I dunno, Rascal, I became born again when I was 11 years old and I can tell you that the fruit in my life was injected with Everclear and served with kool-aid, among other things, during my college years. I know I would never have been convicted of being born again during that time. Did I still "believe" - yep - always have, but it didn't affect how I acted or lived.
Heck, even during my TWIt years I'd say I was no "child of God" the way He would like for me to have been. I certainly didn't have any "good fruit" in my life then....depression, oppression, illness, panic attacks, stress....
I also know that when I was growing up I very firmly believed my Daddy would kick my butt if I did some things that I proceeded to do anyway. :ph34r:
I'm not saying that good fruit shouldn't follow those who are born again, but that it's not a precursor to determining if one is born again. :) There are rotten Christians just as there are awesome non-Christians. It's those who have rotten fruit in their lives, regardless of whether they "believe" or not, that I try to avoid. Those with good fruit, again - regardless of whether they "believe" or not, that I gravitate toward.
Even the scriptures where Jesus talks about fruit - isn't about being saved or not. It's kind of like those seeds that fall by the wayside. They hear and believe, but some shrivel up under pressure, others endure for a while but then get carried away, others become unfruitful because of "the cares of the world". All those seeds are born again folks, just sadly, most don't fall on fertile ground.
Leastways that's what I see in it. :unsure: But this wouldn't be the first time I was wrong.
It's the phrase "confesses Jesus as Lord", that I am referring to. If I hire you as an employee and was your boss, if you confessed me as your boss (while at work only of course) you would do what I said (in regards to the job). In Romans 10:9 it is not a cut and dried as that, but the idea is the same. I would at least begin to change my behavior to line up with what Jesus Christ said I was to do. Will I succeed every time? No! Will I do it every time? No! It is a learning experience and an ongoing one. I have at no time said that this change in behavior is an instant thing. (Wouldn't it be great if it was?) I have known people who have taken years to show any change in behavior, even a small one, but I never doubted that they were born again.
We have bad habits and attitudes that we have to unlearn and it takes time. Praise God that he looks at the heart, and not at our actions. So to answer you question, if a person really believes and confesses according to Roman's 10:9 & 10 he is saved, born again he will, because he has confessed Jesus as Lord, begin working to change his behavior and if he is like me, often he will fail terribly. When I left TWI in '76 I ran from God for over 13 years, but I still knew I was born again. My heart still nagged at me to correct myself and come back to God. Even when I had hardened my heart, He still guided someone to me, to remind me that He loved me. During those 13 years I did some things that were horrible, Drugs, booze, etc. My behavior actually changed for the worse, but my heart still wanted to change for the better, and God looks at the heart. I'll let Him decide who is born again, it's not my place.
Just noticed Belle's question about my definition of believing; I don't really have one. I really prefer "faith" over "believe" because it has a connotation of faithfulness, trust, as well as confidence and steadfastness. I think this lines up more with the idea behind the Greek word "pistis," which is a noun and not a verb. I would personally define it as "that which you believe, trust, and have confidence in." In its verb form I would define it as "having confidence and trusting in". But I think of faith as different from believing, because I may believe someone, but not trust them or have confidence in them. But if I trust them, or have faith in them, I will believe them also. Of course I could be wrong in my understanding; I would be stupid not to be aware of that possibility.
Belle, I"m not as legalistic as you make me sound. I really do agree with your response to rascal.
I understand that those of the flesh....those whom do the things listed in galations.....many things that our leaders habitually indulged in....that it states that they will have NO inheritance in the kingdome of God...period.
Yet the folks who do these things still call themselves christian.
I think maybe we just don`t really understand *born again* and *fruit of the spirit*
Maybe you can be born again and still be of the flesh and have no inheritance in the kingdom of God...
Shoot, vpw and lcm and many of twi`s leaders won`t if what the scriptures say is true in galatians....shrug.
I don`t know. I just know that I have met genuine christian whom have been changed dramatically on the inside when born again....and that they don`t have issues with drugs or rape or cruelty or drunkeness........those things hold any appeal for these folks...and yet twi leaders consistantly are *challenged* in these areas.
I have to wonder if twi`s theories and formulas might be flawed concerning the new birth and what it takes to be a genuine Christian, rather than one who just wears the lable that marches boldly up to Jesus on judgement day and is told to *depart for I knew you not*
Pistis... A Greek word.. But from a Hebrew perspective.. I hate the definition The Way gives, I hate the definition the dictionary gives. I just hate the definition. Hehe..
