Oh, and one more thing, Heartman. CFF has not gone down the tubes at all. In fact from what I hear they have more "members" than ever before. And with Gigou's having moved there starting to run things it looks to be a success in the making. Interesting Sara will be on board. They have a lot of ability.
I look for TWI to make a modest comeback too after certain people die off (hurry, hurry ). They have more money than Jesus. They ain't goin nowhere either.
I know of a couple that went there until about 18 months ago. The couple had no contact from them for 18 months or maybe a bit more. Suddenly, out of the blue, last week CFF showed up at their door when the couple wasn't home and talked to their kids telling the kids they were possessed and they had come to deliver them from devil spirits. They had the kids totally freaked out after a couple of hours. The parents came home and threw them out of the house. As they left the told the kids that their parents were being "total bitches". Then they called the kids on the kids' cell and tried to get the kids to meet them someplace. What a bunch of arsessss. Naturally the kids will still think of some of the things these folks said to them and ideas that were put in their heads. Hard enough to deal with kids growing up in this world without an outsider that isn't even welcome barging into your home and trying to stir the pot.
My wife and I have had great help from CFF the past year. Tender treatment, good teaching, gifts of healing, etc. My belief in God's goodness and ever ready supply was re-established. I was never taught by CFF to go to "the household" to get my need met or take a class or any other TWI equivalent work to get deliverance.
No allegience was requested. At their Family reunion in August, people were exhorted to find a LOCAL
fellowship or CHURCH in which to function. No long distance "membership" program. In this Monday's
newletter folks were encouraged to participate a local fellowship or church where they were blessed or to
start their own fellowship/church if their current group or leaders was not satisfactory to them. :)
So in my context, maybe the "spies" were sent, maybe someone just took it upon themselves to spy in the name of CFF, maybe the "spies" were invited. Maybe it never happened. If it did happen a logical point
my wife raised was when someone represents a business or church as an affiliate, the "name" group wants
to know if their affiliate is representing them as they want to be represented. That said, going into a
meeting with the motive of "being a spy" for someone else is wrong.
My and our experiences with CFF are recent and VERY helpful. No group is perfect nor does one have the
whole truth, but some are much closer to the truth than others. I think CFF falls into that category.
And FYI our local fellowship is not affiliated with CFF, but several people listen to their tapes, classes, etc.
We do not solicit money for CFF.
I/we are not recruiting for CFF, but I am standing up to say any comparsion between them and TWI is
like comparing citizenship in the US to Russia or China
I have to agree with you Pipes, I have never heard any of the bs that has been spread here and I have been involved with CFF & many other "loving" splinter groups. If the doctrine being talked about is way out in left field, then I would not want to fellowship with that group either and perhaps they were trying to get a grip on what was being taught. I don't think that's strange. For instance if someone started teaching something very far out about healing and it became "spiritual" in my mind according to what the WORD says, not VP or any other minister, I would not want to have anything to do with them either, so perhaps they were protecting the Body of Christ with what they know of the Word. So let's not run off with rumor here and start spreading garbage that we know nothing about. I would lean on the side of cutting some slack here.
I am sorry that some of your had bad experiences here and are glad to hear that things are going well now and you have healed. None of us are perfect and we all give advice at times that we believe God is working in us and who knows, maybe we all make the same mistakes.
It's so sad when there is division and no I have not rec'd a letter about anyone. There is one believer who is teaching some far out stuff on healing (which according to the Word should be simple) and yes I don't have to agree with what he is teaching, since it's not documented in the Word. And I would be the 1st person to explain to someone that I do not believe his doctrine is from the Word and then show them why.
It was explained very lovingly in a SNS tape that this person does not fellowship with CFF anymore and I don't find that "legalistic" in any way. Oh well............
Though not directly affiliated with CFF I have at times met together with the group here for joint events. We have had several of the CFF teachers come here including John ,Wayne and Research Geek Catcup's husband who posts here . I have had none of the indicated problems with any of them, the last weekend we had four fellowships get together a "geer group" from Chicago a "CFF group" and a couple of independent fellowships. Geek came out from Ohio to teach as well as some from Chicago. We all stayed together for the weekend at the camp cabins and there was no hint of any cross group problems. We had a party and dance in a hall that we turned into a fifties diner and we had Sunday fellowship in the diner with coffee and rolls and a lunch following. Something is lacking in this story above it seems to me.
