I'm all for gay rights. And whatever happens between two consenting adults in private is none of my business. But for Ted Haggard, who makes his living bashing homosexuals and telling people how to live their lives so they can get to heaven, to buy drugs and solicit the services of a male escort is just plain wrong.
I don't believe for a second the man bought meth, and threw it away, nor do I believe he just got a massage from Mike Jones. But even if he is telling the truth, he is still wrong, and should resign.
When I was a child, before TWI, I believed ordained clergy were called by God Himself, to serve, and help, and love His people. Then in TWI I saw why some became ordained. Aren't there any holy men (or women) any more?
In case you did not see the service held today at the New Life Church, here is a link to the letter read to the congregation by Haggard and his wife.
As I listened to the letters being read, and listened to the statements by the church elders, I couldn't help think what a different Way International there might be if VP or Craig had done the same. Nobody has to believe what New Life believes any more than believing what (or where) the teaches of TWI originated. It's the idea that it and many other lives got destroyed so easily because of the actions of these men and the BOT.
Oh, well. water well under the bridge. Here's the link if you want to see them.
What a breath of fresh air it must be -- in the middle of a horrible situation -- for that church, Haggard himself, and Mrs. Haggard to hit it head on with a candor we did not see in TWI.
Given that we are all, obviously, in need of a savior, I can't help but look at that guy with a sense of compassion, rather than indignation.
Most certainly, his removal from his job was necessary and appropriate, but reconciliation seems possible in a way that would not be if all the parties to the situation remained in adamant public denial of what took place and who was responsible.
It takes guts and a certain level of integrity to get that honest, which some cannot even do when so obviously caught in it.
btw, I wrote this after reading Haggard's letter, one by his wife to the congregation, and a press release from the church overseers.
it is unlikely that charges will be filed, although investigation continues. Lack of charges would not necessarily be because of any special treatment, but because of lack of prosecutorial evidence. the Denver police department have stated they are watching for a case, as the evidence unfolds.
Haggard admitted to sexual improprieties, and the meth deals, (although not admitting to ALL the charges ofthe accuser). It should be noted that this was not an isolated one time indiscretion. He admitted to it being an issue his whole adult life. It has been one dark, hypocritical closet this national spokeperson for the religious anti-equal rights movement has self righteously occupied.
Hopefully new doors of understanding can be opened between the closets occupied by the gay civil rights movement and the self ordained pious folks who claim to have God's only ear.
Hopefully new doors of understanding can be opened between the closets occupied by the gay civil rights movement and the self ordained pious folks who claim to have God's only ear.
~HAP
what's that line about monkeys and flying and butts?
Diane Sawyer interviewed Joyce Meyer this morning and she adamantly stated that they believe what the Bible says and that homosexuality is a sin. They (Evangelicals) will never welcome the gay community into their churches.
Did anyone else see the interview? I had a hard time looking at Joyce because she was blinking something awfully strange. Could have been the lighting or trying to stay awake that early in the morning, but it sure was strange, especially when they had the screen split with Diane on one side and Joyce on the other.
Sprawled, I don't remember any monkeys flying in that video clip Jonny posted. :blink: Is there another clip somewhere?
I wonder if there is some chronic denial that leads these sorts to leadership positions in church. As their addiction grows, so does their compensation and adamant denial, so they become especially vociferous ... which some mistake for being more filled with the spirit. Perhaps it is just a classic "me thinks thou dost protest too much" syndrome.
Was lcm's motivation more ego, and vp's sex, or whatever ...
Or did Haggard just misinterpret "laymen" ... :blink:
His letter of apology smacks of the same tone used by Jimmy Swaggert in Baton Rouge. He was turned in by a prostitute he had been seeing after he asked to have her 9 year old daughter have sex with them.
But of course since his ministry brought in $135 MILLION a year into the Baton Rouge economy all was forgiven and forgotten.
