Sorry guess, we're on the same planet, but definitely inhabit very different worlds.
I still don't really understand what you're trying to communicate.
Are you trying to make a distinction between what is actual and what our perception of that is?
That's all I can make out.
And I try my best to follow the dictates of my hero Ambrose Bierce "Seek to see things as they are, not as they should be".
I try real hard to live in the real world. Warts and all, it's all we've got. Hiding behind some concocted spiritual "verities" eventually will catch up with us all. Might as well make peace with reality...
Are you trying to make a distinction between what is actual and what our perception of that is?
yes...and then some
but oh well, geo...i think you kind of grasp it
but yer also thinking too hard
and your thinker is getting the best of you
cuz its almost too simple
and as smart as you are
yer almost entirely missing the point of the point
so...its obviously not a matter of being intelligent
but perhaps...a matter of being willing to actually perform these simple kinds of injunctions
i wonder...
how do you distinquish that which is inside from that which is outside?
not on paper, or in mere thought....but as you sit there reading this
as you sit and notice your self...where would you draw the lines to distinquish the inside and the outside of George Aar?
is the universe all inside of you?
or all outside of you?
i dont really think there is one right answer
some people include their clothes, or their house or their care
some people dont even include their skin and bones
some people cant find their interior
and some people cant escape it
but its really just a simple inquiry into subject and object relations
and i'm kinda sorry to keep asking you stuff like this,
but i am suddenly curious as to how someone so rational can miss it
so...just tell me to shut up, i guess
cuz i could be wrong...but im under the impression you actually want to know what im talking about
I try real hard to live in the real world. Warts and all, it's all we've got. Hiding behind some concocted spiritual "verities" eventually will catch up with us all. Might as well make peace with reality...
sounds like a very good way to be, to me
almost sounds buddhist
and other things
where one realizes that the universe really is all is just endless streams of dying crap
which was the conclusion of a lot of so-called enlightened perspectives in a lot of classic religious thought
any 'holy map' of reality was considered a map of samsarra...or a map of hell
and some would say "heaven goes all the way to heaven
just as hell goes all the way to hell"
which kinda meant,
if you were in heaven
everything is below you
and anything below you is obviously hell
and if you were in hell
everything is above you
and everything above you is obviously heaven
and so...the higher into heaven we climb
the deeper the hell is below us
and vis verse
no matter where something is along this 'chain'
it can only get some degree get better
or get some degree worse
thats it
and so 'God's point of view from his loftiest seat'
was pretty much an atheistic point of view
from basically having 'wrestled God and won'
...God finally realizes he is an atheist for the first time
and so 'God becomes a new man'
reconceived, in a sense
but not yet born again
which reminds me of how, in some art
there were only two faces for this deep sense of 'buddha mind'..or whatever
the buddha was either shown as being terminally bored
...or somehow laughing or grinning irreverently in selfless wonderment of all that is
that was it
and this perspective was basically called things like "the witness"
almost as if God realized he is an atheist who cannot die
and so he has no reason to continue looking for himself
or taking any of this mountain of endless crap too seriously
sitting here all alone
above and beyond all this crap
and so God's only choice is to engage
which means he has to descend into hell
and help others see the way through all the crap
which was when God-as-father becomes God-as-mother
'able to come down'
she is the one who stops the bleeding
does the diaper changing
etc...
i dunno
not talking about you, geo
just chuckling at the notions
like when one sees something horrific happen
something that blows our mind and we cant think straight
and we say something like "holy crap!"
