Mo started this thread to explain Mormon beliefs... not justify them. Most fundamentalist religious groups think their beliefs are the only true beliefs. I have a Fundamentalist Baptist lady who works for me that believes the Catholics are going to Hell when they die because they aren't saved.
You believe that the Mormons are incorrect in their beliefs. That stands to reason because if you didn't, you'd be a Mormon, right? :)
Going to be fun to see, when we realize that men cannot change what is already done, has been done from the beginning and will be performed by the grace of God, G-d, Jesus, Jesus Christ, Christ Jesus.
Not many care to search out the Spirit that is still moving upon the face of the waters.
Pieces lie in many places. Of our minds. From Mormonism too.
Why do I ever come down to this place (doctrinal)??? Someone please remind me...
Yes....and...No; Yes to those who were in twi and can sniff 'cult', 'religion', 'hypocrisy', 'false prophets' etc... a mile off No to someone who is involved and 'blinded' to the reality.
Thanks for putting this in the spotlight again Mo and to reiterate my previous point...I DONT CARE what you are doing with your life and whatever church you or anyone else is involved with PERIOD.
What grates me is someone like you that was in twi (supposedly) I said supposedly because you posted that you researched mormonism for 35 years ??, what grates me Mo, is the shear hypocrisy of someone like yourself belittling another persons beliefs whilst promoting your own churches elitist and absolutely ridiculous beliefs.
allen... IF you don't care then why does it seem like it's your mission? ...it seems that your inability to be honest with us is a bleedover from your inability to be honest with yourself...
Why does it 'grate' you allan? ...if you don't care?
And here's a fine example of projecting: "...the shear hypocrisy of someone like yourself belittling another persons beliefs whilst promoting your own churches elitist and absolutely ridiculous beliefs..."
My gawd allan... you're looneytunes... I don't have any dog in this fight but jeesh... ANYONE can attack and argue with every point of every religion... EVEN YOURS... and you wouldn't be able to PROVE them wrong...
Your only purpose to be here at GSC is to stir shihite and attack those that don't agree with you... everyone can see it... (of course here's where you always say "I'm just here to present an opposing view")... Mo has never tried to convert anyone, Mo has never tried to convince anyone... all she's ever done is answer questions that folks have about LDS...
Of course, you've had all of this pointed out before to you... and it makes no difference to you.... people who think like you are the reasons wars are fought, people who think like you are one of the biggest sources of hate, racism and oppression...
I left twi because I didn't agree with half the stuff you quoted Mo, I.
And that is where I get confused Allan
If you don't agree with everything that TWI teaches why are you annoyed when I don't either???
If you don;t agree with everything that VPW taught why are you annoyed that I don't either???
I have never said that I disagree with Everything I learned in TWI
I don't take EVERYTHING as 'gospel' even if it comes out of a 'supposed prophets' mouth, that's the difference with us Mo I guess:.
Actually Allan that is the one area we are in 100% agreement
I left TWI, you just swapped it for another version.
I left TWI and found something that IMO is better for me. You left TWI and swapped it for a sanitized version.
And that is fine--my problem with CCF and the offshoots is they still use what VPW taught and I don't want to spend my life evaluating everything I hear because the Man who taught it was a adulterous, alcoholic, womanizing , liar who continued his behaviors right up to death's door. Beyond that I know little of CCF teachings-
So what is it exactly that you believe that you feel I have have belittled and ridiculed (other than VPW)
The first thing that leaps from the page are the following statements
I was baptized into The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (Mormon) when I was eight years old. Even though my parents were inactive members, baptism was something that was expected of everyone.The teachings of the Church were not taught in our home; hence, I received no information about its history or doctrine. Even though my parents were not active, their roots go very deep in the LDS faith. I am a fifth-generation Mormon on both sides. I attended primary (church for children), but then had very little contact with the Church in my teen years
She then goes on to tell about how this inactive family suffered much heartache , alcoholism and death all will remaining inactive, before she and her sister were sent to their grandmothers
Although Grandma had a very impressive LDS pioneer heritage, I don't ever remember her attending church. Grandpa was a Catholic, but I don't remember him ever attending church either. Little did I know that I would eventually be taught that the Catholic Church was considered by Mormons to be the Church of the Devil. *
She and her sister end up as wards of the state,. she carries the son of her foster parents
she then quotes LDS Scripture
Behold there are save two churches only, the one is the church of the Lamb of God, and the other is the church of the devil." (I Nephi 14:10) Maybe I'm missing something here but isn't that what God says???-You either obey Him or you don;t You either Serve Him or you Don;t You either follow Him or you don't
And Doctrine
Bruce R. McConkie's book Mormon Doctrine he states: "The titles 'church of the devil' and 'great and abominable church' are used to identify all churches or organizations of whatever name or nature--whether political, philosophical, educational, economic, social, fraternal, civic, or religious--which are designed to take men on a course that leads away from God and his laws and thus from salvation in the kingdom of God"
she goes on to describe their home life, and then a tragic accident that kills one of their daughters
and finally we come to the LDS church
We were in such pain that neither Larry nor I could think straight, let alone make the many preparations necessary for Cindy's funeral. Larry's parents came to our aid. They were also fifth-generation Mormon, but were not active in the Church. They knew very little about its teachings, but put the funeral into the hands of the LDS Church leaders in Ogden, Utah, where they lived
They end up becoming active LDS and she outlines the teachings of the LDS church
Items 1 through 6 are correct
(her opinions are just that Her opinions)
But when we get to Number 7 creative license creeps in
7) By accepting baptism and becoming a member of the LDS Church, one takes the first step necessary toward gaining salvation and ultimate entrance into the Kingdom of Heaven (the Celestial Kingdom). Temple marriage is another requirement for admittance into the highest degree in the Celestial Kingdom where God and Christ reside, and where families are forever
President Ezra Taft Benson
"To the Single Adult Sisters of the Church"
" the Ensign " Nov 1988 page 88
I also recognize that not all women in the Church will have an opportunity for marriage and motherhood in mortality. But if those of you in this situation are worthy and endure faithfully, you can be assured of all blessings from a kind and loving Heavenly Father—and I emphasize all blessings.
