A friend posted these comments on FB today. Not necessarily about JE Stiles' book, but these comments DO go to the essence of issues raised by rrobs' comments.
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It seems obvious that the message rrobs has been setting forth is that he's right and we're wrong because we don't necessarily hold to his (pro word) interpretation of what he learned from PFLAP and Wierwille.
I'm not sure who Don Petros is or might be, but it's clear that there are a LOT of words that have been posted to GSC over the last 17 years demonstrating that what TWI has been missing all along is a sense of morality. Wierwille's "calling" was that he was right and everyone who disagrees is wrong. But his "rightness" definitely didn't consistently translate into morality or compassion.
I really couldn't say everybody else is wrong. I have no real idea what anybody here thinks of the actual Bible. Everybody talks about me way more than the Bible, so no, I don't necessarily think everybody here is wrong. The word of God is "right" not me, you, or anybody else. We are right only to the degree that we align with the word. But I suppose it'll come up, "whose version of the word is right?" I'll tell you right now, not for me to answer.
I really couldn't say everybody else is wrong. I have no real idea what anybody here thinks of the actual Bible. Everybody talks about me way more than the Bible, so no, I don't necessarily think everybody here is wrong. The word of God is "right" not me, you, or anybody else. We are right only to the degree that we align with the word. But I suppose it'll come up, "whose version of the word is right?" I'll tell you right now, not for me to answer.
The Bible teaches through the words of Jesus the concept of knowing people through their fruit. Â
Much of the discussion here touches on that. Â The reason why is the Way has been engaged since the beginning in a whitewash campaign hiding the fruit of its top leadership. Â
Hence all people see are the rainbows and unicorns the Way wants them to see.
I would rather tell people the truth.
But if I just walk around quoting basic fundamentalist verses and ignore the putrid fruit I'm stepping in all they will ever see is rainbows and unicorns unless they have experienced some of what I have.
If they could avoid some of the negative effects of my experience through education I would like that.
Also when people are arguing it is hard to see the difference between emotional words and fruit.
The Bible teaches through the words of Jesus the concept of knowing people through their fruit. Â
Much of the discussion here touches on that. Â The reason why is the Way has been engaged since the beginning in a whitewash campaign hiding the fruit of its top leadership. Â
Hence all people see are the rainbows and unicorns the Way wants them to see.
I would rather tell people the truth.
But if I just walk around quoting basic fundamentalist verses and ignore the putrid fruit I'm stepping in all they will ever see is rainbows and unicorns unless they have experienced some of what I have.
If they could avoid some of the negative effects of my experience through education I would like that.
Also when people are arguing it is hard to see the difference between emotional words and fruit.
Couldn't people just avoid the Way altogether? Just go to the word?
I don't get your connection between quoting scripture and putrid fruit. Are you saying that acting on the things in the Bible produces putrid fruit? That can't be what you are saying. Surely, I misunderstand what you are saying there. Sorry about that.
Why not learn from the word instead of people's negative experiences? I want to know what the word says. I already have plenty of negative experiences. Nothing for me to learn there.
Could you elaborate on that, particularly the last sentence?
By the way, "application" smacks of wayspeak. Be careful how you use your words. Just saying...
Maybe it is Wayspeak. Â Nice catch! Â I'll be thinking on that.
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It is being presented here that Victor Paul Wierwille created a belief system for malevolent purposes.  Also, that a student of PFAL incorporates that system into their being.  The works of VPW and other people and personal accounts are evidence for this.
You are arguing that you don't need to reflect on the evidence and confront the negatives.  Because you just want to fixate on the positives.  What you call "The Word".
"The Word", in this context, is not The Bible.  Although the words of The Bible are used.
The inability to acknowledge the possibility of negatives in any meaningful way makes one helpless, and unable to do good.  Because then one has no choice in the matter. Being unable to even imagine the evil of "The Word", one cannot do any significant good going forward.
Looking at the facts, the negatives, of VPW and TWI one can easily imagine evil intents.  It can easily be imagined that "The Word" destroys significantly more than it builds.
Typically once a person realizes this, there's a number of choices to be made.
Maybe you are able to imagine what is meant here, maybe you are not.
Maybe it is Wayspeak. Â Nice catch! Â I'll be thinking on that.
------------------
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It is being presented here that Victor Paul Wierwille created a belief system for malevolent purposes.  Also, that a student of PFAL incorporates that system into their being.  The works of VPW and other people and personal accounts are evidence for this.
You are arguing that you don't need to reflect on the evidence and confront the negatives.  Because you just want to fixate on the positives.  What you call "The Word".
"The Word", in this context, is not The Bible.  Although the words of The Bible are used.
The inability to acknowledge the possibility of negatives in any meaningful way makes one helpless, and unable to do good.  Because then one has no choice in the matter. Being unable to even imagine the evil of "The Word", one cannot do any significant good going forward.
Looking at the facts, the negatives, of VPW and TWI one can easily imagine evil intents.  It can easily be imagined that "The Word" destroys significantly more than it builds.
Typically once a person realizes this, there's a number of choices to be made.
Maybe you are able to imagine what is meant here, maybe you are not.
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I think I can understand you to some small degree. But you are right I don't understand you very well. I don't think any of our interactions have been conducive to understand. I'm not blaming you. Your not the only one in the said interaction. I was right in their with you. Romans 2:1 applies to me also! In any case, it is obvious a lot of people got hurt and I don't like seeing people getting hurt any more than the next guy.
