My cousin Karen's mother sounds like Bridget's mother. Or at least in part makes me think of her.
Karen would come home from school to have her mother passed out on the couch smelling of alcohol. Karen was never allowed to have friends or to go over anyone's house -- I believe it was in an effort to KEEP THE SECRET. One day a neighbor was playing with Karen and they went into the house and Aunt MArilyn beat the crap out of Karen, screaming in her face that she was an evil child.
Well, Karen grew-up with no friends and very alone. At the age of around 9 my Aunt Marilyn sat Karen down and read her a suicide note that she (my Aunt) had written. In it, she blamed her rotten little girl, Karen, for why she decided to take her life. She said because she was so horrible, and impoissible to love, that my Aunt just wanted to kill herself to get away from her.
Now, this little girl was NOT a bad kid. She was cute and sweet.
Shortly there after, Karen came home and her mother was unconsious on the floor. She thought she was dead because she was such a bad child. She called her Dad (my blood uncle) and he came home and discovered she was just drunk again.
When my Uncle left for work, the mother sobered she beat Karen to an inch of her life, and threatened her to NEVER call anyone again ever.
So, Karen grew up finding her mother motionless on the floor, day after day, and she tried to determine if she was dead or alive. Karen would sit quietly in a chair in fear of that woman.
And that horror of a human being would threaten her with suicide as punishment on a regular basis.
I don't know how Karen survived. Her mother died of a heart attack. But that threat of suicide paralyzed Karen.
Today, Karen is getting her Doctorate in Psychiatric medicine.
I am unsure how this story fits in here, but your account of Bridget brought this to mind.
"Perhaps some suicidal people are just unfixable. Just like some people who have cancer, or heart attacks, or even the flu are unfixable. Perhaps mental illness, as well as physical illness, is sometimes enough to kill us no matter what we try."
NLL
You said the above.
I do think you might be correct. Some people, for whatever reason, just cannot break free of their "demons" so to speak.
My high school love got into drugs and did drugs, incl. heroine, and then methodone his whole life. It was his problem and his first love. He just could never climb out of it. I think some people just can't "get out"
It is a struggle and perhaps they just do not have any "fight" left in them.
For years, I thought if only I had done this or that maybe he wouldn't have been an addict his whole life.
Then, one day I realized I am not that powerful. The desire to change or to battle some of life's battles must come from a place deep within us -- individually.
Mike could have only wom against his "problems" when his desire to LIVE was stronger than his desire to destroy himself.
WE can try, sometimes a friend is helpful, or to go into a hospital but sometimes they just fall back again.
I think that is why suicide is an act of desperation but can be viewed as selfish by some. Cause they do not see the affects on others. However, to be so desperate, one does not believe they mean anything to anyone....so it seems okay
anyone in such despair may not be acting selfishly in my humble opinion
i hope darling shannon realizes that it may have been her dad's only option for peace - even if just in his own mind - but that's the only place we live
anyone in such despair may not be acting selfishly in my humble opinion
i hope darling shannon realizes that it may have been her dad's only option for peace - even if just in his own mind - but that's the only place we live
It took me over 10 years to forgive my mother for deserting me. I had to get to a place where I could see it from her point of view and excath, darlin - I think you hit it on the head right there. I no longer think my mom was selfish in her mind, it just felt like extreme selfishness to me at the time when I was left without her. Now I wish I had known how to reach her and give her what she needed to feel ok about accepting help, especially psychiatric.
I'm so thankful that it's no longer a stigma against people to seek psychiatric help.
I agree with each and every word you spoke here, ex!
Ex: That's what I am saying. It may be viewed as selfish by some. I have heard it referred to as an extremely selfish act. But when you are that desperate I don't think you feel you are of any value anymore.
Heck, if it wasn't for your phone call during the evil female minister days I would have done it. I never felt more worthless and unvalued.
But some see it a selfish because you leave those around you in such a bad state. But believe me, I wasn't thinking about anything but how worthless and what a nothing I was, after that horror of a female minister set me up, so I would shut-up about her sex secrets.
A razor blade seemed to be a welcome relief. I am glad God had you call. And yet Ex, you probably do not even recall the call.
I am just so sorry anyone ever feels desperate enough to go through with it.
