Faith

[T-Bone]

Well…I was thinking about this thread and for some reason TWI's teaching on the law of believing popped into my head…I wasn't even believing for that …anyway…TWI suggests the law of believing is a power that can physically alter reality…You ever have one of those days where you kind of mix everything up in your head – move things around…stand back…look at it and go "Huh?" …So…I dunno…

...Here's another one of my dumb musings about TWI's law of believing, faith, viewpoints: If there's any such thing as a "law" of believing - what if it's about the principle of beliefs...Rather than it being a force that emanates outward from us or some force we come up alongside of and steer or commandeer...What if it's an inward process...wonder if there's actually some kind of reverse effect on the "believer" – in that what a person believes becomes a "law" that governs how one sees reality…Instead of believing equals receiving maybe it's more like believing equals perceiving…

...Sorry...I'm just trying to get enough material together for my own class...You're right...I deserve to be in time-out...I'll go turn myself in right now...

Edited November 18, 2006 by T-Bone

[Oakspear]

You are right Oak, if FAITH is just a work or action on your part to bring something to pass.

Well, I think I'm right even if faith is a belief that God will take care of everything, since there is no consistancy or pattern in that either.

Is the God of the bible completely arbitrary? It seems that way. Believing that whatever happens is part of God's unfathomable will is not much different than believing in random chance.

[GarthP2000]

Believing that whatever happens is part of God's unfathomable will is not much different than believing in random chance.

Ouch!

[dancing]

And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.

can't find-

"Believing that whatever happens is part of God's unfathomable will is not much different than believing in random chance."

[GarthP2000]

So you can't find "Believing that whatever happens is part of God's unfathomable will is not much different than believing in random chance." in the Bible.

And your point is?

[Oakspear]

can't find-

"Believing that whatever happens is part of God's unfathomable will is not much different than believing in random chance."

It's in post #77 quoted by Garth in post#78

Oh, you meant in the bible

That's because it's my opinion. It's what I've observed.

[dancing]

Certainly Oakspear, it is practiced, that which God has not said.

To faith in God, I would think one must know who God is.

His speech, which is pouring out day and night.

yet the voice is not heard, ears have closed,

in favor of that which can be conquered.

[Bramble]

To know who God is...I grew up in a church, then spent most of my adult life in TWI. That God, the bible god, I don't know. My experience with him veered so wildly from a good God to a judgemental harsh god...all tied to some type of biblical interpretation...and there are a million different Biblical interpretations.That God is confusing, nor do I have trust in the Bible or the interpretations of it, or see how it can be the One True Way. The God of Mark and avoid, the god of punishment and Hell, the God who requires obedience or bad things happen doesn't seem like someone to put my trust into.

I chose to look outside that frame work and have found that one doesn't have to know everything or jump through hoops. I don't have to spend the rest fo my life trying to figure out how to interpret the Bible.

I know others have had different experiences, reached different conclusions, but I can't live through someone else' experinece. Not anymore.

[dancing]

Dear Bramble,

You are not charged with interpreting the bible.

God is.

As well as that which is shown to you.

Which is more then the scriptures offer.

Then and only then will the scriptures have a word for you.

It is not our job to interpret.

We learn what it says.

We learn what others say.

God opens the eyes.

There is no other that can.

In the silence of peace.

In the undistracted mind lies within it,

the greatness of what is already in you.

[lindyhopper]

In the silence of peace.

In the undistracted mind lies within it,

the greatness of what is already in you.

Whoa, deep. What is in you in already in you and it is great. Your blowing my mind here, but I get what you mean.

To faith in God, I would think one must know who God is.

His speech, which is pouring out day and night.

yet the voice is not heard, ears have closed,

in favor of that which can be conquered.

Again, a little circular and a little obvious, but it seems you mean something more, I think, maybe not.

To have faith in something requires that you have some sort of construct or premise to base that faith on no matter how elaborate or simplistic. Even if someone believes something as general as "I know there is something out there, I just don't know what," it is still faith. It is based on something out there, no different from something in here.

No matter how much one claims to know and how detailed their description, if it is invisible and unprovable and unobseravable then it is faith. Faith starts with what you think you know about that something, simultaneously. You don't know the unknown and then have faith in it and you don't have faith in the unknown and then know it better. In fact, the knowing that you claim is the faith itself, one in the same. Your whole statement above is a statement of faith. You claim to know that you know that you know it, but that is also faith.

IMHO, the more one claims to truly know their faith the less fluid it becomes and the less they learn about what is actually able to be known.

Edited November 28, 2006 by lindyhopper

[dancing]

to know something is to be fluid in that knowledge

to be able to grow in it and within it

otherwise it is dead and unfruitful

and will be pulled roots and all

[dancing]

Circular-No

that which can be conquered is not God

yeah-got it all figured with definitions and correlations

Not

he comes AGAIN

and sets the wisdom of on a tailspin

[lindyhopper]

to know something is to be fluid in that knowledge

to be able to grow in it and within it

otherwise it is dead and unfruitful

and will be pulled roots and all

What I think what you are refering to here in not knowing but learning, and if that be the case, I agree. If we continue to learn we grow and that which we think we know can change hence the fluidity.

