So umm... Do you go along with their view that Jesus Christ and the Devil were brothers?
How about their view of being able to rule your own planet if your good?
I admit, most LDS families are very close together.. Their defniitly is Unity.. but umm.. At the expense of what? Following their so-called prophets?
Don't you ever get the feeling in an LDS church that life is all about themselves. Their church, their views, their ways?
My advice, stop following people or groups. Start developing that relationship with Christ and God. The group therapy comes when Christ leads ya to the right folks who just love God and aren't afiliated with businesses (aka man ran churches).
Here are some beliefs Mormons resist telling you at first...
The LDS Church is the only true church. The Lord told Joseph Smith personally that all other churches are an "abomination."
The Lord said that some of the teachings being espoused by churches of Joseph Smiths day were abominations
Any non-Mormon church is automatically part of the "church of the devil."
FALSE
No other church has the valid priesthood.
TRUE
The devil has even made a pact with many Christian pastors to teach Christian doctrines about the Trinity and salvation by grace.
FALSE
in public we say that all religions are good and have some truth.
TRUE
There are many gods. We deal with three of these distinct gods from the council of the gods: Elohim, Jehovah, and the Holy Ghost.
UNTRUE there is Heavenly Father, Jesus Christ and the Holy Ghost
God, the Father, was once a man like us.
TRUE
His name is Elohim, and he had a literal father before him. (That means there is a god even higher than God the Father!)
The church has never received revelation on this so anything postulated by anyone is on this subject is speculative
We can progress to become gods of our own worlds just like the god Elohim.
Elohim is the Hebrew Word for GOD. THE LDS church does not use the word preferring God the Father or Heavenly Father. We do believe in Spiritual Progression
Jesus is the brother of the devil, not his creator
GOD the Father is the creator of Both Jesus Christ and Lucifer as well as the other angels and us
Again there is a big difference from the ponderings of man including the prophets and revelation by GOD
We are not permitted to pray to Jesus, but only to another god named Elohim.
We pray to Heavenly Father
Celestial heaven is near a star called Kolob.
Yes-another something that was take on faith-Proving or disproving by scientific means becomes meaningless
The Bible contains doctrinal errors.
We believe that "plain and Precious truths" have been lost over the years hence the restored gospel
Polygamy is an eternal principle. Mormons still believe in polygamy, but just can't practice it right now.
We believe that Polygamy will be practiced in the Celestial Kingdom
Black people were cursed with their black skin because of their inferiority in the pre-existent life.
FALSE
Native American Indians are really Israelites who were cursed with red skin because of their sin.
TRUE on being Israelites False on the Red Skin
The current prophet, Gordon B. Hinckley, is a prophet in exactly the same sense as Moses or Ezekiel in the Bible.
TRUE
He has authority to write new scripture.
He as Prophet, Seer and revelator receives messages from God teh Father-He is not authorized to Write scripture of his own accord
The first LDS prophet, Joseph Smith, saw God the Father in the flesh.
TRUE
Adam did not sin when he ate of the forbidden fruit, but was merely choosing to obey a contradictory command from Jehovah.
FALSE
Jesus shed his blood to offer us the potential to be forgiven if we successfully stop our sins permanently.
FALSE
We cannot be saved (forgiven) by grace alone through faith alone.
FALSE
Secret temple rituals where one learns secret names and secret handshakes contribute to one's exaltation in the celestial kingdom.
FALSE
No non-Mormon is worthy to go inside a dedicated temple.
TRUE
No one who pays less than 10% of their income to the LDS Church is allowed inside a functioning temple.
TRUE
It is possible to eventually become perfect by progressing a little bit at a time through eternal progression
TRUE-But eternal progression continues in the afterlife
He also Includes a letter which goes to great lengths to show how deeply involved in the LDS church his Family is then goes on to talk about his doubts--but never once cites a less comparison of scripture that he claims to find in compatible.
In short this site is nothing more than a rehash of allegation that have been around for over 130 years. And his description of his "life" contains nothing that could not be obtained form even a cursory review of LDS beliefs and practices.
the fact that over 50% of what he posts as LDS beliefs is False or at best a half truth makes me doubt he was ever or member or that his family was
The Testimony of an ex-Mormonby Gail ClarkI was told that, "Joseph Smith the founderwas a prophet and that God had restored Christianity through him!"
As a child I never had religion, in the home of my parents were never interested in anything to do with religion. Between the ages of 10-11 I attended Sunday school at a local Anglican Church. I found the church very boring and by the time I was twelve I decided the Church was dead. In my early teens my parents and I moved to Birmingham.
During that time I remember feeling that there must be more to life, the neighborhood where I lived was particularly rough and many of my peers were getting involved in drugs, crime, promiscuity, etc.. With at secondary school I undertook a project on child development, on religious faiths and how different religions bring up their children. I lived a few minutes walk away from the Headquarters of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. ( news alert!! the Headquarters for the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter day Saints is in Salt Lake City Utah) I walked into that office; little did I know how that visit would change my life. Anyway to cut a very long story short I left my name and address there.
Two young missionaries knocked on my door one afternoon. I was invited to a series of meetings at my neighbor's house. Before long I was attending Church, the red carpet treatment was laid on, although I would like to point out that the people were genuine. I received my testimony that Joseph Smith the founder was a prophet and that God had restored Christianity through him. I loved the then-Prophet and believed that the LDS Church was the only true religion on the earth. I withdrew from all my gentile (non-Mormon) friends, ( why??, the LDS church does not advocate this)things with my family became difficult and I believed that when they challenged me over the belief system of the church that the devil was using them to pull me out of the church.
I was baptized into the Church on my 15th birthday (1988).The Church will not baptize a minor without parental consent-the parents don;t have to join but they do have to consent The people were kind and friendly but I was unaware that I lost the ability to think for myself. I never questioned any of the doctrines of the Church.( Not thinking for oneself-isn;t the LDS churches fault, Twi''s fault or any one else's fault except the person not thinking) For the first two years I was extremely happy. When I reached eighteen things started to change. I felt uncomfortable with the way that women were treated, men "Lording" their authority over women. Women were expected to be wives and Mothers, which is an important role, but women who went out to work were frowned upon. I can remember the then-prophet Ezra Taft Benson giving a speech about women who had careers and were neglecting their children. ( having a career and having a career that puts your child in a secondary position are apples and oranges-Women are encourage to get college educations, Women are also encouraged to stay at home with their small children-this is not anti career the church simply feels that doing two jobs partially well is not as desirable as doing one job well )
I also started to question in my mind the doctrine of baptism of the dead. Mormons believe that everyone has a second chance of receiving salvation. Mormons spend a fortune on tracing their dead relatives in order to be baptized on their behalf and who can then respond to the message and become a Mormon in the afterlife.
When I had these doubts I kept them to myself. The void I felt in my life, as a young child still had not been filled;I tried to work harder at being religious had not realized that being totally legalistic was not what God required of us. ( then she was not paying attention to the message of the LDS church)
The end of the road for my membership finally came about through a work colleague who was educated in Mormonism and was also a born again Christian. He went about telling me about the flaws in Mormonism. He told me that to be a Mormon I had to be a racist, as Mormonism believes that black people are inferior to whites, ( and again with this old tale amazing that she didn't know this nor had never heard it if it was such a pervasive part of Being LDS) ) until 1978 they were not allowed to hold the Priesthood.
I asked my stake president about this. (The Mormon Church is divided up into stakes in a region this would be the equivalent of an Anglican Diocese and then the state would be divided up into wards which is the equivalent of a parish. The stake President is the equivalent of an Anglican bishop and the bishop is the equivalent of the local vicar). If this was true I expected him to deny it, but he said that it was true that the Church had taught this doctrine. I was completely shocked.
I finally decided to leave after watching a television documentary, about Mormonism. The program highlighted that Mormonism was not of God, that the Book of Mormon was a fraud, that the Temple ceremonies are occultic and the Joseph Smith was a liar, an adulterer and basically was a false prophet.
The program also highlighted the Mountain Meadows Massacre and the polygamy that had gone on. ( Events of over 100 years ago- again hardly news or forbidden topics ) I always believed up until that point that polygamy was only practiced as a social security arrangement. After watching the program I phoned my Bishop and told him to remove my name from membership. My request was denied. I had to threaten the Church with legal action, to have my name removed. The request has to be in writing it is a routine request and easily handles ) They visited me for some time to try to persuade me to return. They eventually stopped visiting when I moved to another house. (I did not move for that purpose.)
Although I had left the Church and had no intention of returning, I believed that all other churches were in total error. I tried to attend several churches and also studied other cult religions (i.e. Jehovah's Witnesses, Hare Krishna, Islam, Spiritualism and Unitarians), but these held no interest to me. Something would prevent me from going any further.
For four years I had no affiliation with any religion I often refer to this as my wilderness stage. I was aware that I still had a great void in my life that needed to be filled, but I was unaware of how to fill it. I tried everything: an unsuccessful marriage, lots of failed relationships, nightclubs (I drank heavily). Nothing worked. This was probably the worst time of my life.
Mormonism would not leave me. I would wake and go to sleep every thinking about Mormonism. It was like I did not fit into the world outside of the Mormon Church, but I did not belong inside it either, as I could not be a hypocrite because I knew that it was false. Many people, especially those who have never been part of a cult, do not realize that the cult is your life - you do not have a life outside of it. You lose everything when you join and leave: your friends. your social life. Life is very empty. You need love, fellowship and support.
