I'm wondering, because isn't that an open invitation to also bring a lawsuit... I wonder what the women were actually told. in fellowship we were told that LCM made a one-time mistake and that we were not to waste our time going online and reading rumors and lies of people trying to destroy the ministry. none of us knew the depositions were online, especially LCM's own words. if LCM's other victims were as isolated from reality as I was, then neither the women or their husbands had any idea how corrupt the whole thing was.
There should be no secrets in marriage. How many husbands would understand that their wives were coerced with a lie to do it? Then there were some who willingly did it. Each marriage is different. It really doesn't matter what we think. It's up to them to handle their marriage.
I'm sure the instructions HP was given to advise women to tell their husbands was part of an attempt for damage control because they knew he banged more than one woman. If they could get it handled at a marital level, then they wouldn't have to deal with it in a legal level. Trust me, it wasn't about teaching people to be honest. The BOT only looks out for their own interets and to make sure the ministry doesn't get blamed.
you know, I agree with that. and it's also a serious overstepping of authority on the part of HP to "tell" or "instruct" or "counsel" a woman to "go tell your husband"... but isn't that what they do?
I think it's none of your dang business, nor any of ours.
LG, it was none of anybody's business until it went public and was the subject of discussion throughout many households, courtrooms, fellowships and GS since the day it was announced. Each of us has had our own opinions concerning this and expressed them in different ways. I believe that twinot is deserving of his/her opinion whether you think that or not.
LG, if you don't think it is any of your business then that is your opinion. My opinion on this is that you don't need to be telling someone that it is none of their dang business. Just speak for yourself!
My opinion concerning the question is the same as I said in fellowship the evening I was asked. "If it is o.k. with your partner to have sex with someone else then who am I to interfere. Just go at it."
That is a very modern view Skip ...though quite suprising coming from a Christian.
Kind of takes the sting out of what vp and lcm practiced.
The bible is pretty clear though about fornication and adultery. DON`T!
I don't think so, Rascal, the sting is the abuse of power and sexual abuse. The sting for the husbands is the lies and decieving the taking advantage of the person they love the most. The sting is that they were not "cool with it," they did not know about it. If the husband was ok with it and knew about it all along then a) There was never a sting to begin with and b) the marriage probably was never that strong to begin with. But that's the point, it wasn't ok with them and it is/was a hurtful thing for twi leaders to do.
And I agree with Skip, but am no longer a Christian, so you might expect it of me.
I am under the impression that these women should tell their husbands so that it's not between them any more what do you all think?
I think it's none of your dang business, nor any of ours
LG,
Which part? Who the women and their their husbands are, or whether or not these unnamed couples should talk about infidelity?
I agree to the former, but the later is a perfectly valid discussion about marriage, morals, and twi. Which is what I thought twinot was getting at.
Precisely Lindy, it is no suprise for one to espouse that opinion if you are not a practicing Christian.
But if one professes to be a christian ...it was contradictory to the scriptural tenents to give the advice to screw whom ever you please if your spouse doesn`t care.
Twi made it ok to borrow the lable *christian* but not to have to practice the scriptural rules that one was expected to abide by as a christian....
I dunno - can't say what I would do if I was in that situation. I certainly feel that it isn't any of my business to decide what someone else should do.
If I had already dealt with it and moved on, I probably wouldn't tell my spouse because I wouldn't want to drudge all that up again unless I was to the point where I felt strong enough to join in on the lawsuit. If it happened before I got married - I most likely wouldn't mention it either. Not to be sneaky, but to forget about it and move on.
But then again, I always thought I would willingly comply and try to keep my tail alive if I ever got robbed. When it did happen, I got so furious I chased that scuzzbucket nearly three miles before calling the cops with an update on where I had chased him to.
Perhaps this should be a different doctrinal thread, but....