I agree with you Dove, John & Wayne do not tell anyone how to run their fellowships but make themselves available if the needs arise & yes the coordinators are responsible to see that the doctrine is on the Word to the best of their ability. They are both the best and do their best to bless God's people.
And from Heartman
"This has been very interesting and I am sorry I brought it up. I usually only read here and dont post. I only know what has happened here in the southeast. But all of the responces that I have seen have some truth in them. Dove you are correct and I wish we could all just get along and move the Word and help people be there best for God. However it appears that will not be the case. I guess at some point as the groups grow and begin to get more people they will have to come to the point of US and THEM. And so it goes, we have Methodist, catholics, splinter groups and ex wayfers.............I know all of the players in this sad drama and none want to hurt anyone and all believe they are helping everyone and talking and walking for God---so who is right and who is wrong? I guess at the gathering we will find out."
Heartman, perhaps what happens in the south east should stay in the south east. This is exactly how rumors get started and after all it's you opinion of a situation that apparantely you were not even directly involved with, you just "heard" from what you said.
I don't what you intended to do here but personally I would put more creditibility to what I see and hear myself than any rumor being spread by someone with a ficticious name that we all use here.
I know of a couple that went there until about 18 months ago. The couple had no contact from them for 18 months or maybe a bit more. Suddenly, out of the blue, last week CFF showed up at their door when the couple wasn't home and talked to their kids telling the kids they were possessed and they had come to deliver them from devil spirits. They had the kids totally freaked out after a couple of hours. The parents came home and threw them out of the house. As they left the told the kids that their parents were being "total bitches". Then they called the kids on the kids' cell and tried to get the kids to meet them someplace. What a bunch of arsessss. Naturally the kids will still think of some of the things these folks said to them and ideas that were put in their heads. Hard enough to deal with kids growing up in this world without an outsider that isn't even welcome barging into your home and trying to stir the pot.
Sogwop this is bs! I do not believe you. Sorry but this one is way far out and on your authority? CFF showed up at their door? CFF WHO! Come on and stop the crap...........gimme a break. John & Wayne would not sanction that nor condone it either.
But I have thought about this prior to this thread.
If I started a fellowship and it was hot for God and it began to grow....
How would I deal with growth?
Suppose someone I trusted wanted to have another fellowship associated with mine. How would I know if they went off the deep end and were using the association with me to move their teachings?
Really.
Put the shoes on for a moment.
You have a hot fellowship
People adore coming and are having great God things happen
Then, picture a guy in your association wants to split the group in expansion and it is a good idea as the group is large.
Next, you hear that someone maybe preaching weird stuff. Whatever, let's say he begins to advocate multiple brides. How else do you check it out? You go listen and see what is happening.
If the fellowship is hot you tell the nay Sayers to go pound sand, if its not you have to deal with that.... I don't see anyway around it.
Now, the problem then comes in when I get full of myself and have the POWER to decide what is taught---
How do I stay pure?
I might have a small group of researching believers (not yes men) to confer with.
If CFF was checking on people associated with them to see what they taught -- well, I don't see anyway around it. If they are becoming nuts about it then the group, the watchdogs need to step forward and say something.
We all need help walking this walk. If what SOGWAP heard, I do not doubt she was told that, was true then there maybe some problems.
If what she was told was a half-truth or an exaggerated version then that needs to be considered.
Here is the question:
How would you grow a church? And make sure that your associated fellowships were not teaching adultery? OR perverted financial things? Or hurting kids? You would have to go find out wouldn't you?
I don't know if CFF is "off" or "on". I just do not see anyway to check on things being taught other than check on things being taught. NOT a written submission, which cuts out spontaneity or the HS working in your heart, but to PREVENT the horrible secret teachings done by the TWI elitist or the David Coreshes?
It must be hard trying to do all of this. One can only pray they are pure at heart and humble before God and if one sees they are not then confront them, if you think they are off the deep end then leave. Any good “company” group” “church” needs to have feed back. But any good “Leader” needs to have checks and balances.
I have taken a long hard look at the "spin-offs" as they are called...one thing continues to resound in me, and that is that as long as man has anything to do with anything...you can bet your $80 or whatever it costs, there will probably be something just not exactly perfect.
For example religion, politics, spin-offs...heck, look what man has done to God's Word..."The version for to day folks is"_______you fill in the blank.