Now I have to tell my life story (very abbreviated, don't worry) so you can understand me a little. I'd be interested in your life story (abbreviated also, please if you don't mind). Then we'll understand each other. It'll also make a point as to my attitude towards men and the Bible which you can comment on if desired. Here goes:
I got born again(late 60s) when some people from a group called "The Children of God" stopped me in the street and out the clear blue they began to pray for "Jesus to come into my heart." They said nothing else. That was enough to make me fall onto the ground in intense pain. I rolled myself up into the foetal position. Suddenly the pain vanished and I felt like I'd never felt before. I, like everybody, carried a lot of guilt for things I had done.
More details are not necessary, but the bottom line was that I knew I was saved. No doubt I was a new creature. I knew it without ever having read it. So they invited me to their commune for Bible teaching and food. Sounded good, so I went. One of the best times I had experienced. I was flying because I just knew "Jesus loved me." That's all I needed to know right then to live John 10:10. In a wink I was living a different life than ever before. I knew it.
When it was time for me to leave I bade them all farewell and said I'd be back. One of them replied, "You can't leave. You have to stay if you want to be loved by God. If you go now, you can't come back." Without hesitation, I said, "OK. I'll go be alone with Jesus." I thought many other things, but that's all I said. Didn't bother me one bit because my mind was on Jesus, not The Children of God.
Well, it seemed the whole scenario played out again with twi. Shortly after the above incident (6 months), I met WOW Ambassadors (still called that?). They were nice people, but the Bible they taught me is what kept me coming back. A while later I went on staff. No big sacrifice compared to going WOW or the corps. I had to work somewhere. What made this job different was the Bible I could hear. That's what I was there for. I loved working there for the word. Never felt blessed because I was near VP or at the most holy place in the world or whatever. They were decent folks and they taught the word. That's all I was there for.
Some years later and a few weeks after The Passing of the Patriarch came out I found myself back in the living room with the Children of God. And I swear to God, it was no harder to walk away from that brewing s..t storm that it was with the Children of God. In both cases I could clearly see that the issue boiled down to a matter of who held my loyalty, man or God? Never bothered me a wit either time. I've not been to one single meeting with with twi, any splinter group, nor church of any sort. It's been me and God, and that's it.
Dare I suggest that there was a cult worship of sorts regarding VP? Was the Bible playing second fiddle to VP in some minds? If so then the leadership should have seen it and corrected it instead of taking advantage of the situation. Still, it's no secret in the Bible what happens when people put their trust in man, whoever that man may be. What happens is pretty much what happened at twi.
Please understand, I'm not interested in laying fault at anybody's feet. Nor am I saying I'm superior because I could hang out at twi and not fall into their trap of believing their lies instead of the Bible. It's just me. Nobody else like me. It's just where my life experiences led me. Of course, everybody has their own story. That's what makes us different. But none of that changes the truth that it's the Bible, not VP, Stiles, Bullinger, or any other man that can make all of us different people into one body.
Well all that is the past. So why, 30(?) years later, are we still focusing on a man? We still haven't learned the supremacy of God's word. And it held that supremacy long before VP, so it's not his idea. He's got nothing to do with that. Whenever the word Bible, word, scripture, or whatever comes up, I think the first thoughts in many minds is, "VP. lier, plagiarizer, I hate the word...grrr." But that's never what the Bible says. You know that, I'm sure. VP couldn't have hurt the Bible any more than Satan. Only if people let him, could he do that. The Bible is what matters. Just read and study that and we'll be OK.
Couldn't people just avoid the Way altogether? Just go to the word?
I don't get your connection between quoting scripture and putrid fruit. Are you saying that acting on the things in the Bible produces putrid fruit? That can't be what you are saying. Surely, I misunderstand what you are saying there. Sorry about that.
Why not learn from the word instead of people's negative experiences? I want to know what the word says. I already have plenty of negative experiences. Nothing for me to learn there.
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Plenty of people avoid the Way altogether.
Regarding putrid fruit you didn't read my message completely. Â Ignoring putrid fruit and just quoting scripture in a Pollyanna way actually is contradicting what the Word says. Â
You know, kind of like you are doing all while criticizing the content of the messages on this forum. Â
Sure you can move to remote Montana, live like the unibomber with a Bible and your conversations with God and be fine.
But what we are talking about here is helping those ensnared in the Ways traps to free themselves. Â Maybe you feel that is not you. Â Maybe in that viewpoint lies an ensnarement that causes your blindness to the trap you are in.
The Word has many references to wolves in sheep's clothing
Well all that is the past. So why, 30(?) years later, are we still focusing on a man? We still haven't learned the supremacy of God's word. And it held that supremacy long before VP, so it's not his idea. He's got nothing to do with that. Whenever the word Bible, word, scripture, or whatever comes up, I think the first thoughts in many minds is, "VP. lier, plagiarizer, I hate the word...grrr." But that's never what the Bible says. You know that, I'm sure. VP couldn't have hurt the Bible any more than Satan. Only if people let him, could he do that. The Bible is what matters. Just read and study that and we'll be OK.
So you must be speaking for yourself there with that we. Â
You aren't speaking for me. Â You know nothing of what thoughts come into my mind regarding scripture or anything else for that matter.
But your direction here sure lines up with the Way ministry and latest efforts to discount the evil foundation the organization is built on and just "study the Word". Â I mean surely the Way will be all right too just studying the Word.
Unfortunately in the real world everyone says they are studying the Word. Â So you have to actually discern between truth and error rather than believing them. Â I.e. We've studied the Word and you can't have children, mortgage a home, miss a STS.