Perhaps it has to do with what adultery is all about and how one defines it. If the Biblical intent was that God only wanted people to have one sexual partner for life then ok. Although, then the OT Kings like David would have been sinning way before Bathsheba. Although, if it had to deal with the lying and deceit involved and the pain and very long term hurt that it brings with it, and the "STEALING of another's only ewe lamb" then perhaps we are talking about something different.
LG, it was none of anybody's business until it went public and was the subject of discussion throughout many households, courtrooms, fellowships and GS since the day it was announced.
What twinot asked about has not gone public. If it had, then the question would be moot, because the husbands would already know. What is not anyone else’s business is whether those wives should tell their husbands. The only way that might become someone else’s business would be if one of those wives were asking for advice.
Lindyhopper, a general discussion about marriage, morals, and twi is fine, but twinot asked about whether or not wives should tell their husbands about their sexual relations with Martindale. That’s not for any of us to say, unless perhaps one of us was directly asked for advice by one of the wives in question. That could at least make it our business, though it might not mean that we should give an answer. If a woman asked me such a thing, I’d probably suggest that she talk to a capable counselor. They could together decide what to do and whether to integrate whatever they chose into a larger counseling scheme.
That is a very modern view Skip ...though quite suprising coming from a Christian.
Kind of takes the sting out of what vp and lcm practiced.
The bible is pretty clear though about fornication and adultery. DON`T!
Rascal, your comment could start a whole new thread like: Why didn't You stand up and say, "That is Wrong"?
I know the Bible says "Don't" but what they do is their business. Right? None of mine. As a Christian, Let God deal with them. TWI has taught allot of things that was, and; still is wrong but I choose not to waste my time on some brainwashed twit who tell lies on people because they call him/her down and question their cult. I prefer to talk about their cult in hopes that people do not become involved and those that are remaining will someday see just how terrible the place and their teaching is.
Correct me if I am wrong, but wasn't it John S. that got booted over a paper on Adultery? That tells me that TWI believes that Adultery is OK and taught that same theory to women who believed sexual intercourse or otherwise was blessing some godly jerk-off.
These are my up-bringing views and they are stronger than ever. TWI, don't get around my kids!
No offense skip, my thoughts when I posted that were kind of along the lines of the many things that have scripturally clear instructions.... that we in twi found ways to skirt around..shrug
I shouldn`t have targeted you, my thoughts and comments (though it really doesn`t appear so) were directed at myself and my own actions during my time in.
If I have understood this thread correctly, the issue at hand is not whether or not adultery is OK,
but rather is it advisable to share such secrets within the context of a marriage.
Yes the Bible is clear about what conduct is acceptable but I don't recall ever seeing a scripture that addressed what conversations or discussions one should have with their spouse regarding things that may have happened in the past. Such discussions would ,of course, become relavent if there were physical ramifications such as STD's or pregnancy or genetic information that might affect their progeny. Psychological damage might also bring a relevancy to the conversation. The past is passed and can't be changed .There is no blanket, fits all advise that fits every situation unless we are considering the possibility that the situation may reoccur. Then,of course, there is plenty of scripture to refer to and guide us in making proper choices.
Some of the women whom VP screwed, he then fixed them up with corps guys.
The poor corps men thought the leadership had an interest in whom they married....
It was a girl crawling out of LCM's bed or VP's bed.
So, does the wife now say, "I was balling VP and he thought you would be a good husband for me. It wasn't revelation or some great interest in you, it was pillow talk and the moggie thought you might be a good one for me to be directed to?"
I have a male friend whose wife used to bang the VIP and then VIP was instumental in fixing them up... He has no idea she used to service the moggie.
twinot, you'd have to wear the shoes of the person to be able to know the costs and gains to all lives involved. If the woman has born the burden of this knowledge why add to her burden by then making another person's life hell and her feel responsible for that, sometimes the gains are not worth the costs.