I had been criticized, encouraged, reproofed up to my neck over the years for one reason or another..."Why don't you sell out", "Why don't you commit"? Must be my conservative-Lancaster County upbringing, I don't know...but I have always trusted with caution and just cause I want something to be so, doesn't make it so...doesn't change who and what I am either. Thank God for that. That's what I hold on to.
I have been able to sit in different fellowships from time to time, different church services and get something out of it...sometimes not...and sure we got to weed through it all, but until the BS surfaces, I just sit back, then I make a decision. This skinny little butt is tired of getting burned too.
That guy did this and this guy did that...All I know for sure is, that God is the ultimate Healer of hearts and lives...we all know that.
I am so thankful to know what I know, to continue to learn deeper truths of the Word...not someones version or ideas about it. I want to learn to love as He loved, forgive as He forgave and let that peace of God rule in me.
Unfortunately, tons of hurt and damage has occured in ministrys & peoples lives. Families have been torn apart as a result. Dang...I want to spit in the devils eye
I thank God for all of you too...I've said it in the past in other posts'; that so many of you have been so instrumental in my healing process and I am so thankful.
excie said it best...I'm just looking for the next church
I've never heard or seen anything but good from CFFM directly. We enjoy their CD's, and have attended one large get-together. Everyone was more than wonderful, and God was the main topic!
I agree w/ Oilfieldmedic... except I'd like to dig the devils eyes out
I guess I'll chime in too. Mr. Pipes, Dooj, OFM, and Excath state my sentiments/perception pretty well. Igotout, yes..thank you for the clarification.
I don't "agree" with all the CFF doctrine... I'm unlearning/relearning so much now. I do know that God put CFF right in front of me when I was looking for a place to turn when I was exiting TWI. I do know that W*yn* has ministered personally deeply to my soul and helped me tremendously. CFF has asked nothing for itself in return.
Like some have said, we are to be "cautious" all the while trusting God/Christ to lead us where it is we need to be at a particular time in order to let Him do His work within us. For me that has been CFF, CES, GSC, and a hosts of other individuals and a few other groups. LIke OFM (and I think most of us), I am thankful for all the people He has put in my path.
IMO, this thread is a healthy discussion and example of not allowing elephants to hide in rooms. Like Tiny Tim said, "God bless us, each and every one." (Wasn't it Tiny Tim who said that?)
"Well, I guess it's no surprise for me either. As I understand it, there are a whole lot of people with CFF that stayed all the way until Craig got caught with his tallywhacker where it shouldn't have been. And if that was the "final straw" that caused the people to leave, then they weren't really paying very much attention in the first place, because there were many many things that were way off the Word besides all of the adultry, rape, and coercion that surrounded them. The very obsessive micro-management alone was so far from the old TWI days, that I am surprised any old timers like Shroyer stuck around. To me, it seems like to stick around that long and finally leave because of the "Craig getting busted" thing tells me that they were not too sharp at all, to then go and start a full fledged "ministry". So, no surprise that it's taken this turn..."
For the record--I have to say, in J0hn Shr0yer's defense, that he left well before Craig and his tallywhacker got caught!
Don't feel bad, Heartman, this is how things get aired out. :) It can get ugly sometimes, but when things can be discussed on here maturely, there's usually something we can all get out of it. Apparently someone only told you part of the story. My belief is that there are three sides to every story - his, hers and what really happened. ^_^ I was married to a police officer for seven years - so sue me.
1 John 3:1,
It was explained very lovingly in a SNS tape that this person does not fellowship with CFF anymore and I don't find that "legalistic" in any way. Oh well............
I'm curious as to why there has to be an announcement about people who don't fellowship with a group anymore. What was said about this person? Is this standard protocol for CFF when someone leaves the fold?
I didn't read where SOGWOP mentioned any names in particular and she has already been dragged across the coals for telling her TWI experience on here and I think it's extremely unfair, unkind, unchristian and totally uncalled-for to call someone a liar when one doesn't have all the facts. Ask questions before making accusations or A-S-S U mptions. It generally saves embarrassment down the road.
CFF and other offshoots are usually as heated discussions as those about TWI can get. I think it's because some of us continue to follow men more than we'd like to think we do. When someone says something bad about a person we admire, respect and elevate above others to some degree, we get defensive rather than looking further into what's being said or implied. We forget that vee pee and the other vultures with TWI were very kind and helpful to some while being very destructive and vicious with others.
