I can tell you from experience that the Geerite group I was involved with did have way too much ego. It was their way or the highway. They even made you submit your teachings for approval!!
They exhault VP and try to recreate TWI including camps, fellowlaborours, Classes and even a mini Rock Of Ages. PP IN Tampa and JC in NJ would actually send wows back and forth.
They infer themselves as The Man Of God and love the worship they get from the followers. believers actually made a memory book to praise the man of God's 10 years of service!! I dont think the apostle Paul let believers exhault him. I refused to praise him.
They love all the attention, especially from the young girls who fall over themselves to be with the man of God. Ego? yeah, I think that is a good word for them.
Lets not forget the money. It is a easy living, PP could not support his family, he sold maps. Now he is rooling in the dough!!!
Its a good game that they play. They learned from the best.
Submit teachings for approval? Those offshoot leaders should know that doens't make them any less narcisstic and a$$anine than the guy they wanted to split from, LCM. He was just like that. I guess the crazy doctrine from TWI gets the same results no matter who says it... :blink:
I have no first hand experience with any splinter groups, but as far as I know the majority of them stick with much of VPW's twi teachings. IMO, that base is perfect soil to grow ego, corruption, and abuse. They would have to change a lot to change the outcome. It is still primarily a fundamentalist interpretation of the Bible.
But lets face it, there is a lot of abuse, ego, corruption, and scandel in all kinds of churches. Human weekness is obviously something you can't get around. Another thing I think makes it easier for twi, home based, groups is the small size. They want it to be a personal ministry. They want people's needs to be met on an individual basis. Good intentions, but we are talking about absolute rights and absolute wrongs on every little thing, with "overseers" right over your shoulder a couple of times a week in a small home fellowship. Just wait long enough and you will see leaders overstepping their boundaries.
Go to a mega-church or a church with several hundred people and ministers don't have time to get on an individual, private, friendly level with everyone. You might have a much smaller number of people that are hurt and with that smaller ratio comes less speaking out about it. Plus with a larger group people have the option of not seeking direct attention from the minister. In a small fellowship, it isn't really an option, they are up in your business a few short words from "hello."
I would also consider the leadership training as part of the equation. Many if, not most, major churches have ministrers, preachers, pastors, whatever with degrees in theology and training in the field. There are interview sometimes etc, it is a job, not a volunteer. What sort of criteria is there for home fellowship coordinators. Is there a "corps" type program? IMO, that is not the greatest training for a leader in a church.
That is a very thought provoking point SprawledOut.
Somehow in spite of peoples best intentions, the legalism and control insidiously creeps in.
I think that there is something fundementally incorrect in the doctrinal understanding of twi that can end up corrupting even the most earnest of hearts.
the discussion about CFF in the Open forum got me thinking: what is it about the splinters that causes them to get legalistic and inflexible?...
You know, Sprawled Out - I was wondering the same thing after reading that CFF thread. Good idea for a thread discussion - but I don't having anything to contribute just yet...Maybe it's something addressed in psychology or behavioral sciences. The other night I even Googled "Degradation in religious movements" but got kinda lost on checking out stuff. Just off the top of my head - I'm thinking along the lines of what Rascal shared - it's about the splinter group trying to maintain control of what they started - maybe afraid their thing will go the way of its predecessor [fail] unless they take action.
It's hard to have any evangelical fervor if you think that everybody else is right, too. The Roman Catholic church took the wind out of its own sail when they allowed teh Protestants could go to heaven, too. Fess up: weren't you more involved with (and interested in) witnessing when you felt you had THE truth?
The people who follow along and join up all come with similar baggage. They have first-hand knowledge of evil - well, most of them anyway. Don't you think they come with some type of filter already in place and some little bell that rings at the very slightest sign of imperfection.
And maybe what they see isn't really imperfection at all. You know how many different versions you'll get from 5 witnesses at the same auto accident. They all don't see things the same way...and they were not expecting an accident so as to turn on their "examining eyes".
I have no persoal knowledge of splinter groups either, but it seems like faults may not all lie with the leaders. I think it's only human nature for the followers to read into things something that may not be there if they're coming out of twi.
In my mind a big factor is obedience. If to please God ( or goddess, or what have you) you have to accept the authority of another person over your personal life...sooner or later it is going to get ugly. That leaves too mush room for selfish motivations and manipulation.It is not just ex way groups that have authority structures with no form of evaluation or boundaries set for leadership to answer to. I think some are just naive--but others have their reasons.