I assure you that if you have to wait even until the next life to be blessed with a choice companion, God will surely compensate you. Time is numbered only to man. God has your eternal perspective in mind.
And
Gordon B Hinckley
Daughters of God
Ensign, Nov. 1991, 97
Some who are not married, through no fault of their own, ask whether they will always be denied the highest degree of glory in that kingdom. I am confident that under the plan of a loving Father and a divine Redeemer, no blessing of which you are otherwise worthy will forever be denied you[/color]
8-9 correct
then we come to 10
10) We were taught that if we became faithful Mormons, doing all we were asked to do, we would be reunited with our daughter, Cindy, and be an eternal family. We loved the promise of families being together forever. But we were also told that if we did not do all that we were asked, we could not go were Cindy is, that is, the Celestial Kingdom, nor could we all be together forever as a family. {you do not follow God, do not strive for a life that is free of sin do not do your best to follow Christ you loose out on rewards -that is what every Christian church teaches} The weight of the two alternatives became a pattern of needing to excel at whatever was placed before us and the guilt of possibly not living up to the task and losing our family forever. It became a vicious cycle that I now refer to as living The Pattern by being entrapped in the web of the Double-Bind. IMO they left Godout of the equation also the Holy Spirit and Jesus Christ -they tried to do it on their own--and that doesn't work
In order to be worthy to attend the temple we were told that we must confess all our sins to the Bishop and Stake President,
Incorrect-- certain sins are inquired about, adultery, homosexuality, abortion, capital crimes, felonies, but there is no confession as takes place in the Catholic Church
attend all church meetings, both ward and stake,
Desirable but if you don't your recommend won't be pulled-or else mine would have been gone long ago
pay a full and honest tithing which consisted of 10 percent of our income,
Yes
pay our share of the ward budget
Oops-there is no such thing as a ward Budget--Wards are funded from Salt Lake which funds them form the tithes
and pay fast offerings on the first Sunday of every month
Recommended but not required
fast offerings are what you would save if you skipped two meals this money is donated to the ward where it stays and is used to feed, cloth, shelter, pay utilities etc of those members in need-it is the Church welfare system at the grass roots level
We were taught that the priests and pastors of other religions do not have the authority to marry a couple for eternity, therefore, the marriage union ceases to exist at death, and the children are left without parents in the eternity. Pres. Joseph F. Smith said, "When couples marry outside the temple, they cut themselves off. They have no claim upon each other, or their children upon them, and there will be weeping, wailing and gnashing of teeth."
Since no other church believes that families will be together in the afterlife as families this is true-Why would they have the authority to seal families together when they don't believe it is possible for them to be together?
We were instructed to accept all church callings because they are from the Lord,
But you won't loose your recommend or be denied one if you don't nor if you ask to be released from a calling or again, mine would have been gone long ago
to be honest in all our business dealings,
Good plan
and to keep the Word of Wisdom, which generally meant abstinence from tea, coffee, tobacco, liquor and cola drinks.
Coffee, Black tea, and Alcohol banned -some people drink colas some don't- but they are not forbidden
We were advised not to associate with persons and/or groups that were against the Church,
Against as in those who actively indulge in what would today be regarded as "terrorist" attacks against the Church or its members. Most LDS have friends who are not LDS
and to refrain from reading or studying any material that was not Church approved.
We don't have the equivalent of a "banned in Boston " list--I've never been asked about my reading material by anyone
To do so would cause us to lose our testimonies and thus in the end, we would lose our family.
Personal l opinion here
We held true to all we were taught, not even daring to drink a cola beverage or play with face cards (instruments of sin).
HUH???? Cards Instruments of sin???? ROFLMAO
We took every word our leaders and teachers said seriously and did all in our power to prove that we were worthy to attend the temple. For some reason they let us go to the temple after being active in the Church for only nine months, but it was the longest nine months of our lives. Perhaps they saw how sincere we were.
Frankly I am stymied by this-You don't do anything special to get a temple recommend-anyone who has been baptized and is an adult member (if you join as an adult there is a one year waiting period more so you can learn more about the church and decide if you want one--there are LDS who have been members all their lives and never asked for one) can get a recommend--It takes a grand total of about 15 minutes and providing that you aren't guilty of a crime, keep the word of wisdom and pay your tithe you'll get one. There are no special tasks, or responsibilities involved in getting a recommend-you just go to the bishop and ask for an interview.
We were also taught that no man or woman in this dispensation would ever enter the Celestial Kingdom of God without the consent of Joseph Smith (J of D, vol. 7, p. 289).
The journal of Discourses is a collection of the teachings and sermons of all the prophets of the church This particular one was given by Brigham Young. I don't get that from reading the entirety of his remarks. But then I also understand that a prophet prophesying as God instructs and a prophet sharing his own ideas and feelings are sometimes two different things.
3) The Telestial Kingdom is prepared for those who live unclean lives: the liars, sorcerers and adulterers, and those who break their covenants with God
Breaking your covenants with GOD is more than being inactive you can keep the commandments and not go to church. I think it would be harder - but It is possible --Again as I stated somewhere else on this thread. God is the trier of Men's hearts not us.
Finally Larry's parents became angry and told us they didn't want anything to do with the Mormon Church and that we were no longer welcome in their home if we kept preaching to them. We immediately stopped talking to them about it, but we were at a loss as to what to do. Our Bishop told us that sometimes you have to give up your immediate family and do what the Lord wants you to do. We became less and less involved with our extended families.
ANY Bishop that advocates giving up your family because they disagree with you on doctrine--is so far out of line as to what the c church teaches--180 degrees out of line that --well lets just say God will deal with him at some point
The wheel of The Double-Bind, the fear that our failure to be one-hundred per centers could be the cause of losing our family forever, kept The Pattern, (the psychological imprisonment) turning.