...we are expressing an old old truth of reality
perhaps you can see, where, in a sense...how God the atheist is saved from hell
...by finally realizing how good, true and beautiful all this poop really is
I was just reading this in a review of "The God Delusion" at Skepdic.com (Robert Todd Carroll) and thought it appropriate to insert here:
"There is nothing magisterial about irrational faith. Truth is truth. There is not a truth for reason and a truth for faith. To consider the musings of theologians about the Trinity as protected from rational analysis because it is a matter of faith is to abandon reason and admit that irrationality is as good as rationality as a basis for belief. That position can't even be argued for because it requires rationality to argue. Believing on faith is not something to be proud of; it is something a human being should be ashamed of. If we value truth, we must value reason. Faith is not the road to truth but the road to anything goes because we say so. To allow someone off the hook from having to defend his beliefs because he throws up the shield of faith is not only to grant him the right to be irrational, it is also to grant that his irrationality is on an equal footing with your rationality. We shouldn't allow that. We should make it clear that we think a human being should be embarrassed to think it a good thing to believe something on faith. And we should not confuse faith with trust or probability."...
…Just thinking out loud here…What if faith and trust are somehow related – in a complementary fashion – each having some influence on the other. So both aspects would contribute to our navigation system [worldview] in this spiritual journey. Just guessing in all this of course but…the faith side being like an internal compass – pointing us in a "spiritual" direction [what you think is really happening or how the world works or what reality is, etc.] and the trust side or our reasonable side is frequently noting landmarks, checking coordinates of where we are, looking for indications that we are going in the right direction. Thinking about Belle's reference of us seeing through a glass darkly – perhaps it's not a blind faith by which we live but more like a cataract faith. Maybe that's why II Corinthians 5:7 says we walk by faith and not by sight. It doesn't pit faith against reason but sight – otherwise I think it would say something like "we walk by faith not by reason."
So - - wondering if/how these two things work together – maybe there's a thing that could be called "reasonable faith." I was thinking of Matthew 16:15-17 where Peter answered Jesus' question of who He was. Peter said He was the Christ. Jesus then said, "flesh and blood did not reveal this to you, but My Father who is in heaven." That would be the faith side of this "knowing" process. Then considering the reasonable side I think of Luke 7:18-23 where John the Baptist while in prison – seems to have some doubts [interesting to think about since he had Holy Spirit since in the womb] – sends his disciples to Jesus to ask Him if He is the Messiah or should they expect someone else. Jesus tells John's disciples to tell John of all the miracles He did. This would be evidence to bolster John's trust in Jesus as the Messiah. These two passages sort of being a conglomerate of how this thing called "reasonable faith" works.
"reasonable faith" - interesting thoughts, T-Bone. Thanks. Also, "flesh and blood did not reveal this to you, but My Father who is in heaven." That would be the faith side of this "knowing" process. - could this also be what others might call "clairsentience", "intuition", "gut feeling", "just knowing", etc.?
I know that since leaving TWI and doing some of my own reading, "real research" and meeting with lots of other people for discussions along these lines and about different belief systems, that I've started seeing the Bible on a different plane/level/viewpoint.....
Like, the woman with the issue of blood who believed she needed to only "touch the hem of his garment" to be healed.... was that what the "hands on healers", "energy workers", "reiki" type folks teach as energy transfer? Jesus didn't see her, but "felt virtue go out from him". Is this the transfer of energy that they teach?
Because it's not necessarily something that can be scientifically proven beyond the shadow of a doubt, but there is some proof among individuals that it's true and real. Most 'Bible believing' people don't believe that's what it is, but there is a (non mainstream) contingency that does. :unsure:
Both think they're right and both claim to have "proof" of their accuracy. Who's to say? I think of the quote from Jesus saying that those who aren't against us are with us. Does he mean that those many different ways to get to Chicago are all correct - it's just a matter of which path one chooses to take?
"reasonable faith" - interesting thoughts, T-Bone. Thanks. Also, "flesh and blood did not reveal this to you, but My Father who is in heaven." That would be the faith side of this "knowing" process. - could this also be what others might call "clairsentience", "intuition", "gut feeling", "just knowing", etc.?
I know that since leaving TWI and doing some of my own reading, "real research" and meeting with lots of other people for discussions along these lines and about different belief systems, that I've started seeing the Bible on a different plane/level/viewpoint.....
Like, the woman with the issue of blood who believed she needed to only "touch the hem of his garment" to be healed.... was that what the "hands on healers", "energy workers", "reiki" type folks teach as energy transfer? Jesus didn't see her, but "felt virtue go out from him". Is this the transfer of energy that they teach?