This was no ordinary cult. It was singularly and particularly nasty. Talk about the right hand not knowing what the left hand was doing! The right hand operated in a blind spot under the table in the dark so that even your left hand couldn't find it it looked! A "lock box" is a beautiful thing if it's governed by love - but it's likely that the first time you learned of it was to hide some ungodly sin or maybe just an "inconvenient" bit of information.
It was an evil maze and there were blind spots where you could be trapped without understanding how you got there and if you asked about a "simple" question concerning something that seemed weird or untoward, your words were turned around on you so that you were made to feel as if you committed some heinous act.
God forgive me for taking any part in any of it at all. At times like these when I really get a glimpse of it's evil I am so ashamed that I was ever even associated with it that my guts rebel!
I believe it possible for a person to not need the extra weight. You said it in example. I thank you for that. But more so I am sorry for your memories.
And if added to such an assault to the heart to a man you would hear other things as great in pain giving, yup. You said it in example. ((you))
This is a terribly difficult topic and there is no "one size fits all" answer. It was abuse, pure (?) and simple, but abuse of a special kind. Some men (as Coolchef is honest to indicate) find it very difficult to think of their women sexually active with another man - especially in this sort of situation. Other men (P@ul All-n) have the guts to go confront it head on. But that was then and may not be an appropriate response now.
For the women involved, if they do not want to tell their husbands, it might be very helpful and a great release to find some other trusted woman friend(s) to talk to (perhaps even another so-abused woman, if one can be located).
Of course, this assumes that the marriage is still intact. Far too many marriages are not, or have already been seriously damaged by the other shenanigans of TWI.
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potato
what do you mean telling them what was going on?
I'm wondering, because isn't that an open invitation to also bring a lawsuit... I wonder what the women were actually told. in fellowship we were told that LCM made a one-time mistake and that we were not to waste our time going online and reading rumors and lies of people trying to destroy the ministry. none of us knew the depositions were online, especially LCM's own words. if LCM's other victims were as isolated from reality as I was, then neither the women or their husbands had any idea how corrupt the whole thing was.
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Nottawayfer
There should be no secrets in marriage. How many husbands would understand that their wives were coerced with a lie to do it? Then there were some who willingly did it. Each marriage is different. It really doesn't matter what we think. It's up to them to handle their marriage.
I'm sure the instructions HP was given to advise women to tell their husbands was part of an attempt for damage control because they knew he banged more than one woman. If they could get it handled at a marital level, then they wouldn't have to deal with it in a legal level. Trust me, it wasn't about teaching people to be honest. The BOT only looks out for their own interets and to make sure the ministry doesn't get blamed.
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LG
I think it's none of your dang business, nor any of ours.
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potato
you know, I agree with that. and it's also a serious overstepping of authority on the part of HP to "tell" or "instruct" or "counsel" a woman to "go tell your husband"... but isn't that what they do?
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skipC
LG, it was none of anybody's business until it went public and was the subject of discussion throughout many households, courtrooms, fellowships and GS since the day it was announced. Each of us has had our own opinions concerning this and expressed them in different ways. I believe that twinot is deserving of his/her opinion whether you think that or not.
LG, if you don't think it is any of your business then that is your opinion. My opinion on this is that you don't need to be telling someone that it is none of their dang business. Just speak for yourself!
My opinion concerning the question is the same as I said in fellowship the evening I was asked. "If it is o.k. with your partner to have sex with someone else then who am I to interfere. Just go at it."
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rascal
That is a very modern view Skip ...though quite suprising coming from a Christian.
Kind of takes the sting out of what vp and lcm practiced.
The bible is pretty clear though about fornication and adultery. DON`T!
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lindyhopper
I don't think so, Rascal, the sting is the abuse of power and sexual abuse. The sting for the husbands is the lies and decieving the taking advantage of the person they love the most. The sting is that they were not "cool with it," they did not know about it. If the husband was ok with it and knew about it all along then a) There was never a sting to begin with and b) the marriage probably was never that strong to begin with. But that's the point, it wasn't ok with them and it is/was a hurtful thing for twi leaders to do.