Ah, Finally something that Allan and I can agree on
THE Fear
No where does the church demand !00% quite the opposite you do the best you can- that is all God expects.
This family relied on there own efforts, they let their fears rule them, instead they could have placed it all In God's hands and leaned on Jesus Christ. They didn't I know this because nowhere in this entire missive is prayer for help, learning on Christ, looking to God for answers ever discussed . It is all "I" , and "We" over and over--so sad-But a trap many Christians fall into , LDS and Non
What I see here is a woman who never fully understood her religion by her own admission, And when She did become active-it was not out of desire to understand the Church, or to know GOD. She was in Grief and wanted to be with her child-every goal was directed toward this. It's called tunnel vision-we all have it at times in our lives. When you are tunnel visioned you see only those things that will get you to your goal and you ignore anything that you do not perceive as not getting you there. This is not the way to learn about what it means to be LDS or to learn bout any other faith or belief system for that matter
Sorry to disappoint you Tom, but this site is also open to those who favor some or all of pfal beliefs. I know that grates you, but hey, get over it.
And you might have missed it but Mo is directing people to her temple (which again, I have no problem with, just want people to see the other side of mormonism before going along)
It's not like Mo puts links to all these ex-lds sites, ay.
I'll try this link again Mo, they did say they could help you.
Thanks for your input... Yeah, most churches that say they stick to the Bible are fundamentalist groups thinking their doctrine is correct. However, I'm not a part of that either..
I know my doctrine ain't 100% sound. Don't believe it will be till the return. We all see through the dark glass, right? However, I don't agree with Universalism that says anything and everything is ok. Thus the reason I asked the question I did to templelady..
Yup, If I agreed with Mormonism, I'd be Mormon! But I'm not, not a part of any denomination or nondenom, even if they were 100% correct. Or as Rosalie put it when I met with her before leaving TWI, the Way is maybe 80% correct in their doctrine, so why not stay?! Cause it's ran by man, that's why! [err umm, woman!].. Instead of being led by God, and having Jesus as our Head..
So understanding why templelady believes one thing when the Mormon scriptures say something else.. Just a simple question.. Not an attack on her belief.. The Mormon book of Ether says that Jesus is both the Father and the Son.. So, why do many NOT believe that?
I can't-actually won't-- speak to this here- as it is the temple ceremony-I can tell you that not all parts are true and I can also tell you that God has made revelations that have also resulted in changes to the ceremony
Personal opinion and feelings are just that
CHAPTER V
FEAR, FAITH, OR LOVE?
Long sections that appear to be from the Book the Double Bind
She also cites Bruce Mcconkie letter of rebuke to Professor Eugene England, Feb. 19, 1981
Professor England had a lot of disagreement with the LDS church. Most people who disagree with a faith leave. But Professor England wanted to remain LDS and at the same time be allowed to carry on about how bad and wrong it is . I know of no church that would allow this kind of behavior without rebuking the person involved.
She again cites the Journal of Discourse which is regarded as neither scripture or doctrine by the Church.. In fact that is why there is a Journal of discourse for all the talks that are either of these two things. that is not to say that Doctrine and scripture are not accurately portrayed in J of D but sometimes what is portrayed is a persons musings--the reader is expected to weigh what they read in this light.
The Church authorities dominated us because their Priesthood authority represented God, and what they required of us, we did. Our common sense died. We were expected to obey without question or face the wrath of God. Instead of experiencing new ideas by questioning and considering the ramifications, we learned to do as we were told.
Failing to exercise your God given freewill and brain -is on you. If you want to be a mindless follower of anything that is on you -- not the organization you belong too.
I found myself continuously suppressing my emotions, logic and power of reason. Questioning the Church's general authorities (The Binders) is forbidden. Even complaints against local leaders are discouraged. Psychological pressure is used to obtain submission. The punishment for questioning is disfellowshipment (church probation) or worse, excommunicated (cut off from God's presence),
Excommunication and probation are given for adultery, spousal abuse, alcoholism, criminal behavior and declaring that the Church is not true or preaching beliefs that are not LDS and claiming they are. It is not done lightly and if you think that LDS aren't allowed to disagree about doctrine etc--I invite you to one of my Gospel Doctrine classes --opinions abound
We believed that if our extended family chose to turn their backs on God's plan, we'd have to turn our backs on them. Love became conditional. Looking back now I can see that I was robbed of individuality and the ability to reason. We lost that which meant the most to us, our families. We assumed we were right and our inactive family members were wrong
There we go with "we" again this entire section is noteworthy for the shortage of scripture references-but loaded with personal opinion
And so it goes on---
It Is really simple-If you don't agree with the LDS church don't join or if you belong leave.
We don't shackle you to the pews or post armed guards outside of your house. You can go anytime
We do not curse you from the podium, or spread lies about your character if you leave. We miss you and most of us will try to maintain a friendship with you. You will not find LDS standing outside the doors of a Baptist church trying to block people from entering the church. You will not find LDS pickets surrounding a Fundalmentalist Church with signs proclaiming that all members of that church are going to hell--Unfortunately the same cannot be said for the other way around
At the end of the day Mo you CANNOT 'defend' against all the numerous ex-lds sites, just like the twi greasespot 'thingy'. Where there is smoke there is fire.
(the link I gave for some reason is not working but anyways it is www.mrm.org ) Mormon recovery ministries
They actually repudiate a number of your counter claims.
As I said a number of times...this is not about an ' I hate mormons fixation' but rather an admonition about 'throwing stones from ones own glasshouse'
You also have more intestinal fortitude than your attacker. He's just like an ignorant bully on the playground. He doesn't know what he believes and certainly can't articulate any semi-intelligent discussion. "Yo Mama" "Yo mama wears combat boots" type of insults is all he knows how to communicate. It must make his blood boil that nobody takes him seriously and the more he attacks, the more respect it builds for you.
Tom, I agree with the projection assessment. How lucky we are to have him come on here as judge, jury and prosecutor. We might all be converted to Mormonism if it weren't for him coming on here to throw bricks from his glass house.