My take is that fundamentalist groups of *any* kind usually have little tolerance for original thought or interpretation. By definition, they have the answers and they treat anything else as a threat.
In business, especially in the larger corporate environs which I've been a part of, the temperature and state of the office is usually dictated by the CEO. Either the CEO in the local office or the CEO of the corporate HQs.
I have noticed the corruption, the controll, or lack thereof, gets passed down from the surrounding execs down the chain to the grunt worker, but it always starts or stops at the top. Especially in our little Way Int'l "household" group, the pack mentality ruled at HQ, and consequently filtered down.
From eyewitness testimonies of personal friends and from testimonies in this forum, it seems VP fostered a very competitive and also a very conforming environment amongst the top leadership.
I do think it trickled down, a little leaven leaveneth the whole lump.
What's that verse? For if this counsel or this work be of men, it will come to nought. . .
It seems that many of these splinter groups were created to "preserve the truth."
What truth?
For some, that "truth" is the Word as explained by VPW in the PFAL class.
For others, it included PFAL plus the amendments from whoever's additional insight.
For still others, it was PFAL plus the feel-good of a particular time period, when we were young and free of responsibilities and could hang out after Twig until midnight and go witnessing in a bar and sing Pressed Down's songs in 3-part harmony.
It seems to me that "truth" is not the problem. The problem is in trying to preserve any particular formula for happiness and spirituality. Preserving a formula is the essence of religion.
IMO, the apple doesn't fall far from the tree - the chip off the old block is just a chip of the same mold covered, rotten block.
I think organized religion in general is inherently set up to suppress and control people. Wasn't the temple and gathering places of the sort in the Bible used mostly for commerce and less for actual religious reasons and this is why people were so scared of being excommunicated as such?
Jesus taught everywhere and didn't set up places of worship, nor did he stick to places of worship or encourage people to continue in that vein. It doesn't even seem like the apostles had a true HQ like TWI and the offshoots teach. Heck, even the verses they claim are about classes, wc training, etc. are just private interpretation and require a stretch of the imagination.
Ancient beliefs as far as I can tell from the little that I've read seem to be something passed down, discussed and "worshipped" on a much more personal basis with the generosity and giving being truly "as a man purposeth in his heart" and to an individual, group or situation where the individual can make a direct impact.
Even the emerging "new age" Christian movement is pretty much like that - they have "centers" not churches and no one is bound by any membership and they are encouraged to visit other "centers", activities, locations and to not keep their loyalty to any one center/church. I'm more inclined to go that route - fellowship, learning and whatnot when it's what I need, small gatherings of true friends to discuss, debate and share knowledge as well as personal, alone time with my own thoughts and such.
But then again, there are those of us who have been turned off from organized religion thanks to TWI. ;)
I think organized religion in general is inherently set up to suppress and control people.
I didn't want to go there on this thread, but since you said it way better than I would have....I totally agree.
But then again, there are those of us who have been turned off from organized religion thanks to TWI.
Well, I never liked this sort of thinking. Maybe it isn't your thinking, but just the way you said it. It sounds similar to the "you don't believe in God anymore, because you were burned by twi" mentality. It makes our decisions sound reactionary. TWI did help some of us get to a point where we would consider thoughts like this through their excessive control, and to a point that part is reactionary...the thought process in the beginning. Once you get to the point of making a decision, whether it be to not believe in God anymore or not to agree with organized religion, you have thought it through a lot more, as your post displayed.
This is the same for all of use to varying degrees. Whether it was just getting to the point of leaving or becoming agnostic or seeing doctrinal error or realising the abuses were going on and twi should be held accountable. There was always a starting point in which we doubted and questioned and eventually there was a point of decision. In between, hopefully, a lot of thought occured.
In business, especially in the larger corporate environs which I've been a part of, the temperature and state of the office is usually dictated by the CEO. Either the CEO in the local office or the CEO of the corporate HQs.
Very true. What they call the "corporate culture" is started, and maintained by the attitude of folks at the top. Not only by what they do and say but by who they reward, promote and praise (and why) and who they do the opposite to.
There are some key differences between a business and a cult (or other type of ministry). A business exists to serve customers who are outsiders, not employees or insiders. Success is measured in dollars. So the measurement of success is not as open to re-definition by the leaders. And because of that you see businesses with all range of cultures showing success. There is evidence to suggest that a more open, flexible and supportive culture generates more financial success than a closed, authoritarian culture - but you'll find many who disagree.
