edited posthumously

[skyrider]

On a thread in the Open Forum entitled Turn Your Eyes Upon Jesus......some aspects of CG and edited poshumously came up but were not the main focus of the thread.

Could someone answer a few of my questions..........please?

1) What is the literary protocol of proceeding forward with edited posthumously? With CG editing vpw's teachings, corps notes, special songs, ballads, etc......IMO, it seemed more like NAME-DROPPING than anything else.

2) Is there a point or boundary wherein "edited posthumously" is merely marketing fabrication? Clearly, with wierwille's studying the work of J.E. Stiles, E.W. Bullinger and B.G. Leonard (to name a few)......he gleaned (and plaigarized) aplenty over the years. Now, CG is taking the vp-work and moving it further from its original (copyrighted?) source.

3) I tend to view the edited posthumously aspect as a continuation of work that someone finishes in the event that a fellow researcher/author dies before a project is completed.....and, when edited posthumously one credits the person. Is that correct?

I have more questions about this............but will hold off for now.

Thanks.

Edited November 10, 2006 by skyrider

[WhiteDove]

Could someone answer a few of my questions..........please?

1) What is the literary protocol of proceeding forward with edited posthumously? With CG editing vpw's teachings, corps notes, special songs, ballads, etc......IMO, it seemed more like NAME-DROPPING than anything else.

The purpose for producing the books done posthumously was to put into printed book form things that were no longer available to many believers due to out of print items, and more importantly withholding of materials by The Way International. For the most part editing was limited to parts that would not fit in the book format or were outdated information, additionally some of the articles in original form had no titles so they were supplied from context. They are italicized to show they were added. .

2) Is there a point or boundary wherein "edited posthumously" is merely marketing fabrication? Clearly, with wierwille's studying the work of J.E. Stiles, E.W. Bullinger and B.G. Leonard (to name a few)......he gleaned (and plaigarized) aplenty over the years. Now, CG is taking the vp-work and moving it further from its original (copyrighted?) source.

It was always Chris Geer's intent to continue to produce materials for those who he felt would benefit from them., as far back as the Passing of the Patriarch he stated this. Many of the prior articles had found there way into books already it was a continuation of this process. I don't believe that the intent was to move any material from it's source.

Quote: page 81 POP

"I explained that the reason that we were publishing looks was because they were a survivable media, and that perhaps in another time God would raise someone up to handle His Word again, and that this was the best way that I could see to go."

and Quote page 85 POP

"After hearing their response I told them that since that was the direction that they were going to go, then I thought it best if I informed them of the direction that we were going to go. Since there was not going to be a great resurgence of the Word of God in the Ministry, the best value for my life that I could see was if I continued to try and put the works of Dr. Wierwille into written form and to continue to rework the Advanced Class to the end that I could assemble a final copy, like Dr. Wierwille had asked me to do.'

3) I tend to view the edited posthumously aspect as a continuation of work that someone finishes in the event that a fellow researcher/author dies before a project is completed.....and, when edited posthumously one credits the person. Is that correct?

I'd say so yes ,depending on how you view the above information I'd say it was just that a continuation of printing things into book form that were not done at the time which may have or may not have been at VPW request depending on how you accept the above information.

Edited November 10, 2006 by WhiteDove

[shortfuse]

It would be appropriate to say they were published posthumously, but it would be unnecessary to include this on the cover of the book. It is self-evident once the date of the author’s death is known. The thing that is queer about the "edited posthumously by Victor Paul Wierwille" is that it literally means VPW was involved in the editing after he was dead. Now whether or not that is actually possible depends on your views about life after death, but there is no mistaking what TWI and VPW believed about this subject. "When you die, you're dead." You won't be editing or doing anything else posthumously, that is after your death. So it is a curious turn of phrase that is to my knowledge without literary precedent.

Why couldn't Geer have just said, "the transcribed teachings of VPW, edited by Chris Geer”? This is an accepted approach to posthumous publication of someone's speeches or writings. From where I sit it definitely seemed like Geer was trying to leverage Wierwille's name to improve his own credibility and marketability.

[Linda Z]

I blew the cobwebs off a book in this series I have. On the inside of the front flyleaf, it lists the other books in this series as "published posthumously"; then, on the title page, it says, "edited posthumously by Christopher C. Gearshift."

I thought that sounded strange, too, but I googled the phrase "edited posthumously" and found it used in this way many times.