LOL!! He must be down here to avoid having to answer the questions asking him to prove his statements up in the "About the Way" section. Primarily how by ALL accounts, vee pee impacted mainstream Christianity. ROFLMAO!!! I giggle every time I think about that!
Now that you've asked him direct questions, he's just going to have to find someone else to pick on. Shame on you!
So in a 'nut' shell Mo, putting all the ex-lsd sites aside and what their ex-mormon posters say...you agree with your churches position that
1/ non-mormons and those within the mormon church who do not tithe are not counted worthy to enter their temples.
2/ the prophets of the church received visits from 'spirit beings'
3/ celestial heaven (mormon heaven) is located near a star called 'Kolob'
4/ the prophets of the church receive 'revelation' from God for doctrine (however, the revelation can change due to governmental laws etc..) Then the revelation is renamed 'opinion'
Thanks for the dialogue Mo, (and I agree you are classy !) Belle on the other hand could do worse than to take a 'class' on decorum.
And you might have missed it but Mo is directing people to her temple
Really -where??? 'cause I haven't directed anyone anywhere
I did finally get to the site you recommended
It is filled with Jewels of knowledge such as the below
Since only Christians are justified in the sight of God, only they can rest in knowing they are no longer under the wrath of God but are free from the law of sin and death
(I'm so glad that these worthy gentlemen are present to Tell Christ who he may speak for because what the Bible actually says is that no one comes to God except through Christ. In other words Christ speaks for them- The notion that someone has to belong to a particular sect in order for Christ to consider it is a man made theology-But if we are to follow these gentlemen they have decided just who in their opinion Christ is allowed to speak for. And here I always thought Christ got to make that decision-he knowing men's hearts and all-)
They also have a lengthy article on how to create a scene if visiting a temple open to the public before it is dedicated. Abrasive demands and loud objections--Wouldn't it just be easier to stay home if you don't agree or aren't interested in what LDS have t say about LDS beliefs??
And of course there is an article claiming that those of us who aren't married will not be saved--Sigh
An article on why these gentlemen are entitled, in there opinion, to judge others
The requisite Article on How Jesus Christ is Jesus Christ except when It comes to LDS theology and then he is not Jesus Christ
So in a 'nut' shell Mo, putting all the ex-LSD sites aside and what their exmormon posters say...you agree with your churches position that
1/ non-Mormons and those within the Mormon church who do not tithe are not counted worthy to enter their temples.
Yes, every group has its rules-these are ours
2/ the prophets of the church received visits from 'spirit beings'
Joseph Smith received visits from Spirit Beings as you call them, others may have , It is entirely possible, just as it is possible for you or me. speaking for mysellf, having had the experience (long before i was LDS), I would wholeheartedly agree that it happened
3/ celestial heaven (Mormon heaven) is located near a star called 'Kolob'
Yes to Kolob
There are three heavens Celestial Kingdom Terrestrial Kingdom and Telestial Kingdom --calling the Celestial Kingdom Mormon Heaven is an over simplification but for this question it will work, Each heaven is broken down into leels which are broken down into levels........."in my Fathers house are many Mansions"
4/ the prophets of the church receive 'revelation' from God for doctrine (however, the revelation can change due to governmental laws etc..) Then the revelation is renamed 'opinion'
The entire reason LDS have a prophet is that we believe that God reveals different things to different generations. What he told Noah was far less complete that what he told Isaiah which was far less complete than what he told Paul. We don't believe that he would leave his children without a prophet in a world that is constantly in flux, VPW was actually correct on the point of Different administrations, and different dispensations, I don't necessarily agree with VPWs breakdown of same, but the core principal was correct.
Thanks for the dialogue Mo, (and I agree you are classy !) Belle on the other hand could do worse than to take a 'class' on decorum.
You are welcome
thank you for the compliment
and I would really appreciate it if you were nicer to Belle
We do not curse you from the podium, or spread lies about your character if you leave. We miss you and most of us will try to maintain a friendship with you.
You must be really :blink: if you think any church does that with people they excommunicate.
You're even more if you think the people they've excommunicated believe it.
excommunicated does not mean Banned in the LDS church
It means you can't go tot the temple, and you aren''t a member
Excommunication is the result of Sin--adultery, criminal offense the like.
Many lDS who are excommunicated go to church while they work with the Lord and the Bishop to get their live in order and then are readmitted to fellowship.
LDS do not know who among them is excommunicated unless the person excommunicated tells them.!!
It is entirely possible to have a friend who goes inactive who never tells you she is excommunicated
WHY???
because it is no-body's business but her and the Bishop's
There is no Mark and Avoid
No marking, or scarlet letters
No avoiding -if we were to avoid then we would not be displaying the love of Christ and it is the Love of Christ not the LDS church per se that turns lives around.
I currently visit teach three sisters who are inactive--it matters not to me if rhey attend church, or even if they want to see me every month, they are in my prayers, I call them, I send them notes--they are my sisters--that is all that matters
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Trustandobey,
Mo started this thread to explain Mormon beliefs... not justify them. Most fundamentalist religious groups think their beliefs are the only true beliefs. I have a Fundamentalist Baptist lady who works for me that believes the Catholics are going to Hell when they die because they aren't saved.
You believe that the Mormons are incorrect in their beliefs. That stands to reason because if you didn't, you'd be a Mormon, right? :)
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dancing
Going to be fun to see, when we realize that men cannot change what is already done, has been done from the beginning and will be performed by the grace of God, G-d, Jesus, Jesus Christ, Christ Jesus.
Not many care to search out the Spirit that is still moving upon the face of the waters.
Pieces lie in many places. Of our minds. From Mormonism too.
All coming from the same place.
Blink and you miss them.
Seek and you will find.
Knock, and I mean KNOCK and it will be opened.
This religion, that one, or AA or anything else.
The hand of God is in them all.
