Faith

[Belle]

How does that fit, too, with Ecclesiastes?

Ecc 2:26 - For he giveth to a man that is good in his sight wisdom, and knowledge, and joy; but to the sinner he giveth travail to gather and to heap up, that he may give to him that is good in God's sight. This also is vanity and pursuit of the wind.

Ecc 3: 1-22 - Turn, turn, turn - to everything there is a season

particularly v. He hath made everything beautiful in its time; also he hath set the world in their heart, so that man findeth not out from the beginning to the end the work that God doeth.

Ecc 8:17 - then I saw all that God has done. No one can comprehend what goes on under the sun. Despite all his efforts to search it out, man cannot discover its meaning. Even if a wise man claims he knows, he cannot really comprehend it.

Ecc 9:1 - This, too, I carefully explored: Even though the actions of godly and wise people are in God's hands, no one knows whether or not God will show them favor in this life.

Ecc 9:11 - I returned and saw under the sun that--

The race is not to the swift,

Nor the battle to the strong,

Nor bread to the wise,

Nor riches to men of understanding,

Nor favor to men of skill;

But time and chance happen to them all.

There's more, especially in Job, Psalms and Proverbs that say we can't possibly know the ways of God - how and why He does everything. Like Bramble said, we do see through a glass darkly and those who think they've been able to see through it better than the rest of us probably have a rude awakening coming.

I don't pretend to know any of the answers, but I know that the Bible says God looks on the heart and I suspect that God is much more loving, forgiving, tolerant, protecting, giving, merciful, etc. than my Daddy. Daddy doesn't withohold anything good from me no matter how bad I've screwed up - heck, he's even footed the bill and bailed me out when I've royally screwed things up....again and again and again. I'd like to think my God is at least more like that. ^_^ He sure has been since I've left TWI.

[Belle]

Danny, I'd love to see a picture of what you'd like to find in your cross. :)

I've always "resonated" with the Tibetan mantra for "ohm" and have been looking for two years for a piece of jewelry that's just the "ohm" and not the whole mantra "Ohm mani padme hum". TWO YEARS! I was beginning to think I was crazy for thinking I could get it, but I wanted to find it and I wanted it to be serendipitously, not because I sought it out on the internet.

I couldn't wait and did end up going to ebay and getting it, but I am still keeping my eye out for that serendipitous piece to add to my collection. Especially now that I know it really is out there. :P I hope you find yours!

I bought this little beauty, too. Just to give you an idea of what the ohm looks like.

[sirguessalot]

im sure most everyone has heard me say this before

but i think it bears repeating

a few things i find faith in...

is how faith most naturally unfolds in a spectrum of ways

and as such, is quite measurable, mappable, malleable

and develops in waves and textures

along lines and types

within each of us

and...neither wanting to notice it as such

nor lacking the words or civil environment to describe it

will make reality go away

reality

it seems

has a loving habit of just sitting there in the clear silent dark and doing its thing

yet we are always stuck with some sense of faith

we need a map of our experience with reality

and so our faith is what we expect to happen

how we explain what happened

how we engage with what is happening

"here be dragons"

is what it often says at the edges of our faith

though we often mistake our map for reality

when the map is best served in addition to reality

the illusions become useful again once seen as the truths that they are

and as the most infamous scriptures seems to illustrate

trusting the nature of mystery is the only way through such wilderness

letting the inner darkness lead the edge of our attention

and what was shadow becomes the clear light

which radically changes the view

and humiliates us again

and any practice that deepens self awareness

is still really only deepening more of our map

exposing our naked interiors to our self

but it is a very very important sliver of the big story

and something no one can do for another

though we can go anywhere together

its like taking lamps into darkened caves

investigating the contours and cracks

discovering the paintings on the walls

expanding interior experiences

of our existing maps of reality

the substance of this vessel which holds our worldviews

is deeply textured and layered

and there are a lot of surprising twists in the plot on this journey of expanding reidentification

tho the notion that there are things like

arts and sciences and games and sports

of mapping and charting the truths and languages of inner worlds...