Then almost five years ago, (March 1996), I was waling around the estate where I lived when I heard music coming from a church. I went in and sat down without even thinking about it. At first I felt a little uncomfortable about being in the church. After a short while a video was put on it was entitled, "Why did Jesus die?" The video was an Alpha course video presented by Nicky Gumbel. The video was very moving. Nicky Gumbel basically presented the gospel.
Finally it all hit me that Jesus had died for my sins and for me. ( this is the central core of LDS beliefs) For many years I believed Christianity to be complicated. I tried to understand the Trinity and how we could be saved by grace, not works. That evening was a particularly emotional time for me. I really felt God's love and presence. I committed my life to the Lord that night and I can honestly say that my life has never been the same.
God has done so much for me. Before I was saved I always felt dirty. To say that I hated myself is an understatement. To feel clean and worthy in God's sight is wonderful. I was also full of phobias: fear of train lines, fear of death. Jesus has completely set me free. Please don't be fooled. Jesus said, "I am the way, the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me" (John 14:6) There is no other way to be right with God.(the LDS Church is in 100% agreement with this)
The God of Mormonism was never satisfied with what I did. I could never do enough. ( NOT! )But that is not what life is meant to be like. We can never earn God's love. Jesus has paid for our sins in full. I now feel that God is calling me to reach out to those who have been deceived.
Mormons are not deceivers - they have been deceived themselves. They are decent, good, kind people and I still love them very much; but Mormonism is a second hand religion. There is no relationship with God. ( this is so incredible a allegation that I am ROFLMAO)Jesus said in John 10:10, "I have come that they may have life and have to the full." Cults unfortunately try to get to God in another way and that is not living life to the full, but being trapped in a cage of legalism. Please don't be fooled. Jesus said, "I am the way, the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me (John 14:6). There is no other way to be right with God. ( this is what is taught over an over in LDS churches week after week after week) If you have been involved in the Mormon Church in any way I urge you to investigate what I am saying. If you have any questions please contact me at the following address. I will respect your confidentiality and will not be pushy, as I know how difficult such a move would be for you. Your eternal destiny is at state. Don't waste your life following a false prophet as you only get one shot. Make the right choice follow the real Jesus today! (Gail Clark can be emailed at: gailclark_uk@yahoo.co.uk). [source: The Evangel, January 2001 p.4]
HERE Again we have the same Anti LDS accusations trotted out and put in the form of a letter supposidly from a former LDS Church Member. Any Person who has ever belonged to The Church can spot this a mile away. All I am trying to do here is show the errors that a person who had been a member would never make--unless they were deliberately lying.
Understand I don;t care of you disagree with the LDS church, I don;t care if you are ExLDS but I do care when you try to bolster your position by out right fabrications or half truths
How about talking about actual LDS doctrine and why you disagree
that would be a useful site
And there are some out there
but the vast majority are filled with the same drivel- after a while you have cross eyes reading the same canned fallacies over and over
How do I know this---because I spent weeks, Months, years reading Every anti site I could find
then spent time researching avery allegation before I joined
I think I did a fairly good job it only took 35 years!
Last but not least this is the Link to the Church of Jesus Christ Of LAtter Day Saints web site
Fully searchable you can research any topic to your hearts content
I know it is a novel Idea that one would ask LDS what we believe and teach
So much better to get it from people whose knowledge comes from Anti LDS material gleaned from Anti LDS material Gathered from AntiLDS Material printed by persons who wer anti LDS
Didn't we just have an 'Allan W hates Mormons' Thread? Why yes, we did. It was the one where Temple Lady mopped the floor with Allan W--all the while being polite! Yeah...
I don't agree with either of your beliefs, but templelady has shown courage and grace, both of which are only enhanced by the contrast to Allan's cowardice and indecorum.
My advice, stop following people or groups. Start developing that relationship with Christ and God. The group therapy comes when Christ leads ya to the right folks who just love God and aren't affiliated with businesses (aka man ran churches).
Ah there is the subtle difference between what the outside world regards as being LDS and what LDS regard as being LDS
Outside of the Church people see us as following a group
Inside the church we know ourselves as a group developing a relationship with Christ - being a "group" we are there to encourage and support each other on that road
So umm... Do you go along with their view that Jesus Christ and the Devil were brothers?
I hold the view that they were both created by God the father -as does every other denomination I know of
That could be translated into being brothers just as being Joint Heirs with Christ makes Him our brother.
I admit, most LDS families are very close together.. Their definitely is Unity.. but ummAt.. At the expense of what? Following their so-called prophets?
The Family is regarded by the Church as the cornerstone of society. As such we value it and promote family relationships that are spiritually and emotionally healthy for all members. So does God and So did Christ while on earth-
Following the prophet--This is not TWI , folks
President Hinckley does not arise every morning to make pronouncements about, chair stringing, red drapes, or go on rants because someone walks into a meeting late. He does not pelt us with demands that are prefaced with "GOD says you must" . In the entire history of the church there have been 138 revelations from God that have been made doctrine. that's all--What God does do is speak to the prophet just as he did to the prophets of old. to exhort and encourage us to eschew sin and Live righteous lives.
For more on what President Hinckley actually says go to the LDS site and do a search on his name or easier yet
How about their view of being able to rule your own planet if your good
LDS theology does indeed teach that those who attain the highest level of the Celestial Kingdom will have there own planets to rule.
I find this far more palatable than other denominations view that we will appear before God, be judged and banished into outer darkness or achieve eternal life. In that Eternal life we will not have our loved ones around us except at the judgement, and for all eternity we will sit with our eyes gazing at God and Christ while singing their praises--a sort of Exalted zombie-hood.
Science BTW has within the last couple of years discovered that the universe, far from being of Static size, is in fact growing--Wonder Why God needs or wants more Planets?
Yes....and...No; Yes to those who were in twi and can sniff 'cult', 'religion', 'hypocrisy', 'false prophets' etc... a mile off
No to someone who is involved and 'blinded' to the reality.
Thanks for putting this in the spotlight again Mo and to reiterate my previous point...I DONT CARE what you are doing with your life and whatever church you or anyone else is involved with PERIOD.
What grates me is someone like you that was in twi (supposedly) I said supposedly because you posted that you researched mormonism for 35 years ??, what grates me Mo, is the shear hypocrisy of someone like yourself belittling another persons beliefs whilst promoting your own churches elitist and absolutely ridiculous beliefs.
There are sites out there that are in what GSC is to TWI
there is a newsgroup Alt.Mormon.org I believe, and probably others. The sites Allan quoted are none of these--
these sites (excluding the encyclopedia) are repeats of repeats of repeats of innuendo, and half truths that have been around since the 1800's.
They are easy to spot. They follow a set pattern
First how great a LDS Church Member the writer was how involved he/she was.
Then how they met someone who showed them the truth--truth A quick look at the sites Allan listed show NOT ONE SINGLE QUOTE from the BOM D&C, Pearl of Great Price, Ensign, Liahona, Conference talks, or any other material that would be readily available to anyone who was actually LDS, to support what they claim are LDS teachings. This Material would also be readily available to anyone who searched the LDS web sites not found in the LDS church. They then go on to spout the drivel (urban legends) that have been around for ever.
The sites, on the other hand, that exist that are for people that are dissatisfied with the LDS church are run as is GSC. They quote directly form LDS scriptures Chapter and Verse. The cite references from LDS materials.
The absence of theis material clearly marks these sites IMO as of questionable value
Yeah, very weird.. That's the best I can put it.. And I'm not trying to be sarcastic.
Mormon doctrine is like visiting the twilight zone.. Your own planet?! Yeah.. Who wants to be God of their own planet? Back to the beginning in Genesis when the devil said, "You can be like God!".. And if you are Mormon, I guess it must be true, eh? Is that what you believe templelady?
I mean, I just don't see any truth.. Our God, the one true God. Who is God of all God's the scriptures state, is really only God of this planet according to the Mormons. And we serve the God of this planet, for this unforseen amount of time in probation (as the Mormon scriptures state), and if we fulfill everything, we then get to go be God of our own planet, and well, the God we used to serve, He's just the God of that planet we used to be with and now don't serve Him anymore.. That's what they teach, am I right? Having had many mormon friends and conversing with them, this is what they have said. Since our God was human at one time like us, and went through this same thing we are going through for the same purpose. This is what the Mormon scriptures state, am I right?
So, I'm just curious then, since what God our Heavenly Father has said, concerning the resurrection in His written word (as in Corinthians all things shall be put under Him AFTER the resurrections), and the Mormons teach you actually get out from under this once human God like yourself. How can you think that what Mormon's teach and their writings are right? They don't line up. Not a yod or a tittle. It's man made from the beginning to the end.
Or do you reject what the Bible states? They don't line up, so it'd be hypocritical to believe both, unless you pick and choose.
Here are some beliefs Mormons resist telling you at first...
The LDS Church is the only true church. The Lord told Joseph Smith personally that all other churches are an "abomination."
The Lord said that some of the teachings being espoused by churches of Joseph Smiths day were abominations
What specific teachings are these so-called "abominations"?
=================
Any non-Mormon church is automatically part of the "church of the devil."
FALSE
Ok, but what is the Mormon teaching about non Mormon Churches - be specific
=======================
No other church has the valid priesthood.
TRUE
Fair enough. The Catholic church beleives the same as well as a few others. Join the club.
==========
The devil has even made a pact with many Christian pastors to teach Christian doctrines about the Trinity and salvation by grace.
FALSE
So then the teaching of the Trinity is not "devilish" ? Yes or no ? Salvation by Grace ? Yes or no?
================
In public we say that all religions are good and have some truth.
TRUE
Ok, but what do you say in private?
==============
There are many gods. We deal with three of these distinct gods from the council of the gods: Elohim, Jehovah, and the Holy Ghost.