And the Way will lie and use the next generation of millennial just like they did the last 2 generations. Â
Please understand, I'm not interested in laying fault at anybody's feet. Nor am I saying I'm superior because I could hang out at twi and not fall into their trap of believing their lies instead of the Bible. It's just me. Nobody else like me. It's just where my life experiences led me. Of course, everybody has their own story. That's what makes us different. But none of that changes the truth that it's the Bible, not VP, Stiles, Bullinger, or any other man that can make all of us different people into one body.
Well all that is the past. So why, 30(?) years later, are we still focusing on a man? We still haven't learned the supremacy of God's word. And it held that supremacy long before VP, so it's not his idea. He's got nothing to do with that. Whenever the word Bible, word, scripture, or whatever comes up, I think the first thoughts in many minds is, "VP. lier, plagiarizer, I hate the word...grrr." But that's never what the Bible says. You know that, I'm sure. VP couldn't have hurt the Bible any more than Satan. Only if people let him, could he do that. The Bible is what matters. Just read and study that and we'll be OK.
Rich........imo, you are bordering on Bibliolatry [......Historic Christianity has never endorsed worship of the Bible itself, as worship is explicitly reserved only for God.] Your statements like......"The Bible is what matters. Just read and study that and we'll be OK."Â
I disagree with you.
You sound like VP and the never-ending doctrine to "study and stand approved before God." Study, study, study......yeah, right. No thanks.
Clearly, there is Jesus as savior, lord, mediator, intercessor, etc. aspects to one's personal relationship with the Lord via holy spirit within.  Time and again, we see Paul and others herald these truths. Romans 1:1 Paul, a servant of Jesus Christ, called to be an apostle.......Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord.....etc. etc.
Imo, you are here agitating people with your "study, study, holier-than-others-doctrine"........and you haven't added ONE THING of substance that's changed my opinion. You sound like you're starting your like side-group and are trying to hype your soap to anyone who'll listen.
So you must be speaking for yourself there with that we. Â
You aren't speaking for me. Â You know nothing of what thoughts come into my mind regarding scripture or anything else for that matter.
But your direction here sure lines up with the Way ministry and latest efforts to discount the evil foundation the organization is built on and just "study the Word". Â I mean surely the Way will be all right too just studying the Word.
Unfortunately in the real world everyone says they are studying the Word. Â So you have to actually discern between truth and error rather than believing them. Â I.e. We've studied the Word and you can't have children, mortgage a home, miss a STS.
And the Way will lie and use the next generation of millennial just like they did the last 2 generations. Â
And who is going to stop them?
Pollyanna?
Coffee lines up with the Way ministry. So we can't drink coffee? You are more anti-way than any way people I ever knew were pro-way. Well, maybe not more, but at least as much. You are the other side of the coin and that is the only difference between twi and gsc. You bristle at the mere thought of me saying something as simple as, "God is greater than any man." At least the the vibes I'm getting.
BTW, you took only a small part of my post to quote. You took it out of context. Really changed the whole meaning. Context was a concept I knew before VP, so it's not him channelling through me.
Rrobs, I don't know if you're here as a plant, on a cause to win back G'spotters, here just to stir, here as a promo for the new/old restore & revive mob ( do none of them realize it's IMPOSSIBLE to revive a corpse that's been dead for decades anyhoo ) !!.....I really don't give a hoot.....I DO however agree with your beliefs concerning the Word of God. That puts me at odds with many on here, it's called give & take...heck I recently made a not insignificant donation to this site without even a thankyou from it's ' trustees' lol BUT that won't stop me from being involved here...hope you'll stick around, independant thought is good  Â
Rich........imo, you are bordering on Bibliolatry [......Historic Christianity has never endorsed worship of the Bible itself, as worship is explicitly reserved only for God.] Your statements like......"The Bible is what matters. Just read and study that and we'll be OK."Â
I disagree with you.
You sound like VP and the never-ending doctrine to "study and stand approved before God." Study, study, study......yeah, right. No thanks.
Clearly, there is Jesus as savior, lord, mediator, intercessor, etc. aspects to one's personal relationship with the Lord via holy spirit within.  Time and again, we see Paul and others herald these truths. Romans 1:1 Paul, a servant of Jesus Christ, called to be an apostle.......Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord.....etc. etc.
Imo, you are here agitating people with your "study, study, holier-than-others-doctrine"........and you haven't added ONE THING of substance that's changed my opinion. You sound like you're starting your like side-group and are trying to hype your soap to anyone who'll listen.
No thanks.
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Yes. I do tend to prefer people with whom I can discuss Bible doctrine as opposed to those who discuss VP. Everything in life is like that. Some for and some against. Most people tend to hang with those with whom share a mutual interest, as well as show mutual respect. So what is the significance in bringing up the whole "starting you're like side-group" (is that official gsc speak?). It seems pretty natural to me. What's the problem? Study, don't study. I don't care what you do.
Yes. I do tend to prefer people with whom I can discuss Bible doctrine as opposed to those who discuss VP. Everything in life is like that. Some for and some against. Most people tend to hang with those with whom share a mutual interest, as well as show mutual respect. So what is the significance in bringing up the whole "starting you're like side-group" (is that official gsc speak?). It seems pretty natural to me. What's the problem? Study, don't study. I don't care what you do.
There is NO problem......if you like one-trick ponies.