So we got popes with little boys, new life church with meth and guys, Swaggert with a 9 yr old girl and drambouie boy and his team of molesters and rapists.....what a nice picture of God... I don't know much about God but if he could cry he is doing it now...
after years of blaming homosexuals then to have a homosexual speak the truth he has been in denial about all of his adult life!
I wonder why the guy did tell? maybe he upped the ante and ted said no.
who knows.
the wife letter was sad and true, yes we do need a Saviour and im certain forgivness can happen from the Lord.
yet it haunts me that "he has struggled with this all his adult life" so can he be like so many in twi and say WEll im forgiven and the past is the past do nt speak of it?
well the letter do mean alot at least it is out now.
the religous part of these groups freak me out at what cost does a person have to keep up the status as a leader?
another thing in twi that would be different they would now divorce i think.
However, (and don't get me wrong I am as big a sinner as anyone here so I'm not pointing fingers from some lofty perch of spritual superiority)
Would there ever have been a letter of apology if he hadn't benn tattled on?
or would it have been business as usual?
would he ever have stepped down as leader of the evangelicals?
or would he just have found more creative ways to hide his behavior?
bottom line the only difference between him and VPW and LCM is what he did after he was caught -and the question might still be posed as to what the entire motivation of his response was. Personally I found it highly disengenuous. All about how he struggled with this dark part of his life.
I would have bveen more receptive to a letter that said in effect
"look, I like having sex with men, I have been hoodwinking eveyone around me for years so I could continue to do what I want at the expense of others. I've been caught and now I'm going to decide if I want to change or not."
Such honesty about his personal choices would have been refreshing.
I personally have dealt with persons of this sort. They come out and "confess' only as much as they need to to disarm people emotionally.
There really is no way to judge how much a person has repented...I'm not in a position to care in this case - but if I were a member of that congregation, I would have to decide - with or without the letter whether or not to forgive this man. I CERTAINLY would have a much, much bigger issue if I was asked to trust him.
Templelady - you are right about the letter being a good start. In the case of TWI I'm not sure a letter would have made a difference - we all heard lots and lots of confessions through the years - and many of us saw the very same things get repeated like they were being spewed from a copy machine......
Maybe this is why we are to be wise as serpents - Don't get cornered. If you do find yourself cornered - COIL AND STRIKE - and if you have to strike, BITE and take them down!
It's not about forgivness, I am the last person who would tell God someone shouldn't be forgiven or to advise someone not to forgive another.
What it is about is a pet peeve of mine
Blaming some great spritual struggle, debil spurt influence, spritual trapdoor, lack of believing, Satan, etc etc etc Whomever or Whatever for the choices we make.
everytime he dialed the number of the male prostitute he made the decision
everytime he asked to score some drugs he made the decision
everytime in engaged in "sexual immorality" (and drug use doesn't fall in that catagory folks) he made the decision
everytime VPW hopped in the motor coach he made the decision
Everytime he invited some sweet little gal to join him he made the decision
everytime he convinced, coerced, or forced sexual activities on said gal he made the decison
Everytime I decided to stay with my ex husband I made the decision
Everytime I huddled in fear as he beat me and the kids I made the decision
Everytime I gave in to TWI pressure as to how I should think I made the decision
Were there extenuating circumstances in my case you betcha--and if the truth be told, there are extenuating circumstances in the other two cases also--whether we know what they are or not
The problem is, in fact the problem with society today, IMO
we have managed to convince ourselves that the extenuating circumstances some how either nullify or change the choices we make
You were wading in spiritual struggles so you scored meth and had sex with another man. Spritual Struggles is the reason, The fact is you scored meth and had sex with another man.
The world failed to appreciate how great a person you were and what you deserved to receive for all your efforts so you coerced young woman into having sex with you. The failure of the world to appreciate you is the reason, the fact is you coerced young women into have sex with you
I was numb with fear and unaware of 75% of what was going on around me and so I stayed in a relationship where my children were physically, emotionally and sexually abused. The reason is I was numb with fear and unaware of 75% of what was going on around me. The fact is I remained in a relationship that was causing my chldren to be physically, emotionally, and sexually abused.