However, to be so desperate, one does not believe they mean anything to anyone....so it seems okay
Interesting Dot~
My friend Bridget would seem almost shocked to hear me say 'yes, let's meet & ride bikes'... she thought I wouldn't want to go anywhere with her... but what could be more fun than riding down to the forbidden GRAVEL PIT, tearing down that hill with no reserve? .... heck, the other girls were indoors doing something 'stupid'
And her Mom was so much older than all the other Moms... maybe in her late 60's when we were in high school.
Bridget's brother had been gone for YEARS...
Bridget didn't speak bad of her mother, that wasn't ALLOWED!... she internalized everything, making problems her own fault. She didn't have any other friends... plus she was very down about having bad acne :(
I feel like posting a picture of us... maybe a little later~
To this day, I am a down right pest (though I am generally later thanked) when I feel someone is in danger.
Maybe we need more "pests" like you.
I suppose you can spend too much time and energy being a "pest"...like becoming a dumping ground for someone else's personal woes. Epecially over time. More especially if someone doesnt appear to be in any danger at all. It can wear pretty thin, can't it?
On the other hand, I think of the "no one saw it coming" type remarks such as Paw and Lori offered.
I think that is why suicide is an act of desperation but can be viewed as selfish by some. Cause they do not see the affects on others. However, to be so desperate, one does not believe they mean anything to anyone....so it seems okay
just a thought....whether or not they realize they mean something to others. could what they mean to themselves be as important? more so?
the only time in my life i ever considered suicide was after i'd been piled on by "leadership" for an infraction that they managed to turn into a deep, dark, hopeless character flaw. i remember thinking i was no good to God, and useless to people, so suicide seemed the reasonable course. it was only the thought of my then two-year old son growing up without a father that pulled me out of it.
suicide had always been the furthest thing from my mind and heart, but those "loving" folks with whom i served managed to instill the idea in me. just makes me wonder how many people were specifically put on that path by twi leadership. and how many survived their "counsel."
I was told that it was a direction they would put a believer on. It was better to loose one than have the team injured.
They purposely tried to push me in that direction. I know how you felt. It was TWI's top notch secret group that were willing to sacrifice us.
I cannot tell you how I feel when I think of those ice cold b$tches and b@stards willing to "murder" you, by directing you to suicide, in order to prevail, keep their dirty secrets or remain unchallanged.
The thoughts that lead to suicide are sneaky and uneventful at first.
I have been there only twice in my life...about 10 years ago.
I remember telling the husband that for the first time in my life I could understand the "logic" of a suicidal person. Luckily, just talking that out got me back to a realistic mind set.
It makes no sense to anyone else how this process becomes "logical." Folks may ask, "but what about your kids?" and that is a major factor.
One of my most favorite all-time Christians is Watchman Nee. Chinese. And he was an adult Christian in China at Communist takeover (1949 and afterwards).
Watchman Nee had had a nice Christian up-bringing in the 1940's and earlier at the hand of some wonderful missionaries to that place (including Ruth Graham's mother and father, and many other mountain-ous men and woman of the Lord). Hudson Taylor and others.
Anyway, after 1949 persecution set in, people were hounded by the State to turn in Christian leaders as enemy of the State. Just before his arrest in 1952, Watchman Nee was abandoned by his faithful followers and ridiculed openly and called a failure (because his "church" was disbanded).
He was accused, not of being Christian, but of being a spy. Watchman Nee asked the Lord if he was a failure as he was called. The Lord said simply, "no." That was enough for Watchman Nee.
Watchman Nee would die in prison 20 years after his arrest. And it was said that his "clear baritone could be heard from outside the prison walls singing the Christian hyms he loved."
Watchman Nee is my example of how much weight I have a right to give other people over the testimony of the Lord.
What this means in the context of suicide (and combatting those thoughts of failure and defeat) is that, for me, the hope and inspiration Watchman Nee's life gives is bound up in his endurance of otherwise unendurable things by his faith that all things are sent by the Lord.
I personally have no open door to consider suicide (no matter how awful my situation) because of my example of Watchman Nee.
Many write of the qualities of "worship" (I have lots of these books).
I just found a little pamphlet of Watchman Nee about worship on sale at Christian Book Distributors (purveyor of discounted Christian stuff). Therein Watchman Nee said, among other things, that you cannot worship if you complain. Complaining seals up the lips to worship. Difficult and hard to hear stuff like that Watchman Nee taught before he was arrested, and then proved by his life afterwards. A little sentence he taught, and then it was transcribed and put into a book. To me this is amazing.