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Tom Strange
Why do I ever come down to this place (doctrinal)??? Someone please remind me...
allen... IF you don't care then why does it seem like it's your mission? ...it seems that your inability to be honest with us is a bleedover from your inability to be honest with yourself...
Why does it 'grate' you allan? ...if you don't care?
And here's a fine example of projecting: "...the shear hypocrisy of someone like yourself belittling another persons beliefs whilst promoting your own churches elitist and absolutely ridiculous beliefs..."
My gawd allan... you're looneytunes... I don't have any dog in this fight but jeesh... ANYONE can attack and argue with every point of every religion... EVEN YOURS... and you wouldn't be able to PROVE them wrong...
Your only purpose to be here at GSC is to stir shihite and attack those that don't agree with you... everyone can see it... (of course here's where you always say "I'm just here to present an opposing view")... Mo has never tried to convert anyone, Mo has never tried to convince anyone... all she's ever done is answer questions that folks have about LDS...
Of course, you've had all of this pointed out before to you... and it makes no difference to you.... people who think like you are the reasons wars are fought, people who think like you are one of the biggest sources of hate, racism and oppression...
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templelady
If you don't agree with everything that TWI teaches why are you annoyed when I don't either???
If you don;t agree with everything that VPW taught why are you annoyed that I don't either???
I have never said that I disagree with Everything I learned in TWI
Actually Allan that is the one area we are in 100% agreement
I left TWI and found something that IMO is better for me. You left TWI and swapped it for a sanitized version.
And that is fine--my problem with CCF and the offshoots is they still use what VPW taught and I don't want to spend my life evaluating everything I hear because the Man who taught it was a adulterous, alcoholic, womanizing , liar who continued his behaviors right up to death's door. Beyond that I know little of CCF teachings-
So what is it exactly that you believe that you feel I have have belittled and ridiculed (other than VPW)
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templelady
Allan your latest link does not work
Can yo udouble check that it is correct
thanks
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templelady
Okay I took Allan's challenge and delved deeper into the first site he posted
http://www.exmormon.org/journey/journey_a.htm#CHAPTER%20I
You can read along
The first thing that leaps from the page are the following statements
I was baptized into The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (Mormon) when I was eight years old. Even though my parents were inactive members, baptism was something that was expected of everyone. The teachings of the Church were not taught in our home; hence, I received no information about its history or doctrine. Even though my parents were not active, their roots go very deep in the LDS faith. I am a fifth-generation Mormon on both sides. I attended primary (church for children), but then had very little contact with the Church in my teen years
She then goes on to tell about how this inactive family suffered much heartache , alcoholism and death all will remaining inactive, before she and her sister were sent to their grandmothers
Although Grandma had a very impressive LDS pioneer heritage, I don't ever remember her attending church. Grandpa was a Catholic, but I don't remember him ever attending church either. Little did I know that I would eventually be taught that the Catholic Church was considered by Mormons to be the Church of the Devil. *
She and her sister end up as wards of the state,. she carries the son of her foster parents
she then quotes LDS Scripture
Behold there are save two churches only, the one is the church of the Lamb of God, and the other is the church of the devil." (I Nephi 14:10) Maybe I'm missing something here but isn't that what God says???-You either obey Him or you don;t You either Serve Him or you Don;t You either follow Him or you don't
And Doctrine
Bruce R. McConkie's book Mormon Doctrine he states: "The titles 'church of the devil' and 'great and abominable church' are used to identify all churches or organizations of whatever name or nature--whether political, philosophical, educational, economic, social, fraternal, civic, or religious--which are designed to take men on a course that leads away from God and his laws and thus from salvation in the kingdom of God"
Sounds right to me
which brings us to section two
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templelady
cont from previous post
CHAPTER II
TRAGEDY STRIKES
she goes on to describe their home life, and then a tragic accident that kills one of their daughters
and finally we come to the LDS church
We were in such pain that neither Larry nor I could think straight, let alone make the many preparations necessary for Cindy's funeral. Larry's parents came to our aid. They were also fifth-generation Mormon, but were not active in the Church. They knew very little about its teachings, but put the funeral into the hands of the LDS Church leaders in Ogden, Utah, where they lived
They end up becoming active LDS and she outlines the teachings of the LDS church
Items 1 through 6 are correct
(her opinions are just that Her opinions)
But when we get to Number 7 creative license creeps in
7) By accepting baptism and becoming a member of the LDS Church, one takes the first step necessary toward gaining salvation and ultimate entrance into the Kingdom of Heaven (the Celestial Kingdom). Temple marriage is another requirement for admittance into the highest degree in the Celestial Kingdom where God and Christ reside, and where families are forever
President Ezra Taft Benson
"To the Single Adult Sisters of the Church"
" the Ensign " Nov 1988 page 88
I also recognize that not all women in the Church will have an opportunity for marriage and motherhood in mortality. But if those of you in this situation are worthy and endure faithfully, you can be assured of all blessings from a kind and loving Heavenly Father—and I emphasize all blessings.
I assure you that if you have to wait even until the next life to be blessed with a choice companion, God will surely compensate you. Time is numbered only to man. God has your eternal perspective in mind.