Since cults exist for "the truth" (whatever that means) it's a lot harder for them to seem successful with anything but a top-down authoritarian culture. And how success is measured is changeable. We saw that with the way - when numbers were increasing it was touted as a sign of success. When numbers decreased that was shown as success too - which was now defined as the remnant who were staying true to the truth.
thanks for all your insights. amazingly, i agree with most, if not all, of what's been said here--especially what belle said about religion being set up to control people. (I just finished reading Guns, Germs and Steel, and the author talked briefly about exactly that--how religion evolved as a method of keeping large populations under control.)
but i keep coming back to "what's at the root of it?" i can only speak with any experiential authority about CES, so i'll just talk about that. i know those guys started with the best of intentions. they knew the pitfalls. they knew what they were trying not to be. and yet it seems they became it, anyway.
i think it may be just the nature of organized religion. of course, it doesn't help when you start off with people that are creeps to begin with. (i'm not naming any names here!) but even if you don't, once it becomes a going concern, the powers that be are going to want to consolidate their position. and then you're screwed.
that's why, to quote the original Groucho Marx, "Whatever it is, I'm against it!" :P
Yeah, Sprawled One, it's sorta like it's impossible to be an honest politician and maintain your integrity the longer you're in it and the further up the ladder you get. The most honest ones usually end up becoming corrupt jerks and easily manipulated.
If you liked that book, which I'll look into, btw - thanks. You'll love Elaine Pagel's "The Origin of Satan" another poster on here turned me on to that one. Very interesting perspective.
I get what you're saying Lindy and I just didn't know the best way to put it. I'm not in any way trying to make a blanket statement about TWI influencing folks to act, believe or behave one way or another, but it DID, I think, give many of us pause to think about where we were, why we acted/believed certain ways. Because of that some gave up religion, some gave up organized religion, some went back to the church they grew up in, etc. We all had different responses to our experience, but it did put us into positions of re-evaluating what, why, when, where, how and why of beliefs, worship and religion in general.
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pinklady
I can tell you from experience that the Geerite group I was involved with did have way too much ego. It was their way or the highway. They even made you submit your teachings for approval!!
They exhault VP and try to recreate TWI including camps, fellowlaborours, Classes and even a mini Rock Of Ages. PP IN Tampa and JC in NJ would actually send wows back and forth.
They infer themselves as The Man Of God and love the worship they get from the followers. believers actually made a memory book to praise the man of God's 10 years of service!! I dont think the apostle Paul let believers exhault him. I refused to praise him.
They love all the attention, especially from the young girls who fall over themselves to be with the man of God. Ego? yeah, I think that is a good word for them.
Lets not forget the money. It is a easy living, PP could not support his family, he sold maps. Now he is rooling in the dough!!!
Its a good game that they play. They learned from the best.
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Nottawayfer
Submit teachings for approval? Those offshoot leaders should know that doens't make them any less narcisstic and a$$anine than the guy they wanted to split from, LCM. He was just like that. I guess the crazy doctrine from TWI gets the same results no matter who says it... :blink:
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lindyhopper
I have no first hand experience with any splinter groups, but as far as I know the majority of them stick with much of VPW's twi teachings. IMO, that base is perfect soil to grow ego, corruption, and abuse. They would have to change a lot to change the outcome. It is still primarily a fundamentalist interpretation of the Bible.
But lets face it, there is a lot of abuse, ego, corruption, and scandel in all kinds of churches. Human weekness is obviously something you can't get around. Another thing I think makes it easier for twi, home based, groups is the small size. They want it to be a personal ministry. They want people's needs to be met on an individual basis. Good intentions, but we are talking about absolute rights and absolute wrongs on every little thing, with "overseers" right over your shoulder a couple of times a week in a small home fellowship. Just wait long enough and you will see leaders overstepping their boundaries.
Go to a mega-church or a church with several hundred people and ministers don't have time to get on an individual, private, friendly level with everyone. You might have a much smaller number of people that are hurt and with that smaller ratio comes less speaking out about it. Plus with a larger group people have the option of not seeking direct attention from the minister. In a small fellowship, it isn't really an option, they are up in your business a few short words from "hello."
I would also consider the leadership training as part of the equation. Many if, not most, major churches have ministrers, preachers, pastors, whatever with degrees in theology and training in the field. There are interview sometimes etc, it is a job, not a volunteer. What sort of criteria is there for home fellowship coordinators. Is there a "corps" type program? IMO, that is not the greatest training for a leader in a church.
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templelady
If the teaching of "the Word" is predicated on the MOG getting revelation
And the MOG is dead
just exactly where or what can one do but paddle in endless circles?