...is likely a tad too many leaps at once for some

there should be no shame in that

tho there likely is

we are often so deeply unable to trust this kind of faith

we often react as if we've been asked to eat a live snake, or something

yet, scripturally, we are instructed not only make leaps of faith

but to prepare for making more such leaps

from faith to faith

most likely forever

fully alone...fully together

like monkeys swinging through a forest of branches

each leap invites a certain cognitive risk

remapping our faith is an earth-shattering move

after the major crack in the vessel finally gives

often sending shockwaves throughout even our physical body

and yet, that we are each such a field of vast interior castles of faith

a vast field of faiths in each other

like many streams in a single ocean

natural fools

born looking for water

in the invisible truth

so anyway...these 3 words have been like a compass for me

and have faithfully helped me remember my way through things

...curiousity

...precision

...kindness

Edited October 28, 2006 by sirguessalot

[T-Bone]

I like that - thanks, Sirguessalot !

...yet we are always stuck with some sense of faith

we need a map of our experience with reality

and so our faith is what we expect to happen

how we explain what happened

how we engage with what is happening

"here be dragons"

is what it often says at the edges of our faith

though we often mistake our map for reality

when the map is best served in addition to reality

the illusions become useful again once seen as the truths that they are...

Is that from you? If so - surely thou wast knighted with some kind of poetically endowed sword by the hand of Muse – LOL - but seriously - that's pretty kool!

Edited October 28, 2006 by T-Bone

[sirguessalot]

yeah, just me

a riff, of sorts

thanks, too

:B)

[TheInvisibleDan]

Danny, I'd love to see a picture of what you'd like to find in your cross. :)

Hi Belle,

I'm leaning along these lines:

One offered by Alaska Jewelry has an interesting, rough texture.

While the one offered by African Gold has a certain, striking elegance to it.

I think I may go with the second one.

Greetings TempleLady: I hadn't considered a wooden anchor cross. But it would be a fantastic idea for building a large one to hang on a wall (perhaps in my refurbished garage-studio-Fortress-of-Solitude), especially with the addition of some brass or gold plating to cover the surface.

Bramble :

The pre Nazi swastika was a positive image, but now the symbolism is so clouded. I have a necklace called a Lauburu, which is like a solar cross but more rounded on the end with a celtic knot look. I have quite few necklaces with symbols that mean something to me but don't freak out the public. I find they help me keep something I want to think about in mind...images work well for me.

This appears quite true. While reviewing a Christian Symbols site, I came across a link to this article

Sir Guess, Curiosity, Precision, and Kindness are very good guides.

Danny

Edited October 28, 2006 by TheInvisibleDan

[templelady]

GOld nugget texture unpolished is really beautiful

Alaska Jewelry is a very reputable company

[dancing]

faith is seen by works

what works

speaking is work-sort of

'out of his belly shall flow'

flowing don't sound like work

but getting to the point that it can flow can be a task

love is not work either

but getting there can be

and is this faith something that is unchangeable?

well yes and no imo

seeing only a part is not seeing the whole

believing one thing is not an automatic for something else

where does this faith come from

the inner heart

that which is written in the soul

and continues to be written

like waking a sleeping giant

slowly at times and quickened at times

[sirguessalot]

a few thoughts, danny

some you may already have thought of

saint brigit's cross has some rich history

and is one of those timeless archetypal symbols

also, as you may know...the tao is thought of as a very profound cross

also, i cant tell whose noticed

but every single piece of my artwork is based on some sort of cross

as homages to notions of divine intersection...or thresholds

in a lot of my work...the cross is often represented as an invisible force that shapes the rest of the piece

but more interesting to me than my work,

is how i would really love to see what kind of original cross people doodle up for themselves

especially because of how symbols can become incredible mandalas for soul work

cuz i think the process of creating our own original symbology for things (especially the cross)

ironically seems to connect us even more to the old old symbols that originally shaped us

its like our art somehow becomes original

again and again

one of my favorites is the hand sigil i sign on my art

always reminds me of my fondess for the number five

Edited October 28, 2006 by sirguessalot

[George Aar]

BTW, the swastika is still in common use today in Buddhist and Hindu temples.