UNTRUE there is Heavenly Father, Jesus Christ and the Holy Ghost
Ok, so there is no council of Gods? Yes or no.
=============
God, the Father, was once a man like us.
TRUE
Interesting, when was that ?
==============
His name is Elohim, and he had a literal father before him. (That means there is a god even higher than God the Father!)
The church has never received revelation on this so anything postulated by anyone is on this subject is speculative
So is this an official denial? No one in the Mormon church believes this - yes or no? Is this speculation allowed? yes or no ?
================
We can progress to become gods of our own worlds just like the god Elohim.
Elohim is the Hebrew Word for GOD. THE LDS church does not use the word preferring God the Father or Heavenly Father. We do believe in Spiritual Progression
Vague reply. So then, does the LDS chruch believe that you can become "gods" like "God the Father" ? Yes or no.
============
Jesus is the brother of the devil, not his creator
GOD the Father is the creator of Both Jesus Christ and Lucifer as well as the other angels and us
That response doesn't address the issue. Does the Mormon church teach, or is there a prevalent belief that Jesus and Satan/Lucifer are "brothers". Yes or no.
Again there is a big difference from the ponderings of man including the prophets and revelation by GOD
Once again , a seeming dodge of the issue. Was mary a virgin or not? Did God have sex with Mary or not? What is the prevalent belief among Mormons and what is the Official Line on these?
=================
We are not permitted to pray to Jesus, but only to another god named Elohim.
We pray to Heavenly Father
And again a vague reply. Is prayer to Jesus forbidden or not? Yes or no.
Celestial heaven is near a star called Kolob.
Yes-another something that was take on faith-Proving or disproving by scientific means becomes meaningless
So the LDS Church teaches this with nothing to support it ?
=================
The Bible contains doctrinal errors.
We believe that "plain and Precious truths" have been lost over the years hence the restored gospel
So the the answer is yes ? I take this to mean that the LDS writings are superior to the Bible? Yes or no?
============
Polygamy is an eternal principle. Mormons still believe in polygamy, but just can't practice it right now.
We believe that Polygamy will be practiced in the Celestial Kingdom
Another dodge. Answer this, If the civil law would allow it, would polygamy be acceptable to the LDS Church today. Yes or no.
==================
Black people were cursed with their black skin because of their inferiority in the pre-existent life.
FALSE
Ok, but are black people treated as equals with non-blacks in the LDS Chruch having the same rights and opportunitues as anyone else? Yes or no.
=============
Native American Indians are really Israelites who were cursed with red skin because of their sin.
TRUE on being Israelites False on the Red Skin
Interesting belief but qite unsupportable. Another "take it on faith" teaching?
=================
The current prophet, Gordon B. Hinckley, is a prophet in exactly the same sense as Moses or Ezekiel in the Bible.
TRUE
Ok. Finally a straight answer .....
==============
He has authority to write new scripture.
He as Prophet, Seer and revelator receives messages from God teh Father-He is not authorized to Write scripture of his own accord
With what accord then does the Hinckley/LDS have to write "scripture"? Does a board or commitee have to review/ approve Hinckleys revelations or writings first ?
Regardles of committes and boards, doesn't Hinkley pretty much have Carte Blancheon doctrine,kinda like VPW and the Pope? Yes or no.
==========
The first LDS prophet, Joseph Smith, saw God the Father in the flesh.
TRUE
Another straight answer. I am shocked.
Adam did not sin when he ate of the forbidden fruit, but was merely choosing to obey a contradictory command from Jehovah.
FALSE
Did Adam sin? Yes or no. Was God's command contradictory? Yes or no.
================
Jesus shed his blood to offer us the potential to be forgiven if we successfully stop our sins permanently.
FALSE
Ok, But what's the real teaching on this? Why did Jesus shed his blood?
==========
We cannot be saved (forgiven) by grace alone through faith alone.
FALSE
So then we (all humans) can be saved by grace alone through faith, with or withouth the LDS Chruch. Is that correct? Yes or no.
=============
Secret temple rituals where one learns secret names and secret handshakes contribute to one's exaltation in the celestial kingdom.
FALSE
Ok, but what then goes on there? I know, it's a secret. Shhhhhhh ... So there are no secrest names and no secret handshakes? Is that true? Or is the denial just saying that these don't contribute to ones exaltation?
===================.
No non-Mormon is worthy to go inside a dedicated temple.
TRUE
Ok, but what about blacks, other races, and women within the Mormon church ? Do they have the same "worthiness"as the white male members ? Yes or no.
======================
No one who pays less than 10% of their income to the LDS Church is allowed inside a functioning temple.
TRUE
ABS at its finest.
=============
It is possible to eventually become perfect by progressing a little bit at a time through eternal progression
TRUE-But eternal progression continues in the afterlife
Hmm. Seems like a dichotomy to me. How can perfection once attained be improved upon?
I don't want to take sides. I'm sure both of you are wonderful people and I would be proud to be friends with either of you.
But Allan, why do you care what Templelady believes? I could see if you had a vested interest in her, i.e. she was your sister, daughter, or other relative. I just don't know what's in your heart. I know you don't agree with vegetarian philosophy, but you're cool with me. What's different between you and Templelady?
Templelady, I dated a boy in highschool who went to a LDS church. He was very nice, and his family (all mormon) treated me (non-mormon) well. We would go on dates to his church, where I learned to polka! LOL! God must have been working, because I married Drty Dzn, and moved to Milwaukee where people polka before they can walk! Anyway, this boy and I would go to the movies, and sit in the back row and kiss. Well, we grew up and he went on a mission? Like out WOW? He sent me a letter asking for forgivness for taking advantage of me. I thought, huh? All he did was kiss me. I wasn't too smart back then. The point I'm trying to make is, maybe there are some faults and wrong doctrine to the LDS church, I don't know. But they raise up some fine people. And I think your church is the most fun!
Sorry TempleLady but I had a couple of mormon boys around my place recently (2 weeks ago) who were ADAMANT we cannot be saved by grace alone...either you need to check your churches doctrine again or stop 'dodging'..
In regards to man becomoing a 'type' of god of his/her own planet ? I think it is quite plausible and there are a cupla scriptures that could infer that ...BUT that kind of speculation should not be TAUGHT AS DOCTRINE...
I don't agree with either of your beliefs, but templelady has shown courage and grace, both of which are only enhanced by the contrast to Allan's cowardice and indecorum.
LG,
Allen W. certainly seems somewhat short on decorum. On what basis, however, do you accuse him of cowardice?
Here are some beliefs Mormons resist telling you at first...
The LDS Church is the only true church. The Lord told Joseph Smith personally that all other churches are an "abomination."
The Lord said that some of the teachings being espoused by churches of Joseph Smiths day were abominations
What specific teachings are these so-called "abominations"?
The most serious charge leveled was "priest-craft" Priest craft is when say they are spreading the gospel while at teh same time demanding payment for same-Paid clergy, Housing for clergy paid for by church, charging for the Bible and other scriptures etc
=================
Any non-Mormon church is automatically part of the "church of the devil."
FALSE
We teach non LDS Christians lack the fullness of the restored gospel specifically the Temple and the Ordinances thereof
=======================
No other church has the valid priesthood.
TRUE
Fair enough. The Catholic church believes the same as well as a few others. Join the club.
==========
The devil has even made a pact with many Christian pastors to teach Christian doctrines about the Trinity and salvation by grace.
FALSE
So then the teaching of the Trinity is not "devilish" ? Yes or no ? Salvation by Grace ? Yes or no?
We believe in God the father, Jesus Christ and the HOLY Ghost We believe they are three separate entities, that make yup the Godhead which is one in purpose-
While we do not proclaim that those who believe in the one and the same person of the "trinity" are possessed by the devil or devilish we definitely feel they are incorrect
Salvation is by Grace=Grace being "unmerited favor"
We do not believe in once saved always saved-if you go out and commit murder you do not have a free pass. salvation is a two way deal Christ suffered and died sop that we could have a means of being reunited with God. If we truly accept that gift, obedience to the commandments, comes with it. We are top walk in Christ's footsteps
================
In public we say that all religions are good and have some truth.
TRUE
Ok, but what do you say in private?
The same thing- one of the strongest injunctions in the LDS church is that we are not allowed to judge anyone Else's standing before God Christian or otherwise- God is the trier of men's hearts--That doesn't mean that we all live up to this principal or any other-we are just like everybody fallible humans
==============
There are many gods. We deal with three of these distinct gods from the council of the gods: Elohim, Jehovah, and the Holy Ghost.
UNTRUE there is Heavenly Father, Jesus Christ and the Holy Ghost
Ok, so there is no council of Gods? Yes or no.
No
=============
God, the Father, was once a man like us.
TRUE
Interesting, when was that ?
The specific of The time has not been revealed to us-obviously a time far outside of human awareness
==============
His name is Elohim, and he had a literal father before him. (That means there is a god even higher than God the Father!)
The church has never received revelation on this so anything postulated by anyone is on this subject is speculative
So is this an official denial?
There is no GOD higher than GOD the Father that we are concerned with
Given what we understand about eternal progression that GOD himself was the Son of a bigger GOD is not outside the realm of possibility and could very well be true.
Think of it as Jesus Christ is in charge of the world
God the Father is in charge of the universe
What if this universe is just one universe in a group of universes
Kind of looking in a mirror that reflects another mirror that reflects another mirror on and on to infinity
No one in the Mormon church believes this - yes or no?
If we stop to think about it all of us would believe it--But most people have a full time job just living their life here on earth in a godly manner. If Super GOD exists--we aren't accountable to him God the Father would be, Jesus Christ is Accountable To God the Father and we are accountable to Jesus Christ
Is this speculation allowed? yes or no ?