My understanding, when these books came out, was that a lot of the chapters were edited from transcripts of teachings (e.g. SNS tapes, etc.), not from written material. It's a long time ago, though, so I might not be remembering correctly.

[WhiteDove]

It would be appropriate to say they were published posthumously, but it would be unnecessary to include this on the cover of the book. It is self-evident once the date of the author’s death is known

Unnecessary maybe, but not unreasonable not everyone reading the book in future may be aware of the author's life or death. For the record also just so the facts are out there not misinformation the only book that has the phrase edited posthumously on the cover was Living Victoriously the other books list VPW on the cover.

The thing that is queer about the "edited posthumously by Victor Paul Wierwille" is that it literally means VPW was involved in the editing after he was dead. Now whether or not that is actually possible depends on your views about life after death, but there is no mistaking what TWI and VPW believed about this subject. "When you die, you're dead." You won't be editing or doing anything else posthumously, that is after your death. So it is a curious turn of phrase that is to my knowledge without literary precedent.

You see the thing that is queer is that people that don't know the facts make guesses on what things do or do not say. As noted edited posthumously by Victor Paul Wierwille" it was never printed that way in or on any of the books. - another assumption.

Why couldn't Geer have just said, "the transcribed teachings of VPW, edited by Chris Geer”? This is an accepted approach to posthumous publication of someone's speeches or writings. From where I sit it definitely seemed like Geer was trying to leverage Wierwille's name to improve his own credibility and marketability.

And so is edited posthumously I found 35,000 usages on a Google search It' s a perfectly accurate usage unless you are looking for something to speculate about. No offence but from where you sit, with all the wrong facts it would be a bit hard to make any judgment on anyone's motives. Unless of course you just want to make s*** up as is par for the course. If you don't like the man fine, but at least be honest with your accusations and get the facts straight. Your reaching for something that is not there and IMHO your not even doing that well.

Edited November 10, 2006 by WhiteDove

[WhiteDove]

My understanding, when these books came out, was that a lot of the chapters were edited from transcripts of teachings (e.g. SNS tapes, etc.), not from written material. It's a long time ago, though, so I might not be remembering correctly.

Depending on the book - Living Victoriously was edited from the tapes from the event. Our times was edited from the early articles in the Way Magazine by that name with a few other items thrown in. The others were a combination of various taped teachings and printed items I believe as well.

[shortfuse]

Thanks for the LOVE, Dove. Go have a cup of coffee.

--------------------

LOVE FROM THE DOVE....

Without Coffee I Would Have No Personality At All.

[Raf]

Edited posthumously does not imply that the writer was involved in the editing process after his death. It's the opposite: it means the writer was not involved in the editing process. Someone living was working off a dead person's notes or other source material (ie, tapes).

Edited November 10, 2006 by Raf

[shortfuse]

And so is edited posthumously I found 35,000 usages on a Google search It' s a perfectly accurate usage unless you are looking for something to speculate about. No offence but from where you sit, with all the wrong facts it would be a bit hard to make any judgment on anyone's motives. Unless of course you just want to make s*** up as is par for the course. If you don't like the man fine, but at least be honest with your accusations and get the facts straight. Your reaching for something that is not there and IMHO your not even doing that well.

A bit of googling prove that you are infact, right and I was wrong. I have not seen one of these volumes from Geer, but I see now there is a precident for this. You can understand why editted posthumously by VPW would be very odd, I don't know where I got that from. Must not have been very careful in my reading. Again, I stand corrected.

[Raf]

Oh! I misread. Yes, if it had said Edited Posthumously by VPW, that would be strange indeed.

[WhiteDove]

Short

I believe that it was Twinky from the other thread that misdirected you. and yes that would have been odd the other way.

Some coffee for you........

[TheInvisibleDan]

Which raises another interesting question: did the Way copyright VPW's Sunday service tapes (or any other number of teaching tapes by him)?

[WhiteDove]

Legal information: The Way International does NOT hold a copyright to the Sunday Night Service tapes and Tape of the Month tapes by Dr. Victor Paul Wierwille. In fact, it would appear that these tapes were placed in the public domain by Dr. Wierwille and/or the Way International at the time they were distributed due to the fact that there was no copyright symbol placed on any of the tapes. In 1988 Congress passed the Berne Convention Implementation Act, Pub.L. 100-568, 102 Stat. 2853 (Oct. 31, 1988) which eliminated the notice requirement completely for all works first published after March 1, 1989. However, prior to that Act the copyright issue would be controlled by the Copyright Act of 1909 (the '1909 Act')." Under the 1909 Act and prior to March 1, 1989, the Copyright Act required that each copy of a work distributed to the public be marked with a copyright notice." TransWestern Pub. Co. LP v. Multimedia Marketing Associates, Inc., 133 F.3d 773, 782 (10th Cir. 1998).

