the time that's what it was. Dottie did. She said it was stress, but didn't help or offer any helpful suggestions. It was more than stress, but since admitting that I had stress would be negative believing, I dismissed it.
Nope, I can't say I had that many good times in TWI. Honestly. There were some, of course, but the bad memories overwhelmingly outweigh the good ones. If I only talk about the bad ones, what's it to any of you? Who are you, the posting police? Why does it make you mad when people share that they had bad times? Why do you care if they don't talk about the good times?
There are lots of posts o here about "the good ole days" and I really enjoy reading them. In fact, someone sent me some of the music from those days and it's awesome music. Someone else sent me the Cheech & Chong stuff y'all were laughing about on a thread. I'm truly thankful for that and it helps me in ways you can't imagine to hear these things and to realize that there was so much good at one time. TWI would have never happened the way it did if there wasn't some good entangled with all the abuse and if there weren't some people sheltered from all the ugliness.
I don't come on to those threads about the good things and say, "come on, y'all! It wasn't ALL good! How can you talk about the good times when there are people who had their lives destroyed while involved with TWI?" Yet the threads on abuse are frequently derailed by personal attacks and attacks on the people who were abused, mistreated and, yes, driven to the brink of death. Is that loving and productive? I think not. <_<
Link to comment
Share on other sites
rascal
Hmm, I guess that I didn`t understand that posting in a way that places twi in a positive light....was a pre requisit to expressing opinions here...shrug No wonder I am such an irritant... :blink:
As a recap, So far nobody has denied that this teaching was widely taught in twi.
I don`t think that anybody has denied that this particular teaching was used to force people into actions contrary to that which they desired.
Kit Sober made a brilliant observation about *card board* Chrisitians in the doctrinal section.
I will ask her permission to post it up here.
She has a great point about why some of the folks in twi might have remained unselfish and untarnished by doctrine, while others used twi doctrine as a license to sin.
She talked about knowledge of scripture without the movement of Holy Spirit in ones life.
It was a brilliant observation imo....
Edited by rascalLink to comment
Share on other sites
potato
rascal, careful lest ye be attacked again.
the requirement seems to be not that you are positive, but that you are neutral.
good thing, too, because all that would leave you is the twi myspace group.
however, I say phooey to neutrality. I'm not neutral about my life and I don't work for fox news.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
excathedra
sowwy this thread is too tiresome
when it comes to "twi" and offshoots and teachers and leaders, i just have to say
BARF
you don't get it
your whole premise is false (in my humble opinion)
you were taught wrongly (in my humble opinion)
so everything you say holds no weight (in my humble opinion)
Link to comment
Share on other sites
excathedra
i'm really sorry but who cares ?
that does not negate anyone else's experiences
Link to comment
Share on other sites
doojable
The basic premise of this thread is still that "It is impossible to obey God without first obeying leadership." - as it was taught.
Personally, that would have offended me and no matter who taught it I would have rejected the teaching - and I was considered leadership!
There are too many incidences where a person goes against a leader only to do God's will... young King David comes to mind.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
excathedra
Link to comment
Share on other sites
potato
thanks for the reminder, dooj.
we did get derailed into discussion about whether people had the right to remember experiencing their time with twi as "bad" instead of being required to give a fair and balanced view.
so, back to topic, I'm so glad to have been healed in this category so I can tell leadership to stick it! I don't even have to go search the scriptures!! nya-nya-nya, BOT et al.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.