Good thread, Bliss!...In my humble opinion I think TWI [whether intentional or not] just formulated these laws and rules in order to anoint themselves as an invisible priesthood. Their office of priesthood is invisible to followers – in that followers are not aware that these rites and ceremonies – rules and laws – separate them and God – like the curtain in the Temple. The TWI-priests declare and interpret the laws of their god, judge followers’ responses to these laws and grant access into a fictitious throne room for the obedient ones.
…Funny – thinking about the chapter Are you limiting God in the VPW’s Blue Book. I think TWI has that down pat – limiting God that is…God can’t talk to human brain cells, huh? Guess He had no problem with Balaam’s donkey brain cells :blink: .
Not only do I not believe it's a law, I simply don't believe it's true. TWI also taught SIT much was crucial to receiving revelation. I have cited on previous posts, incidents where I believe God spoke to people. In these examples, the parties involved either had limited experience with SIT or none at all. In fact, where does it state that the new birth is an absolute necessity? Consider this scenario:You share The Word regarding new birth with someone who is a natural man. They, of course, can't understand what you are talking about since (according to TWI) natural man can't understand anything of a spiritual nature. OOPS! I guess their fate has been sealed. Sure, I know that the scriptures say natural man can't understand spiritual matters but does that mean God can't find a way to talk to whomever He chooses?( slight digression, but Temple Lady pointed out to me that it is more a matter of our hearing than of God speaking.I believe she is correct) TWI was obsessed with laws alright but not the immutable variety that are beneficial to those who keep them.
Just a thought... I'm a human being. I have a cat. My cat understands me when I call her (whether she obeys is another matter). She also makes an assortment of noises at me and I know what they mean.
Lots of people have dogs. Dogs appear understand instructions, ie human words, better than cats. People understand their dogs' yips, yaps, growls, whines, etc also.
I don't speak cat-ese or dog-ese. But we understand each other.
Without going all "natural realm" or "spiritual realm" - ain't we talking about completely different things communicating perfectly adequately?
Sure God can speak to natural man. He can do this directly, or indirectly by means of his book. Has to be true - else how could we mere humans *ever* know?
Added note: TWI says we can't know God by the five senses. What other avenues do we really have?When we witness a baby being born, when we hear its' first cry, when we feel the warmth of the morning sun on our faces,when we share a heartfelt embrace in times of pain or joy or taste the sweetness of freshly picked fruit or ,like one poster has noted, smell that incomparable aroma of a newborns' head, are we not using our five senses to commune with what God has wrought? Just some food for thought.
I mean there are many many examples in the Bible to refute that claim. Take Paul for example, he converted after Pentacost and was on a hunt for Christians to torture and kill them when Jesus appeared to him and spoke to him (two sences involved). While I obviously question the verasity of that story and how it fits in the context of the Bible and God's fairness and a number of other things, it is how they view the Bible and that "law" you quoted doesn't jive with their own view of the Bible.
Why then would they say such a thing?
Perhaps to sell more classes. You need to get to the Advanced class to really understand all that spiritual stuff and the "revelation and impartation" manifestations.
Yes, Lindy, that is VERBATUM! (sp?) Nothing surprising though, Craig has taught that for years. I've heard it a million times, but it just went over my head........... obviously.
It all works together to keep people in line.................if you don't have spirit, then, God aint talkin to ya~
If ya ain't gettin revelation, then, ya must not be ''building up the spirit, in order to hear from HIM"~
and if something BAD happens to ya, then, ya must be doing something wrong, cuz God woulda told yer spririt!
Ahhhhh the good ol days..................I am so glad they are gone!
My thoughts are these. We are all God's children. you, me, Osma Bin Ladin, the Taliban, The Queen of England, LCM, etc etc.
We may not act like it, we may not acknowledge it , but we are.
Is TWI really trying to tell me that God is NOT ALLOWED to talk to all His children, whenever and however he pleases???
God's Laws--so tell me just when exactly did God make laws limiting what He could do??
And it is not just TWI, the fundies of many faiths would have you believe that God can only talk to who they decide is worthy--Arrogance doesn't begin to cover the half of it
Really, ALL children of God ?? I would have thought Osama was a son of him who was a murderer from the beginning...Hitler too, Geoffrey Daimler, Hannibal Lecter, etc...
I usually agree with most of your viewpoints, but I don't believe this one! Can you give me chapter and verse on that?
Jesus said many times that His sheep hear his voice, and that not all have the same Father.
I understand that ''human beings'' (general) started because of God. Our bodies, the way they operate, how beautiful they are, just like anything in nature, is a true work of GOD. Maybe you are saying that ''WE are all HIS, but HE is NOT their Father???"
And, you are correct in saying that God can talk to anything He wants to.
"His creation" though, to me, is different then saying ''His Children''.
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bliss
so, thinking aloud.....................let me add.............
some doctrinal proof...
Genesis 41:32
"And for that the dream was doubled unto Pharaoh twice: it is because the thing is established by GOD, and God will bring it to pass."
So we have the Pharaoh's dream that Joseph needed to interpret, as well as the butler's and the baker's?
This was not only Old Testament, but they were UNBELIEVERS without even ''spirit UPON", let alone inside.
God spoke to their BRAIN CELLS somehow!!!!!