Fluid:

ADJECTIVE:

1 Of, relating to, or characteristic of a fluid.

2 Readily reshaped; pliable.

3 Smooth and flowing; graceful: the fluid motion of a cat.

4 Changing or tending to change; variable: a fluid situation fraught with uncertainty.

Characterized by or allowing social mobility: a fluid society.

5 Convertible into cash: fluid assets.

I know, I know, definitions smefinitions, its only our means of communication here.

I like Belle's posts on the first page. Faith is like a whitewater rapid, it is the ride not the destination. It is the same with learning. Truly knowing is the destination. Faith, or perhaps what you believe, is your raft, while your hope is that you make it out alive. lol

he comes AGAIN

and sets the wisdom of on a tailspin

Again a statement of faith.

As is...

Circular-No

that which can be conquered is not God

Well, the second half is. I don't quite understand what you were getting at...how that related to what I said, but I think most monotheist's concepts of God concur with that.

Fluid:

ADJECTIVE:

1 Of, relating to, or characteristic of a fluid.

2 Readily reshaped; pliable.

3 Smooth and flowing; graceful: the fluid motion of a cat.

4 Changing or tending to change; variable: a fluid situation fraught with uncertainty.

Characterized by or allowing social mobility: a fluid society.

5 Convertible into cash: fluid assets.

I think most religious organizations view "fluid faith" as definition #5.

:(

Edited November 28, 2006 by lindyhopper

[dancing]

i like number 2 lindy

what is faith really

unseen

what does this mean

if faith is not seen then how is it perceived

can a presence be known by actual contact

without seeing with the physical eye?

no man can see God and live

blessed are the pure in heart for they shall see God

see any connection?

pure...heart....seeing...

is this with the physical eye?

there is a belief and many beliefs about seeing God or Christ with the physical eye

man wants to conquer it all

see it all

and say yes now i know

not so with the spirit

it is constantly progressing once 'seen'

or it can be quenched.......

it has to be spiritual

that which is seen in the mind is not physical

can one take a thought and see it physically?

we are spiritual beings as a base of thinking thoughts

sure you can see the trees, buildings and even parts of the air

if you have a very powerful microscope

but what is there that's making it work together

Edited November 29, 2006 by dancing

[lindyhopper]

I understand what you are saying Dancing, I really do, and I respect what believe.

Although, here are some issues that I have.

First the obvious ones. Yes, IF there was spirit it would seem that it would not be seen, heard, felt, etc. physically. It would seem it would have to be spiritual. Or would it?

If you see it with your spiritual eye, then how does the "physical you" know it. There would have to be a connection somewhere in us between the spiritual and the physical, and if there is then why not see God with that physical connection? If there is a connection between your spirit and your body and mind then God would have the same connection. It would be in part a physical connection.

So the real question is what is "spiritual" what does that mean. The answer requires faith and will vary upon the faith of the one giving the answer.

Yes there is an ultimate reality. Knowing what that is will either never be known objectively or will be known later, the connection you left out.

no man can see God and live

blessed are the pure in heart for they shall see God

see any connection?

pure...heart....seeing...

I see the connection. Pure...heart...seeing...but not while you live. Death will be the ultimate answer or non-answer.

[dancing]

If it remains objective the connection will not be seen.

It must me subjective also,not exclusively though.

Cause when Spirit which is already within begins to Activate,

because of subjective and objective reasoning from within,

the connection is 'in the air', that space where there is nothing.

If you will hear me out, or others, they can attest to and confirm

that one must die to see God, not physically, though for most it will be.

To die to your own self in order to see from a new eye.

to pour old wine in a new bottle would burst the bottle.

So it is with the spirit, the old must die for the new to be seen.

Or felt or heard or sensed or any of these things to happen.

Yes, faith, but faith in what lindy?

In what we have figured out or have we let our heart guide us.

In other words are we selfish with what we believe, meaning do we 'stand'

on some type of theory or teaching or person-including ourself.

Or are we to be fluid #2, and just see what is being shown to us.

It's no joke or trick or anything like that when I said peace must be there.

It has to be. Since it's already in you this is where the search is.

And objectively the spirit will meet the spirit subjectively.

So the words that are heard are to be heard subjectively in order to meet this Spirit. Objectivity can stop some from making it to the mark.

Cause of variables in our minds.

Fear of the unknown.

Fear of loosing control or loosing what you already have.

But if you already really have it you will never loose it.

What you know Lindy will be expanded upon and better known,

therefore killing off the old knowledge in light of the new and

bringing with it that which brought you there.

Edited November 29, 2006 by dancing

[Bramble]

Some of what has been said reminds me a little of the Wiccan /Witch Charge of the Goddess, (D. Valiente)

'And you who seek to know Me, know that the seeking and yearning will avail you not, unless you know the Mystery: for if that which you seek, you find not within yourself, you will never find it without.'

The difference being that from a Christian viewpoint, what you would find would have to come from the Christian God, an external inputting...while in other beliefs it would be there already because you are a descendant, child, family....

[dancing]

while in other beliefs it would be there already because you are a descendant, child, family....

I'll go along with that one Bramble.

Not to count out external input though.

Edited November 30, 2006 by dancing