And
Gordon B Hinckley
Daughters of God
Ensign, Nov. 1991, 97
Some who are not married, through no fault of their own, ask whether they will always be denied the highest degree of glory in that kingdom. I am confident that under the plan of a loving Father and a divine Redeemer, no blessing of which you are otherwise worthy will forever be denied you[/color]
8-9 correct
then we come to 10
10) We were taught that if we became faithful Mormons, doing all we were asked to do, we would be reunited with our daughter, Cindy, and be an eternal family. We loved the promise of families being together forever. But we were also told that if we did not do all that we were asked, we could not go were Cindy is, that is, the Celestial Kingdom, nor could we all be together forever as a family. {you do not follow God, do not strive for a life that is free of sin do not do your best to follow Christ you loose out on rewards -that is what every Christian church teaches} The weight of the two alternatives became a pattern of needing to excel at whatever was placed before us and the guilt of possibly not living up to the task and losing our family forever. It became a vicious cycle that I now refer to as living The Pattern by being entrapped in the web of the Double-Bind. IMO they left Godout of the equation also the Holy Spirit and Jesus Christ -they tried to do it on their own--and that doesn't work
which brings us to part three
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templelady
CHAPTER III
WHAT WE WERE TAUGHT
ABOUT MORMONISM
In order to be worthy to attend the temple we were told that we must confess all our sins to the Bishop and Stake President,
Incorrect-- certain sins are inquired about, adultery, homosexuality, abortion, capital crimes, felonies, but there is no confession as takes place in the Catholic Church
attend all church meetings, both ward and stake,
Desirable but if you don't your recommend won't be pulled-or else mine would have been gone long ago
pay a full and honest tithing which consisted of 10 percent of our income,
Yes
pay our share of the ward budget
Oops-there is no such thing as a ward Budget--Wards are funded from Salt Lake which funds them form the tithes
and pay fast offerings on the first Sunday of every month
Recommended but not required
fast offerings are what you would save if you skipped two meals this money is donated to the ward where it stays and is used to feed, cloth, shelter, pay utilities etc of those members in need-it is the Church welfare system at the grass roots level
We were taught that the priests and pastors of other religions do not have the authority to marry a couple for eternity, therefore, the marriage union ceases to exist at death, and the children are left without parents in the eternity. Pres. Joseph F. Smith said, "When couples marry outside the temple, they cut themselves off. They have no claim upon each other, or their children upon them, and there will be weeping, wailing and gnashing of teeth."
Since no other church believes that families will be together in the afterlife as families this is true-Why would they have the authority to seal families together when they don't believe it is possible for them to be together?
We were instructed to accept all church callings because they are from the Lord,
But you won't loose your recommend or be denied one if you don't nor if you ask to be released from a calling or again, mine would have been gone long ago
to be honest in all our business dealings,
Good plan
and to keep the Word of Wisdom, which generally meant abstinence from tea, coffee, tobacco, liquor and cola drinks.
Coffee, Black tea, and Alcohol banned -some people drink colas some don't- but they are not forbidden
We were advised not to associate with persons and/or groups that were against the Church,
Against as in those who actively indulge in what would today be regarded as "terrorist" attacks against the Church or its members. Most LDS have friends who are not LDS
and to refrain from reading or studying any material that was not Church approved.
We don't have the equivalent of a "banned in Boston " list--I've never been asked about my reading material by anyone
To do so would cause us to lose our testimonies and thus in the end, we would lose our family.
Personal l opinion here
We held true to all we were taught, not even daring to drink a cola beverage or play with face cards (instruments of sin).
HUH???? Cards Instruments of sin???? ROFLMAO
We took every word our leaders and teachers said seriously and did all in our power to prove that we were worthy to attend the temple. For some reason they let us go to the temple after being active in the Church for only nine months, but it was the longest nine months of our lives. Perhaps they saw how sincere we were.
Frankly I am stymied by this-You don't do anything special to get a temple recommend-anyone who has been baptized and is an adult member (if you join as an adult there is a one year waiting period more so you can learn more about the church and decide if you want one--there are LDS who have been members all their lives and never asked for one) can get a recommend--It takes a grand total of about 15 minutes and providing that you aren't guilty of a crime, keep the word of wisdom and pay your tithe you'll get one. There are no special tasks, or responsibilities involved in getting a recommend-you just go to the bishop and ask for an interview.
We were also taught that no man or woman in this dispensation would ever enter the Celestial Kingdom of God without the consent of Joseph Smith (J of D, vol. 7, p. 289).
http://journalofdiscourses.org/Vol_07/refJDvol7-44.html
The journal of Discourses is a collection of the teachings and sermons of all the prophets of the church This particular one was given by Brigham Young. I don't get that from reading the entirety of his remarks. But then I also understand that a prophet prophesying as God instructs and a prophet sharing his own ideas and feelings are sometimes two different things.
3) The Telestial Kingdom is prepared for those who live unclean lives: the liars, sorcerers and adulterers, and those who break their covenants with God
Breaking your covenants with GOD is more than being inactive you can keep the commandments and not go to church. I think it would be harder - but It is possible --Again as I stated somewhere else on this thread. God is the trier of Men's hearts not us.
Finally Larry's parents became angry and told us they didn't want anything to do with the Mormon Church and that we were no longer welcome in their home if we kept preaching to them. We immediately stopped talking to them about it, but we were at a loss as to what to do. Our Bishop told us that sometimes you have to give up your immediate family and do what the Lord wants you to do. We became less and less involved with our extended families.
ANY Bishop that advocates giving up your family because they disagree with you on doctrine--is so far out of line as to what the c church teaches--180 degrees out of line that --well lets just say God will deal with him at some point
The wheel of The Double-Bind, the fear that our failure to be one-hundred per centers could be the cause of losing our family forever, kept The Pattern, (the psychological imprisonment) turning.
Ah, Finally something that Allan and I can agree on
THE Fear
No where does the church demand !00% quite the opposite you do the best you can- that is all God expects.
This family relied on there own efforts, they let their fears rule them, instead they could have placed it all In God's hands and leaned on Jesus Christ. They didn't I know this because nowhere in this entire missive is prayer for help, learning on Christ, looking to God for answers ever discussed . It is all "I" , and "We" over and over--so sad-But a trap many Christians fall into , LDS and Non
What I see here is a woman who never fully understood her religion by her own admission, And when She did become active-it was not out of desire to understand the Church, or to know GOD. She was in Grief and wanted to be with her child-every goal was directed toward this. It's called tunnel vision-we all have it at times in our lives. When you are tunnel visioned you see only those things that will get you to your goal and you ignore anything that you do not perceive as not getting you there. This is not the way to learn about what it means to be LDS or to learn bout any other faith or belief system for that matter
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allan w.
Sorry to disappoint you Tom, but this site is also open to those who favor some or all of pfal beliefs. I know that grates you, but hey, get over it.