The devils believe yet they tremble..
So WHO CARES ABOUT BELIEVING!
TO me.. Pistis.. Is not about believing.. Many people believe so many things without action. To me Pisitis doesn't mean faith..
I see both of those revolving around the mind and the knowledge and the mindset.. Screw that. You can know and even "believe" or have "faith" that everything was said was true, that don't change anything!
However, I think, and I DID SAY "I THINK", not THUS SAYETH GOD ALMIGHTY, but I think., so you are welcome to think differently, or bang me over the head for "not thinking", but still I think, (or maybe as LCM always said [people think they think, but they don't think[.. Umm anyways.. I think! Hehe.. I think, pistis is more of a TRUST.. A leaning on him. A putting your weight, your life, your everything into the hands of whatever it is you are trusting..
For me, that's how I'd much rather render pistis.. Trust.. (Hebrew word that actually means to "lean and put your weight on something] Trust in God with all thine heart, and lean not too thine own understanding.. Knowledge get's you puffed up, and believing doesn't do any better, but trusting puts your life on the line because either your trust and leaning on something stable and it will hold you up and withstand the atttacks, or your trust and leaning is on shaky ground and you will be falling soon..
Where's your trust and who are you leaning on? If it's God, then He will hold you up! So the question is, are you really trusting Him!
To quote TWI's stance. "The question isn't whether or not God loves you.........but, do you love God! ! ! !"
I personally find I Peter 1:23 covers the topic best. If you read the four Gospels as though they were doctrine, you will never get it right imho. The Gospels were the conclusion to the Old Testament Law allowing us to live in Grace. Read Romans and Ephesians for the full context of what that means. According to your "insight", I Thessalonians 4:13ff will not apply to a single Wayfer, current or former.
That would be contradicting the whole Bible if even one was saved. And it's a safe bet there were more proportionately saved in TWI than some of the churches I've observed.
I don't know the heart of every person that ever darkened the doors of TWI, but I know God does! ! ! ! He will be the ultimate judge. Certainly not you or me.
So many of the denominations ignore the administration of Grace and teach the letters in red. It makes me ill to even listen to the stuff they teach. I've even hears some read with emphasis, italicized words.
Hence; Why I don't go to church! ! !
It appears you were never in TWI and though you have every right to be here, I would strongly suggest you avoid doctrinal issues. You may find it more friendly when you grab your coffee and donut.
From here on out, I will avoid the doctrinal issues in the forum as well.
Please, don't blow me your unholy kiss or any kiss at all ! !
YIdon't -- You have OBVIOUSLY NOT read ROY'S STORY.
A snippet of it here for your perusal --- from the above link:
In 1980 I got into a group called “The Way Ministry” and took a class called “Power for Abundantly Living.” This class taught me some ways to help me understand what I have read or was reading.
But this was a cult but at that time I believe it was the best thing that ever happen to me. I begin to read the bible hour after hour reading a whole book before stopping. The girl that asked me to come was a WOW a ambassador like program which is a person sent for a year to a new place to push the class I took.
Please read it all, before you comment further, eh??
YIdon't--------Anger is like a thief. It will steal from you whatever it can whenever the opportunity presents itself. If you choose to avoid the doctrinal discussions so be it, but you must ask yourself if you have done so by your own choice or if anger has twisted your arm and forced you into submission.
Roy------I don't always understand your posts but they never fail to give me food for thought.
I don't know the heart of every person that ever darkened the doors of TWI, but I know God does! ! ! ! He will be the ultimate judge. Certainly not you or me.
To quote TWI's stance. "The question isn't whether or not God loves you.........but, do you love God! ! ! !"
personally I'm sick to death of the question "how much do you love God?"
I'll never love God like he deserves. ever.
however, it is supremely important for me to be reminded of the fact that God loves me. twi didn't show it. I wondered if God was really out there when I left twi after facing the demons that kept me in twi for so many years.
Roy is one of those people who reminds me that God loves.
Roy, you freaked me out when I first read your posts but I quickly understood what a beautiful heart you have. I'll take your holy kisses blowing my way any day.
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Belle
I dunno, Rascal, I became born again when I was 11 years old and I can tell you that the fruit in my life was injected with Everclear and served with kool-aid, among other things, during my college years. I know I would never have been convicted of being born again during that time. Did I still "believe" - yep - always have, but it didn't affect how I acted or lived.