Also, there are some terrible things that happen(ed) without leadership knowledge and, should they learn of said situations, one would hope that they would act swiftly and lovingly to repair any damage to the individuals involved as well as taking care of the perpetrators.
Offshoots and anything that remotely resembles TWI is extremely distasteful to me personally, but I can see where it's a good transition to independence, growth and healing for some and still, for others, their choice for permanent spiritual fulfillment and fellowship. To each his own and none of us is wrong.
I'm curious as to why there has to be an announcement about people who don't fellowship with a group anymore. What was said about this person? Is this standard protocol for CFF when someone leaves the fold?
Belle In my experience I have not known this to be the norm for CFF in this case they may have agreed to be a CFF referral fellowship. CFF has for some time supplied independent fellowships with teaching material and classes and so forth. At some point they wanted to have fellowships around the country that they could send people to that had left the Way they felt were a good place to send them. If you signed on for such then of coarse they expected that you were in agreement with their general teachings. The individual involved was involved with their clergy meetings and had taught at their teaching center in Ohio. He is someone who is well known from his Way days. I would guess that because of his ability to impact many, thinking he was teaching their beliefs they felt it was necessary to inform people that he was not.
Much like the Geer discussion I suppose they did not want to be held accountable for someone involved with their group who may operate on his own and cause some damage to someone that others would feel somehow would then be their responsibility. They just wanted to let others know that this person was not speaking for them or their doctrine.
CFF? John L? From hell's heart I stab at thee; for hate's sake I spit at thee... from Herman Melville... a thief and liar no different from BOT. I watched him destroy lives with a wave of his hand and never looked back. If he burns I will buy the beer.
Apparently Rev. Ken got Tom & Ann into a doctrine called Theophostics. Here area coup[le of links but Google it for yourself to see what it is all about.
Ok IF this is the same Rev Ken that has a last name that begins with an "S" and IF this man was in Texas for a Long@$$ time - then he is the scum of the earth. This is his way - he gets in with a sucessful group, learns what works for them and mimics them , becomes involved and trusted. THEN he starts to move on his own. He pulls followers away from the original ministry and tries to start his own. AND while he does this - he boinks as many of the women as he possibly can - all this while trying to keep up the pretense of being a minister collecting abs.
How do I know this? Try watching the destruction unfold before my eyes. In the process he told the local believers that I had walked away from God. Oh - and no, he didn't boink me - but he sure as heck tried.
Hmmm, in reading through the Theo-stuff site, THIS PAGE is worth reading.
When a person experiences negative emotional response in the present, it can almost always be traced back to an earlier event where a similar event occurred and emotion was experienced. In this earlier event there will be a belief that was established from which this now present negative emotion is rooted. A person’s present feelings are generally indicative of what he or she believes. Therefore it might be said that we feel what we believe.
I hate to ridicule something I don't know much about but on face value, paragraphs like the one above are just asking for a spanking. Where do these people come up with this stuff? Is it just the writing that doesn't represent sound, reasonable logic or does the writing actually represent what they 'believe'?
It sounds like a religion in and of itself! Scary. I also must say I have very little knowledge about this except what is written on that site and what I've read from other posters...but I think that's enough.
This is the same person who years ago while here with lightbearers removed his wedding ring. An odd thing I thought at the time it did not take long to figure out why. What is this about the third or fourth group he is on now.
In one case they actually went into the back bed room so that Wayne and John could listen in on the phone as the teaching went on! The end result is a bunch of letters going out to the local fellowships saying that such and such is not longer with CFF.
If this particular case of eavesdropping still holds true, why didn't they simply inquire of this person directly?
What's with this "sneaking-around" baloney? So the person teaches weird stuff that doesn't agree with their weird stuff. They should have just went out for a cup of coffee together someplace, and respectly discuss their weird stuff together. You know, act like Christians.
Manipulative, kry. It smells like - well, money. Not that money's their main motivation, but of course there's registration information on the site where you can find out how to pay for upcoming events. So, I have to give them that - they're thinking of our best interests by offering easy information on how to get all paid up. Thoughtful, that is.
It's hogwash, to my reading. I just read most of what's on the site and now I feel bad because I want that time back to do something more constructive like count the dust-bunnies under my computer. But now I do have a way to explain that bad feeling as it must have come from a similar past event, and I think I know just the bunny that caused it. So I do have that to take away I guess.