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T-Bone
Good thread, Bliss!...In my humble opinion I think TWI [whether intentional or not] just formulated these laws and rules in order to anoint themselves as an invisible priesthood. Their office of priesthood is invisible to followers – in that followers are not aware that these rites and ceremonies – rules and laws – separate them and God – like the curtain in the Temple. The TWI-priests declare and interpret the laws of their god, judge followers’ responses to these laws and grant access into a fictitious throne room for the obedient ones.
…Funny – thinking about the chapter Are you limiting God in the VPW’s Blue Book. I think TWI has that down pat – limiting God that is…God can’t talk to human brain cells, huh? Guess He had no problem with Balaam’s donkey brain cells :blink: .
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George Aar
Yeah, I've been down this road too, Bliss.
'Cept I didn't stop. I kept going on to question "Who says the Bible is God's Word?"
I didn't get any satisfying answers to that one either.
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bliss
Oh, I could go down that road too George...............and I have..............but this isn't the ''FAITH" thread.
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waysider
Not only do I not believe it's a law, I simply don't believe it's true. TWI also taught SIT much was crucial to receiving revelation. I have cited on previous posts, incidents where I believe God spoke to people. In these examples, the parties involved either had limited experience with SIT or none at all. In fact, where does it state that the new birth is an absolute necessity? Consider this scenario:You share The Word regarding new birth with someone who is a natural man. They, of course, can't understand what you are talking about since (according to TWI) natural man can't understand anything of a spiritual nature. OOPS! I guess their fate has been sealed. Sure, I know that the scriptures say natural man can't understand spiritual matters but does that mean God can't find a way to talk to whomever He chooses?( slight digression, but Temple Lady pointed out to me that it is more a matter of our hearing than of God speaking.I believe she is correct) TWI was obsessed with laws alright but not the immutable variety that are beneficial to those who keep them.
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Twinky
Just a thought... I'm a human being. I have a cat. My cat understands me when I call her (whether she obeys is another matter). She also makes an assortment of noises at me and I know what they mean.
Lots of people have dogs. Dogs appear understand instructions, ie human words, better than cats. People understand their dogs' yips, yaps, growls, whines, etc also.
I don't speak cat-ese or dog-ese. But we understand each other.
Without going all "natural realm" or "spiritual realm" - ain't we talking about completely different things communicating perfectly adequately?
Sure God can speak to natural man. He can do this directly, or indirectly by means of his book. Has to be true - else how could we mere humans *ever* know?
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waysider
Added note: TWI says we can't know God by the five senses. What other avenues do we really have?When we witness a baby being born, when we hear its' first cry, when we feel the warmth of the morning sun on our faces,when we share a heartfelt embrace in times of pain or joy or taste the sweetness of freshly picked fruit or ,like one poster has noted, smell that incomparable aroma of a newborns' head, are we not using our five senses to commune with what God has wrought? Just some food for thought.
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lindyhopper
They really said this on a STS recently? :blink:
I mean there are many many examples in the Bible to refute that claim. Take Paul for example, he converted after Pentacost and was on a hunt for Christians to torture and kill them when Jesus appeared to him and spoke to him (two sences involved). While I obviously question the verasity of that story and how it fits in the context of the Bible and God's fairness and a number of other things, it is how they view the Bible and that "law" you quoted doesn't jive with their own view of the Bible.
Why then would they say such a thing?
Perhaps to sell more classes. You need to get to the Advanced class to really understand all that spiritual stuff and the "revelation and impartation" manifestations.
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bliss
Yes, Lindy, that is VERBATUM! (sp?) Nothing surprising though, Craig has taught that for years. I've heard it a million times, but it just went over my head........... obviously.
It all works together to keep people in line.................if you don't have spirit, then, God aint talkin to ya~
If ya ain't gettin revelation, then, ya must not be ''building up the spirit, in order to hear from HIM"~
and if something BAD happens to ya, then, ya must be doing something wrong, cuz God woulda told yer spririt!
Ahhhhh the good ol days..................I am so glad they are gone!
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templelady
My thoughts are these. We are all God's children. you, me, Osma Bin Ladin, the Taliban, The Queen of England, LCM, etc etc.
We may not act like it, we may not acknowledge it , but we are.
Is TWI really trying to tell me that God is NOT ALLOWED to talk to all His children, whenever and however he pleases???
God's Laws--so tell me just when exactly did God make laws limiting what He could do??
And it is not just TWI, the fundies of many faiths would have you believe that God can only talk to who they decide is worthy--Arrogance doesn't begin to cover the half of it
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allan w.
Really, ALL children of God ?? I would have thought Osama was a son of him who was a murderer from the beginning...Hitler too, Geoffrey Daimler, Hannibal Lecter, etc...
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bliss
Templelady,
I usually agree with most of your viewpoints, but I don't believe this one! Can you give me chapter and verse on that?
Jesus said many times that His sheep hear his voice, and that not all have the same Father.
I understand that ''human beings'' (general) started because of God. Our bodies, the way they operate, how beautiful they are, just like anything in nature, is a true work of GOD. Maybe you are saying that ''WE are all HIS, but HE is NOT their Father???"
And, you are correct in saying that God can talk to anything He wants to.
"His creation" though, to me, is different then saying ''His Children''.
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