As of yet.......you STILL have not addressed any aspects of Jesus as savior, lord, mediator, intercessor, advocate, healer, righteous branch, etc. etc. Have you advanced in your relationship with the lord Jesus......or do you wear your pfal-pajamas to bed every night?
You have curtailed your wayspeak, but then with juvenile-frequency talk about gsc-speak as a diversion tactic.Â
So, you're offering a study guide on "the supremacy of God's Word".......and the twit-cult offers "the prevailing word."Â Â Hmmm.......is there a difference?
Coffee lines up with the Way ministry. So we can't drink coffee? You are more anti-way than any way people I ever knew were pro-way. Well, maybe not more, but at least as much. You are the other side of the coin and that is the only difference between twi and gsc. You bristle at the mere thought of me saying something as simple as, "God is greater than any man." At least the the vibes I'm getting.
BTW, you took only a small part of my post to quote. You took it out of context. Really changed the whole meaning. Context was a concept I knew before VP, so it's not him channelling through me.
Wow. Â I "bristle" at the mere thought of you saying something as simple as "God is greater than any man?" Â Â Â The vibes you are getting must be cross-ingrained from something else in your life. Â I know they aren't from reading content here that I write. Â I did see that earlier however when you were asking me how I could tie together Biblical action to producing putrid fruit - you never read the content of my post, as it said almost exactly the opposite. Â Perhaps a suggestion would be read something through a couple times before getting triggered? Â It seems things contradicting what you are saying triggers you.
Why would I bristle at something that I believe like the statement in quotes?
Yes my quote was the concluding portion of your post. Â I did not include your life story as including entire posts make them more difficult to follow. Â I'm sure that leaving out your life story summary would change the meaning of any post, however, I don't think I took any of your thoughts out of context - I included the entire paragraph, including the accusatory "we" statements. Â Whatever of your post you feel I misrepresented, please explain away.
And here's a Bible verse for you:
Isaiah 5:20
Woe to  those who call evil good and good evil, who put darkness for light and light for darkness, who put bitter for sweet and sweet for bitter.
Rich........imo, you are bordering on Bibliolatry [......Historic Christianity has never endorsed worship of the Bible itself, as worship is explicitly reserved only for God.] Your statements like......"The Bible is what matters. Just read and study that and we'll be OK."Â
I disagree with you.
You sound like VP and the never-ending doctrine to "study and stand approved before God." Study, study, study......yeah, right. No thanks.
Clearly, there is Jesus as savior, lord, mediator, intercessor, etc. aspects to one's personal relationship with the Lord via holy spirit within.  Time and again, we see Paul and others herald these truths. Romans 1:1 Paul, a servant of Jesus Christ, called to be an apostle.......Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord.....etc. etc.
Imo, you are here agitating people with your "study, study, holier-than-others-doctrine"........and you haven't added ONE THING of substance that's changed my opinion. You sound like you're starting your like side-group and are trying to hype your soap to anyone who'll listen.
No thanks.
Â
Well, God did magnify his word above all his name (Psalm 138:2). I'll say that much for sure. I think I have God and his word in the right compartments.
I wasn't trying to add anything of substance to any one individual, including you. I just put it out there. You know what I've found in life? Some will believe it and some won't. I don't even bother keeping score. I just know some will be yes and some no.
But what I know most about the matter is:
Isa 55:11,
So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it.
I don't feel any anxiety about knowing the results of my holding forth the word (I'll bet that's a major wayspeak violation). I just hold it forth (dang, there I go again. Sorry). Pretend I said it in a way that is comfortable for you. Anyway, you get the idea. I speak and if it is aligned with the stuff in the Bible, it will accomplish it's purpose. I suppose there is the question of what is in alignment. Whose alignment is right? How do you get to that alignment? Well, the same way everybody here reading this post understands what I'm saying. Perhaps they will miss nuances, but certainly they will get the gist. Most of the Bible is pretty simple. Easy sentences just like the ones I'm typing here. That would be my answer to that question. I guess it's come up and I've failed to answer it, but that's it.
There is NO problem......if you like one-trick ponies.
As of yet.......you STILL have not addressed any aspects of Jesus as savior, lord, mediator, intercessor, advocate, healer, righteous branch, etc. etc. Have you advanced in your relationship with the lord Jesus......or do you wear your pfal-pajamas to bed every night?
You have curtailed your wayspeak, but then with juvenile-frequency talk about gsc-speak as a diversion tactic.Â
So, you're offering a study guide on "the supremacy of God's Word".......and the twit-cult offers "the prevailing word."Â Â Hmmm.......is there a difference?
Yes. Jesus is all of those things. If it's in the word I'm all for it. I do believe all those things are there, even the etc's. Of course.
Yes. I've advanced a lot.
No. I sleep in the buff with my buff wife. TMI?!!! Sorry, but you asked.
I guess I fell for the diversion tactic of gsc and lashed out with my own version. But it's true you know. There is a certain "mood" here. So what though? Everything got some kind mood. It doesn't bother me, and I understand. No big deal. Just an observation.
If you want, follow my posts in the basement and see if there is a difference. I'm prejudiced, so you judge for yourself if you want.
15 “Watch out for false prophets. They come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ferocious wolves. 16 By their fruit you will recognize them. Do people pick grapes from thornbushes, or figs from thistles? 17 Likewise, every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. 18 A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, and a bad tree cannot bear good fruit. 19 Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20 Thus, by their fruit you will recognize them.
This is the Biblical context behind what I am speaking of when I talk about the fruit of people's lives, actions, etc. Â Notice how right in the same context it speaks of those that come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ferocious wolves.