There is a clockwise and counter-clockwise design and - though what the meaning is seems to vary greatly depending on who you ask - it's generally said to be a symbol of longevity, abundance, and good fortune.

Personally I find "faith" to be simply an excuse to believe in something that you have no proof for whatever, but, as a great sage once said, "Whatever blows your skirt up"...

[Sushi]

The race may not be to the swift,

or the contest to the strong.

But that's the way to bet.

Damon Runyon

Edited October 28, 2006 by Sushi

[dancing]

Personally I find "faith" to be simply an excuse to believe in something that you have no proof for whatever

Hi George,

I guess you have faith in that statement and could never be shown otherwise.

[Bramble]

quote'BTW, the swastika is still in common use today in Buddhist and Hindu temples.

There is a clockwise and counter-clockwise design and - though what the meaning is seems to vary greatly depending on who you ask - it's generally said to be a symbol of longevity, abundance, and good fortune.

Personally I find "faith" to be simply an excuse to believe in something that you have no proof for whatever, but, as a great sage once said, "Whatever blows your skirt up"...'

I read somewhere that the name swastika isn't German but Indo European(I think?).

I don't think there's anything wrong in not believing, or someone not having decided what they believe or if they even do. I would be the last to dictate to anyone what they have to do in such matters. I'd rather people just be honest. And tolerant, I appreciate tolerance.

[Sushi]

Yeah, Bramble, I just can't STAND intolerant people.

[dancing]

I'm not being tolerant or intolerant, just stateing what George believes.

And he can stay that way if he wants.

But I said there is substance,and George says it's an excuse.

Then uses the idiotic phrase of the skirt thing.

I can tolerate the phrase but it's not the truth in any sense of the phrase.

[dancing]

And the Lord said, Simon, Simon, behold, Satan hath desired to have you, that he may sift you as wheat: But I have prayed for thee, that thy faith fail not: and when thou art converted, strengthen thy brethren.

Apparently one can have faith before being 'converted'.

converted-

1994 epistrepho { ep-ee-stref’-o}

from 1909 and 4762; TDNT - 7:722,1093; v

AV - turn 16, be converted 6, return 6, turn about 4, turn again 3, misc 4; 39

GK - 2188 { ejpistrevfw }

1) transitively

1a) to turn to

1a1) to the worship of the true God

1b) to cause to return, to bring back

1b1) to the love and obedience of God

1b2) to the love for the children

1b3) to love wisdom and righteousness

2) intransitively

2a) to turn to one’s self

2b) to turn one’s self about, turn back

2c) to return, turn back, come back

[Belle]

I'm not being tolerant or intolerant, just stateing what George believes.

And he can stay that way if he wants.

But I said there is substance,and George says it's an excuse.

Then uses the idiotic phrase of the skirt thing.

I can tolerate the phrase but it's not the truth in any sense of the phrase.

"Not the truth in any sense of the phrase" according to YOUR FAITH.

George is entitled to have faith or not in anything he wants and who are any of us to say that he's wrong? Your faith is something you have come to believe in after many years of experiences, studies, observations, etc. George has come to different conclusions based on his. Neither one of you is right MY FAITH is the right one!!

This is exactly what Bramble is talking about in her first post, dancing. People trying to prove that another person's faith/religions/belief is wrong because it's not what that person believes.

Right now we have thread where one poster is trying to prove that another posters faith/religion is wrong.

There is no concrete evidence that any religion or doctrine is THE ONE. There is only belief and faith.