Because it's not necessarily something that can be scientifically proven beyond the shadow of a doubt, but there is some proof among individuals that it's true and real. Most 'Bible believing' people don't believe that's what it is, but there is a (non mainstream) contingency that does. :unsure:
Both think they're right and both claim to have "proof" of their accuracy. Who's to say? I think of the quote from Jesus saying that those who aren't against us are with us. Does he mean that those many different ways to get to Chicago are all correct - it's just a matter of which path one chooses to take?
Yes – I wonder about that "intuition, gut feeling, just knowing" thing myself. One definition of "faith" is a belief of something without evidence or proof…I also think you bring up some interesting thoughts in your post – kind of goes all over the map – the mental map I carry in my head that is – and that's great! I love these kinds of discussions that provoke thinking!
I imagine sometimes I must look like a someone who is so lost – I'm turning my mental map upside down, then sideways, then back around, scratching my head, checking the compass…Man oh man, there's so much to consider... When I try to boil it down to why I have chosen my particular path – the best I can come up with is that - - - I chose this path! And I'm comfortable with that responsibility.
And to take that even a little bit further…like why do I choose this path [stating it as a more fluid, present tense thing] – I sometimes get into a real analytical mode – and even – dare I say it – try to think about it in the "grand scheme of things"…is that trying to figure out where I am on someone else's mental map LOL …sort of like what you talked about in how you talked to people with different viewpoints. Maybe "analytical" sounds like I know what I'm doing…maybe more like reflective…a response…a feeling…wondering? I think about people I've met who have a different religion or belief system than mine [sometimes I refrain from using labels in my thinking – it's less confining] – yet I see the impetus behind the things they do as similar if not identical to mine…almost like a little voice in my head says "gee, that looks awfully familiar – like the two great commandments "Love God and neighbor," or like this faith discussion… hmmmmm." It's funny you should bring up the many roads thing. It's sort of like that with some people I've met. After awhile I am surprised to find out that even though we're both using different maps – somehow we've bumped into each other on the same road… or at the least some cosmic intersection – LOL .
It's funny you should bring up the many roads thing. It's sort of like that with some people I've met. After awhile I am surprised to find out that even though we're both using different maps – somehow we've bumped into each other on the same road… or at the least some cosmic intersection – LOL .
Or maybe it is like a 12 billion lane highway all going in the same direction. We all know the destination, but can't see beyond the horizon.
Each lane gives a different perspective. One shift in a lane reveals a little more and hides a little more of everything we're passing by.
Or maybe it is like a 12 billion lane highwayall going in the same direction...
And geez...why oh why - out of ALL the lanes I could have picked way back when - I had to pick the one lane that TWI stuck their little toll booth on?!?!
And geez...why oh why - out of ALL the lanes I could have picked way back when - I had to pick the one lane that TWI stuck their little toll booth on?!?!
Heehee, I've thought this same thing. Oh well. There were certainly lessons to be learned. Perhaps we can help others avoid such traps.
My problem with faith in general is consistancy, or rather the lack of it.
Most folks that I know, or whose works that I have read, do not see the results of their faith on a consistant basis. There is always some "explanation" for why things didn't work out the way that they thought it would. And I'm not just talking about Christians and praying. I'm including Wiccans & their magick, reiki practicioners, users of natural healing methods, and any number of things. There is no way to predict when their trust in their "higher power" will be warranted.
On the other hand, if you try something like praying or eating beets, and you get results enough of the time to make you happy, what difference does it make how you got there?
I thought a few excerpts out of an article in a local paper might interest some folks on this thread. The part I formatted in bold red[the idea of students combining reasoned reflection with their faith] wouldn’t have fared very well on TWI-campuses. The article is Religion and Reason 101by John I. Jenkins and Thomas Burish:
“What should a properly educated college graduate of the early 21st century know?