WE ARE NOT A CULT
we are allowed to speculate, discuss, ponder, think about, examine, this or any other thought that comes to mind--what we are not allowed to do is claim it is codified doctrine when it isn't.
================
We can progress to become gods of our own worlds just like the god Elohim.
Elohim is the Hebrew Word for GOD. THE LDS church does not use the word preferring God the Father or Heavenly Father. We do believe in Spiritual Progression
Vague reply. So then, does the LDS church believe that you can become "gods" like "God the Father" ? Yes or no.
Gods
in the same way that Jesus Christ created this world
We will have Planets
But Jesus Christ will still be our head
God will still be the Head of Jesus Christ
============
Jesus is the brother of the devil, not his creator
GOD the Father is the creator of Both Jesus Christ and Lucifer as well as the other angels and us
That response doesn't address the issue. Does the Mormon church teach, or is there a prevalent belief that Jesus and Satan/Lucifer are "brothers". Yes or no.
Jesus Christ and Lucifer existed pre World
They are both creations of God in fact all spirits are Children of God since they are His
Brother therefore is a valid description
IT is also MY OPINION, held by some other LDS i know, that Lucifer was the original prodigal son
Again there is a big difference from the pondering of man including the prophets and revelation by GOD
Once again , a seeming dodge of the issue. Was Mary a virgin or not? Did God have sex with Mary or not? What is the prevalent belief among Mormons and what is the Official Line on these?
Was Mary a virgin or not?
Mary was a virgin
Did God have sex with Mary or not?
This is another area where we have no direct evaluation from GOD pondering and speculation vary from person to person I know LDS who believe this others do not. What we all agree on is that Jesus Christ is the literal son of God and Mary. The Particulars of how conception took place, while making for interesting discussions, in no way impact the truth of who Jesus Christ is.
What is the prevalent belief among Mormons and what is the Official Line on these?
The Official line is that we agree and concur with the descriptions given in the Gospels of the New Testament
=================
We are not permitted to pray to Jesus, but only to another god named Elohim.
We pray to Heavenly Father
And again a vague reply. Is prayer to Jesus forbidden or not? Yes or no.
We do not Pray to Jesus we pray to God the Father in Jesus Name as instructed by Jesus Christ himself. TO be honest I have never been affiliated with a church (and there have been Many) who opened a prayer with Dear Jesus Christ--This is a concept that makes me wince quite frankly--but that is me
Celestial heaven is near a star called Kolob.
Yes-another something that was take on faith-Proving or disproving by scientific means becomes meaningless
So the LDS Church teaches this with nothing to support it ?
It was given by revelation to President Brigham Young was was at that time our Prophet. We accept it on that basis
=================
The Bible contains doctrinal errors.
We believe that "plain and Precious truths" have been lost over the years hence the restored gospel
So the the answer is yes ?
YES
I take this to mean that the LDS writings are superior to the Bible? Yes or no?
NO
LDS writings complement and expound more deeply on the truths of the Bible I have yet to find anything in LDS scripture that in any way minimizes or contradicts the position of Christ, his attributes, or his teachings I have found that I see more clearly what they are
The LDS website has all the scriptures on line for free if you want to peruse them
============
Polygamy is an eternal principle. Mormons still believe in polygamy, but just can't practice it right now.
We believe that Polygamy will be practiced in the Celestial Kingdom
Another dodge. Answer this, If the civil law would allow it, would polygamy be acceptable to the LDS Church today. Yes or no.
YES
==================
Black people were cursed with their black skin because of their inferiority in the pre-existent life.
FALSE
Ok, but are black people treated as equals with non-blacks in the LDS Church having the same rights and opportunities as anyone else? Yes or no.
YES
=============
Native American Indians are really Israelites who were cursed with red skin because of their sin.
TRUE on being Israelites False on the Red Skin
Interesting belief but quite unsupportable. Another "take it on faith" teaching?
Yup -We believe they are Israelites part of the lost tribes the skin color doesn't; enter into the issue--Red skin isn't mentioned in the scriptures
=================
The current prophet, Gordon B. Hinckley, is a prophet in exactly the same sense as Moses or Ezekiel in the Bible.
TRUE
Ok. Finally a straight answer .....
==============
He has authority to write new scripture.
He as Prophet, Seer and regulator receives messages from God teh Father-He is not authorized to Write scripture of his own accord
With what accord then does the Hinckley/LDS have to write "scripture"? Does a board or committee have to review/ approve Hinckley's revelations or writings first ?
Regardless of committees and boards, doesn't Hinkley pretty much have Carte Blanche on doctrine, kinda like VPW and the Pope? Yes or no.
GOD writes Scripture, God gives revelations
The Hierarchy of the LDS church goes like this
The Prophet
His Councilors (2)
the Apostles (12)
The Quorum of 70
and the several smaller Quorums
Stake presidencies
Ward Bishops
If the Prophet receives Revelation from God it is shared with His Counselors and teh Apostles
IF the Prophet were to come up with a so called Revelations that was out of whack with everything that God has said or even a good chunk of what God had said these gentleman are there to go "Whoa"
And Just because something is given as revelation does not mean it becomes codified as doctrine. There are many revelations
Since Joseph Smiths death in 1844 there have been only 6 revelations codified as doctrine in the LDS Church
==========
The first LDS prophet, Joseph Smith, saw God the Father in the flesh.
TRUE
Another straight answer. I am shocked.
Adam did not sin when he ate of the forbidden fruit, but was merely choosing to obey a contradictory command from Jehovah.
FALSE
Did Adam sin?
YES
Yes or no. Was God's command contradictory? Yes or no.
NO
HE said do not eat of the tree of knowledge or you shall surely
die Adam ate and death entered the world
================
Jesus shed his blood to offer us the potential to be forgiven if we successfully stop our sins permanently.
FALSE
Ok, But what's the real teaching on this? Why did Jesus shed his blood?
Jesus Shed his blood as the sacrifice for us. All through the old Testament, Rams and Bullocks and other animals were ritually slaughtered their blood being the necessary requirement for the forgiving of Israelites sins
In the New Testament
Jesus replaced all those animal offering once and for all
==========
We cannot be saved (forgiven) by grace alone through faith alone.
FALSE
So then we (all humans) can be saved by grace alone through faith, with or without the LDS Church. Is that correct? Yes or no.
YES
The difference is where in Heaven you'll be living "in my fathers house are many mansions"
=============
Secret temple rituals where one learns secret names and secret handshakes contribute to one's exaltation in the celestial kingdom.
FALSE
Ok, but what then goes on there? I know, it's a secret. Shhhhhhh ... So there are no secrest names and no secret handshakes? Is that true?
NO
Or is the denial just saying that these don't contribute to ones exaltation?
That's It Ritual does not make you Worthy to enter Heaven - Following Christ does that
===================.
No non-Mormon is worthy to go inside a dedicated temple.
TRUE
Ok, but what about blacks, other races, and women within the Mormon church ? Do they have the same "worthiness"as the white male members ? Yes or no.
YES
======================
No one who pays less than 10% of their income to the LDS Church is allowed inside a functioning temple.
TRUE
ABS at its finest.
10% is the tithe to God
Not 15% not 11% just 10%
you don't have to tithe to be LDS
YOU need to tithe if you want to enter the Temple
Many LDS don't have recommends
Many LDS don't tithe
it's that individual walk thing
=============
It is possible to eventually become perfect by progressing a little bit at a time through eternal progression
TRUE-But eternal progression continues in the afterlife
Hmm. Seems like a dichotomy to me. How can perfection once attained be improved upon?
Perfection can;t be improved on but because we believe that man continues to learn and grown in the spirit world before Christ's return it is possible to attain perfection there
As too who wants to be God of their own planet-personally I think it would be kind of fun-designing mountain ranges-creating new animals, the seasons
Back to the beginning in Genesis when the devil said, "You can be like God!".. And if you are Mormon, I guess it must be true, eh? Is that what you believe temple lady?
Satan was playing games with Adam and Eve he wanted them to think they could do without God
I mean, I just don't see any truth.. Our God, the one true God. Who is God of all God's the scriptures state, is really only God of this planet according to the Mormons.
Actually the God who created this Planet is Jesus Christ- Bible says so He did so at the direction of God the Father
And we serve the God of this planet, for this unforeseen amount of time in probation (as the Mormon scriptures state), and if we fulfill everything, we then get to go be God of our own planet, and well, the God we used to serve, He's just the God of that planet we used to be with and now don't serve Him anymore.. That's what they teach, am I right?
Having had many Mormon friends and conversing with them, this is what they have said. Since our God was human at one time like us, and went through this same thing we are going through for the same purpose. This is what the Mormon scriptures state, am I right?
So, I'm just curious then, since what God our Heavenly Father has said, concerning the resurrection in His written word (as in Corinthians all things shall be put under Him AFTER the resurrections), and the Mormons teach you actually get out from under this once human God like yourself.
NOT!!!
God the Father ids God the Father and Jesus Christ is Jesus Christ now and forever as is our relationship to them--Planet making is one of the rewards
How can you think that what Mormon's teach and their writings are right? They don't line up. Not a yod or a tittle. It's man made from the beginning to the end.
Or do you reject what the Bible states? They don't line up, so it'd be hypocritical to believe both, unless you pick and choose
Allen W. certainly seems somewhat short on decorum. On what basis, however, do you accuse him of cowardice?
It's been my impression that Allan dodges the sorts of questions about his beliefs that Templelady answers about hers. I don't really pay much attention to him, so I might be wrong. Maybe he's just a jerk, and not a coward.