And you might have missed it but Mo is directing people to her temple (which again, I have no problem with, just want people to see the other side of mormonism before going along)
It's not like Mo puts links to all these ex-lds sites, ay.
I'll try this link again Mo, they did say they could help you.
mormon recovery
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TrustAndObey
Hey Sudo,
Thanks for your input... Yeah, most churches that say they stick to the Bible are fundamentalist groups thinking their doctrine is correct. However, I'm not a part of that either..
I know my doctrine ain't 100% sound. Don't believe it will be till the return. We all see through the dark glass, right? However, I don't agree with Universalism that says anything and everything is ok. Thus the reason I asked the question I did to templelady..
Yup, If I agreed with Mormonism, I'd be Mormon! But I'm not, not a part of any denomination or nondenom, even if they were 100% correct. Or as Rosalie put it when I met with her before leaving TWI, the Way is maybe 80% correct in their doctrine, so why not stay?! Cause it's ran by man, that's why! [err umm, woman!].. Instead of being led by God, and having Jesus as our Head..
So understanding why templelady believes one thing when the Mormon scriptures say something else.. Just a simple question.. Not an attack on her belief.. The Mormon book of Ether says that Jesus is both the Father and the Son.. So, why do many NOT believe that?
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templelady
CHAPTER IV
THE HOUSE OF THE LORD
I can't-actually won't-- speak to this here- as it is the temple ceremony-I can tell you that not all parts are true and I can also tell you that God has made revelations that have also resulted in changes to the ceremony
Personal opinion and feelings are just that
CHAPTER V
FEAR, FAITH, OR LOVE?
Long sections that appear to be from the Book the Double Bind
She also cites Bruce Mcconkie letter of rebuke to Professor Eugene England, Feb. 19, 1981
Professor England had a lot of disagreement with the LDS church. Most people who disagree with a faith leave. But Professor England wanted to remain LDS and at the same time be allowed to carry on about how bad and wrong it is . I know of no church that would allow this kind of behavior without rebuking the person involved.
She again cites the Journal of Discourse which is regarded as neither scripture or doctrine by the Church.. In fact that is why there is a Journal of discourse for all the talks that are either of these two things. that is not to say that Doctrine and scripture are not accurately portrayed in J of D but sometimes what is portrayed is a persons musings--the reader is expected to weigh what they read in this light.
The Church authorities dominated us because their Priesthood authority represented God, and what they required of us, we did. Our common sense died. We were expected to obey without question or face the wrath of God. Instead of experiencing new ideas by questioning and considering the ramifications, we learned to do as we were told.
Failing to exercise your God given freewill and brain -is on you. If you want to be a mindless follower of anything that is on you -- not the organization you belong too.
I found myself continuously suppressing my emotions, logic and power of reason. Questioning the Church's general authorities (The Binders) is forbidden. Even complaints against local leaders are discouraged. Psychological pressure is used to obtain submission. The punishment for questioning is disfellowshipment (church probation) or worse, excommunicated (cut off from God's presence),
Excommunication and probation are given for adultery, spousal abuse, alcoholism, criminal behavior and declaring that the Church is not true or preaching beliefs that are not LDS and claiming they are. It is not done lightly and if you think that LDS aren't allowed to disagree about doctrine etc--I invite you to one of my Gospel Doctrine classes --opinions abound
We believed that if our extended family chose to turn their backs on God's plan, we'd have to turn our backs on them. Love became conditional. Looking back now I can see that I was robbed of individuality and the ability to reason. We lost that which meant the most to us, our families. We assumed we were right and our inactive family members were wrong
There we go with "we" again this entire section is noteworthy for the shortage of scripture references-but loaded with personal opinion
And so it goes on---
It Is really simple-If you don't agree with the LDS church don't join or if you belong leave.
We don't shackle you to the pews or post armed guards outside of your house. You can go anytime
We do not curse you from the podium, or spread lies about your character if you leave. We miss you and most of us will try to maintain a friendship with you. You will not find LDS standing outside the doors of a Baptist church trying to block people from entering the church. You will not find LDS pickets surrounding a Fundalmentalist Church with signs proclaiming that all members of that church are going to hell--Unfortunately the same cannot be said for the other way around
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allan w.
At the end of the day Mo you CANNOT 'defend' against all the numerous ex-lds sites, just like the twi greasespot 'thingy'. Where there is smoke there is fire.
(the link I gave for some reason is not working but anyways it is www.mrm.org ) Mormon recovery ministries
They actually repudiate a number of your counter claims.
As I said a number of times...this is not about an ' I hate mormons fixation' but rather an admonition about 'throwing stones from ones own glasshouse'
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templelady
It would really be helpful if you told me exactly what belief of yours I threw stones at
Repudiation of my counter claims does not make their repudiations true
it just means they have repudiated them
Have you ever been to an LDS service?
Have you ever attended an LDS gospel Doctrine class?
Have you ever listened or attended a general or stake conference ??
Have you ever experienced for yourself what goes on in an LD church???
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Belle
Mo, you are one classy lady!
You also have more intestinal fortitude than your attacker. He's just like an ignorant bully on the playground. He doesn't know what he believes and certainly can't articulate any semi-intelligent discussion. "Yo Mama" "Yo mama wears combat boots" type of insults is all he knows how to communicate. It must make his blood boil that nobody takes him seriously and the more he attacks, the more respect it builds for you.
Tom, I agree with the projection assessment. How lucky we are to have him come on here as judge, jury and prosecutor. We might all be converted to Mormonism if it weren't for him coming on here to throw bricks from his glass house.
LOL!! He must be down here to avoid having to answer the questions asking him to prove his statements up in the "About the Way" section. Primarily how by ALL accounts, vee pee impacted mainstream Christianity. ROFLMAO!!! I giggle every time I think about that!
Now that you've asked him direct questions, he's just going to have to find someone else to pick on.
Shame on you! 
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allan w.