I was told that it was a direction they would put a believer on. It was better to loose one than have the team injured.
They purposely tried to push me in that direction. I know how you felt. It was TWI's top notch secret group that were willing to sacrifice us.
I cannot tell you how I feel when I think of those ice cold b$tches and b@stards willing to "murder" you, by directing you to suicide, in order to prevail, keep their dirty secrets or remain unchallanged.
dot, you were TOLD that? man, it never occurred to me that it might be intentional. that's more despicable than i ever imagined. (and my opinion of them is pretty low.)
but thinking of that time reminded me of one of the moments when the light dawned for me. it was in the same timeframe as my suicide contemplation. i was at some big region function, don't remember what it was, hanging out with my LC/RC--who was the one who spearheaded the attack on me. i was low as could be, feeling as un-self-confident as i'd ever felt. he was getting on me again about whatever it was, and i somehow managed to say "i'm sorry, jeff, i want to believe you. but i just can't help feeling that what you're telling me is bullshît." it made him completely nuts (not that he had far to go), but it was the first step on the road UP for me!
he was getting on me again about whatever it was, and i somehow managed to say "i'm sorry, jeff, i want to believe you. but i just can't help feeling that what you're telling me is bullshît."
Many of those idiots were the loosers in school and business. They found TWI and fell into the Bully roles very easily.
So, I will join you --
Jeff - you were an @zzhole -
You are full of sh1t, and a pathrtic looser. To think you push the buttons of severe depression, loneliness, or suicide in the people for whom you were "responsible", is sickening.
Haha we are still here and better than ever. Go to hell(o) - it should be a short trip for you.
And yes Sprawled an ordained 4th corps told me that. It was better to sacrifice one -- etc.
She was actually speaking of one of the girls on the site I am posting for you to see
And a GREAT early corps confirmed it was a believed code among the secret society, when he told me what happened to me was calculated as was what happened to this girl as well.
See what they were hiding? Can't argue with people trying to hide these horrible secrets. They make you feel ashamed, dirty, crazy small and worthless...
This site has been brought up but here this will show you some of how they thought:
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SafariVista
(((((((NLL)))))))
....prayers for you & Shannon and all those involved~
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Dot Matrix
My cousin Karen's mother sounds like Bridget's mother. Or at least in part makes me think of her.
Karen would come home from school to have her mother passed out on the couch smelling of alcohol. Karen was never allowed to have friends or to go over anyone's house -- I believe it was in an effort to KEEP THE SECRET. One day a neighbor was playing with Karen and they went into the house and Aunt MArilyn beat the crap out of Karen, screaming in her face that she was an evil child.
Well, Karen grew-up with no friends and very alone. At the age of around 9 my Aunt Marilyn sat Karen down and read her a suicide note that she (my Aunt) had written. In it, she blamed her rotten little girl, Karen, for why she decided to take her life. She said because she was so horrible, and impoissible to love, that my Aunt just wanted to kill herself to get away from her.
Now, this little girl was NOT a bad kid. She was cute and sweet.
Shortly there after, Karen came home and her mother was unconsious on the floor. She thought she was dead because she was such a bad child. She called her Dad (my blood uncle) and he came home and discovered she was just drunk again.
When my Uncle left for work, the mother sobered she beat Karen to an inch of her life, and threatened her to NEVER call anyone again ever.
So, Karen grew up finding her mother motionless on the floor, day after day, and she tried to determine if she was dead or alive. Karen would sit quietly in a chair in fear of that woman.
And that horror of a human being would threaten her with suicide as punishment on a regular basis.
I don't know how Karen survived. Her mother died of a heart attack. But that threat of suicide paralyzed Karen.
Today, Karen is getting her Doctorate in Psychiatric medicine.
I am unsure how this story fits in here, but your account of Bridget brought this to mind.
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Dot Matrix
"Perhaps some suicidal people are just unfixable. Just like some people who have cancer, or heart attacks, or even the flu are unfixable. Perhaps mental illness, as well as physical illness, is sometimes enough to kill us no matter what we try."
NLL
You said the above.
I do think you might be correct. Some people, for whatever reason, just cannot break free of their "demons" so to speak.