But Christian churches are suckers for stuff like this. I file them under "Humor - Tips and Tricks to a Better Walk with Jesus". I'm sorry if that insults anyone. I guess I'd have to reassess what Shroyer did, whatever it actually was. I don't know if I'd send in I-Spies, if that's what happened. I'd probably just ask that they put that money for this stuff to a better use, like giving it to me. At least then they'd know what it went for - guitar accessories and possibly some landscaping for my backyard. No juiced books here, full disclosure, always.
What's with this "sneaking-around" baloney? So the person teaches weird stuff that doesn't agree with their weird stuff. They should have just went out for a cup of coffee together someplace, and respectly discuss their weird stuff together. You know, act like Christians
Because they still practice more of TWI and its engrained patterns than they are willing to admit.
I am surprised any old timers like Shroyer stuck around. To me, it seems like to stick around that long and finally leave because of the "Craig getting busted" thing tells me that they were not too sharp at all, to then go and start a full fledged "ministry". So, no surprise that it's taken this turn...."
For the record--I have to say, in J0hn Shr0yer's defense, that he left well before Craig and his tallywhacker got caught!
There were multitudes of blatant signs long before Craigs Bust, that made the whole thing difficult to support, if at all. If people chose to stay through that mess, well that is their business, but to come out after being a part of and supportive of those mistakes via their time and money doesnt really qualify them for much of a ministry at least not one that I would attend or support. If they were just in lala land and had no clue what was going on, that doesnt give them much credibility either.
Given the doctrines and ways that were deeply engrained Its bound to fall into a lot of the same pits
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igotout
Oh, and one more thing, Heartman. CFF has not gone down the tubes at all. In fact from what I hear they have more "members" than ever before. And with Gigou's having moved there starting to run things it looks to be a success in the making. Interesting Sara will be on board. They have a lot of ability.
I look for TWI to make a modest comeback too after certain people die off (hurry, hurry
). They have more money than Jesus. They ain't goin nowhere either.
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sogwap51
I know of a couple that went there until about 18 months ago. The couple had no contact from them for 18 months or maybe a bit more. Suddenly, out of the blue, last week CFF showed up at their door when the couple wasn't home and talked to their kids telling the kids they were possessed and they had come to deliver them from devil spirits. They had the kids totally freaked out after a couple of hours. The parents came home and threw them out of the house. As they left the told the kids that their parents were being "total bitches". Then they called the kids on the kids' cell and tried to get the kids to meet them someplace. What a bunch of arsessss. Naturally the kids will still think of some of the things these folks said to them and ideas that were put in their heads. Hard enough to deal with kids growing up in this world without an outsider that isn't even welcome barging into your home and trying to stir the pot.
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1 john 3:1
I have to agree with you Pipes, I have never heard any of the bs that has been spread here and I have been involved with CFF & many other "loving" splinter groups. If the doctrine being talked about is way out in left field, then I would not want to fellowship with that group either and perhaps they were trying to get a grip on what was being taught. I don't think that's strange. For instance if someone started teaching something very far out about healing and it became "spiritual" in my mind according to what the WORD says, not VP or any other minister, I would not want to have anything to do with them either, so perhaps they were protecting the Body of Christ with what they know of the Word. So let's not run off with rumor here and start spreading garbage that we know nothing about. I would lean on the side of cutting some slack here.
I am sorry that some of your had bad experiences here and are glad to hear that things are going well now and you have healed. None of us are perfect and we all give advice at times that we believe God is working in us and who knows, maybe we all make the same mistakes.
It's so sad when there is division and no I have not rec'd a letter about anyone. There is one believer who is teaching some far out stuff on healing (which according to the Word should be simple) and yes I don't have to agree with what he is teaching, since it's not documented in the Word. And I would be the 1st person to explain to someone that I do not believe his doctrine is from the Word and then show them why.
It was explained very lovingly in a SNS tape that this person does not fellowship with CFF anymore and I don't find that "legalistic" in any way. Oh well............
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1 john 3:1
I agree with you Dove, John & Wayne do not tell anyone how to run their fellowships but make themselves available if the needs arise & yes the coordinators are responsible to see that the doctrine is on the Word to the best of their ability. They are both the best and do their best to bless God's people.