A Harvard curriculum committee proposed an answer to that question recently, stating that, among other things, such a graduate should know "the role of religion in contemporary, historical, or future events -- personal, cultural, national, or international."
To that end, the committee recommended that every Harvard student be required, as part of his or her general education, to take one course in an area that the committee styled "Reason and Faith."…
…But universities can do more than just familiarize students with the world's religions in survey-course fashion. The rise of religious fanaticism stems in part from a failure of intellectuals within various religious traditions to engage the faithful of their traditions in serious and reasoned reflection, inquiry and dialogue. The marginalization of faith within universities contributes to this failure…
…A recent survey by UCLA's Higher Education Research Institute found that 79 percent of college freshmen believe in God, and 69 percent pray and find strength, support and guidance in their religious beliefs. Religion will remain a powerful force in the personal lives of these students long after they graduate. If faith is shunned by the institutions whose role it is to foster reason and the life of the mind, if universities do not equip students to integrate their faith with the knowledge and reasoning skills they acquire, we shouldn't be surprised if unreasonable or fanatical forces gain influence in communities of faith…”
I think it is acquired by knowledge..there are paved roadmaps that I will not put under reconstruction, cause my brain can only handle so much. :) I do like discussing it with others tho..It takes me nowhere when I try to remap in on a keyboard, except to mental exhaustian if I try to replay things..Meanwhile, I am developing new highways in other areas..I guess Im a project to myself..heehee
If the universities fail to have their students 'integrate faith with knowledge and reasoning skills', then that will play a part of the students then leaning towards the radical/fanatical/fly the planes into the WTC extremism of their respective religions? :unsure:
Gimme a break!
For one thing, many of the radicals/fanatics across the world haven't had or attained to the university level of education. Two, how many of these religious fanatics have become that way because the university didn't run classes on how to integrate their beliefs with modern real life situations? Three, do you know that a good many people who come to the universities (and especially after taking science courses), often question various parts of what they were previously taught in their religions, particularly where science challenges what their religion says about the physical world (evolution vs. creation science, anybody?). Most of them didn't throw out their religious beliefs wholesale, but they didn't become froth-at-the-mouth religious whackos either, ready to join up with the local chapter of either the Al-Qaeda or the Bomb the Abortion Clinic for Jesus Society.
I know that the author didn't place the whole blame on the universities, but come on, I don't think that they should even take as much blame (if any) that he places on them.
P.S., and as far as being equipped on how to deal with the fanatical elements of their respective faiths, they need to be taught that a lot earlier than when they reach the gates of the university, ... like at home/church/temple/mosque. ... From their parents/communities. ... On how to *avoid* the militant fringe groups that endeavor to represent their respective faiths.
Garth, I agree with your line of reasoning – I didn't think the article defined religious fanaticism in such extreme terms as bomb toting terrorists. The reason I referred to TWI in my post about the article was showing a case in point of a group where critical thinking is discouraged and so they're easily influenced by the religious fanatical leadership.
My problem with faith in general is consistancy, or rather the lack of it.
Most folks that I know, or whose works that I have read, do not see the results of their faith on a consistant basis. There is always some "explanation" for why things didn't work out the way that they thought it would. And I'm not just talking about Christians and praying. I'm including Wiccans & their magick, reiki practicioners, users of natural healing methods, and any number of things. There is no way to predict when their trust in their "higher power" will be warranted.
On the other hand, if you try something like praying or eating beets, and you get results enough of the time to make you happy, what difference does it make how you got there?
You are right Oak, if FAITH is just a work or action on your part to bring something to pass.
I am of the belief now that everything is in God's hands. My ''faith'' is in HIM alone to do what is best in the situation, whether "I" like it or not. His purposes are my priority now, not mine. I PRAY for HIS WILL to be done in my situations, or others as well.
Therefore, my faith doesn't diasappoint me, because it rests in Who HE is, not what HE will do for me.