Heck, even during my TWIt years I'd say I was no "child of God" the way He would like for me to have been. I certainly didn't have any "good fruit" in my life then....depression, oppression, illness, panic attacks, stress....
I also know that when I was growing up I very firmly believed my Daddy would kick my butt if I did some things that I proceeded to do anyway. :ph34r:
I'm not saying that good fruit shouldn't follow those who are born again, but that it's not a precursor to determining if one is born again. :) There are rotten Christians just as there are awesome non-Christians. It's those who have rotten fruit in their lives, regardless of whether they "believe" or not, that I try to avoid. Those with good fruit, again - regardless of whether they "believe" or not, that I gravitate toward.
Even the scriptures where Jesus talks about fruit - isn't about being saved or not. It's kind of like those seeds that fall by the wayside. They hear and believe, but some shrivel up under pressure, others endure for a while but then get carried away, others become unfruitful because of "the cares of the world". All those seeds are born again folks, just sadly, most don't fall on fertile ground.
Leastways that's what I see in it. :unsure: But this wouldn't be the first time I was wrong.
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rascal
Belle, I don`t know if *born again* and *of the spirit* are synonymous (sp?)
I just know that we were instructed that *by their fruits ye shall know them*
I have met genuine Christians in and out of twi as well as folks that claim to be but were more evil than the most rqank of unbelievers....
I have met people who`s fruit in their lives would indicate that they were *of the spirit* though they eshew the name of Christian....
I think if it were as cut and dry as stating a belief or wearing a lable, or something that was achieved by completeing a certain set of actions...
Jesus wouldn`t have told us that we needed to examine a person`s fruit in order to recognise one another...shrug
Jesus said that there were going to be a lot of people that claimed to have *known* him...and that he will tell them to *depart for I knew you not*
I think that there might be more to it than the recitation of a few verses or the statement of a particular belief system...shrug
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Belle
Rascal, I concur. :) That's why I question Keith's private interpretation. Everything just isn't as cut & dry or black & white as way-brainers think.
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year2027
God first
Beloved Belle and rascal
God loves you two my dear friends
Born again is a statement that I believe most missunderstand which I believe should be
seed is planted and if I run a good race I shall be born again
I think the seed is planted -- the gift of Christ in us the hope of Glory
not a sure thing of glory but a hope that we can live and die for Christ
then the fruit is a sign that one is growing in truth
not that new birth has come
like speaking in tongues is only a sign that the seed was planted in us
I believe the new birth comes when we changed from flesh to a being like God -- immortality or incorruption both same Greek word
the second death is when the child is born dead
We live and we die with Christ -- so I believe new birth comes after we die with Christ
because if once we spoke in tongues or prophesied we were save some could not say I spoke in tongues in your name or prophesied in your name
So the question is when does birth come and what is confession or when is connfession done
I say birth comes after your last breath the last sound you make like a mightly wind
I say confession takes a life time -- its a life style not just words -actions with good fruit
A tree can bear a good apple but still be dying but a tree that is full of apples is living
I did too after I first spoke in tongues or was batized with a committed
to doing right (like Rom 10:9) I did many un-godly things in my life too
we shall know them that they have seed or that they are born again
I say that they have seed
but some good seed fall on the way side
but who am I but a man
thank you
with love and a holy kiss blowing your way Roy
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Keith
It's the phrase "confesses Jesus as Lord", that I am referring to. If I hire you as an employee and was your boss, if you confessed me as your boss (while at work only of course) you would do what I said (in regards to the job). In Romans 10:9 it is not a cut and dried as that, but the idea is the same. I would at least begin to change my behavior to line up with what Jesus Christ said I was to do. Will I succeed every time? No! Will I do it every time? No! It is a learning experience and an ongoing one. I have at no time said that this change in behavior is an instant thing. (Wouldn't it be great if it was?) I have known people who have taken years to show any change in behavior, even a small one, but I never doubted that they were born again.