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rascal
That is a very thought provoking point SprawledOut.
Somehow in spite of peoples best intentions, the legalism and control insidiously creeps in.
I think that there is something fundementally incorrect in the doctrinal understanding of twi that can end up corrupting even the most earnest of hearts.
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T-Bone
You know, Sprawled Out - I was wondering the same thing after reading that CFF thread. Good idea for a thread discussion - but I don't having anything to contribute just yet...Maybe it's something addressed in psychology or behavioral sciences. The other night I even Googled "Degradation in religious movements" but got kinda lost on checking out stuff. Just off the top of my head - I'm thinking along the lines of what Rascal shared - it's about the splinter group trying to maintain control of what they started - maybe afraid their thing will go the way of its predecessor [fail] unless they take action.
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GeorgeStGeorge
It's hard to have any evangelical fervor if you think that everybody else is right, too. The Roman Catholic church took the wind out of its own sail when they allowed teh Protestants could go to heaven, too. Fess up: weren't you more involved with (and interested in) witnessing when you felt you had THE truth?
George
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krys
The people who follow along and join up all come with similar baggage. They have first-hand knowledge of evil - well, most of them anyway. Don't you think they come with some type of filter already in place and some little bell that rings at the very slightest sign of imperfection.
And maybe what they see isn't really imperfection at all. You know how many different versions you'll get from 5 witnesses at the same auto accident. They all don't see things the same way...and they were not expecting an accident so as to turn on their "examining eyes".
I have no persoal knowledge of splinter groups either, but it seems like faults may not all lie with the leaders. I think it's only human nature for the followers to read into things something that may not be there if they're coming out of twi.
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Bramble
In my mind a big factor is obedience. If to please God ( or goddess, or what have you) you have to accept the authority of another person over your personal life...sooner or later it is going to get ugly. That leaves too mush room for selfish motivations and manipulation.It is not just ex way groups that have authority structures with no form of evaluation or boundaries set for leadership to answer to. I think some are just naive--but others have their reasons.
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johniam
Fossilized?
"Help I'm a rock! Help I'm a rock! It's a drag being a rock. I'd almost want to be a cop than to be a rock. Help I'm a cop! Help I'm a cop!"
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1 john 3:1
Oh well!
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Jim
My take is that fundamentalist groups of *any* kind usually have little tolerance for original thought or interpretation. By definition, they have the answers and they treat anything else as a threat.
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now I see
In business, especially in the larger corporate environs which I've been a part of, the temperature and state of the office is usually dictated by the CEO. Either the CEO in the local office or the CEO of the corporate HQs.
I have noticed the corruption, the controll, or lack thereof, gets passed down from the surrounding execs down the chain to the grunt worker, but it always starts or stops at the top. Especially in our little Way Int'l "household" group, the pack mentality ruled at HQ, and consequently filtered down.
From eyewitness testimonies of personal friends and from testimonies in this forum, it seems VP fostered a very competitive and also a very conforming environment amongst the top leadership.
I do think it trickled down, a little leaven leaveneth the whole lump.
What's that verse? For if this counsel or this work be of men, it will come to nought. . .
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WordWolf
Let's see.....
Top leaders are convinced they have THE Truth, and other Christians are lesser and lack THE Truth.
Top leaders are autocrats and not accountable for anything.
Dissent/disagreement of all kinds is stomped flat ASAP.
Add in all the poison concealed in their own training, and practice at glossing over evil
(how many of them, to this day, have never come clean about EVER knowing
ANYTHING vpw did?),
and you're overqualified to be Lord Over God's Heritage and abuse his people.
The filthy lucre is a bonus.
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shazdancer
It seems that many of these splinter groups were created to "preserve the truth."
What truth?
For some, that "truth" is the Word as explained by VPW in the PFAL class.
For others, it included PFAL plus the amendments from whoever's additional insight.
For still others, it was PFAL plus the feel-good of a particular time period, when we were young and free of responsibilities and could hang out after Twig until midnight and go witnessing in a bar and sing Pressed Down's songs in 3-part harmony.
It seems to me that "truth" is not the problem. The problem is in trying to preserve any particular formula for happiness and spirituality. Preserving a formula is the essence of religion.
It tends to leave God out.
Regards,
Shaz
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Belle
IMO, the apple doesn't fall far from the tree - the chip off the old block is just a chip of the same mold covered, rotten block.
I think organized religion in general is inherently set up to suppress and control people. Wasn't the temple and gathering places of the sort in the Bible used mostly for commerce and less for actual religious reasons and this is why people were so scared of being excommunicated as such?