Excellent point, Bliss! Your post hits home for me personally. After leaving TWI it was a matter of me re-aligning the object of my faith from being what I want to what does God want. I look at any disappointments as perhaps an indication of my not liking the way God worked things out…maybe a similar experience to the struggle Paul had with his thorn in the flesh. Paul prayed for God to get rid of it – God dealt with it another way by providing grace and strength to Paul so he could handle it.
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sirguessalot
exactly
if "reality" = truth
and "faith" = interior perspective of truth
they are related
but never equal
:blink:
of course, many mistake faith (their inner map of reality) for reality itself
but some refuse to admit that this interior perspective has any value at all
both are handicapped in their partial approach to reality
...
and so, ok,
geo, do you have an interior sense of being?
i mean, right now.
breathing, farting, blinking, whatever...
...can you distinquish that which is inside of geo from that which is outside of geo?
and...where would you draw that line between what is inward and what is outward
cuz not everyone draws the line in the same place
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George Aar
Sorry guess, we're on the same planet, but definitely inhabit very different worlds.
I still don't really understand what you're trying to communicate.
Are you trying to make a distinction between what is actual and what our perception of that is?
That's all I can make out.
And I try my best to follow the dictates of my hero Ambrose Bierce "Seek to see things as they are, not as they should be".
I try real hard to live in the real world. Warts and all, it's all we've got. Hiding behind some concocted spiritual "verities" eventually will catch up with us all. Might as well make peace with reality...
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sirguessalot
but oh well, geo...i think you kind of grasp it
but yer also thinking too hard
and your thinker is getting the best of you
cuz its almost too simple
and as smart as you are
yer almost entirely missing the point of the point
so...its obviously not a matter of being intelligent
but perhaps...a matter of being willing to actually perform these simple kinds of injunctions
i wonder...
how do you distinquish that which is inside from that which is outside?
not on paper, or in mere thought....but as you sit there reading this
as you sit and notice your self...where would you draw the lines to distinquish the inside and the outside of George Aar?
is the universe all inside of you?
or all outside of you?
i dont really think there is one right answer
some people include their clothes, or their house or their care
some people dont even include their skin and bones
some people cant find their interior
and some people cant escape it
but its really just a simple inquiry into subject and object relations
and i'm kinda sorry to keep asking you stuff like this,
but i am suddenly curious as to how someone so rational can miss it
so...just tell me to shut up, i guess
cuz i could be wrong...but im under the impression you actually want to know what im talking about
sounds like a very good way to be, to me
almost sounds buddhist
and other things
where one realizes that the universe really is all is just endless streams of dying crap
which was the conclusion of a lot of so-called enlightened perspectives in a lot of classic religious thought
any 'holy map' of reality was considered a map of samsarra...or a map of hell
and some would say "heaven goes all the way to heaven
just as hell goes all the way to hell"
which kinda meant,
if you were in heaven
everything is below you
and anything below you is obviously hell
and if you were in hell
everything is above you
and everything above you is obviously heaven
and so...the higher into heaven we climb
the deeper the hell is below us
and vis verse
no matter where something is along this 'chain'
it can only get some degree get better
or get some degree worse
thats it
and so 'God's point of view from his loftiest seat'
was pretty much an atheistic point of view
from basically having 'wrestled God and won'
...God finally realizes he is an atheist for the first time
and so 'God becomes a new man'
reconceived, in a sense
but not yet born again
which reminds me of how, in some art
there were only two faces for this deep sense of 'buddha mind'..or whatever
the buddha was either shown as being terminally bored
...or somehow laughing or grinning irreverently in selfless wonderment of all that is
that was it
and this perspective was basically called things like "the witness"
almost as if God realized he is an atheist who cannot die
and so he has no reason to continue looking for himself
or taking any of this mountain of endless crap too seriously
sitting here all alone
above and beyond all this crap
and so God's only choice is to engage
which means he has to descend into hell
and help others see the way through all the crap
which was when God-as-father becomes God-as-mother
'able to come down'
she is the one who stops the bleeding
does the diaper changing
etc...
i dunno
not talking about you, geo
just chuckling at the notions
like when one sees something horrific happen
something that blows our mind and we cant think straight
and we say something like "holy crap!"