And from Heartman
"This has been very interesting and I am sorry I brought it up. I usually only read here and dont post. I only know what has happened here in the southeast. But all of the responces that I have seen have some truth in them. Dove you are correct and I wish we could all just get along and move the Word and help people be there best for God. However it appears that will not be the case. I guess at some point as the groups grow and begin to get more people they will have to come to the point of US and THEM. And so it goes, we have Methodist, catholics, splinter groups and ex wayfers.............I know all of the players in this sad drama and none want to hurt anyone and all believe they are helping everyone and talking and walking for God---so who is right and who is wrong? I guess at the gathering we will find out."
Heartman, perhaps what happens in the south east should stay in the south east. This is exactly how rumors get started and after all it's you opinion of a situation that apparantely you were not even directly involved with, you just "heard" from what you said.
I don't what you intended to do here but personally I would put more creditibility to what I see and hear myself than any rumor being spread by someone with a ficticious name that we all use here.
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1 john 3:1
Sogwop this is bs! I do not believe you. Sorry but this one is way far out and on your authority? CFF showed up at their door? CFF WHO! Come on and stop the crap...........gimme a break. John & Wayne would not sanction that nor condone it either.
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Dot Matrix
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Dot Matrix
I am not in CFF nor am I in any splinter group.
But I have thought about this prior to this thread.
If I started a fellowship and it was hot for God and it began to grow....
How would I deal with growth?
Suppose someone I trusted wanted to have another fellowship associated with mine. How would I know if they went off the deep end and were using the association with me to move their teachings?
Really.
Put the shoes on for a moment.
You have a hot fellowship
People adore coming and are having great God things happen
Then, picture a guy in your association wants to split the group in expansion and it is a good idea as the group is large.
Next, you hear that someone maybe preaching weird stuff. Whatever, let's say he begins to advocate multiple brides. How else do you check it out? You go listen and see what is happening.
If the fellowship is hot you tell the nay Sayers to go pound sand, if its not you have to deal with that.... I don't see anyway around it.
Now, the problem then comes in when I get full of myself and have the POWER to decide what is taught---
How do I stay pure?
I might have a small group of researching believers (not yes men) to confer with.
If CFF was checking on people associated with them to see what they taught -- well, I don't see anyway around it. If they are becoming nuts about it then the group, the watchdogs need to step forward and say something.
We all need help walking this walk. If what SOGWAP heard, I do not doubt she was told that, was true then there maybe some problems.
If what she was told was a half-truth or an exaggerated version then that needs to be considered.
Here is the question:
How would you grow a church? And make sure that your associated fellowships were not teaching adultery? OR perverted financial things? Or hurting kids? You would have to go find out wouldn't you?
I don't know if CFF is "off" or "on". I just do not see anyway to check on things being taught other than check on things being taught. NOT a written submission, which cuts out spontaneity or the HS working in your heart, but to PREVENT the horrible secret teachings done by the TWI elitist or the David Coreshes?
It must be hard trying to do all of this. One can only pray they are pure at heart and humble before God and if one sees they are not then confront them, if you think they are off the deep end then leave. Any good “company” group” “church” needs to have feed back. But any good “Leader” needs to have checks and balances.
IMHO
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dancing
thanks for the links igotout
too bad that kind of teaching is not geared toward a more positive approach
they might even get the positives out of ones present and not past
and what they call the lord or god or the holy spirit is questionable
sounds like just mental work to me
when the Lord Jesus Christ does it you will know
the ever present now
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oilfieldmedic
My turn...
I have taken a long hard look at the "spin-offs" as they are called...one thing continues to resound in me, and that is that as long as man has anything to do with anything...you can bet your $80 or whatever it costs, there will probably be something just not exactly perfect.
For example religion, politics, spin-offs...heck, look what man has done to God's Word..."The version for to day folks is"_______you fill in the blank.
I had been criticized, encouraged, reproofed up to my neck over the years for one reason or another..."Why don't you sell out", "Why don't you commit"? Must be my conservative-Lancaster County upbringing, I don't know...but I have always trusted with caution and just cause I want something to be so, doesn't make it so...doesn't change who and what I am either. Thank God for that. That's what I hold on to.
I have been able to sit in different fellowships from time to time, different church services and get something out of it...sometimes not...and sure we got to weed through it all, but until the BS surfaces, I just sit back, then I make a decision. This skinny little butt is tired of getting burned too.
That guy did this and this guy did that...All I know for sure is, that God is the ultimate Healer of hearts and lives...we all know that.