Now you're doing the same thing on this thread....trying to prove that another poster's faith/religion is wrong. We're all entitled to think and believe what we choose. It's not up to us to judge each other, especially since we "see through a glass darkly". That's my opinion anyway. *shrug* And it's highly possible to learn from others when we don't judge them for what they think, but rather try to see why they think the way they do, accept and appreciate their unique contributions to this world.

p.s. Bible scriptures are useless when trying to prove something to someone who doesn't believe the Bible is anything more than a collection of stories.

[dancing]

I didn't say George was wrong in what he believes Belle.

I just pointed out what he believes.

George is the one trying to insult other beliefs.

I have no intention to change anyone-not my job.

[dancing]

Let's see here-

To date I've been accused of telling people what to believe, when I've been presenting evidence for anyone to take or leave. That's been almost 3 years now.

Been accused of being a Mystic, a pagan, a poet , a speaker of flowery language and more.

Been accused of telling people what to believe-yeah.

And I get people dictating to me what to say and believe.

Kind of funny in a way.

I do hope this thread continues with the many beliefs here without insults.

I have insulted no one. If one takes offence at what I say then who's fault is it?

I have a deep respect for everyone here including George.

If I say what I believe, does that mean I'm trying to convince someone else to believe like me?

No.

I let the Lord be Lord.

[Bramble]

Whether anyone was telling anyone else what to believe on this htread I don't know--things written can read different ways...

I think it is kind of funny how people are always trying to fit you in somewhere, dancing. I suspect you are 'unfittable.'

In TWI it was a non thought--of COURSE everyone in the entire world should believe down to EVERY TINY DETAIL what I believe. It seems like many ex ways can leave Way doctrine, find a new doctrine,and still think this way--of COURSE every one should believe the trinity like I do--or whatever.

I just think it is not possible to dictate what any other person should or even can believe in the depths of their own heart and mind. You can try, using fear and manipulation tactics, along with a few sugar cubes, like TWI did...but deep inside, that can't be controled by another.

[George Aar]

I was just reading this in a review of "The God Delusion" at Skepdic.com (Robert Todd Carroll) and thought it appropriate to insert here:

"There is nothing magisterial about irrational faith. Truth is truth. There is not a truth for reason and a truth for faith. To consider the musings of theologians about the Trinity as protected from rational analysis because it is a matter of faith is to abandon reason and admit that irrationality is as good as rationality as a basis for belief. That position can't even be argued for because it requires rationality to argue. Believing on faith is not something to be proud of; it is something a human being should be ashamed of. If we value truth, we must value reason. Faith is not the road to truth but the road to anything goes because we say so. To allow someone off the hook from having to defend his beliefs because he throws up the shield of faith is not only to grant him the right to be irrational, it is also to grant that his irrationality is on an equal footing with your rationality. We shouldn't allow that. We should make it clear that we think a human being should be embarrassed to think it a good thing to believe something on faith. And we should not confuse faith with trust or probability."

(this is copyright material, but the site allows for "fair-use excerpting" - I assume that's what this is?)

Edited October 29, 2006 by George Aar

[sirguessalot]

it seems obvious that we each have an interior perspective (like our faith/imagined story of cause)

and an exterior perspective (like truth/reality...which is highly measurable yet ultimately UNmeasureable)

as well as shared interior perspectives (which can also be a shared faith)

and if some would stop confusing the three

than perhaps others would stop being so confused

but we tend to devalue perspectives that are essential to our favorites

Edited October 29, 2006 by sirguessalot

[George Aar]

SirG,

I've read your post about a half a dozen times and I can't for the life of me figure out what you're trying to say. Am I being dense or are you being obtuse?

[dancing]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZfmpZ3IIHOQ Edited October 30, 2006 by dancing

[sirguessalot]

yeah, i hate to say it, but i think you are being pretty dense, geo

which is fine with me

tho...im not sure which post you are refering to

nor do i know what it is you dont understand

can you gimme a word or phrase that makes the least sense?

cuz i dunno

looks like im obviously somehow being dense myself

...hm...density...

Edited October 30, 2006 by sirguessalot