...we are expressing an old old truth of reality
perhaps you can see, where, in a sense...how God the atheist is saved from hell
...by finally realizing how good, true and beautiful all this poop really is
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dancing
if one can take a step into irrational thought
without leaving the rational
could it be possible to see rational logic in this irrational thought?
to take for instance that our rational thinking
might be just a taste of what that seemingly irrational thought is
like the outside of an inner being
or the inside of an outer being
waiting for an investigation with rational thought
and when these two-rational and irrational meet
would it be wisdom and understanding kissing in the midst?
would it be an understanding of more then thought that is rational
would it be the wisdom that has been sought by many and found?
the wisdom of God confounds the wisdom of this world
must be another world where wisdom is seen differently
must be another reality that will blend with the present-your present
or have we come to a stop sign saying you can not go further then this
still wondering what is beyond that stop sign, that stops so many easily?
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T-Bone
…Just thinking out loud here…What if faith and trust are somehow related – in a complementary fashion – each having some influence on the other. So both aspects would contribute to our navigation system [worldview] in this spiritual journey. Just guessing in all this of course but…the faith side being like an internal compass – pointing us in a "spiritual" direction [what you think is really happening or how the world works or what reality is, etc.] and the trust side or our reasonable side is frequently noting landmarks, checking coordinates of where we are, looking for indications that we are going in the right direction. Thinking about Belle's reference of us seeing through a glass darkly – perhaps it's not a blind faith by which we live but more like a cataract faith. Maybe that's why II Corinthians 5:7 says we walk by faith and not by sight. It doesn't pit faith against reason but sight – otherwise I think it would say something like "we walk by faith not by reason."
So - - wondering if/how these two things work together – maybe there's a thing that could be called "reasonable faith." I was thinking of Matthew 16:15-17 where Peter answered Jesus' question of who He was. Peter said He was the Christ. Jesus then said, "flesh and blood did not reveal this to you, but My Father who is in heaven." That would be the faith side of this "knowing" process. Then considering the reasonable side I think of Luke 7:18-23 where John the Baptist while in prison – seems to have some doubts [interesting to think about since he had Holy Spirit since in the womb] – sends his disciples to Jesus to ask Him if He is the Messiah or should they expect someone else. Jesus tells John's disciples to tell John of all the miracles He did. This would be evidence to bolster John's trust in Jesus as the Messiah. These two passages sort of being a conglomerate of how this thing called "reasonable faith" works.
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dancing
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Faith
Some things I just know.
Some things are shown to me.
I care little what others think about it.
But I will take it even further then even I thought.
Reason and rational thinking is underestamated.
As is Jesus Christ.
Neither one has limits.
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Belle
"reasonable faith" - interesting thoughts, T-Bone. Thanks. Also, "flesh and blood did not reveal this to you, but My Father who is in heaven." That would be the faith side of this "knowing" process. - could this also be what others might call "clairsentience", "intuition", "gut feeling", "just knowing", etc.?
I know that since leaving TWI and doing some of my own reading, "real research" and meeting with lots of other people for discussions along these lines and about different belief systems, that I've started seeing the Bible on a different plane/level/viewpoint.....
Like, the woman with the issue of blood who believed she needed to only "touch the hem of his garment" to be healed.... was that what the "hands on healers", "energy workers", "reiki" type folks teach as energy transfer? Jesus didn't see her, but "felt virtue go out from him". Is this the transfer of energy that they teach?
Because it's not necessarily something that can be scientifically proven beyond the shadow of a doubt, but there is some proof among individuals that it's true and real. Most 'Bible believing' people don't believe that's what it is, but there is a (non mainstream) contingency that does. :unsure:
Both think they're right and both claim to have "proof" of their accuracy. Who's to say? I think of the quote from Jesus saying that those who aren't against us are with us. Does he mean that those many different ways to get to Chicago are all correct - it's just a matter of which path one chooses to take?
