A big event was coming up, can't remember what. Sp.ptnr had lovingly sent me a beautiful bouquet of flowers; he knew we would be busy and wanted to bless me. As usual I was on beverage crew and knew I would hardly see my bed during this event (long hours). So I brought the flowers down and arranged them in the main lobby where I knew I would be serving most and everyone could enjoy them, not just me. I got told to remove them. Asked why - it was because "there weren't any on the table in the dining room lobby and the people getting drinks there might wonder why" (I have an idea he said they might get jealous, but I can't really imagine he did say that - maybe it was the overall impression). I split the flowers into two bunches and put some on each table. It still wasn't good enough. The flowers went back to my overheated room and I peered at them through the matchsticks holding my eyelids apart as often as I could.
Often wondered: would anyone really get upset if one beverage table had a few flowers on it and another some distance away didn't?
Isn't it funny that this incident came up?.... I mean afterall, in PFAL there was such a point made about the "religious" worrying about where the flowers were placed on the altar...
What's sad is that no one could see this. Now I have this major red flag that shoots straight up if I'm told that something is somehow "off." I look at it myself and if I'm ok with it then I stand my ground.
(I have an idea he said they might get jealous, but I can't really imagine he did say that - maybe it was the overall impression
Most of then time the explanations made only minimal sense, if at all. Would people really wonder why there were flowers at one table and not another? Heck, most wayfers would assume that it was planned that way.
How about the "no gifts to Way Corps" policy? The rationale behind that bit of legalism was that us peons were "bribing" the Way Corps for...I don't know what.
What I remember most is faxing my weekly schedule to my TC/HFC from work since it had to be in by some deadline. It was a form with the seven days of the week in columns and "Morning", "Afternoon" and "Evening" in rows, making 21 squares.
And I had to fax ANOTHER one for the previous week showing what I did with my time so they could compare that with what I had planned the previous week. It was all because we were "planning the devil out of our lives."
I would hope to god that no one at work would see what I was faxing. It was so retarded and I KNEW IT! And yet I stayed in until I was M&A'd in May, 1999.
Way to go. I didn't wake up until 2003 but I would just play the game and just fax the same schedule with a change in the date. Nothing like consistency eh.
I hear you, and I can only say 90% of the reasons I left was due to legalism
My personal grievances within the way
*2x2 was big in the 90s. I remember a former member had to write down where,who,when,what and why he was attending an event,that event the local pub down the street!! He had to file written permission just to go to the pub without another 'believer'
*Reproof and correction during the 90's I saw alot of adults getting reproved ,face reamed , character assassination all for the sake of small things!Anyone would think it was a madhouse at times...No compassion just straight b.s in the name of twit
*ABS was a must! I lost the principles and heart behind it all.It was like I had to give money to the local mafia err I meant fellowship just to save face
*If you were sick for more than a week, the coordinator would start questioning your spirituality,your walk etc..where's the compassion,empathy?love was not found in some fellowships.Certainly the directives on how to treat people were coming from some where? !
*Witnesing became a dread in my last years.When you live in NZ you can only witness certain areas as Auckland is not that big.Big drive witness door to door or mall, need numbers for class, once again heart lost for it the message was not win people as much but more for upandcoming classes.Motive- numbers numbers!!!
*S.I.T and Prophecy often believers within fellowships were often judged by how well their manifestation were.As it based how much the word they read,S.i.t etc...Certainly no comfort or exhortation at most times as it displayed who was 'who' so to speak
*Way Materials- Was seen as must buy! buy! being in NZ often meant expected delays from getting magazines, tapes from US.It was also recorded who was buying what etc...I mean i enjoyed the singing ladies of the way, sing it dave and Kerrusso CDs.
So much more and as said above by others I can only relate and add
Today i am glad I don't have to go through the motions and legalism b.s that runs through this cult
I sometimes wonder why I stayed with the Way after it got so legalistic in the 1990’s. So in light of this I thought it might be interesting if we could share legalism stories. Here is one that makes me sad just to remember it:
In 1995 fellowship started to become a real drag. There were twig meetings held three times a week plus a mandatory witnessing night. If you did not show up for one activity you were called on the carpet and your commitment to God was questioned. However, I remembered past deliverance in my life so I faithfully attended twig. In our fellowship was a tender-hearted woman named Ellen who was an excellent cook. She could make the most flavorful and wholesome meals from virtually nothing. In ministry parlance she had a “longsuit” in the domestic arts.