It used to be that you looked at the fact first and then after that had been acknowledged and apologies extended to the offended parties the reasons behand the action were discussed and forgiveness was granted
Now we just hop right over the facts, the offender in lieu of an straightforward apology for the facts primarily gives the reasons why the offender did what was done while avoiding as much as possible admission of what the offender did, then we go right to the forgiveness phase.
Sorry, but facts are facts. Forgiveness is not a right, it is earned, It is earned by honest forthrightness about what was done sans excuses, and repentence for what was done. Whether to take the reasons and extenuating circumstances into account rests solely in the hands of the parties wronged
When I saw this guy interviewed on TV, I knew he was lying at least about the meth. I worked in California and Missouri in factory settings that saw more than it's share of meth usage. In California we drug tested all new applicants, however in Missouri we did not. We started a factory in a small town 70 miles east of Kansas City that was ravaged with this problem. My bosses had moved this factory there with much help from the state of Missouri. The town had severe economic problems, so we received an economic package to hire locals. Many would have never been hired if we had stricter hiring standards. I saw several employees literally handcuffed and taken off due to failing drug tests required by their parole officers. If I were to characterize their bad behavior, it would be lying, deceit and denial. This is one powerful drug that really takes hold of it's victims...they will lie, cheat and steal to get this high. Ultimately, it destroys people's lives...it doesn't matter if you are one of the elite and powerful or live in a trailer.
Forgiveness is not a right, it is earned, It is earned by honest forthrightness about what was done sans excuses, and repentence for what was done.
I have to wonder: Doesn't this make the one who has been wronged dependent on the one who wronged him/her? If that person doesn't confess/repent, then the one wronged needs to carry the burden of not forgiving?
If it were me, I think I'd rather have the power to choose to forgive or not forgive regardless of whether the wrongdoer confesses/repents. If I wait for someone to "deserve" my forgiveness, I might carry that burden a long time. If I'm free to forgive or not, that seems to give me more choices.
I might be wacky, but that's what I"m thinking at the moment.
Forgiveness is something that is freely given. ... Not earned. ... Not expected. ... Not something that is demanded because "Gawd-a says so, so you're to do it!".
Given. At the *exclusive* discretion of the would-be-forgiver, and only should they decide to do that. Ie., it's a decision that is only theirs to make. ... Gad, how many times has some fundy laid some "forgive him, lest God not forgive you" guilt trip upon somebody who would otherwise would have held the perp accountable?
"But the Holy Bible sayeth that thou musteth..." Blow me. It's not your call. It's not mine. It's only the person who has been wronged who can make that call.
And I think that its a rather over-simplified (and non-thinking) rendering to presume that someone who does not 'forgive' then goes around with a life consuming bitterness in their heart, or is still under the power of the perp, simply because they do not forgive the individual. ... I guess that would make all the Jews in the world a bunch of r-e-a-l-l-y bitter people, because they haven't forgiven Hitler, ..... ya think? :unsure:
Just thinking aloud, doncha know. ... And I know I'm wacky.
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Belle
And Clinton didn't inhale or have sexual relations with that woman. <_<
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VeganXTC
I'm all for gay rights. And whatever happens between two consenting adults in private is none of my business. But for Ted Haggard, who makes his living bashing homosexuals and telling people how to live their lives so they can get to heaven, to buy drugs and solicit the services of a male escort is just plain wrong.
I don't believe for a second the man bought meth, and threw it away, nor do I believe he just got a massage from Mike Jones. But even if he is telling the truth, he is still wrong, and should resign.
When I was a child, before TWI, I believed ordained clergy were called by God Himself, to serve, and help, and love His people. Then in TWI I saw why some became ordained. Aren't there any holy men (or women) any more?