We have bad habits and attitudes that we have to unlearn and it takes time. Praise God that he looks at the heart, and not at our actions. So to answer you question, if a person really believes and confesses according to Roman's 10:9 & 10 he is saved, born again he will, because he has confessed Jesus as Lord, begin working to change his behavior and if he is like me, often he will fail terribly. When I left TWI in '76 I ran from God for over 13 years, but I still knew I was born again. My heart still nagged at me to correct myself and come back to God. Even when I had hardened my heart, He still guided someone to me, to remind me that He loved me. During those 13 years I did some things that were horrible, Drugs, booze, etc. My behavior actually changed for the worse, but my heart still wanted to change for the better, and God looks at the heart. I'll let Him decide who is born again, it's not my place.
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Keith
Just noticed Belle's question about my definition of believing; I don't really have one. I really prefer "faith" over "believe" because it has a connotation of faithfulness, trust, as well as confidence and steadfastness. I think this lines up more with the idea behind the Greek word "pistis," which is a noun and not a verb. I would personally define it as "that which you believe, trust, and have confidence in." In its verb form I would define it as "having confidence and trusting in". But I think of faith as different from believing, because I may believe someone, but not trust them or have confidence in them. But if I trust them, or have faith in them, I will believe them also. Of course I could be wrong in my understanding; I would be stupid not to be aware of that possibility.
Belle, I"m not as legalistic as you make me sound. I really do agree with your response to rascal.
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rascal
I understand that those of the flesh....those whom do the things listed in galations.....many things that our leaders habitually indulged in....that it states that they will have NO inheritance in the kingdome of God...period.
Yet the folks who do these things still call themselves christian.
I think maybe we just don`t really understand *born again* and *fruit of the spirit*
Maybe you can be born again and still be of the flesh and have no inheritance in the kingdom of God...
Shoot, vpw and lcm and many of twi`s leaders won`t if what the scriptures say is true in galatians....shrug.
I don`t know. I just know that I have met genuine christian whom have been changed dramatically on the inside when born again....and that they don`t have issues with drugs or rape or cruelty or drunkeness........those things hold any appeal for these folks...and yet twi leaders consistantly are *challenged* in these areas.
I have to wonder if twi`s theories and formulas might be flawed concerning the new birth and what it takes to be a genuine Christian, rather than one who just wears the lable that marches boldly up to Jesus on judgement day and is told to *depart for I knew you not*
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year2027
God first
Beloved Keith and rascal
God loves us all my dear friends
Keith I understand what you are saying my friends at times the right way to phase things is hard my friend
confession is got a lot of action to it like all of us are trying to show
I dot think we can understand *fruit of the spirit* but we enjoy what it brings or gives
thank you
with love and a holy kiss blowing your way Roy
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TrustAndObey
Hmmmmmm... That's about all I have to say..
Pistis... A Greek word.. But from a Hebrew perspective.. I hate the definition The Way gives, I hate the definition the dictionary gives. I just hate the definition. Hehe..
The devils believe yet they tremble..
So WHO CARES ABOUT BELIEVING!
TO me.. Pistis.. Is not about believing.. Many people believe so many things without action. To me Pisitis doesn't mean faith..
I see both of those revolving around the mind and the knowledge and the mindset.. Screw that. You can know and even "believe" or have "faith" that everything was said was true, that don't change anything!
However, I think, and I DID SAY "I THINK", not THUS SAYETH GOD ALMIGHTY, but I think., so you are welcome to think differently, or bang me over the head for "not thinking", but still I think, (or maybe as LCM always said [people think they think, but they don't think[.. Umm anyways.. I think! Hehe.. I think, pistis is more of a TRUST.. A leaning on him. A putting your weight, your life, your everything into the hands of whatever it is you are trusting..
For me, that's how I'd much rather render pistis.. Trust.. (Hebrew word that actually means to "lean and put your weight on something] Trust in God with all thine heart, and lean not too thine own understanding.. Knowledge get's you puffed up, and believing doesn't do any better, but trusting puts your life on the line because either your trust and leaning on something stable and it will hold you up and withstand the atttacks, or your trust and leaning is on shaky ground and you will be falling soon..
Where's your trust and who are you leaning on? If it's God, then He will hold you up! So the question is, are you really trusting Him!
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rascal
Trust and Obey, that is beautiful.
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year2027
God first
Beloved TrustAndObey and rascal
God loves you my dear friend
yes believe to point you trust it to be a fact
yes I like that too
thank you
with love and a holy kiss blowing your way Roy
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DogLover
About "believing" ... it has helped me to understand it as "trust" ... remaining firm on the promises of God.
Too much wrong teaching about manipulating our minds to push God around is associated with the word "believing" for me ...