My high school love got into drugs and did drugs, incl. heroine, and then methodone his whole life. It was his problem and his first love. He just could never climb out of it. I think some people just can't "get out"
It is a struggle and perhaps they just do not have any "fight" left in them.
For years, I thought if only I had done this or that maybe he wouldn't have been an addict his whole life.
Then, one day I realized I am not that powerful. The desire to change or to battle some of life's battles must come from a place deep within us -- individually.
Mike could have only wom against his "problems" when his desire to LIVE was stronger than his desire to destroy himself.
WE can try, sometimes a friend is helpful, or to go into a hospital but sometimes they just fall back again.
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Dot Matrix
Kit
I think that is why suicide is an act of desperation but can be viewed as selfish by some. Cause they do not see the affects on others. However, to be so desperate, one does not believe they mean anything to anyone....so it seems okay
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excathedra
anyone in such despair may not be acting selfishly in my humble opinion
i hope darling shannon realizes that it may have been her dad's only option for peace - even if just in his own mind - but that's the only place we live
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bowtwi
It took me over 10 years to forgive my mother for deserting me. I had to get to a place where I could see it from her point of view and excath, darlin - I think you hit it on the head right there. I no longer think my mom was selfish in her mind, it just felt like extreme selfishness to me at the time when I was left without her. Now I wish I had known how to reach her and give her what she needed to feel ok about accepting help, especially psychiatric.
I'm so thankful that it's no longer a stigma against people to seek psychiatric help.
I agree with each and every word you spoke here, ex!
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Dot Matrix
Ex: That's what I am saying. It may be viewed as selfish by some. I have heard it referred to as an extremely selfish act. But when you are that desperate I don't think you feel you are of any value anymore.
Heck, if it wasn't for your phone call during the evil female minister days I would have done it. I never felt more worthless and unvalued.
But some see it a selfish because you leave those around you in such a bad state. But believe me, I wasn't thinking about anything but how worthless and what a nothing I was, after that horror of a female minister set me up, so I would shut-up about her sex secrets.
A razor blade seemed to be a welcome relief. I am glad God had you call. And yet Ex, you probably do not even recall the call.
I am just so sorry anyone ever feels desperate enough to go through with it.
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SafariVista
Interesting Dot~
My friend Bridget would seem almost shocked to hear me say 'yes, let's meet & ride bikes'... she thought I wouldn't want to go anywhere with her... but what could be more fun than riding down to the forbidden GRAVEL PIT, tearing down that hill with no reserve?
.... heck, the other girls were indoors doing something 'stupid' 
And her Mom was so much older than all the other Moms... maybe in her late 60's when we were in high school.
Bridget's brother had been gone for YEARS...
Bridget didn't speak bad of her mother, that wasn't ALLOWED!... she internalized everything, making problems her own fault. She didn't have any other friends... plus she was very down about having bad acne :(
I feel like posting a picture of us... maybe a little later~
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excathedra
i love you dottie mae
and bow and all you other wonderful sweet people who have suffered more than you ever ever should have
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Lifted Up
Maybe we need more "pests" like you.
I suppose you can spend too much time and energy being a "pest"...like becoming a dumping ground for someone else's personal woes. Epecially over time. More especially if someone doesnt appear to be in any danger at all. It can wear pretty thin, can't it?
On the other hand, I think of the "no one saw it coming" type remarks such as Paw and Lori offered.
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Lifted Up
just a thought....whether or not they realize they mean something to others. could what they mean to themselves be as important? more so?
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sprawled out
the only time in my life i ever considered suicide was after i'd been piled on by "leadership" for an infraction that they managed to turn into a deep, dark, hopeless character flaw. i remember thinking i was no good to God, and useless to people, so suicide seemed the reasonable course. it was only the thought of my then two-year old son growing up without a father that pulled me out of it.
suicide had always been the furthest thing from my mind and heart, but those "loving" folks with whom i served managed to instill the idea in me. just makes me wonder how many people were specifically put on that path by twi leadership. and how many survived their "counsel."
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Dot Matrix
Sprawled
I was told that it was a direction they would put a believer on. It was better to loose one than have the team injured.
They purposely tried to push me in that direction. I know how you felt. It was TWI's top notch secret group that were willing to sacrifice us.