Furthermore, "Failure to do so would inject the work into the public domain." Id. However, the Way International, by failing to adhere to the strict statutory formalities-- i.e., the copyright notice requirement—caused all of the works at issue (teachings by Dr. Wierwille) to be passed into the "Public Domain." "Once a work has passed into the public domain as a result of failure to provide adequate notice of copyright, it may freely be copied." Allied Mktg. Group, Inc. v. CDL Mktg., Inc., 878 F.2d 806, 810 (5th Cir. 1989) This indicia requirement in the Copyright Act was not amended until the Berne Convention Implementation Act of 1988, which became effective March 1, 1989. Id. It was not until the Berne Convention amendments that the copyright notice became optional rather than mandatory. Id. See also 17 U.S.C. § 401(a) Norma Ribbon & Trimming, Inc. v. Little, 51 F.3d 45 (5th Cir. 1995) .

Since Dr. Wierwille passed away in 1985, all of the teachings at issue were produced prior to the Berne Convention Implementation Act and were required to have a copyright notice on each and every tape distributed in order for the copyright protection to be valid. Prior to March 1, 1989, ownership of a valid copyright is established by proving the originality and copyrightability of the material and compliance with the statutory formalities (i.e. – having a copyright notice displayed on each work). Id. See also Allied Mktg. Group, Inc. v. CDL Mktg., Inc., 878 F.2d 806, 810 (5th Cir. 1989) Apple Barrel Prods., Inc. v. Beard, Only after the Plaintiff meets their burden pursuant to 17 U.S.C. § 410© does a defendant have the burden of overcoming it.

[potato]

and if in the public domain, no requirements to cite the source when creating derivative works.

[Nottawayfer]

Most of the Way Magazine articles done by LCM were just rehashed STS teachings or teaching from Corps Night. I worked in Word Processing, and I remember being very disappointed about all of that. It appeared that the MOG almost didn't have anything to do with writing of Way Mag articles. They just took his spewings and wrote them up, he approved them. All of us peons out in the field believed the MOG had a great job of teaching, writing articles, and doing things of Gawd...... :blink:

Word Processing had people who used dictaphones to type up those teachings and then President's Publications (YES, he had his own publication Department separate from Way Publication ) would mark it up for editing. We would get back the edited copy and would do several go arounds until they got an actual article that was usable.

I wonder if they did the same thing to produce pothumously-written books?

[potato]

this is gonna be a little off topic, but who actually wrote Rise and Expansion?

[Raf]

and if in the public domain, no requirements to cite the source when creating derivative works.

The requirement of citation, whether in the public domain, is a matter of morality and honesty, not necessarily legality. The fact that something is in the public domain does not give anyone the right to repeat it as though he/she is the originator of the material.

[potato]

I agree with you Raf. I was just talking the letter of the law, not the spirit of Truth.

[Kit Sober]

Re Watchman Nee: He was in prison from 1952 until his death in 1972. His wife died shortly before he did (I think that's what broke his will to live). Anyway. There are many books "by Watchman Nee" out there. And Watchman Nee only approved a few -- "The spiritual Man" and a couple of others that were printed prior to 1952.

None of Watchman Nee's books, which are primarily published from student notes of his teachings, say "edited pothsumously" etc. They just say, "by Watchman Nee."

I asked a Chinese fellow once who also knew Watchman Nee stuff, "How do you know if it isn't really Watchman Nee?"

He thought (prayed), then chuckled, then answered, "If it wasn't Watchman Nee, it woudn't be Watchman Nee."

In more complicated way: If Watchman Nee hadn't said those things, it wouldn't carry the life of the spirit we know as that of Watchman Nee.

Example: Watchman Nee said, "The reasonings and justifications of man will dry and wither up and blow away (Genesis 3:7)." This carries a heartbreaking truth with a sparkle in the eye from the Holy Spirit. Sometimes I can read Watchman Nee stuff where the softness of him seems far away from the printed page, but the "feel" of what Watchman Nee said over 50 years ago is still there.

Of course, in my opinion, the life of the spirit that vpw cannot be determined due to the muddying of the waters by plagerism, for me, the point is moot for vpw works.