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sirguessalot
every story that is ever told
is told for true reasons
faith in possibility is a useful illusion
faith in impossibility is useful illusion
so...i believe it is possible
that life becomes a reunion of faith and reason
like wine and a glass
beauty and truth are even better as one
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pond
As profound as some may think they can be, it is of no use if no one eles understands it .
it isnt a communication of ideas it is simply a stoking of a confused ego, that gives nothing at all.
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Abigail
Some of us appreciate the talen that is exhibited in poetic writing.
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T-Bone
Yes – I wonder about that "intuition, gut feeling, just knowing" thing myself. One definition of "faith" is a belief of something without evidence or proof…I also think you bring up some interesting thoughts in your post – kind of goes all over the map – the mental map I carry in my head that is – and that's great! I love these kinds of discussions that provoke thinking!
I imagine sometimes I must look like a someone who is so lost – I'm turning my mental map upside down, then sideways, then back around, scratching my head, checking the compass…Man oh man, there's so much to consider... When I try to boil it down to why I have chosen my particular path – the best I can come up with is that - - - I chose this path! And I'm comfortable with that responsibility.
And to take that even a little bit further…like why do I choose this path [stating it as a more fluid, present tense thing] – I sometimes get into a real analytical mode – and even – dare I say it – try to think about it in the "grand scheme of things"…is that trying to figure out where I am on someone else's mental map LOL
…sort of like what you talked about in how you talked to people with different viewpoints. Maybe "analytical" sounds like I know what I'm doing…maybe more like reflective…a response…a feeling…wondering? I think about people I've met who have a different religion or belief system than mine [sometimes I refrain from using labels in my thinking – it's less confining] – yet I see the impetus behind the things they do as similar if not identical to mine…almost like a little voice in my head says "gee, that looks awfully familiar – like the two great commandments "Love God and neighbor," or like this faith discussion… hmmmmm." It's funny you should bring up the many roads thing. It's sort of like that with some people I've met. After awhile I am surprised to find out that even though we're both using different maps – somehow we've bumped into each other on the same road… or at the least some cosmic intersection – LOL 
.
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dancing
who can really prove their faith?
show me your faith by works James says
what work is he talking about?
the fruit of this faith is seen
but not the faith itself
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lindyhopper
Or maybe it is like a 12 billion lane highway all going in the same direction. We all know the destination, but can't see beyond the horizon.
Each lane gives a different perspective. One shift in a lane reveals a little more and hides a little more of everything we're passing by.
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T-Bone
And geez...why oh why - out of ALL the lanes I could have picked way back when - I had to pick the one lane that TWI stuck their little toll booth on?!?!
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dancing
And yet here we are, able to dismantle that which does not work.
And actually say with all honesty that 'i do not know'.
Which is a step into knowing the truths that have been waiting to be revealed in you.
Being Born Again is a process of letting God work within us.
Without men dictating to us what to believe.
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Bramble
Heehee, I've thought this same thing. Oh well. There were certainly lessons to be learned. Perhaps we can help others avoid such traps.
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Oakspear
My problem with faith in general is consistancy, or rather the lack of it.
Most folks that I know, or whose works that I have read, do not see the results of their faith on a consistant basis. There is always some "explanation" for why things didn't work out the way that they thought it would. And I'm not just talking about Christians and praying. I'm including Wiccans & their magick, reiki practicioners, users of natural healing methods, and any number of things. There is no way to predict when their trust in their "higher power" will be warranted.
On the other hand, if you try something like praying or eating beets, and you get results enough of the time to make you happy, what difference does it make how you got there?
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dancing
faith in what would be a question
faith in what we we think we know
or what we really do know and have seen
yet not attained but attainable
a living faith must a living reality
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T-Bone
I thought a few excerpts out of an article in a local paper might interest some folks on this thread. The part I formatted in bold red [the idea of students combining reasoned reflection with their faith] wouldn’t have fared very well on TWI-campuses. The article is Religion and Reason 101 by John I. Jenkins and Thomas Burish:
http://www.dfw.com/mld/dfw/news/opinion/15959425.htm
“What should a properly educated college graduate of the early 21st century know?