I am so thankful to know what I know, to continue to learn deeper truths of the Word...not someones version or ideas about it. I want to learn to love as He loved, forgive as He forgave and let that peace of God rule in me.
Unfortunately, tons of hurt and damage has occured in ministrys & peoples lives. Families have been torn apart as a result. Dang...I want to spit in the devils eye
I thank God for all of you too...I've said it in the past in other posts'; that so many of you have been so instrumental in my healing process and I am so thankful.
excie said it best...I'm just looking for the next church
Ok...got to go....back to the war!
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SafariVista
I've never heard or seen anything but good from CFFM directly. We enjoy their CD's, and have attended one large get-together. Everyone was more than wonderful, and God was the main topic!
I agree w/ Oilfieldmedic... except I'd like to dig the devils eyes out
To John R., thank you for the clarification.
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I Love Bagpipes
I guess I'll chime in too. Mr. Pipes, Dooj, OFM, and Excath state my sentiments/perception pretty well. Igotout, yes..thank you for the clarification.
I don't "agree" with all the CFF doctrine... I'm unlearning/relearning so much now. I do know that God put CFF right in front of me when I was looking for a place to turn when I was exiting TWI. I do know that W*yn* has ministered personally deeply to my soul and helped me tremendously. CFF has asked nothing for itself in return.
Like some have said, we are to be "cautious" all the while trusting God/Christ to lead us where it is we need to be at a particular time in order to let Him do His work within us. For me that has been CFF, CES, GSC, and a hosts of other individuals and a few other groups. LIke OFM (and I think most of us), I am thankful for all the people He has put in my path.
IMO, this thread is a healthy discussion and example of not allowing elephants to hide in rooms. Like Tiny Tim said, "God bless us, each and every one." (Wasn't it Tiny Tim who said that?)
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jaylawt
"Well, I guess it's no surprise for me either. As I understand it, there are a whole lot of people with CFF that stayed all the way until Craig got caught with his tallywhacker where it shouldn't have been. And if that was the "final straw" that caused the people to leave, then they weren't really paying very much attention in the first place, because there were many many things that were way off the Word besides all of the adultry, rape, and coercion that surrounded them. The very obsessive micro-management alone was so far from the old TWI days, that I am surprised any old timers like Shroyer stuck around. To me, it seems like to stick around that long and finally leave because of the "Craig getting busted" thing tells me that they were not too sharp at all, to then go and start a full fledged "ministry". So, no surprise that it's taken this turn..."
For the record--I have to say, in J0hn Shr0yer's defense, that he left well before Craig and his tallywhacker got caught!
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Belle
Don't feel bad, Heartman, this is how things get aired out. :) It can get ugly sometimes, but when things can be discussed on here maturely, there's usually something we can all get out of it. Apparently someone only told you part of the story. My belief is that there are three sides to every story - his, hers and what really happened. ^_^ I was married to a police officer for seven years - so sue me.
1 John 3:1,
I'm curious as to why there has to be an announcement about people who don't fellowship with a group anymore. What was said about this person? Is this standard protocol for CFF when someone leaves the fold?
I didn't read where SOGWOP mentioned any names in particular and she has already been dragged across the coals for telling her TWI experience on here and I think it's extremely unfair, unkind, unchristian and totally uncalled-for to call someone a liar when one doesn't have all the facts. Ask questions before making accusations or A-S-S U mptions.
It generally saves embarrassment down the road.
CFF and other offshoots are usually as heated discussions as those about TWI can get. I think it's because some of us continue to follow men more than we'd like to think we do. When someone says something bad about a person we admire, respect and elevate above others to some degree, we get defensive rather than looking further into what's being said or implied. We forget that vee pee and the other vultures with TWI were very kind and helpful to some while being very destructive and vicious with others.
Also, there are some terrible things that happen(ed) without leadership knowledge and, should they learn of said situations, one would hope that they would act swiftly and lovingly to repair any damage to the individuals involved as well as taking care of the perpetrators.
Offshoots and anything that remotely resembles TWI is extremely distasteful to me personally, but I can see where it's a good transition to independence, growth and healing for some and still, for others, their choice for permanent spiritual fulfillment and fellowship. To each his own and none of us is wrong.