What grates me is someone like you that was in twi (supposedly) I said supposedly because you posted that you researched Mormonism for 35 years ??
Yup 35 years during that Time frame in addition to TWI was Methodist, Free Methodist, Presbyterian, Congregationalist, Baptist and Salvation Army
, what grates me Mo, is the shear hypocrisy of someone like yourself belittling another persons beliefs whilst promoting your own churches elitist and absolutely ridiculous beliefs
Okay Allan Let us go down the list of some VPW teachings
1) All women in the Old Testament belonged to the king By extension all woman therefore are here to bless the MOG including sexual intercourse at his demand
true or false?
2) if my child is hit by a drunk driver who careens over the sidewalk Ito my yard that is the result of my lack of believing or wrong believing --true or false?
3) If you don't speak in tongues your aren't born again -true or false?
4) if you can't operate all nine of the manifestations of the spirit all the time you lack believing true or false?
5) failure to follow the directives of leadership, any leadership no matter how bizarre is a sufficient reason for you to be Marked and avoided (excommunicated) and your character smeared true or False?
6) if you aren't ABSing God won't spit in your direction True or false?
7) if you do not follow TWI teachings you will be outside of the household and not be protected by GOD true or false?
I left twi because I didn't agree with half the stuff you quoted Mo, I don't take EVERYTHING as 'gospel' even if it comes out of a 'supposed prophets' mouth, that's the differnce with us Mo I guess: I left twi, you just swapped it for another version.
In reply to your poll...No.1 False No.2 Possible No.3 False (and twi never taught that either) No.4 False
No.5 False No.6 False (or substitute that with...if you don't abs you're not allowed into the (mormon temple) still false ! No.7 False
* Note...these are MY beliefs on your questions Mo...I do not belong to twi anymore, so I guess the question is, how long you gonna hang out at the mormon church ?? Do you believe everything that comes out of your churches prophets mouth ??
Also LG, my beliefs line up withh CFF which most twi'ers should know, saves me a lot of time spelling them all out.
What most posters don't know is what mormonism is all about, that's where I'm happy to help out !
Mo, I've spoken to a cupla of the people from those ex-lds sites and they're more than happy to debate with you and show you that they were involved for a lot longer than you have been, but the last thing this site needs is more of that kind of thing, for the sake of not driving our mods nuts, I did not tell them where I was from or what site I post on.
They did however, strongly urge you to read their articles and also this one
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TrustAndObey
So umm... Do you go along with their view that Jesus Christ and the Devil were brothers?
How about their view of being able to rule your own planet if your good?
I admit, most LDS families are very close together.. Their defniitly is Unity.. but umm.. At the expense of what? Following their so-called prophets?
Don't you ever get the feeling in an LDS church that life is all about themselves. Their church, their views, their ways?
My advice, stop following people or groups. Start developing that relationship with Christ and God. The group therapy comes when Christ leads ya to the right folks who just love God and aren't afiliated with businesses (aka man ran churches).
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templelady
Site 2
"and here"
http://integrity.com/homes/exmormon/ Ex-Mormon Christian
MORMONISM IS NOT WHAT YOU THINK
Here are some beliefs Mormons resist telling you at first...
The LDS Church is the only true church. The Lord told Joseph Smith personally that all other churches are an "abomination."
The Lord said that some of the teachings being espoused by churches of Joseph Smiths day were abominations
Any non-Mormon church is automatically part of the "church of the devil."
FALSE
No other church has the valid priesthood.
TRUE
The devil has even made a pact with many Christian pastors to teach Christian doctrines about the Trinity and salvation by grace.
FALSE
in public we say that all religions are good and have some truth.
TRUE
There are many gods. We deal with three of these distinct gods from the council of the gods: Elohim, Jehovah, and the Holy Ghost.
UNTRUE there is Heavenly Father, Jesus Christ and the Holy Ghost
God, the Father, was once a man like us.
TRUE
His name is Elohim, and he had a literal father before him. (That means there is a god even higher than God the Father!)
The church has never received revelation on this so anything postulated by anyone is on this subject is speculative
We can progress to become gods of our own worlds just like the god Elohim.
Elohim is the Hebrew Word for GOD. THE LDS church does not use the word preferring God the Father or Heavenly Father. We do believe in Spiritual Progression
Jesus is the brother of the devil, not his creator
GOD the Father is the creator of Both Jesus Christ and Lucifer as well as the other angels and us
Jesus was not born of a virgin. Elohim had sexual relations with his daughter, Mary, to bring about the conception of Jesus. (Not all Mormons are familiar with this teaching.)
Again there is a big difference from the ponderings of man including the prophets and revelation by GOD
We are not permitted to pray to Jesus, but only to another god named Elohim.
We pray to Heavenly Father
Celestial heaven is near a star called Kolob.
Yes-another something that was take on faith-Proving or disproving by scientific means becomes meaningless
The Bible contains doctrinal errors.
We believe that "plain and Precious truths" have been lost over the years hence the restored gospel
Polygamy is an eternal principle. Mormons still believe in polygamy, but just can't practice it right now.
We believe that Polygamy will be practiced in the Celestial Kingdom
Black people were cursed with their black skin because of their inferiority in the pre-existent life.
FALSE
Native American Indians are really Israelites who were cursed with red skin because of their sin.
TRUE on being Israelites False on the Red Skin
The current prophet, Gordon B. Hinckley, is a prophet in exactly the same sense as Moses or Ezekiel in the Bible.
TRUE
He has authority to write new scripture.
He as Prophet, Seer and revelator receives messages from God teh Father-He is not authorized to Write scripture of his own accord
The first LDS prophet, Joseph Smith, saw God the Father in the flesh.
TRUE
Adam did not sin when he ate of the forbidden fruit, but was merely choosing to obey a contradictory command from Jehovah.
FALSE
Jesus shed his blood to offer us the potential to be forgiven if we successfully stop our sins permanently.
FALSE
We cannot be saved (forgiven) by grace alone through faith alone.
FALSE
Secret temple rituals where one learns secret names and secret handshakes contribute to one's exaltation in the celestial kingdom.
FALSE
No non-Mormon is worthy to go inside a dedicated temple.
TRUE
No one who pays less than 10% of their income to the LDS Church is allowed inside a functioning temple.
TRUE
It is possible to eventually become perfect by progressing a little bit at a time through eternal progression
TRUE-But eternal progression continues in the afterlife
He also Includes a letter which goes to great lengths to show how deeply involved in the LDS church his Family is then goes on to talk about his doubts--but never once cites a less comparison of scripture that he claims to find in compatible.
In short this site is nothing more than a rehash of allegation that have been around for over 130 years. And his description of his "life" contains nothing that could not be obtained form even a cursory review of LDS beliefs and practices.
the fact that over 50% of what he posts as LDS beliefs is False or at best a half truth makes me doubt he was ever or member or that his family was
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templelady
site Three "and here this is good too"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exmormonism
This is the online Encyclopedia Wikipedia
They also have this article
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Latt...t_denominations
And this
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Church_of...tter-day_Saints
It presents both sides of the question and wisely stays out of the question as to who is "right"
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templelady
site 4
"And Here quite a sad Story" ( red is discrepansies Blue my comments)
http://cephasministry.com/gail_former_mormon.html
The Testimony of an ex-Mormonby Gail Clark I was told that, "Joseph Smith the founderwas a prophet and that God had restored Christianity through him!"
As a child I never had religion, in the home of my parents were never interested in anything to do with religion. Between the ages of 10-11 I attended Sunday school at a local Anglican Church. I found the church very boring and by the time I was twelve I decided the Church was dead. In my early teens my parents and I moved to Birmingham.
During that time I remember feeling that there must be more to life, the neighborhood where I lived was particularly rough and many of my peers were getting involved in drugs, crime, promiscuity, etc.. With at secondary school I undertook a project on child development, on religious faiths and how different religions bring up their children. I lived a few minutes walk away from the Headquarters of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. ( news alert!! the Headquarters for the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter day Saints is in Salt Lake City Utah) I walked into that office; little did I know how that visit would change my life. Anyway to cut a very long story short I left my name and address there.
Two young missionaries knocked on my door one afternoon. I was invited to a series of meetings at my neighbor's house. Before long I was attending Church, the red carpet treatment was laid on, although I would like to point out that the people were genuine. I received my testimony that Joseph Smith the founder was a prophet and that God had restored Christianity through him. I loved the then-Prophet and believed that the LDS Church was the only true religion on the earth. I withdrew from all my gentile (non-Mormon) friends, ( why??, the LDS church does not advocate this) things with my family became difficult and I believed that when they challenged me over the belief system of the church that the devil was using them to pull me out of the church.
I was baptized into the Church on my 15th birthday (1988).The Church will not baptize a minor without parental consent-the parents don;t have to join but they do have to consent The people were kind and friendly but I was unaware that I lost the ability to think for myself. I never questioned any of the doctrines of the Church. ( Not thinking for oneself-isn;t the LDS churches fault, Twi''s fault or any one else's fault except the person not thinking) For the first two years I was extremely happy. When I reached eighteen things started to change. I felt uncomfortable with the way that women were treated, men "Lording" their authority over women. Women were expected to be wives and Mothers, which is an important role, but women who went out to work were frowned upon. I can remember the then-prophet Ezra Taft Benson giving a speech about women who had careers and were neglecting their children. ( having a career and having a career that puts your child in a secondary position are apples and oranges-Women are encourage to get college educations, Women are also encouraged to stay at home with their small children-this is not anti career the church simply feels that doing two jobs partially well is not as desirable as doing one job well )
I also started to question in my mind the doctrine of baptism of the dead. Mormons believe that everyone has a second chance of receiving salvation. Mormons spend a fortune on tracing their dead relatives in order to be baptized on their behalf and who can then respond to the message and become a Mormon in the afterlife.