And I agree with Skip, but am no longer a Christian, so you might expect it of me.
LG,
Which part? Who the women and their their husbands are, or whether or not these unnamed couples should talk about infidelity?
I agree to the former, but the later is a perfectly valid discussion about marriage, morals, and twi. Which is what I thought twinot was getting at.
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rascal
Precisely Lindy, it is no suprise for one to espouse that opinion if you are not a practicing Christian.
But if one professes to be a christian ...it was contradictory to the scriptural tenents to give the advice to screw whom ever you please if your spouse doesn`t care.
Twi made it ok to borrow the lable *christian* but not to have to practice the scriptural rules that one was expected to abide by as a christian....
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Belle
I dunno - can't say what I would do if I was in that situation. I certainly feel that it isn't any of my business to decide what someone else should do.
If I had already dealt with it and moved on, I probably wouldn't tell my spouse because I wouldn't want to drudge all that up again unless I was to the point where I felt strong enough to join in on the lawsuit. If it happened before I got married - I most likely wouldn't mention it either. Not to be sneaky, but to forget about it and move on.
But then again, I always thought I would willingly comply and try to keep my tail alive if I ever got robbed. When it did happen, I got so furious I chased that scuzzbucket nearly three miles before calling the cops with an update on where I had chased him to.
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lindyhopper
Perhaps this should be a different doctrinal thread, but....
Perhaps it has to do with what adultery is all about and how one defines it. If the Biblical intent was that God only wanted people to have one sexual partner for life then ok. Although, then the OT Kings like David would have been sinning way before Bathsheba. Although, if it had to deal with the lying and deceit involved and the pain and very long term hurt that it brings with it, and the "STEALING of another's only ewe lamb" then perhaps we are talking about something different.
Sorry for the tangent. (Heading to the basement)
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LG
What twinot asked about has not gone public. If it had, then the question would be moot, because the husbands would already know. What is not anyone else’s business is whether those wives should tell their husbands. The only way that might become someone else’s business would be if one of those wives were asking for advice.
Lindyhopper, a general discussion about marriage, morals, and twi is fine, but twinot asked about whether or not wives should tell their husbands about their sexual relations with Martindale. That’s not for any of us to say, unless perhaps one of us was directly asked for advice by one of the wives in question. That could at least make it our business, though it might not mean that we should give an answer. If a woman asked me such a thing, I’d probably suggest that she talk to a capable counselor. They could together decide what to do and whether to integrate whatever they chose into a larger counseling scheme.
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skipC
Rascal, your comment could start a whole new thread like: Why didn't You stand up and say, "That is Wrong"?
I know the Bible says "Don't" but what they do is their business. Right? None of mine. As a Christian, Let God deal with them. TWI has taught allot of things that was, and; still is wrong but I choose not to waste my time on some brainwashed twit who tell lies on people because they call him/her down and question their cult. I prefer to talk about their cult in hopes that people do not become involved and those that are remaining will someday see just how terrible the place and their teaching is.
Correct me if I am wrong, but wasn't it John S. that got booted over a paper on Adultery? That tells me that TWI believes that Adultery is OK and taught that same theory to women who believed sexual intercourse or otherwise was blessing some godly jerk-off.
These are my up-bringing views and they are stronger than ever. TWI, don't get around my kids!
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rascal
No offense skip, my thoughts when I posted that were kind of along the lines of the many things that have scripturally clear instructions.... that we in twi found ways to skirt around..shrug
I shouldn`t have targeted you, my thoughts and comments (though it really doesn`t appear so) were directed at myself and my own actions during my time in.
Sorry Skip, I apologise.
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waysider
If I have understood this thread correctly, the issue at hand is not whether or not adultery is OK,
but rather is it advisable to share such secrets within the context of a marriage.