So in a 'nut' shell Mo, putting all the ex-lsd sites aside and what their ex-mormon posters say...you agree with your churches position that
1/ non-mormons and those within the mormon church who do not tithe are not counted worthy to enter their temples.
2/ the prophets of the church received visits from 'spirit beings'
3/ celestial heaven (mormon heaven) is located near a star called 'Kolob'
4/ the prophets of the church receive 'revelation' from God for doctrine (however, the revelation can change due to governmental laws etc..) Then the revelation is renamed 'opinion'
Thanks for the dialogue Mo, (and I agree you are classy !) Belle on the other hand could do worse than to take a 'class' on decorum.
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templelady
Really -where??? 'cause I haven't directed anyone anywhere
I did finally get to the site you recommended
It is filled with Jewels
of knowledge such as the below
Since only Christians are justified in the sight of God, only they can rest in knowing they are no longer under the wrath of God but are free from the law of sin and death
(I'm so glad that these worthy gentlemen are present to Tell Christ who he may speak for because what the Bible actually says is that no one comes to God except through Christ. In other words Christ speaks for them- The notion that someone has to belong to a particular sect in order for Christ to consider it is a man made theology-But if we are to follow these gentlemen they have decided just who in their opinion Christ is allowed to speak for. And here I always thought Christ got to make that decision-he knowing men's hearts and all-)
They also have a lengthy article on how to create a scene if visiting a temple open to the public before it is dedicated. Abrasive demands and loud objections--Wouldn't it just be easier to stay home if you don't agree or aren't interested in what LDS have t say about LDS beliefs??
And of course there is an article claiming that those of us who aren't married will not be saved--Sigh
An article on why these gentlemen are entitled, in there opinion, to judge others
The requisite Article on How Jesus Christ is Jesus Christ except when It comes to LDS theology and then he is not Jesus Christ
etc etc etc
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Belle
Mebbee in the same places where all the other claims (claims, not facts being the operative word) are? :unsure:
Oh, WAIT!!! I KNOW!!!
In his IMAGINATION!!!! Such a vivid fantasy life he must have.
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socks
Must......resist...brain....being - nngggh....stolen! Led away...to....to.....?!
Made it. Whew! Close call.
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templelady
So in a 'nut' shell Mo, putting all the ex-LSD sites aside and what their exmormon posters say...you agree with your churches position that
1/ non-Mormons and those within the Mormon church who do not tithe are not counted worthy to enter their temples.
Yes, every group has its rules-these are ours
2/ the prophets of the church received visits from 'spirit beings'
Joseph Smith received visits from Spirit Beings as you call them, others may have , It is entirely possible, just as it is possible for you or me. speaking for mysellf, having had the experience (long before i was LDS), I would wholeheartedly agree that it happened
3/ celestial heaven (Mormon heaven) is located near a star called 'Kolob'
Yes to Kolob
There are three heavens Celestial Kingdom Terrestrial Kingdom and Telestial Kingdom --calling the Celestial Kingdom Mormon Heaven is an over simplification but for this question it will work, Each heaven is broken down into leels which are broken down into levels........."in my Fathers house are many Mansions"
4/ the prophets of the church receive 'revelation' from God for doctrine (however, the revelation can change due to governmental laws etc..) Then the revelation is renamed 'opinion'
The entire reason LDS have a prophet is that we believe that God reveals different things to different generations. What he told Noah was far less complete that what he told Isaiah which was far less complete than what he told Paul. We don't believe that he would leave his children without a prophet in a world that is constantly in flux, VPW was actually correct on the point of Different administrations, and different dispensations, I don't necessarily agree with VPWs breakdown of same, but the core principal was correct.
Thanks for the dialogue Mo, (and I agree you are classy !) Belle on the other hand could do worse than to take a 'class' on decorum.
You are welcome
thank you for the compliment
and I would really appreciate it if you were nicer to Belle
I would I would
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allan w.
Keep her on her leash and it'll be fine.
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TheInvisibleDan
Here Socks, have a cup of joe....there ya go...
I was really amused by the two Mormon missionaries which visited me about 3-4 years ago.
One did the narration, while the other flipped an illustration book featuring Joseph Smith
in a flannel shirt, resembling Russ Tamblyn from "Seven Brides for Seven Brothers".
It was funny in a cool way.
It was like watching a primitive attempt at multi-media "witnessing", though I might add,
a bit more creative than many of my own attempts at such through the Way.
That sort of "show 'n tell" witnessing can be taken a step further in the 21st century.
One person can carry and open a laptop to show a mini-movie while the other
can serve popcorn and lemonade.
The movies can be of various dramatizations from the Book of Mormon featuring
Jesus' appearance to the ancient indians 'n stuff.
If it's a mini-series, more people might be inclined to invite missionaries over to their
house on a weekly basis if only to catch the next installment.
With the finale reserved for the Temple.
It's a helluva witnessing program. By God, some religion should pick up on this (lol).
Danny
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socks
Thanks Invisible Dan! Your pen or mine?
Leash? That don't sound right.
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What The Hey
You must be really :blink: if you think any church does that with people they excommunicate.
You're even more
if you think the people they've excommunicated believe it.
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templelady
WTH
excommunicated does not mean Banned in the LDS church
It means you can't go tot the temple, and you aren''t a member
Excommunication is the result of Sin--adultery, criminal offense the like.
Many lDS who are excommunicated go to church while they work with the Lord and the Bishop to get their live in order and then are readmitted to fellowship.
LDS do not know who among them is excommunicated unless the person excommunicated tells them.!!
It is entirely possible to have a friend who goes inactive who never tells you she is excommunicated
WHY???
because it is no-body's business but her and the Bishop's
There is no Mark and Avoid
No marking, or scarlet letters
No avoiding -if we were to avoid then we would not be displaying the love of Christ and it is the Love of Christ not the LDS church per se that turns lives around.
I currently visit teach three sisters who are inactive--it matters not to me if rhey attend church, or even if they want to see me every month, they are in my prayers, I call them, I send them notes--they are my sisters--that is all that matters
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