When I had these doubts I kept them to myself. The void I felt in my life, as a young child still had not been filled; I tried to work harder at being religious had not realized that being totally legalistic was not what God required of us. ( then she was not paying attention to the message of the LDS church)
The end of the road for my membership finally came about through a work colleague who was educated in Mormonism and was also a born again Christian. He went about telling me about the flaws in Mormonism. He told me that to be a Mormon I had to be a racist, as Mormonism believes that black people are inferior to whites, ( and again with this old tale amazing that she didn't know this nor had never heard it if it was such a pervasive part of Being LDS) ) until 1978 they were not allowed to hold the Priesthood.
I asked my stake president about this. (The Mormon Church is divided up into stakes in a region this would be the equivalent of an Anglican Diocese and then the state would be divided up into wards which is the equivalent of a parish. The stake President is the equivalent of an Anglican bishop and the bishop is the equivalent of the local vicar). If this was true I expected him to deny it, but he said that it was true that the Church had taught this doctrine. I was completely shocked.
I finally decided to leave after watching a television documentary, about Mormonism. The program highlighted that Mormonism was not of God, that the Book of Mormon was a fraud, that the Temple ceremonies are occultic and the Joseph Smith was a liar, an adulterer and basically was a false prophet.
The program also highlighted the Mountain Meadows Massacre and the polygamy that had gone on. ( Events of over 100 years ago- again hardly news or forbidden topics ) I always believed up until that point that polygamy was only practiced as a social security arrangement. After watching the program I phoned my Bishop and told him to remove my name from membership. My request was denied. I had to threaten the Church with legal action, to have my name removed. The request has to be in writing it is a routine request and easily handles ) They visited me for some time to try to persuade me to return. They eventually stopped visiting when I moved to another house. (I did not move for that purpose.)
Although I had left the Church and had no intention of returning, I believed that all other churches were in total error. I tried to attend several churches and also studied other cult religions (i.e. Jehovah's Witnesses, Hare Krishna, Islam, Spiritualism and Unitarians), but these held no interest to me. Something would prevent me from going any further.
For four years I had no affiliation with any religion I often refer to this as my wilderness stage. I was aware that I still had a great void in my life that needed to be filled, but I was unaware of how to fill it. I tried everything: an unsuccessful marriage, lots of failed relationships, nightclubs (I drank heavily). Nothing worked. This was probably the worst time of my life.
Mormonism would not leave me. I would wake and go to sleep every thinking about Mormonism. It was like I did not fit into the world outside of the Mormon Church, but I did not belong inside it either, as I could not be a hypocrite because I knew that it was false. Many people, especially those who have never been part of a cult, do not realize that the cult is your life - you do not have a life outside of it. You lose everything when you join and leave: your friends. your social life. Life is very empty. You need love, fellowship and support.
Then almost five years ago, (March 1996), I was waling around the estate where I lived when I heard music coming from a church. I went in and sat down without even thinking about it. At first I felt a little uncomfortable about being in the church. After a short while a video was put on it was entitled, "Why did Jesus die?" The video was an Alpha course video presented by Nicky Gumbel. The video was very moving. Nicky Gumbel basically presented the gospel.
Finally it all hit me that Jesus had died for my sins and for me. ( this is the central core of LDS beliefs) For many years I believed Christianity to be complicated. I tried to understand the Trinity and how we could be saved by grace, not works. That evening was a particularly emotional time for me. I really felt God's love and presence. I committed my life to the Lord that night and I can honestly say that my life has never been the same.
God has done so much for me. Before I was saved I always felt dirty. To say that I hated myself is an understatement. To feel clean and worthy in God's sight is wonderful. I was also full of phobias: fear of train lines, fear of death. Jesus has completely set me free. Please don't be fooled. Jesus said, "I am the way, the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me" (John 14:6) There is no other way to be right with God. (the LDS Church is in 100% agreement with this)
The God of Mormonism was never satisfied with what I did. I could never do enough. ( NOT! )But that is not what life is meant to be like. We can never earn God's love. Jesus has paid for our sins in full. I now feel that God is calling me to reach out to those who have been deceived.
Mormons are not deceivers - they have been deceived themselves. They are decent, good, kind people and I still love them very much; but Mormonism is a second hand religion. There is no relationship with God. ( this is so incredible a allegation that I am ROFLMAO)Jesus said in John 10:10, "I have come that they may have life and have to the full." Cults unfortunately try to get to God in another way and that is not living life to the full, but being trapped in a cage of legalism. Please don't be fooled. Jesus said, "I am the way, the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me (John 14:6). There is no other way to be right with God. ( this is what is taught over an over in LDS churches week after week after week) If you have been involved in the Mormon Church in any way I urge you to investigate what I am saying. If you have any questions please contact me at the following address. I will respect your confidentiality and will not be pushy, as I know how difficult such a move would be for you. Your eternal destiny is at state. Don't waste your life following a false prophet as you only get one shot. Make the right choice follow the real Jesus today! (Gail Clark can be emailed at: gailclark_uk@yahoo.co.uk). [source: The Evangel, January 2001 p.4]
HERE Again we have the same Anti LDS accusations trotted out and put in the form of a letter supposidly from a former LDS Church Member. Any Person who has ever belonged to The Church can spot this a mile away. All I am trying to do here is show the errors that a person who had been a member would never make--unless they were deliberately lying.
Understand I don;t care of you disagree with the LDS church, I don;t care if you are ExLDS but I do care when you try to bolster your position by out right fabrications or half truths
How about talking about actual LDS doctrine and why you disagree
that would be a useful site
And there are some out there
but the vast majority are filled with the same drivel- after a while you have cross eyes reading the same canned fallacies over and over
How do I know this---because I spent weeks, Months, years reading Every anti site I could find
then spent time researching avery allegation before I joined
I think I did a fairly good job it only took 35 years!
http://www.lds.org/
Last but not least this is the Link to the Church of Jesus Christ Of LAtter Day Saints web site
Fully searchable you can research any topic to your hearts content
I know it is a novel Idea that one would ask LDS what we believe and teach
So much better to get it from people whose knowledge comes from Anti LDS material gleaned from Anti LDS material Gathered from AntiLDS Material printed by persons who wer anti LDS
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allan w.
Nice try Mo....just doesn't wash sorry....the true church (imo) is every b/a saint...there IS NO mormon heaven Mo, sorry.
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Bramble
Didn't we just have an 'Allan W hates Mormons' Thread? Why yes, we did. It was the one where Temple Lady mopped the floor with Allan W--all the while being polite! Yeah...
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LG
I don't agree with either of your beliefs, but templelady has shown courage and grace, both of which are only enhanced by the contrast to Allan's cowardice and indecorum.
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templelady
Outside of the Church people see us as following a group
Inside the church we know ourselves as a group developing a relationship with Christ - being a "group" we are there to encourage and support each other on that road
I hold the view that they were both created by God the father -as does every other denomination I know of
That could be translated into being brothers just as being Joint Heirs with Christ makes Him our brother.
The Family is regarded by the Church as the cornerstone of society. As such we value it and promote family relationships that are spiritually and emotionally healthy for all members. So does God and So did Christ while on earth-Following the prophet--This is not TWI , folks
President Hinckley does not arise every morning to make pronouncements about, chair stringing, red drapes, or go on rants because someone walks into a meeting late. He does not pelt us with demands that are prefaced with "GOD says you must" . In the entire history of the church there have been 138 revelations from God that have been made doctrine. that's all--What God does do is speak to the prophet just as he did to the prophets of old. to exhort and encourage us to eschew sin and Live righteous lives.
For more on what President Hinckley actually says go to the LDS site and do a search on his name or easier yet
http://library.lds.org/nxt/gateway.dll?f=t...r%3Bfield%3ARef
LDS theology does indeed teach that those who attain the highest level of the Celestial Kingdom will have there own planets to rule.
I find this far more palatable than other denominations view that we will appear before God, be judged and banished into outer darkness or achieve eternal life. In that Eternal life we will not have our loved ones around us except at the judgement, and for all eternity we will sit with our eyes gazing at God and Christ while singing their praises--a sort of Exalted zombie-hood.
Science BTW has within the last couple of years discovered that the universe, far from being of Static size, is in fact growing--Wonder Why God needs or wants more Planets?
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TOMMYZ
So are some of these sites to the LDS what the Greasespot is to TWI ?
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allan w.
Yes....and...No; Yes to those who were in twi and can sniff 'cult', 'religion', 'hypocrisy', 'false prophets' etc... a mile off
No to someone who is involved and 'blinded' to the reality.
Thanks for putting this in the spotlight again Mo and to reiterate my previous point...I DONT CARE what you are doing with your life and whatever church you or anyone else is involved with PERIOD.
What grates me is someone like you that was in twi (supposedly) I said supposedly because you posted that you researched mormonism for 35 years ??, what grates me Mo, is the shear hypocrisy of someone like yourself belittling another persons beliefs whilst promoting your own churches elitist and absolutely ridiculous beliefs.
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templelady
There are sites out there that are in what GSC is to TWI
there is a newsgroup Alt.Mormon.org I believe, and probably others. The sites Allan quoted are none of these--
these sites (excluding the encyclopedia) are repeats of repeats of repeats of innuendo, and half truths that have been around since the 1800's.
They are easy to spot. They follow a set pattern
First how great a LDS Church Member the writer was how involved he/she was.