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topoftheworld
In case you did not see the service held today at the New Life Church, here is a link to the letter read to the congregation by Haggard and his wife.
As I listened to the letters being read, and listened to the statements by the church elders, I couldn't help think what a different Way International there might be if VP or Craig had done the same. Nobody has to believe what New Life believes any more than believing what (or where) the teaches of TWI originated. It's the idea that it and many other lives got destroyed so easily because of the actions of these men and the BOT.
Oh, well. water well under the bridge. Here's the link if you want to see them.
Haggard letter
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dmiller
Top -- Yea. It saddens me that their leader messed up.
Hope the congregation can move on.
Interesting conjecture, about docvic, and lcm.
Given the flamboyant *indiscressions* by them,
one wonders if twi could move forward, as a result.
My IMO?? I don't think so. Hasn't happened yet.
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Rocky
What a breath of fresh air it must be -- in the middle of a horrible situation -- for that church, Haggard himself, and Mrs. Haggard to hit it head on with a candor we did not see in TWI.
Given that we are all, obviously, in need of a savior, I can't help but look at that guy with a sense of compassion, rather than indignation.
Most certainly, his removal from his job was necessary and appropriate, but reconciliation seems possible in a way that would not be if all the parties to the situation remained in adamant public denial of what took place and who was responsible.
It takes guts and a certain level of integrity to get that honest, which some cannot even do when so obviously caught in it.
btw, I wrote this after reading Haggard's letter, one by his wife to the congregation, and a press release from the church overseers.
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dmiller
For what it is worth -- buying (or possessing Meth)
in Colorado -- is a *Felony 4* criminal offense.
I, for one, hope that the judicial system treats him
just like they would any other offender.
Yup -- under Grace -- but the Law still needs to be obeyed.
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HAPe4me
it is unlikely that charges will be filed, although investigation continues. Lack of charges would not necessarily be because of any special treatment, but because of lack of prosecutorial evidence. the Denver police department have stated they are watching for a case, as the evidence unfolds.
Haggard admitted to sexual improprieties, and the meth deals, (although not admitting to ALL the charges ofthe accuser). It should be noted that this was not an isolated one time indiscretion. He admitted to it being an issue his whole adult life. It has been one dark, hypocritical closet this national spokeperson for the religious anti-equal rights movement has self righteously occupied.
Hopefully new doors of understanding can be opened between the closets occupied by the gay civil rights movement and the self ordained pious folks who claim to have God's only ear.
~HAP
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sprawled out
what's that line about monkeys and flying and butts?
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Belle
Diane Sawyer interviewed Joyce Meyer this morning and she adamantly stated that they believe what the Bible says and that homosexuality is a sin. They (Evangelicals) will never welcome the gay community into their churches.
Did anyone else see the interview? I had a hard time looking at Joyce because she was blinking something awfully strange. Could have been the lighting or trying to stay awake that early in the morning, but it sure was strange, especially when they had the screen split with Diane on one side and Joyce on the other.
Sprawled, I don't remember any monkeys flying in that video clip Jonny posted. :blink: Is there another clip somewhere?
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rhino
I wonder if there is some chronic denial that leads these sorts to leadership positions in church. As their addiction grows, so does their compensation and adamant denial, so they become especially vociferous ... which some mistake for being more filled with the spirit. Perhaps it is just a classic "me thinks thou dost protest too much" syndrome.
Was lcm's motivation more ego, and vp's sex, or whatever ...
Or did Haggard just misinterpret "laymen" ... :blink:
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SafariVista
Letters of apology, explanation and love... something the leaders in TWI forgot do
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RumRunner
His letter of apology smacks of the same tone used by Jimmy Swaggert in Baton Rouge. He was turned in by a prostitute he had been seeing after he asked to have her 9 year old daughter have sex with them.
But of course since his ministry brought in $135 MILLION a year into the Baton Rouge economy all was forgiven and forgotten.