Hope this helps someone.
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year2027
God first
Beloved DogLover
God loves you my dear friend
Glad you joined us my friend
thank you
with love and a holy kiss blowing your way Roy
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dmiller
I agree. :)
To trust, or to *believe in God's ability to do* is one thing.
To manipulate by mental gymnastics is something else entirely.
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year2027
God first
Beloved dmiller
God loves you my dear friend
yes "To trust, or to *believe in God's ability to do* is one thing.
To manipulate by mental gymnastics is something else entirely."
thank you
with love and a holy kiss blowing your way Roy
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YIdon'tgotochurch
2027
enough with the "God loves you" stuff.
To quote TWI's stance. "The question isn't whether or not God loves you.........but, do you love God! ! ! !"
I personally find I Peter 1:23 covers the topic best. If you read the four Gospels as though they were doctrine, you will never get it right imho. The Gospels were the conclusion to the Old Testament Law allowing us to live in Grace. Read Romans and Ephesians for the full context of what that means. According to your "insight", I Thessalonians 4:13ff will not apply to a single Wayfer, current or former.
That would be contradicting the whole Bible if even one was saved. And it's a safe bet there were more proportionately saved in TWI than some of the churches I've observed.
I don't know the heart of every person that ever darkened the doors of TWI, but I know God does! ! ! ! He will be the ultimate judge. Certainly not you or me.
So many of the denominations ignore the administration of Grace and teach the letters in red. It makes me ill to even listen to the stuff they teach. I've even hears some read with emphasis, italicized words.
Hence; Why I don't go to church! ! !
It appears you were never in TWI and though you have every right to be here, I would strongly suggest you avoid doctrinal issues. You may find it more friendly when you grab your coffee and donut.
From here on out, I will avoid the doctrinal issues in the forum as well.
Please, don't blow me your unholy kiss or any kiss at all ! !
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dmiller
YIdon't -- You have OBVIOUSLY NOT read ROY'S STORY.
A snippet of it here for your perusal --- from the above link:
Please read it all, before you comment further, eh??
Peace, Love, and Bluegrass.
David
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year2027
God first
Beloved YIdon'tgotochurch
God loves you my dear friend
My friend my style is my bussiness and your style is your bussiness
I know God loves us because I talk to him my dear friend God wanted even the devil to repent way back but he did not
I have read the whole bible 100's of time alone with many books not in the bible and I live mostly in the doctrine area
I was in twi but it does not matter if you believe me or not while there are eyewitness to it
like Tom Burke, John Stroyer of two differ X-WAy movements that know me well
I guess I will stop here
thank you
with love and a holy kiss blowing your way Roy
Beloved dmiller
God loves us all my dear friend
yes Peace, Love, and Bluegrass
I love Bluegrass music my friend while I only listen its great
wanted to play but never took time to learn to play any music thing maybe one day I will learn but more now I enjoy listening
thank you
with love and a holy kiss blowing your way Roy
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waysider
YIdon't--------Anger is like a thief. It will steal from you whatever it can whenever the opportunity presents itself. If you choose to avoid the doctrinal discussions so be it, but you must ask yourself if you have done so by your own choice or if anger has twisted your arm and forced you into submission.
Roy------I don't always understand your posts but they never fail to give me food for thought.
Holy hugs to ya,Bro!
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ex10
Y,
It seems you've misjudged our friend Roy. :(
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waterbuffalo
Thanks, Dave :)
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Belle
Y, obviously you don't know our beloved Roy very well. :) He's got the biggest heart of anyone here and is an excellent example of God's love.
We would all do well to learn from his example.
You don't have to agree with him, but there's no reason to be cruel.
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year2027
God first
Beloved waysider, ex10, waterbuffalo, and Belle
God loves us all my dear friends
thanks waysider for the holy hugs
your my true friend ex10
Yes Belle thanks for calling me beloved that blessed my heart
thank you
with love and a holy kiss blowing your way Roy
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potato
personally I'm sick to death of the question "how much do you love God?"
I'll never love God like he deserves. ever.
however, it is supremely important for me to be reminded of the fact that God loves me. twi didn't show it. I wondered if God was really out there when I left twi after facing the demons that kept me in twi for so many years.
Roy is one of those people who reminds me that God loves.
Roy, you freaked me out when I first read your posts but I quickly understood what a beautiful heart you have. I'll take your holy kisses blowing my way any day.
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