Then how they met someone who showed them the truth--truth A quick look at the sites Allan listed show NOT ONE SINGLE QUOTE from the BOM D&C, Pearl of Great Price, Ensign, Liahona, Conference talks, or any other material that would be readily available to anyone who was actually LDS, to support what they claim are LDS teachings. This Material would also be readily available to anyone who searched the LDS web sites not found in the LDS church. They then go on to spout the drivel (urban legends) that have been around for ever.
The sites, on the other hand, that exist that are for people that are dissatisfied with the LDS church are run as is GSC. They quote directly form LDS scriptures Chapter and Verse. The cite references from LDS materials.
The absence of theis material clearly marks these sites IMO as of questionable value
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TrustAndObey
Yeah, very weird.. That's the best I can put it.. And I'm not trying to be sarcastic.
Mormon doctrine is like visiting the twilight zone.. Your own planet?! Yeah.. Who wants to be God of their own planet? Back to the beginning in Genesis when the devil said, "You can be like God!".. And if you are Mormon, I guess it must be true, eh? Is that what you believe templelady?
I mean, I just don't see any truth.. Our God, the one true God. Who is God of all God's the scriptures state, is really only God of this planet according to the Mormons. And we serve the God of this planet, for this unforseen amount of time in probation (as the Mormon scriptures state), and if we fulfill everything, we then get to go be God of our own planet, and well, the God we used to serve, He's just the God of that planet we used to be with and now don't serve Him anymore.. That's what they teach, am I right? Having had many mormon friends and conversing with them, this is what they have said. Since our God was human at one time like us, and went through this same thing we are going through for the same purpose. This is what the Mormon scriptures state, am I right?
So, I'm just curious then, since what God our Heavenly Father has said, concerning the resurrection in His written word (as in Corinthians all things shall be put under Him AFTER the resurrections), and the Mormons teach you actually get out from under this once human God like yourself. How can you think that what Mormon's teach and their writings are right? They don't line up. Not a yod or a tittle. It's man made from the beginning to the end.
Or do you reject what the Bible states? They don't line up, so it'd be hypocritical to believe both, unless you pick and choose.
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Goey
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VeganXTC
I don't want to take sides. I'm sure both of you are wonderful people and I would be proud to be friends with either of you.
But Allan, why do you care what Templelady believes? I could see if you had a vested interest in her, i.e. she was your sister, daughter, or other relative. I just don't know what's in your heart. I know you don't agree with vegetarian philosophy, but you're cool with me. What's different between you and Templelady?
Templelady, I dated a boy in highschool who went to a LDS church. He was very nice, and his family (all mormon) treated me (non-mormon) well. We would go on dates to his church, where I learned to polka! LOL! God must have been working, because I married Drty Dzn, and moved to Milwaukee where people polka before they can walk! Anyway, this boy and I would go to the movies, and sit in the back row and kiss. Well, we grew up and he went on a mission? Like out WOW? He sent me a letter asking for forgivness for taking advantage of me. I thought, huh? All he did was kiss me. I wasn't too smart back then. The point I'm trying to make is, maybe there are some faults and wrong doctrine to the LDS church, I don't know. But they raise up some fine people. And I think your church is the most fun!
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allan w.
Sorry TempleLady but I had a couple of mormon boys around my place recently (2 weeks ago) who were ADAMANT we cannot be saved by grace alone...either you need to check your churches doctrine again or stop 'dodging'..
In regards to man becomoing a 'type' of god of his/her own planet ? I think it is quite plausible and there are a cupla scriptures that could infer that ...BUT that kind of speculation should not be TAUGHT AS DOCTRINE...
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Cynic
LG,
Allen W. certainly seems somewhat short on decorum. On what basis, however, do you accuse him of cowardice?
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templelady
MORMONISM IS NOT WHAT YOU THINK
Here are some beliefs Mormons resist telling you at first...
The LDS Church is the only true church. The Lord told Joseph Smith personally that all other churches are an "abomination."
The Lord said that some of the teachings being espoused by churches of Joseph Smiths day were abominations
What specific teachings are these so-called "abominations"?
The most serious charge leveled was "priest-craft" Priest craft is when say they are spreading the gospel while at teh same time demanding payment for same-Paid clergy, Housing for clergy paid for by church, charging for the Bible and other scriptures etc
=================
Any non-Mormon church is automatically part of the "church of the devil."
FALSE
We teach non LDS Christians lack the fullness of the restored gospel specifically the Temple and the Ordinances thereof
=======================
No other church has the valid priesthood.
TRUE
Fair enough. The Catholic church believes the same as well as a few others. Join the club.
==========
The devil has even made a pact with many Christian pastors to teach Christian doctrines about the Trinity and salvation by grace.
FALSE
So then the teaching of the Trinity is not "devilish" ? Yes or no ? Salvation by Grace ? Yes or no?
We believe in God the father, Jesus Christ and the HOLY Ghost We believe they are three separate entities, that make yup the Godhead which is one in purpose-
While we do not proclaim that those who believe in the one and the same person of the "trinity" are possessed by the devil or devilish we definitely feel they are incorrect
Salvation is by Grace=Grace being "unmerited favor"
We do not believe in once saved always saved-if you go out and commit murder you do not have a free pass. salvation is a two way deal Christ suffered and died sop that we could have a means of being reunited with God. If we truly accept that gift, obedience to the commandments, comes with it. We are top walk in Christ's footsteps
================
In public we say that all religions are good and have some truth.
TRUE
Ok, but what do you say in private?
The same thing- one of the strongest injunctions in the LDS church is that we are not allowed to judge anyone Else's standing before God Christian or otherwise- God is the trier of men's hearts--That doesn't mean that we all live up to this principal or any other-we are just like everybody fallible humans
==============
There are many gods. We deal with three of these distinct gods from the council of the gods: Elohim, Jehovah, and the Holy Ghost.
UNTRUE there is Heavenly Father, Jesus Christ and the Holy Ghost
Ok, so there is no council of Gods? Yes or no.
No
=============
God, the Father, was once a man like us.
TRUE
Interesting, when was that ?
The specific of The time has not been revealed to us-obviously a time far outside of human awareness
==============
His name is Elohim, and he had a literal father before him. (That means there is a god even higher than God the Father!)
The church has never received revelation on this so anything postulated by anyone is on this subject is speculative
So is this an official denial?
There is no GOD higher than GOD the Father that we are concerned with
Given what we understand about eternal progression that GOD himself was the Son of a bigger GOD is not outside the realm of possibility and could very well be true.
Think of it as Jesus Christ is in charge of the world
God the Father is in charge of the universe
What if this universe is just one universe in a group of universes
Kind of looking in a mirror that reflects another mirror that reflects another mirror on and on to infinity
No one in the Mormon church believes this - yes or no?
If we stop to think about it all of us would believe it--But most people have a full time job just living their life here on earth in a godly manner. If Super GOD exists--we aren't accountable to him God the Father would be, Jesus Christ is Accountable To God the Father and we are accountable to Jesus Christ
Is this speculation allowed? yes or no ?
WE ARE NOT A CULT
we are allowed to speculate, discuss, ponder, think about, examine, this or any other thought that comes to mind--what we are not allowed to do is claim it is codified doctrine when it isn't.
================
We can progress to become gods of our own worlds just like the god Elohim.
Elohim is the Hebrew Word for GOD. THE LDS church does not use the word preferring God the Father or Heavenly Father. We do believe in Spiritual Progression
Vague reply. So then, does the LDS church believe that you can become "gods" like "God the Father" ? Yes or no.
Gods
in the same way that Jesus Christ created this world
We will have Planets
But Jesus Christ will still be our head
God will still be the Head of Jesus Christ
============
Jesus is the brother of the devil, not his creator
GOD the Father is the creator of Both Jesus Christ and Lucifer as well as the other angels and us
That response doesn't address the issue. Does the Mormon church teach, or is there a prevalent belief that Jesus and Satan/Lucifer are "brothers". Yes or no.
Jesus Christ and Lucifer existed pre World
They are both creations of God in fact all spirits are Children of God since they are His
Brother therefore is a valid description
IT is also MY OPINION, held by some other LDS i know, that Lucifer was the original prodigal son
===============
Jesus was not born of a virgin. Elohim had sexual relations with his daughter, Mary, to bring about the conception of Jesus. (Not all Mormons are familiar with this teaching.)
Again there is a big difference from the pondering of man including the prophets and revelation by GOD
Once again , a seeming dodge of the issue. Was Mary a virgin or not? Did God have sex with Mary or not? What is the prevalent belief among Mormons and what is the Official Line on these?
Was Mary a virgin or not?
Mary was a virgin
Did God have sex with Mary or not?
This is another area where we have no direct evaluation from GOD pondering and speculation vary from person to person I know LDS who believe this others do not. What we all agree on is that Jesus Christ is the literal son of God and Mary. The Particulars of how conception took place, while making for interesting discussions, in no way impact the truth of who Jesus Christ is.
What is the prevalent belief among Mormons and what is the Official Line on these?
The Official line is that we agree and concur with the descriptions given in the Gospels of the New Testament
=================
We are not permitted to pray to Jesus, but only to another god named Elohim.
We pray to Heavenly Father
And again a vague reply. Is prayer to Jesus forbidden or not? Yes or no.
We do not Pray to Jesus we pray to God the Father in Jesus Name as instructed by Jesus Christ himself. TO be honest I have never been affiliated with a church (and there have been Many) who opened a prayer with Dear Jesus Christ--This is a concept that makes me wince quite frankly--but that is me
Celestial heaven is near a star called Kolob.
Yes-another something that was take on faith-Proving or disproving by scientific means becomes meaningless
So the LDS Church teaches this with nothing to support it ?