Rich........imo, you are bordering on Bibliolatry [......Historic Christianity has never endorsed worship of the Bible itself, as worship is explicitly reserved only for God.] Your statements like......"The Bible is what matters. Just read and study that and we'll be OK."Â
I disagree with you.
You sound like VP and the never-ending doctrine to "study and stand approved before God." Study, study, study......yeah, right. No thanks.
Clearly, there is Jesus as savior, lord, mediator, intercessor, etc. aspects to one's personal relationship with the Lord via holy spirit within.  Time and again, we see Paul and others herald these truths. Romans 1:1 Paul, a servant of Jesus Christ, called to be an apostle.......Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord.....etc. etc.
Imo, you are here agitating people with your "study, study, holier-than-others-doctrine"........and you haven't added ONE THING of substance that's changed my opinion. You sound like you're starting your like side-group and are trying to hype your soap to anyone who'll listen.
No thanks.
Â
skyrider hit the nail on the head. Â With Christianity the important part is Jesus Christ. Â One of the lies of the cult was to completely usurp Christ with the written Word - "the written Word takes the place of the absent Christ"
Well first off - if they would stop acting like a-holes, and more like Christ, maybe he wouldn't be so absent, at least in example.
Second, well a vast majority of fundamentalists do act like a-holes, so maybe they need a little I Cor 13 knowledge puffs up love builds up.
But hey, we all probably could use a healthy dose of that as well.
Wow. Â I "bristle" at the mere thought of you saying something as simple as "God is greater than any man?" Â Â Â The vibes you are getting must be cross-ingrained from something else in your life. Â I know they aren't from reading content here that I write. Â I did see that earlier however when you were asking me how I could tie together Biblical action to producing putrid fruit - you never read the content of my post, as it said almost exactly the opposite. Â Perhaps a suggestion would be read something through a couple times before getting triggered? Â It seems things contradicting what you are saying triggers you.
Why would I bristle at something that I believe like the statement in quotes?
Yes my quote was the concluding portion of your post. Â I did not include your life story as including entire posts make them more difficult to follow. Â I'm sure that leaving out your life story summary would change the meaning of any post, however, I don't think I took any of your thoughts out of context - I included the entire paragraph, including the accusatory "we" statements. Â Whatever of your post you feel I misrepresented, please explain away.
And here's a Bible verse for you:
Isaiah 5:20
Woe to  those who call evil good and good evil, who put darkness for light and light for darkness, who put bitter for sweet and sweet for bitter.
I am terribly sorry if I've misread or misunderstood you in any way. In general, the web is not the best place to really convey one's thoughts and feelings to another. Gotta take that into account. At least I do.Â
I was mistaken about the bristle stuff. Good. But I think there are some who do hate the Bible because of VP. True? I really haven't figured it out yet. If I'm wrong, please tell me. I'll feel like an idiot for a second or two and then go on with a new perspective. Always liked new perspectives. I think they do a person good. Some people don't think that though.
I honestly forget the details on the context thing, but as I recall if the parts where I explicitly said I'm no better than anybody else, and giving a fairly detailed explanation of why I thought that had been included, the last paragraph would have been a different read. Now if I remember correctly, by not including more of my post in the quote, it implied I was holier than every body else. At least that was the exact conclusion you came to. Had you included the whole thing, it would be clear your conclusion was incorrect. That's the difference there.
Do you think I might be doing those things in Isaiah? I hope not. I think I'm OK with God. If I had been a Jew at the time of Isaiah, then I'd be afraid of that verse. Thank God I've been judged and found as righteous as him. Too bad the Jews didn't have that back then. But their day is coming, and a wonderful day it'll be!
skyrider hit the nail on the head. Â With Christianity the important part is Jesus Christ. Â One of the lies of the cult was to completely usurp Christ with the written Word - "the written Word takes the place of the absent Christ"
Well first off - if they would stop acting like a-holes, and more like Christ, maybe he wouldn't be so absent, at least in example.
Second, well a vast majority of fundamentalists do act like a-holes, so maybe they need a little I Cor 13 knowledge puffs up love builds up.
But hey, we all probably could use a healthy dose of that as well.
Â
God has given us the healthiest dose of love we're ever going to get. Another wonderful part of the new birth. God in Christ (2 Cor 5:19) and Christ is in you (Col 1:27). I think it says somewhere that God is love. He IS love and he's in you. We have all we're ever going to get. What we need to do is learn all about the ramifications of God in Christ in you. All of that is in the Bible. If someone where so inclined to read the Bible and study it, they will learn about God's love. The more you learn the more you act. Learn about love, you begin to love. I understand your sentiment, but maybe you meant we could exhibit a health dose of that love of God that dwells within to our brothers and sisters.
P.S. To all: please feel free to opt out of any of the "we"s in this post. It's just a writing style. The "we" doesn't have to include every single individual who reads this.
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DontWorryBeHappy
"I find it interesting that everybody here attacks me personally. Nobody address the things I say about the word. You keep wanting to make it about VP. Nobody here really knows my thinking on VP or th
Grace Valerie Claire
Robs, I think you should STFU.
waysider
OOPS!
rrobs
What in the world does VP have to do with the Bible? He's dead and gone, the Bible is still here.
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Bolshevik
Dear God, you're right!
And wrong.
So, so wrong.