I would, of course, recommend reading JE Stiles, BG Leonard, Norman Vincent Peale, Billy Graham and countless others who walked with the Lord and tried to communicate that in their works to learn the feel of the Holy Spirit. vpw was simply a con man and his stuff will only lure you into a con man's web.

[WhiteDove]

Of course, since there was no life of the spirit that vpw carried, the point is moot for vpw works.

Really Kit none? I'll leave that determination up to God. :blink:

As for me personally I know that I would not be where I am today had it not been for his teaching ministry. I have benefited greatly from his life and I know countless others that would agree.

Edited November 11, 2006 by WhiteDove

[skyrider]

2) Is there a point or boundary wherein "edited posthumously" is merely marketing fabrication? Clearly, with wierwille's studying the work of J.E. Stiles, E.W. Bullinger and B.G. Leonard (to name a few)......he gleaned (and plaigarized) aplenty over the years. Now, CG is taking the vp-work and moving it further from its original (copyrighted?) source.

It was always Chris Geer's intent to continue to produce materials for those who he felt would benefit from them., as far back as the Passing of the Patriarch he stated this. Many of the prior articles had found there way into books already it was a continuation of this process. I don't believe that the intent was to move any material from it's source.

Quote: page 81 POP

"I explained that the reason that we were publishing books was because they were a survivable media, and that perhaps in another time God would raise someone up to handle His Word again, and that this was the best way that I could see to go."

Seems like there is a very fine line (and a legal and ethical issue) between plaigarizing another man's works VERSUS producing "edited posthumously" material and springboarding one's own ministry..??

:blink:

[WhiteDove]

There could be. In this case I'll take him at his word , it filled a gap for those interested in materials being withheld by The Way Int. They Way in Great Britain Ltd. was functioning before the books so I would not say that it spring boarded anything in this case. I think they sold a fair amount, but on a scale of a best seller today, it would be very little. They were not a focal point or defining for their ministry they were what they were a book of articles and teachings.

Not everything has some hidden motive sometimes right or wrong people just do something because they feel it is the right thing for them to do. Time , personal satisfaction or the free market will tell if it was right or wrong in the end. I know it is cool and fashionable to pick apart peoples motives especially when they are not well liked here, I suppose it makes one look like they have some great insight into things. Really the truth is we don't know do we? I generally take people at face value, unless I have good reason to believe otherwise( I wannna look cool is not one by the way) Some years later I still have seen no other reason or gain other than the one offered to undertake the project.

Edited November 12, 2006 by WhiteDove

[skyrider]

I generally take people at face value, unless I have good reason to believe otherwise( I wannna look cool is not one by the way) Some years later I still have seen no other reason or gain other than the one offered to undertake the project.

With Cgeer......enough first-hand information has come forward to detail some of his "face value." And, it ain't pretty. But in terms of his "edited posthumously" agendas.....it seems fairly evident that he was into a "Promoting of a Patriarch" (wierwille) mode. From bus driver to valet to bodyguard.......Cgeer had carved out his life's work and with the passing of wierwille, he simply shifted gears.

With Wierwille......enough evidence of his plaigarism has been documented for me to see how he spring boarded his ministry from other men's work. Was it ethical and justified? Not according to B.G. Leonard's viewpoint.......who began copyrighting his work after wierwille's class (cough, cough) sprung up in 1953.

"Some years later I still have seen no other reason or gain...." Well, sitting back and collecting monthly franchise checks might be ONE reason.

[Kit Sober]

Thanks White Dove. I stand corrected (and corrected my comment) for "no life."

Regarding giving credit to vpw's ministry for the blessing of the Lord in our lives, my view of that, now, is that it is similar to Naaman's giving the gifts to Gehazi -- The blessings of the Lord came from the Holy Spirit and was given to men who walked with the Lord, BG Leonard, JE Stiles, EW Bullinger, and others in the twi who did live to serve the Lord.

However, vpw made merchandise of that work for his own gain, in my opinion.

[rascal]

Kit, I understand what you are saying. I see it as the difference between a genuine Godly inspired Christian and a counterfit who mimics the spiritual walk.

The counterfit, can say all of the words, look rightious and wholesome, but teachings and actions be stagnant and lifeless.

It takes becoming aquainted with the writings and actions of a genuine man of the spirit to recognise the hypocracy of a false man of the flesh.

It then simply doesn`t matter the lable they place on themselves.

Edited November 12, 2006 by rascal