It was given by revelation to President Brigham Young was was at that time our Prophet. We accept it on that basis
=================
The Bible contains doctrinal errors.
We believe that "plain and Precious truths" have been lost over the years hence the restored gospel
So the the answer is yes ?
YES
I take this to mean that the LDS writings are superior to the Bible? Yes or no?
NO
LDS writings complement and expound more deeply on the truths of the Bible I have yet to find anything in LDS scripture that in any way minimizes or contradicts the position of Christ, his attributes, or his teachings I have found that I see more clearly what they are
The LDS website has all the scriptures on line for free if you want to peruse them
============
Polygamy is an eternal principle. Mormons still believe in polygamy, but just can't practice it right now.
We believe that Polygamy will be practiced in the Celestial Kingdom
Another dodge. Answer this, If the civil law would allow it, would polygamy be acceptable to the LDS Church today. Yes or no.
YES
==================
Black people were cursed with their black skin because of their inferiority in the pre-existent life.
FALSE
Ok, but are black people treated as equals with non-blacks in the LDS Church having the same rights and opportunities as anyone else? Yes or no.
YES
=============
Native American Indians are really Israelites who were cursed with red skin because of their sin.
TRUE on being Israelites False on the Red Skin
Interesting belief but quite unsupportable. Another "take it on faith" teaching?
Yup -We believe they are Israelites part of the lost tribes the skin color doesn't; enter into the issue--Red skin isn't mentioned in the scriptures
=================
The current prophet, Gordon B. Hinckley, is a prophet in exactly the same sense as Moses or Ezekiel in the Bible.
TRUE
Ok. Finally a straight answer .....
==============
He has authority to write new scripture.
He as Prophet, Seer and regulator receives messages from God teh Father-He is not authorized to Write scripture of his own accord
With what accord then does the Hinckley/LDS have to write "scripture"? Does a board or committee have to review/ approve Hinckley's revelations or writings first ?
Regardless of committees and boards, doesn't Hinkley pretty much have Carte Blanche on doctrine, kinda like VPW and the Pope? Yes or no.
GOD writes Scripture, God gives revelations
The Hierarchy of the LDS church goes like this
The Prophet
His Councilors (2)
the Apostles (12)
The Quorum of 70
and the several smaller Quorums
Stake presidencies
Ward Bishops
If the Prophet receives Revelation from God it is shared with His Counselors and teh Apostles
IF the Prophet were to come up with a so called Revelations that was out of whack with everything that God has said or even a good chunk of what God had said these gentleman are there to go "Whoa"
And Just because something is given as revelation does not mean it becomes codified as doctrine. There are many revelations
Since Joseph Smiths death in 1844 there have been only 6 revelations codified as doctrine in the LDS Church
==========
The first LDS prophet, Joseph Smith, saw God the Father in the flesh.
TRUE
Another straight answer. I am shocked.
Adam did not sin when he ate of the forbidden fruit, but was merely choosing to obey a contradictory command from Jehovah.
FALSE
Did Adam sin?
YES
Yes or no. Was God's command contradictory? Yes or no.
NO
HE said do not eat of the tree of knowledge or you shall surely
die Adam ate and death entered the world
================
Jesus shed his blood to offer us the potential to be forgiven if we successfully stop our sins permanently.
FALSE
Ok, But what's the real teaching on this? Why did Jesus shed his blood?
Jesus Shed his blood as the sacrifice for us. All through the old Testament, Rams and Bullocks and other animals were ritually slaughtered their blood being the necessary requirement for the forgiving of Israelites sins
In the New Testament
Jesus replaced all those animal offering once and for all
==========
We cannot be saved (forgiven) by grace alone through faith alone.
FALSE
So then we (all humans) can be saved by grace alone through faith, with or without the LDS Church. Is that correct? Yes or no.
YES
The difference is where in Heaven you'll be living "in my fathers house are many mansions"
=============
Secret temple rituals where one learns secret names and secret handshakes contribute to one's exaltation in the celestial kingdom.
FALSE
Ok, but what then goes on there? I know, it's a secret. Shhhhhhh ... So there are no secrest names and no secret handshakes? Is that true?
NO
Or is the denial just saying that these don't contribute to ones exaltation?
That's It Ritual does not make you Worthy to enter Heaven - Following Christ does that
===================.
No non-Mormon is worthy to go inside a dedicated temple.
TRUE
Ok, but what about blacks, other races, and women within the Mormon church ? Do they have the same "worthiness"as the white male members ? Yes or no.
YES
======================
No one who pays less than 10% of their income to the LDS Church is allowed inside a functioning temple.
TRUE
ABS at its finest.
10% is the tithe to God
Not 15% not 11% just 10%
you don't have to tithe to be LDS
YOU need to tithe if you want to enter the Temple
Many LDS don't have recommends
Many LDS don't tithe
it's that individual walk thing
=============
It is possible to eventually become perfect by progressing a little bit at a time through eternal progression
TRUE-But eternal progression continues in the afterlife
Hmm. Seems like a dichotomy to me. How can perfection once attained be improved upon?
Perfection can;t be improved on but because we believe that man continues to learn and grown in the spirit world before Christ's return it is possible to attain perfection there
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templelady
Who wants to be God of their own planet?
As too who wants to be God of their own planet-personally I think it would be kind of fun-designing mountain ranges-creating new animals, the seasons
Back to the beginning in Genesis when the devil said, "You can be like God!".. And if you are Mormon, I guess it must be true, eh? Is that what you believe temple lady?
Satan was playing games with Adam and Eve he wanted them to think they could do without God
I mean, I just don't see any truth.. Our God, the one true God. Who is God of all God's the scriptures state, is really only God of this planet according to the Mormons.
Actually the God who created this Planet is Jesus Christ- Bible says so He did so at the direction of God the Father
And we serve the God of this planet, for this unforeseen amount of time in probation (as the Mormon scriptures state), and if we fulfill everything, we then get to go be God of our own planet, and well, the God we used to serve, He's just the God of that planet we used to be with and now don't serve Him anymore.. That's what they teach, am I right?
Having had many Mormon friends and conversing with them, this is what they have said. Since our God was human at one time like us, and went through this same thing we are going through for the same purpose. This is what the Mormon scriptures state, am I right?
So, I'm just curious then, since what God our Heavenly Father has said, concerning the resurrection in His written word (as in Corinthians all things shall be put under Him AFTER the resurrections), and the Mormons teach you actually get out from under this once human God like yourself.
NOT!!!
God the Father ids God the Father and Jesus Christ is Jesus Christ now and forever as is our relationship to them--Planet making is one of the rewards
How can you think that what Mormon's teach and their writings are right? They don't line up. Not a yod or a tittle. It's man made from the beginning to the end.
Or do you reject what the Bible states? They don't line up, so it'd be hypocritical to believe both, unless you pick and choose
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LG
It's been my impression that Allan dodges the sorts of questions about his beliefs that Templelady answers about hers. I don't really pay much attention to him, so I might be wrong. Maybe he's just a jerk, and not a coward.
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templelady
Okay Allan Let us go down the list of some VPW teachings
1) All women in the Old Testament belonged to the king By extension all woman therefore are here to bless the MOG including sexual intercourse at his demand
true or false?
2) if my child is hit by a drunk driver who careens over the sidewalk Ito my yard that is the result of my lack of believing or wrong believing --true or false?
3) If you don't speak in tongues your aren't born again -true or false?
4) if you can't operate all nine of the manifestations of the spirit all the time you lack believing true or false?
5) failure to follow the directives of leadership, any leadership no matter how bizarre is a sufficient reason for you to be Marked and avoided (excommunicated) and your character smeared true or False?
6) if you aren't ABSing God won't spit in your direction True or false?
7) if you do not follow TWI teachings you will be outside of the household and not be protected by GOD true or false?
These will do for openers
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TheInvisibleDan
Those "Osmond Brothers" sure had straight teeth.
My older sister pinned up posters from "Sixteen" magazine
back in the 70s.
There, staring back at me if perchance I wandered into her room -
- five sets of the biggest, whitest, straightest teeth one ever did see.
I knew a Mormon in school who told me one day that Mormons didn't drink coffee!
(is this true?)
:blink:
God forbid! COFFEE FORBIDDEN?
Let it not be so...let it not...be so....
Danny
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templelady
no coffee, no black tea, no alcohol, no smoking, no illegal drugs
It's called the Word of Wisdom
because of the acids and tannins and carcinogens etc these things are not allowed
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allan w.
I left twi because I didn't agree with half the stuff you quoted Mo, I don't take EVERYTHING as 'gospel' even if it comes out of a 'supposed prophets' mouth, that's the differnce with us Mo I guess: I left twi, you just swapped it for another version.
In reply to your poll...No.1 False No.2 Possible No.3 False (and twi never taught that either) No.4 False
No.5 False No.6 False (or substitute that with...if you don't abs you're not allowed into the (mormon temple) still false ! No.7 False
* Note...these are MY beliefs on your questions Mo...I do not belong to twi anymore, so I guess the question is, how long you gonna hang out at the mormon church ?? Do you believe everything that comes out of your churches prophets mouth ??
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allan w.
Also LG, my beliefs line up withh CFF which most twi'ers should know, saves me a lot of time spelling them all out.
What most posters don't know is what mormonism is all about, that's where I'm happy to help out !
Mo, I've spoken to a cupla of the people from those ex-lds sites and they're more than happy to debate with you and show you that they were involved for a lot longer than you have been, but the last thing this site needs is more of that kind of thing, for the sake of not driving our mods nuts, I did not tell them where I was from or what site I post on.
They did however, strongly urge you to read their articles and also this one
here
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