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rrobs
I really couldn't say everybody else is wrong. I have no real idea what anybody here thinks of the actual Bible. Everybody talks about me way more than the Bible, so no, I don't necessarily think everybody here is wrong. The word of God is "right" not me, you, or anybody else. We are right only to the degree that we align with the word. But I suppose it'll come up, "whose version of the word is right?" I'll tell you right now, not for me to answer.
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rrobs
No, I'm right! You're wrong! Grrrr.
Well, there's some meaningful discussion.
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Bolshevik
I said you're both right and wrong.
Your statement is correct for the most part.
Your application of the statement within the discussion is nonsensical.
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chockfull
The Bible teaches through the words of Jesus the concept of knowing people through their fruit. Â
Much of the discussion here touches on that. Â The reason why is the Way has been engaged since the beginning in a whitewash campaign hiding the fruit of its top leadership. Â
Hence all people see are the rainbows and unicorns the Way wants them to see.
I would rather tell people the truth.
But if I just walk around quoting basic fundamentalist verses and ignore the putrid fruit I'm stepping in all they will ever see is rainbows and unicorns unless they have experienced some of what I have.
If they could avoid some of the negative effects of my experience through education I would like that.
Also when people are arguing it is hard to see the difference between emotional words and fruit.
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rrobs
Could you elaborate on that, particularly the last sentence?
By the way, "application" smacks of wayspeak. Be careful how you use your words. Just saying...
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rrobs
Couldn't people just avoid the Way altogether? Just go to the word?
I don't get your connection between quoting scripture and putrid fruit. Are you saying that acting on the things in the Bible produces putrid fruit? That can't be what you are saying. Surely, I misunderstand what you are saying there. Sorry about that.
Why not learn from the word instead of people's negative experiences? I want to know what the word says. I already have plenty of negative experiences. Nothing for me to learn there.
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Bolshevik
Maybe it is Wayspeak. Â Nice catch! Â I'll be thinking on that.
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It is being presented here that Victor Paul Wierwille created a belief system for malevolent purposes.  Also, that a student of PFAL incorporates that system into their being.  The works of VPW and other people and personal accounts are evidence for this.
You are arguing that you don't need to reflect on the evidence and confront the negatives.  Because you just want to fixate on the positives.  What you call "The Word".
"The Word", in this context, is not The Bible.  Although the words of The Bible are used.
The inability to acknowledge the possibility of negatives in any meaningful way makes one helpless, and unable to do good.  Because then one has no choice in the matter. Being unable to even imagine the evil of "The Word", one cannot do any significant good going forward.
Looking at the facts, the negatives, of VPW and TWI one can easily imagine evil intents.  It can easily be imagined that "The Word" destroys significantly more than it builds.
Typically once a person realizes this, there's a number of choices to be made.
Maybe you are able to imagine what is meant here, maybe you are not.
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rrobs
I think I can understand you to some small degree. But you are right I don't understand you very well. I don't think any of our interactions have been conducive to understand. I'm not blaming you. Your not the only one in the said interaction. I was right in their with you. Romans 2:1 applies to me also! In any case, it is obvious a lot of people got hurt and I don't like seeing people getting hurt any more than the next guy.
Now I have to tell my life story (very abbreviated, don't worry) so you can understand me a little. I'd be interested in your life story (abbreviated also, please if you don't mind). Then we'll understand each other. It'll also make a point as to my attitude towards men and the Bible which you can comment on if desired. Here goes:
I got born again(late 60s) when some people from a group called "The Children of God" stopped me in the street and out the clear blue they began to pray for "Jesus to come into my heart." They said nothing else. That was enough to make me fall onto the ground in intense pain. I rolled myself up into the foetal position. Suddenly the pain vanished and I felt like I'd never felt before. I, like everybody, carried a lot of guilt for things I had done.
More details are not necessary, but the bottom line was that I knew I was saved. No doubt I was a new creature. I knew it without ever having read it. So they invited me to their commune for Bible teaching and food. Sounded good, so I went. One of the best times I had experienced. I was flying because I just knew "Jesus loved me." That's all I needed to know right then to live John 10:10. In a wink I was living a different life than ever before. I knew it.
When it was time for me to leave I bade them all farewell and said I'd be back. One of them replied, "You can't leave. You have to stay if you want to be loved by God. If you go now, you can't come back." Without hesitation, I said, "OK. I'll go be alone with Jesus." I thought many other things, but that's all I said. Didn't bother me one bit because my mind was on Jesus, not The Children of God.
Well, it seemed the whole scenario played out again with twi. Shortly after the above incident (6 months), I met WOW Ambassadors (still called that?). They were nice people, but the Bible they taught me is what kept me coming back. A while later I went on staff. No big sacrifice compared to going WOW or the corps. I had to work somewhere. What made this job different was the Bible I could hear. That's what I was there for. I loved working there for the word. Never felt blessed because I was near VP or at the most holy place in the world or whatever. They were decent folks and they taught the word. That's all I was there for.
Some years later and a few weeks after The Passing of the Patriarch came out I found myself back in the living room with the Children of God. And I swear to God, it was no harder to walk away from that brewing s..t storm that it was with the Children of God. In both cases I could clearly see that the issue boiled down to a matter of who held my loyalty, man or God? Never bothered me a wit either time. I've not been to one single meeting with with twi, any splinter group, nor church of any sort. It's been me and God, and that's it.
Dare I suggest that there was a cult worship of sorts regarding VP? Was the Bible playing second fiddle to VP in some minds? If so then the leadership should have seen it and corrected it instead of taking advantage of the situation. Still, it's no secret in the Bible what happens when people put their trust in man, whoever that man may be. What happens is pretty much what happened at twi.