Jesus taught everywhere and didn't set up places of worship, nor did he stick to places of worship or encourage people to continue in that vein. It doesn't even seem like the apostles had a true HQ like TWI and the offshoots teach. Heck, even the verses they claim are about classes, wc training, etc. are just private interpretation and require a stretch of the imagination.
Ancient beliefs as far as I can tell from the little that I've read seem to be something passed down, discussed and "worshipped" on a much more personal basis with the generosity and giving being truly "as a man purposeth in his heart" and to an individual, group or situation where the individual can make a direct impact.
Even the emerging "new age" Christian movement is pretty much like that - they have "centers" not churches and no one is bound by any membership and they are encouraged to visit other "centers", activities, locations and to not keep their loyalty to any one center/church. I'm more inclined to go that route - fellowship, learning and whatnot when it's what I need, small gatherings of true friends to discuss, debate and share knowledge as well as personal, alone time with my own thoughts and such.
But then again, there are those of us who have been turned off from organized religion thanks to TWI. ;)
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lindyhopper
Well, I never liked this sort of thinking. Maybe it isn't your thinking, but just the way you said it. It sounds similar to the "you don't believe in God anymore, because you were burned by twi" mentality. It makes our decisions sound reactionary. TWI did help some of us get to a point where we would consider thoughts like this through their excessive control, and to a point that part is reactionary...the thought process in the beginning. Once you get to the point of making a decision, whether it be to not believe in God anymore or not to agree with organized religion, you have thought it through a lot more, as your post displayed.
This is the same for all of use to varying degrees. Whether it was just getting to the point of leaving or becoming agnostic or seeing doctrinal error or realising the abuses were going on and twi should be held accountable. There was always a starting point in which we doubted and questioned and eventually there was a point of decision. In between, hopefully, a lot of thought occured.
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My3Cents
Very true. What they call the "corporate culture" is started, and maintained by the attitude of folks at the top. Not only by what they do and say but by who they reward, promote and praise (and why) and who they do the opposite to.
There are some key differences between a business and a cult (or other type of ministry). A business exists to serve customers who are outsiders, not employees or insiders. Success is measured in dollars. So the measurement of success is not as open to re-definition by the leaders. And because of that you see businesses with all range of cultures showing success. There is evidence to suggest that a more open, flexible and supportive culture generates more financial success than a closed, authoritarian culture - but you'll find many who disagree.
Since cults exist for "the truth" (whatever that means) it's a lot harder for them to seem successful with anything but a top-down authoritarian culture. And how success is measured is changeable. We saw that with the way - when numbers were increasing it was touted as a sign of success. When numbers decreased that was shown as success too - which was now defined as the remnant who were staying true to the truth.
Crazy if you ask me.
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sprawled out
thanks for all your insights. amazingly, i agree with most, if not all, of what's been said here--especially what belle said about religion being set up to control people. (I just finished reading Guns, Germs and Steel, and the author talked briefly about exactly that--how religion evolved as a method of keeping large populations under control.)
but i keep coming back to "what's at the root of it?" i can only speak with any experiential authority about CES, so i'll just talk about that. i know those guys started with the best of intentions. they knew the pitfalls. they knew what they were trying not to be. and yet it seems they became it, anyway.
i think it may be just the nature of organized religion. of course, it doesn't help when you start off with people that are creeps to begin with. (i'm not naming any names here!) but even if you don't, once it becomes a going concern, the powers that be are going to want to consolidate their position. and then you're screwed.
that's why, to quote the original Groucho Marx, "Whatever it is, I'm against it!" :P
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Belle
Yeah, Sprawled One, it's sorta like it's impossible to be an honest politician and maintain your integrity the longer you're in it and the further up the ladder you get. The most honest ones usually end up becoming corrupt jerks and easily manipulated.
If you liked that book, which I'll look into, btw - thanks. You'll love Elaine Pagel's "The Origin of Satan" another poster on here turned me on to that one. Very interesting perspective.
I get what you're saying Lindy and I just didn't know the best way to put it. I'm not in any way trying to make a blanket statement about TWI influencing folks to act, believe or behave one way or another, but it DID, I think, give many of us pause to think about where we were, why we acted/believed certain ways. Because of that some gave up religion, some gave up organized religion, some went back to the church they grew up in, etc. We all had different responses to our experience, but it did put us into positions of re-evaluating what, why, when, where, how and why of beliefs, worship and religion in general.
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lindyhopper
agreed
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