I cannot tell you how I feel when I think of those ice cold b$tches and b@stards willing to "murder" you, by directing you to suicide, in order to prevail, keep their dirty secrets or remain unchallanged.
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doojable
The thoughts that lead to suicide are sneaky and uneventful at first.
I have been there only twice in my life...about 10 years ago.
I remember telling the husband that for the first time in my life I could understand the "logic" of a suicidal person. Luckily, just talking that out got me back to a realistic mind set.
It makes no sense to anyone else how this process becomes "logical." Folks may ask, "but what about your kids?" and that is a major factor.
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Kit Sober
One of my most favorite all-time Christians is Watchman Nee. Chinese. And he was an adult Christian in China at Communist takeover (1949 and afterwards).
Watchman Nee had had a nice Christian up-bringing in the 1940's and earlier at the hand of some wonderful missionaries to that place (including Ruth Graham's mother and father, and many other mountain-ous men and woman of the Lord). Hudson Taylor and others.
Anyway, after 1949 persecution set in, people were hounded by the State to turn in Christian leaders as enemy of the State. Just before his arrest in 1952, Watchman Nee was abandoned by his faithful followers and ridiculed openly and called a failure (because his "church" was disbanded).
He was accused, not of being Christian, but of being a spy. Watchman Nee asked the Lord if he was a failure as he was called. The Lord said simply, "no." That was enough for Watchman Nee.
Watchman Nee would die in prison 20 years after his arrest. And it was said that his "clear baritone could be heard from outside the prison walls singing the Christian hyms he loved."
Watchman Nee is my example of how much weight I have a right to give other people over the testimony of the Lord.
What this means in the context of suicide (and combatting those thoughts of failure and defeat) is that, for me, the hope and inspiration Watchman Nee's life gives is bound up in his endurance of otherwise unendurable things by his faith that all things are sent by the Lord.
I personally have no open door to consider suicide (no matter how awful my situation) because of my example of Watchman Nee.
Many write of the qualities of "worship" (I have lots of these books).
I just found a little pamphlet of Watchman Nee about worship on sale at Christian Book Distributors (purveyor of discounted Christian stuff). Therein Watchman Nee said, among other things, that you cannot worship if you complain. Complaining seals up the lips to worship. Difficult and hard to hear stuff like that Watchman Nee taught before he was arrested, and then proved by his life afterwards. A little sentence he taught, and then it was transcribed and put into a book. To me this is amazing.
In hope,
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sprawled out
dot, you were TOLD that? man, it never occurred to me that it might be intentional. that's more despicable than i ever imagined. (and my opinion of them is pretty low.)
but thinking of that time reminded me of one of the moments when the light dawned for me. it was in the same timeframe as my suicide contemplation. i was at some big region function, don't remember what it was, hanging out with my LC/RC--who was the one who spearheaded the attack on me. i was low as could be, feeling as un-self-confident as i'd ever felt. he was getting on me again about whatever it was, and i somehow managed to say "i'm sorry, jeff, i want to believe you. but i just can't help feeling that what you're telling me is bullshît." it made him completely nuts (not that he had far to go), but it was the first step on the road UP for me!
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SafariVista
Sprawled Out, I'm glad you said this!
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sprawled out
thanks, SV--you and me both!!
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Dot Matrix
Many of those idiots were the loosers in school and business. They found TWI and fell into the Bully roles very easily.
So, I will join you --
Jeff - you were an @zzhole -
You are full of sh1t, and a pathrtic looser. To think you push the buttons of severe depression, loneliness, or suicide in the people for whom you were "responsible", is sickening.
Haha we are still here and better than ever. Go to hell(o) - it should be a short trip for you.
And yes Sprawled an ordained 4th corps told me that. It was better to sacrifice one -- etc.
She was actually speaking of one of the girls on the site I am posting for you to see
And a GREAT early corps confirmed it was a believed code among the secret society, when he told me what happened to me was calculated as was what happened to this girl as well.
See what they were hiding? Can't argue with people trying to hide these horrible secrets. They make you feel ashamed, dirty, crazy small and worthless...
This site has been brought up but here this will show you some of how they thought:
http://www.uia.net/~messiah7/ltr_marsha.htm
http://www.uia.net/~messiah7/cultsthe.htm
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Dot Matrix
I just posted and it vanished
Okay, it is back
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sprawled out
thank you, dot.
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