So we got popes with little boys, new life church with meth and guys, Swaggert with a 9 yr old girl and drambouie boy and his team of molesters and rapists.....what a nice picture of God... I don't know much about God but if he could cry he is doing it now...
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pond
In his letter he says not to blame his accuser..
after years of blaming homosexuals then to have a homosexual speak the truth he has been in denial about all of his adult life!
I wonder why the guy did tell? maybe he upped the ante and ted said no.
who knows.
the wife letter was sad and true, yes we do need a Saviour and im certain forgivness can happen from the Lord.
yet it haunts me that "he has struggled with this all his adult life" so can he be like so many in twi and say WEll im forgiven and the past is the past do nt speak of it?
well the letter do mean alot at least it is out now.
the religous part of these groups freak me out at what cost does a person have to keep up the status as a leader?
another thing in twi that would be different they would now divorce i think.
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templelady
the letter of apology is a good start
However, (and don't get me wrong I am as big a sinner as anyone here so I'm not pointing fingers from some lofty perch of spritual superiority)
Would there ever have been a letter of apology if he hadn't benn tattled on?
or would it have been business as usual?
would he ever have stepped down as leader of the evangelicals?
or would he just have found more creative ways to hide his behavior?
bottom line the only difference between him and VPW and LCM is what he did after he was caught -and the question might still be posed as to what the entire motivation of his response was. Personally I found it highly disengenuous. All about how he struggled with this dark part of his life.
I would have bveen more receptive to a letter that said in effect
"look, I like having sex with men, I have been hoodwinking eveyone around me for years so I could continue to do what I want at the expense of others. I've been caught and now I'm going to decide if I want to change or not."
Such honesty about his personal choices would have been refreshing.
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RumRunner
Well said Templelady
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doojable
I personally have dealt with persons of this sort. They come out and "confess' only as much as they need to to disarm people emotionally.
There really is no way to judge how much a person has repented...I'm not in a position to care in this case - but if I were a member of that congregation, I would have to decide - with or without the letter whether or not to forgive this man. I CERTAINLY would have a much, much bigger issue if I was asked to trust him.
Templelady - you are right about the letter being a good start. In the case of TWI I'm not sure a letter would have made a difference - we all heard lots and lots of confessions through the years - and many of us saw the very same things get repeated like they were being spewed from a copy machine......
Maybe this is why we are to be wise as serpents - Don't get cornered. If you do find yourself cornered - COIL AND STRIKE - and if you have to strike, BITE and take them down!
All this while being harmless as a dove -
Geeze - so much to keep track of......
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outofdafog
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dmiller
because he *trafficked* (sp?) in drugs -- he should go to prison,
just like an average *Joe* caught in the act.
Meebe he might have a *ministry* behind bars.
He is no better, or worse, than any other criminal.
He should be treated like everyone else.
Do the crime --- Serve the time. Period.
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HAPe4me
ya can't send someone to prison without the evidence, even if the glove fits.
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watersedge
last i read forgivenes was 7 times seventy
not that i condone drug or alcohol abuse
guess if the shoe fits
mete out the punishment
that's what jesus said
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templelady
It's not about forgivness, I am the last person who would tell God someone shouldn't be forgiven or to advise someone not to forgive another.
What it is about is a pet peeve of mine
Blaming some great spritual struggle, debil spurt influence, spritual trapdoor, lack of believing, Satan, etc etc etc Whomever or Whatever for the choices we make.
everytime he dialed the number of the male prostitute he made the decision
everytime he asked to score some drugs he made the decision
everytime in engaged in "sexual immorality" (and drug use doesn't fall in that catagory folks) he made the decision
everytime VPW hopped in the motor coach he made the decision
Everytime he invited some sweet little gal to join him he made the decision
everytime he convinced, coerced, or forced sexual activities on said gal he made the decison
Everytime I decided to stay with my ex husband I made the decision
Everytime I huddled in fear as he beat me and the kids I made the decision
Everytime I gave in to TWI pressure as to how I should think I made the decision
Were there extenuating circumstances in my case you betcha--and if the truth be told, there are extenuating circumstances in the other two cases also--whether we know what they are or not
The problem is, in fact the problem with society today, IMO
we have managed to convince ourselves that the extenuating circumstances some how either nullify or change the choices we make
You were wading in spiritual struggles so you scored meth and had sex with another man. Spritual Struggles is the reason, The fact is you scored meth and had sex with another man.