A Harvard curriculum committee proposed an answer to that question recently, stating that, among other things, such a graduate should know "the role of religion in contemporary, historical, or future events -- personal, cultural, national, or international."
To that end, the committee recommended that every Harvard student be required, as part of his or her general education, to take one course in an area that the committee styled "Reason and Faith."…
…But universities can do more than just familiarize students with the world's religions in survey-course fashion. The rise of religious fanaticism stems in part from a failure of intellectuals within various religious traditions to engage the faithful of their traditions in serious and reasoned reflection, inquiry and dialogue. The marginalization of faith within universities contributes to this failure…
…A recent survey by UCLA's Higher Education Research Institute found that 79 percent of college freshmen believe in God, and 69 percent pray and find strength, support and guidance in their religious beliefs. Religion will remain a powerful force in the personal lives of these students long after they graduate. If faith is shunned by the institutions whose role it is to foster reason and the life of the mind, if universities do not equip students to integrate their faith with the knowledge and reasoning skills they acquire, we shouldn't be surprised if unreasonable or fanatical forces gain influence in communities of faith…”
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likeaneagle
Faith-
I think it is acquired by knowledge..there are paved roadmaps that I will not put under reconstruction, cause my brain can only handle so much. :) I do like discussing it with others tho..It takes me nowhere when I try to remap in on a keyboard, except to mental exhaustian if I try to replay things..Meanwhile, I am developing new highways in other areas..I guess Im a project to myself..heehee
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GarthP2000
?????
So let me get this straight.
If the universities fail to have their students 'integrate faith with knowledge and reasoning skills', then that will play a part of the students then leaning towards the radical/fanatical/fly the planes into the WTC extremism of their respective religions? :unsure:
Gimme a break!
For one thing, many of the radicals/fanatics across the world haven't had or attained to the university level of education. Two, how many of these religious fanatics have become that way because the university didn't run classes on how to integrate their beliefs with modern real life situations? Three, do you know that a good many people who come to the universities (and especially after taking science courses), often question various parts of what they were previously taught in their religions, particularly where science challenges what their religion says about the physical world (evolution vs. creation science, anybody?). Most of them didn't throw out their religious beliefs wholesale, but they didn't become froth-at-the-mouth religious whackos either, ready to join up with the local chapter of either the Al-Qaeda or the Bomb the Abortion Clinic for Jesus Society.
I know that the author didn't place the whole blame on the universities, but come on, I don't think that they should even take as much blame (if any) that he places on them.
P.S., and as far as being equipped on how to deal with the fanatical elements of their respective faiths, they need to be taught that a lot earlier than when they reach the gates of the university, ... like at home/church/temple/mosque. ... From their parents/communities. ... On how to *avoid* the militant fringe groups that endeavor to represent their respective faiths.
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T-Bone
Garth, I agree with your line of reasoning – I didn't think the article defined religious fanaticism in such extreme terms as bomb toting terrorists. The reason I referred to TWI in my post about the article was showing a case in point of a group where critical thinking is discouraged and so they're easily influenced by the religious fanatical leadership.
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bliss
You are right Oak, if FAITH is just a work or action on your part to bring something to pass.
I am of the belief now that everything is in God's hands. My ''faith'' is in HIM alone to do what is best in the situation, whether "I" like it or not. His purposes are my priority now, not mine. I PRAY for HIS WILL to be done in my situations, or others as well.
Therefore, my faith doesn't diasappoint me, because it rests in Who HE is, not what HE will do for me.
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T-Bone
Excellent point, Bliss! Your post hits home for me personally. After leaving TWI it was a matter of me re-aligning the object of my faith from being what I want to what does God want. I look at any disappointments as perhaps an indication of my not liking the way God worked things out…maybe a similar experience to the struggle Paul had with his thorn in the flesh. Paul prayed for God to get rid of it – God dealt with it another way by providing grace and strength to Paul so he could handle it.
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