Yes the Bible is clear about what conduct is acceptable but I don't recall ever seeing a scripture that addressed what conversations or discussions one should have with their spouse regarding things that may have happened in the past. Such discussions would ,of course, become relavent if there were physical ramifications such as STD's or pregnancy or genetic information that might affect their progeny. Psychological damage might also bring a relevancy to the conversation. The past is passed and can't be changed .There is no blanket, fits all advise that fits every situation unless we are considering the possibility that the situation may reoccur. Then,of course, there is plenty of scripture to refer to and guide us in making proper choices.
But hey! That's just my opinion.
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Dot Matrix
Well how do you handle this?
Some of the women whom VP screwed, he then fixed them up with corps guys.
The poor corps men thought the leadership had an interest in whom they married....
It was a girl crawling out of LCM's bed or VP's bed.
So, does the wife now say, "I was balling VP and he thought you would be a good husband for me. It wasn't revelation or some great interest in you, it was pillow talk and the moggie thought you might be a good one for me to be directed to?"
I have a male friend whose wife used to bang the VIP and then VIP was instumental in fixing them up... He has no idea she used to service the moggie.
I have always felt bad for him. What a rip off.
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excathedra
has anyone ever thought about the "sin" of neglect of a spouse ? i guess that belongs in the doctrinal dungeon
or in hell
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ChattyKathy
excath, I have thought of that sin, yes.
twinot, you'd have to wear the shoes of the person to be able to know the costs and gains to all lives involved. If the woman has born the burden of this knowledge why add to her burden by then making another person's life hell and her feel responsible for that, sometimes the gains are not worth the costs.
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Dot Matrix
Twinot
If they do tell their husbands, it does break the secret between the Leader and the woman. Otherwise, there is a "special secret" they share.
However, some spouses may not be able to hear that. It could cause them to feel differently towards their wives. Or explode in anger
It depends, in my opinion.
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ChattyKathy
((you))
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krys
This was no ordinary cult. It was singularly and particularly nasty. Talk about the right hand not knowing what the left hand was doing! The right hand operated in a blind spot under the table in the dark so that even your left hand couldn't find it it looked! A "lock box" is a beautiful thing if it's governed by love - but it's likely that the first time you learned of it was to hide some ungodly sin or maybe just an "inconvenient" bit of information.
It was an evil maze and there were blind spots where you could be trapped without understanding how you got there and if you asked about a "simple" question concerning something that seemed weird or untoward, your words were turned around on you so that you were made to feel as if you committed some heinous act.
God forgive me for taking any part in any of it at all. At times like these when I really get a glimpse of it's evil I am so ashamed that I was ever even associated with it that my guts rebel!
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coolchef
i won't say much but let me say this
when the mother of my chrildren told me she cheated on me during a fellowship [twig} i was hurt to the core
i would have rather not known
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ChattyKathy
I believe it possible for a person to not need the extra weight. You said it in example. I thank you for that. But more so I am sorry for your memories.
And if added to such an assault to the heart to a man you would hear other things as great in pain giving, yup. You said it in example. ((you))
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Twinky
This is a terribly difficult topic and there is no "one size fits all" answer. It was abuse, pure (?) and simple, but abuse of a special kind. Some men (as Coolchef is honest to indicate) find it very difficult to think of their women sexually active with another man - especially in this sort of situation. Other men (P@ul All-n) have the guts to go confront it head on. But that was then and may not be an appropriate response now.
For the women involved, if they do not want to tell their husbands, it might be very helpful and a great release to find some other trusted woman friend(s) to talk to (perhaps even another so-abused woman, if one can be located).
Of course, this assumes that the marriage is still intact. Far too many marriages are not, or have already been seriously damaged by the other shenanigans of TWI.
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Scooterpop
Me......from what I have recently learned I believe I would Focus on Jesus Christ and ask the
question....."Should I tell my spouse?" and keep going to Jesus Christ for answers.....
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