Please understand, I'm not interested in laying fault at anybody's feet. Nor am I saying I'm superior because I could hang out at twi and not fall into their trap of believing their lies instead of the Bible. It's just me. Nobody else like me. It's just where my life experiences led me. Of course, everybody has their own story. That's what makes us different. But none of that changes the truth that it's the Bible, not VP, Stiles, Bullinger, or any other man that can make all of us different people into one body.
Well all that is the past. So why, 30(?) years later, are we still focusing on a man? We still haven't learned the supremacy of God's word. And it held that supremacy long before VP, so it's not his idea. He's got nothing to do with that. Whenever the word Bible, word, scripture, or whatever comes up, I think the first thoughts in many minds is, "VP. lier, plagiarizer, I hate the word...grrr." But that's never what the Bible says. You know that, I'm sure. VP couldn't have hurt the Bible any more than Satan. Only if people let him, could he do that. The Bible is what matters. Just read and study that and we'll be OK.
Edited by rrobstypo
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chockfull
Plenty of people avoid the Way altogether.
Regarding putrid fruit you didn't read my message completely. Â Ignoring putrid fruit and just quoting scripture in a Pollyanna way actually is contradicting what the Word says. Â
You know, kind of like you are doing all while criticizing the content of the messages on this forum. Â
Sure you can move to remote Montana, live like the unibomber with a Bible and your conversations with God and be fine.
But what we are talking about here is helping those ensnared in the Ways traps to free themselves. Â Maybe you feel that is not you. Â Maybe in that viewpoint lies an ensnarement that causes your blindness to the trap you are in.
The Word has many references to wolves in sheep's clothing
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chockfull
So you must be speaking for yourself there with that we. Â
You aren't speaking for me. Â You know nothing of what thoughts come into my mind regarding scripture or anything else for that matter.
But your direction here sure lines up with the Way ministry and latest efforts to discount the evil foundation the organization is built on and just "study the Word". Â I mean surely the Way will be all right too just studying the Word.
Unfortunately in the real world everyone says they are studying the Word. Â So you have to actually discern between truth and error rather than believing them. Â I.e. We've studied the Word and you can't have children, mortgage a home, miss a STS.
And the Way will lie and use the next generation of millennial just like they did the last 2 generations. Â
And who is going to stop them?
Pollyanna?
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skyrider
Rich........imo, you are bordering on Bibliolatry [......Historic Christianity has never endorsed worship of the Bible itself, as worship is explicitly reserved only for God.] Your statements like......"The Bible is what matters. Just read and study that and we'll be OK."Â
I disagree with you.
You sound like VP and the never-ending doctrine to "study and stand approved before God." Study, study, study......yeah, right. No thanks.
Clearly, there is Jesus as savior, lord, mediator, intercessor, etc. aspects to one's personal relationship with the Lord via holy spirit within.  Time and again, we see Paul and others herald these truths. Romans 1:1 Paul, a servant of Jesus Christ, called to be an apostle.......Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord.....etc. etc.
Imo, you are here agitating people with your "study, study, holier-than-others-doctrine"........and you haven't added ONE THING of substance that's changed my opinion. You sound like you're starting your like side-group and are trying to hype your soap to anyone who'll listen.
No thanks.
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rrobs
Coffee lines up with the Way ministry. So we can't drink coffee? You are more anti-way than any way people I ever knew were pro-way. Well, maybe not more, but at least as much. You are the other side of the coin and that is the only difference between twi and gsc. You bristle at the mere thought of me saying something as simple as, "God is greater than any man." At least the the vibes I'm getting.
BTW, you took only a small part of my post to quote. You took it out of context. Really changed the whole meaning. Context was a concept I knew before VP, so it's not him channelling through me.
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Allan
Rrobs, I don't know if you're here as a plant, on a cause to win back G'spotters, here just to stir, here as a promo for the new/old restore & revive mob ( do none of them realize it's IMPOSSIBLE to revive a corpse that's been dead for decades anyhoo ) !!.....I really don't give a hoot.....I DO however agree with your beliefs concerning the Word of God. That puts me at odds with many on here, it's called give & take...heck I recently made a not insignificant donation to this site without even a thankyou from it's ' trustees' lol BUT that won't stop me from being involved here...hope you'll stick around, independant thought is good
 Â
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rrobs
Yes. I do tend to prefer people with whom I can discuss Bible doctrine as opposed to those who discuss VP. Everything in life is like that. Some for and some against. Most people tend to hang with those with whom share a mutual interest, as well as show mutual respect. So what is the significance in bringing up the whole "starting you're like side-group" (is that official gsc speak?). It seems pretty natural to me. What's the problem? Study, don't study. I don't care what you do.
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skyrider
There is NO problem......if you like one-trick ponies.
As of yet.......you STILL have not addressed any aspects of Jesus as savior, lord, mediator, intercessor, advocate, healer, righteous branch, etc. etc. Have you advanced in your relationship with the lord Jesus......or do you wear your pfal-pajamas to bed every night?
You have curtailed your wayspeak, but then with juvenile-frequency talk about gsc-speak as a diversion tactic.Â
So, you're offering a study guide on "the supremacy of God's Word".......and the twit-cult offers "the prevailing word."Â Â Hmmm.......is there a difference?