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WhiteDove
Belle In my experience I have not known this to be the norm for CFF in this case they may have agreed to be a CFF referral fellowship. CFF has for some time supplied independent fellowships with teaching material and classes and so forth. At some point they wanted to have fellowships around the country that they could send people to that had left the Way they felt were a good place to send them. If you signed on for such then of coarse they expected that you were in agreement with their general teachings. The individual involved was involved with their clergy meetings and had taught at their teaching center in Ohio. He is someone who is well known from his Way days. I would guess that because of his ability to impact many, thinking he was teaching their beliefs they felt it was necessary to inform people that he was not.
Much like the Geer discussion I suppose they did not want to be held accountable for someone involved with their group who may operate on his own and cause some damage to someone that others would feel somehow would then be their responsibility. They just wanted to let others know that this person was not speaking for them or their doctrine.
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Gillian Rules
Great discussion.
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Dot Matrix
Gillian
I like your Atar
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RumRunner
CFF? John L? From hell's heart I stab at thee; for hate's sake I spit at thee... from Herman Melville... a thief and liar no different from BOT. I watched him destroy lives with a wave of his hand and never looked back. If he burns I will buy the beer.
Fire away...
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doojable
Ok IF this is the same Rev Ken that has a last name that begins with an "S" and IF this man was in Texas for a Long@$$ time - then he is the scum of the earth. This is his way - he gets in with a sucessful group, learns what works for them and mimics them , becomes involved and trusted. THEN he starts to move on his own. He pulls followers away from the original ministry and tries to start his own. AND while he does this - he boinks as many of the women as he possibly can - all this while trying to keep up the pretense of being a minister collecting abs.
How do I know this? Try watching the destruction unfold before my eyes. In the process he told the local believers that I had walked away from God. Oh - and no, he didn't boink me - but he sure as heck tried.
D A M M I T
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socks
Hmmm, in reading through the Theo-stuff site, THIS PAGE is worth reading.
I hate to ridicule something I don't know much about but on face value, paragraphs like the one above are just asking for a spanking. Where do these people come up with this stuff? Is it just the writing that doesn't represent sound, reasonable logic or does the writing actually represent what they 'believe'?
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krys
It sounds like a religion in and of itself! Scary. I also must say I have very little knowledge about this except what is written on that site and what I've read from other posters...but I think that's enough.
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WhiteDove
Bingo !!!!! Dooji ......give the lady her prize
This is the same person who years ago while here with lightbearers removed his wedding ring. An odd thing I thought at the time it did not take long to figure out why. What is this about the third or fourth group he is on now.
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TheInvisibleDan
If this particular case of eavesdropping still holds true, why didn't they simply inquire of this person directly?
What's with this "sneaking-around" baloney? So the person teaches weird stuff that doesn't agree with their weird stuff. They should have just went out for a cup of coffee together someplace, and respectly discuss their weird stuff together. You know, act like Christians.
Danny
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socks
Manipulative, kry. It smells like - well, money. Not that money's their main motivation, but of course there's registration information on the site where you can find out how to pay for upcoming events. So, I have to give them that - they're thinking of our best interests by offering easy information on how to get all paid up. Thoughtful, that is.
It's hogwash, to my reading. I just read most of what's on the site and now I feel bad because I want that time back to do something more constructive like count the dust-bunnies under my computer. But now I do have a way to explain that bad feeling as it must have come from a similar past event, and I think I know just the bunny that caused it. So I do have that to take away I guess.
But Christian churches are suckers for stuff like this. I file them under "Humor - Tips and Tricks to a Better Walk with Jesus". I'm sorry if that insults anyone. I guess I'd have to reassess what Shroyer did, whatever it actually was. I don't know if I'd send in I-Spies, if that's what happened. I'd probably just ask that they put that money for this stuff to a better use, like giving it to me. At least then they'd know what it went for - guitar accessories and possibly some landscaping for my backyard. No juiced books here, full disclosure, always.
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mstar1
Because they still practice more of TWI and its engrained patterns than they are willing to admit.
There were multitudes of blatant signs long before Craigs Bust, that made the whole thing difficult to support, if at all. If people chose to stay through that mess, well that is their business, but to come out after being a part of and supportive of those mistakes via their time and money doesnt really qualify them for much of a ministry at least not one that I would attend or support. If they were just in lala land and had no clue what was going on, that doesnt give them much credibility either.
Given the doctrines and ways that were deeply engrained Its bound to fall into a lot of the same pits
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