The world failed to appreciate how great a person you were and what you deserved to receive for all your efforts so you coerced young woman into having sex with you. The failure of the world to appreciate you is the reason, the fact is you coerced young women into have sex with you
I was numb with fear and unaware of 75% of what was going on around me and so I stayed in a relationship where my children were physically, emotionally and sexually abused. The reason is I was numb with fear and unaware of 75% of what was going on around me. The fact is I remained in a relationship that was causing my chldren to be physically, emotionally, and sexually abused.
It used to be that you looked at the fact first and then after that had been acknowledged and apologies extended to the offended parties the reasons behand the action were discussed and forgiveness was granted
Now we just hop right over the facts, the offender in lieu of an straightforward apology for the facts primarily gives the reasons why the offender did what was done while avoiding as much as possible admission of what the offender did, then we go right to the forgiveness phase.
Sorry, but facts are facts. Forgiveness is not a right, it is earned, It is earned by honest forthrightness about what was done sans excuses, and repentence for what was done. Whether to take the reasons and extenuating circumstances into account rests solely in the hands of the parties wronged
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Calflor
When I saw this guy interviewed on TV, I knew he was lying at least about the meth. I worked in California and Missouri in factory settings that saw more than it's share of meth usage. In California we drug tested all new applicants, however in Missouri we did not. We started a factory in a small town 70 miles east of Kansas City that was ravaged with this problem. My bosses had moved this factory there with much help from the state of Missouri. The town had severe economic problems, so we received an economic package to hire locals. Many would have never been hired if we had stricter hiring standards. I saw several employees literally handcuffed and taken off due to failing drug tests required by their parole officers. If I were to characterize their bad behavior, it would be lying, deceit and denial. This is one powerful drug that really takes hold of it's victims...they will lie, cheat and steal to get this high. Ultimately, it destroys people's lives...it doesn't matter if you are one of the elite and powerful or live in a trailer.
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Linda Z
I'm thinking aloud here.
I have to wonder: Doesn't this make the one who has been wronged dependent on the one who wronged him/her? If that person doesn't confess/repent, then the one wronged needs to carry the burden of not forgiving?
If it were me, I think I'd rather have the power to choose to forgive or not forgive regardless of whether the wrongdoer confesses/repents. If I wait for someone to "deserve" my forgiveness, I might carry that burden a long time. If I'm free to forgive or not, that seems to give me more choices.
I might be wacky, but that's what I"m thinking at the moment.
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GarthP2000
I got a better one:
Forgiveness is something that is freely given. ... Not earned. ... Not expected. ... Not something that is demanded because "Gawd-a says so, so you're to do it!".
Given. At the *exclusive* discretion of the would-be-forgiver, and only should they decide to do that. Ie., it's a decision that is only theirs to make. ... Gad, how many times has some fundy laid some "forgive him, lest God not forgive you" guilt trip upon somebody who would otherwise would have held the perp accountable?
"But the Holy Bible sayeth that thou musteth..."
Blow me. It's not your call. It's not mine. It's only the person who has been wronged who can make that call.
And I think that its a rather over-simplified (and non-thinking) rendering to presume that someone who does not 'forgive' then goes around with a life consuming bitterness in their heart, or is still under the power of the perp, simply because they do not forgive the individual. ... I guess that would make all the Jews in the world a bunch of r-e-a-l-l-y bitter people, because they haven't forgiven Hitler, ..... ya think? :unsure:
Just thinking aloud, doncha know. ... And I know I'm wacky.
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