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chockfull
Wow. Â I "bristle" at the mere thought of you saying something as simple as "God is greater than any man?" Â
  The vibes you are getting must be cross-ingrained from something else in your life.  I know they aren't from reading content here that I write.  I did see that earlier however when you were asking me how I could tie together Biblical action to producing putrid fruit - you never read the content of my post, as it said almost exactly the opposite.  Perhaps a suggestion would be read something through a couple times before getting triggered?  It seems things contradicting what you are saying triggers you.
Why would I bristle at something that I believe like the statement in quotes?
Yes my quote was the concluding portion of your post. Â I did not include your life story as including entire posts make them more difficult to follow. Â I'm sure that leaving out your life story summary would change the meaning of any post, however, I don't think I took any of your thoughts out of context - I included the entire paragraph, including the accusatory "we" statements. Â Whatever of your post you feel I misrepresented, please explain away.
And here's a Bible verse for you:
Isaiah 5:20
Woe to  those who call evil good and good evil, who put darkness for light and light for darkness, who put bitter for sweet and sweet for bitter.
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rrobs
Well, God did magnify his word above all his name (Psalm 138:2). I'll say that much for sure. I think I have God and his word in the right compartments.
I wasn't trying to add anything of substance to any one individual, including you. I just put it out there. You know what I've found in life? Some will believe it and some won't. I don't even bother keeping score. I just know some will be yes and some no.
But what I know most about the matter is:
Isa 55:11,
So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it.
I don't feel any anxiety about knowing the results of my holding forth the word (I'll bet that's a major wayspeak violation). I just hold it forth (dang, there I go again. Sorry). Pretend I said it in a way that is comfortable for you. Anyway, you get the idea. I speak and if it is aligned with the stuff in the Bible, it will accomplish it's purpose. I suppose there is the question of what is in alignment. Whose alignment is right? How do you get to that alignment? Well, the same way everybody here reading this post understands what I'm saying. Perhaps they will miss nuances, but certainly they will get the gist. Most of the Bible is pretty simple. Easy sentences just like the ones I'm typing here. That would be my answer to that question. I guess it's come up and I've failed to answer it, but that's it.
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rrobs
Yes. Jesus is all of those things. If it's in the word I'm all for it. I do believe all those things are there, even the etc's. Of course.
Yes. I've advanced a lot.
No. I sleep in the buff with my buff wife. TMI?!!! Sorry, but you asked.
I guess I fell for the diversion tactic of gsc and lashed out with my own version. But it's true you know. There is a certain "mood" here. So what though? Everything got some kind mood. It doesn't bother me, and I understand. No big deal. Just an observation.
If you want, follow my posts in the basement and see if there is a difference. I'm prejudiced, so you judge for yourself if you want.
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chockfull
Matthew 7
15 “Watch out for false prophets. They come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ferocious wolves. 16 By their fruit you will recognize them. Do people pick grapes from thornbushes, or figs from thistles? 17 Likewise, every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. 18 A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, and a bad tree cannot bear good fruit. 19 Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20 Thus, by their fruit you will recognize them.
This is the Biblical context behind what I am speaking of when I talk about the fruit of people's lives, actions, etc. Â Notice how right in the same context it speaks of those that come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ferocious wolves.
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chockfull
skyrider hit the nail on the head. Â With Christianity the important part is Jesus Christ. Â One of the lies of the cult was to completely usurp Christ with the written Word - "the written Word takes the place of the absent Christ"
Well first off - if they would stop acting like a-holes, and more like Christ, maybe he wouldn't be so absent, at least in example.
Second, well a vast majority of fundamentalists do act like a-holes, so maybe they need a little I Cor 13 knowledge puffs up love builds up.
But hey, we all probably could use a healthy dose of that as well.
Â
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rrobs
I am terribly sorry if I've misread or misunderstood you in any way. In general, the web is not the best place to really convey one's thoughts and feelings to another. Gotta take that into account. At least I do.Â
I was mistaken about the bristle stuff. Good. But I think there are some who do hate the Bible because of VP. True? I really haven't figured it out yet. If I'm wrong, please tell me. I'll feel like an idiot for a second or two and then go on with a new perspective. Always liked new perspectives. I think they do a person good. Some people don't think that though.
I honestly forget the details on the context thing, but as I recall if the parts where I explicitly said I'm no better than anybody else, and giving a fairly detailed explanation of why I thought that had been included, the last paragraph would have been a different read. Now if I remember correctly, by not including more of my post in the quote, it implied I was holier than every body else. At least that was the exact conclusion you came to. Had you included the whole thing, it would be clear your conclusion was incorrect. That's the difference there.
Do you think I might be doing those things in Isaiah? I hope not. I think I'm OK with God. If I had been a Jew at the time of Isaiah, then I'd be afraid of that verse. Thank God I've been judged and found as righteous as him. Too bad the Jews didn't have that back then. But their day is coming, and a wonderful day it'll be!
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rrobs
God has given us the healthiest dose of love we're ever going to get. Another wonderful part of the new birth. God in Christ (2 Cor 5:19) and Christ is in you (Col 1:27). I think it says somewhere that God is love. He IS love and he's in you. We have all we're ever going to get. What we need to do is learn all about the ramifications of God in Christ in you. All of that is in the Bible. If someone where so inclined to read the Bible and study it, they will learn about God's love. The more you learn the more you act. Learn about love, you begin to love. I understand your sentiment, but maybe you meant we could exhibit a health dose of that love of God that dwells within to our brothers and sisters.
P.S. To all: please feel free to opt out of any of the "we"s in this post. It's just a writing style. The "we" doesn't have to include every single individual who reads this.
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