A local high school was offering an eight week evening class in cake decorating that she wanted to attend. She discovered that it was held on a night without a twig or witnessing commitment so she asked the coordinator if she could take the class. He asked her why she wanted this class. She said she loved cooking and it would be her pleasure to make birthday, anniversary and class cakes for the Believers. The coordinator was not sure if he could grant this request so he asked up the way tree. It seems that this was such a big decision that the limb coordinator had to make the final judgment.
So after all of this discussion she was allowed to take the class. However there was trouble right around the corner. It seems that the teacher of the class had a friend who had baked the first president Bush’s inauguration cake and she was coming to town to teach a master class of how she did it. This was literally a unique event; she was going to discuss how to bake a cake for thousands of guests in borrowed facilities with the Secret Service looking over your shoulder. There were also special considerations of the cake itself. The first Bush had made his “thousand points of light” speech and this cake was to have one thousand electric lights in it. She had to invent a special icing that would not melt from the heat given off by the lights and the cake had an ingenious wiring system so that it could be served easily. This gifted baker was going to give a master class for one night only and the teacher of the high school class had managed to get an invitation for all her beginning students to attend. This event was so highly anticipated that pastry chefs were vying for a seat in this class. The only problem is that this event fell on twig witnessing night.
As soon as Ellen found out about the schedule conflict she asked for permission to attend this class. She promised that she would witness to everyone that she met and that this would be a great opportunity for outreach. However leadership was wary, as they demanded that she bring another Believer so she could go two-by-two. However the class was full and it was audacious to ask for exception especially since she was a beginning student in a master class. She was persuasive and was reluctantly given permission by leadership to attend.
However this came to bite her in the foot. A few months later when about one third of our twig area was Marked and Avoided she was in that group. I never learned the reason that she was M & A, but I have a sneaky suspicion that this was why she got the boot.
E. W. Bullinger
P. S. What irked me about this situation is that was based on crazy Loy boy’s ideas of commitment. I remember how in the old days it was expected that if you had an outside interest God would bless it. I am thinking about Pro 18:16 where a man’s gift makes room for him. I am convinced that this was an example of God blessing her life and the legalistic ministry stepped on her heart.
EW, she had to ask permission to take a class??!! Holy sheet, I am so glad I got out in 1988! I would have taken the class, and told TWI, to go f-themselves!!
What I remember most is faxing my weekly schedule to my TC/HFC from work since it had to be in by some deadline. It was a form with the seven days of the week in columns and "Morning", "Afternoon" and "Evening" in rows, making 21 squares.
And I had to fax ANOTHER one for the previous week showing what I did with my time so they could compare that with what I had planned the previous week. It was all because we were "planning the devil out of our lives."
I would hope to god that no one at work would see what I was faxing. It was so retarded and I KNEW IT! And yet I stayed in until I was M&A'd in May, 1999.
Now I enjoy doing whatever I want!
Holy sheet, even the Navy didn't make us do something that stupid!! Whew, it was a good thing I was out by 1988, otherwise I think I would have told any number of people to go f-themselves! My personal time is personal, and that is that.
I have alot of legalistic stories. I was actually told I had to have leadership approval for dinner quests.
My 17 year old was woirking and they sent someone to his work to say we were evil because we left.
We were questioned for missing a fellowhip. We were given a book by the leaders wife on how to get up to tithing 90%!! We wanted to put in a pool and the leader said we should not do that unless we tithe.
There were many more but just to let you know I stood up to them. my soon to be ex did not. I never cared for legalism and I never let someone try to dictate my life.
Good for you PL!! I would have left if people had tried to run my life; f-them!!
"The sad thing is that I heard of a time when a certain "leader" in CA said that he couldn't pray for a man's son unless he got permission from Loy Boy - Geez!"
That would have been me. At a picnic in Oakland in late '93 or early '94, Paul G*les was doing a deication for some babies. I went to him and requested Andrew be dedicated. He refused rather abruptly, telling me he needed LCM's direct permission for that. Evidently, Andrew needed to be "checked out" first.
What ....ed me off even more was when I moved from CA back to Arkansas...a very sensible decision by ANYONES standards, I got word that I was on probation for moving out of state without the direct permission and approval from on high (Harvey Pl*tig, the CA Limb Boss and whoever else...probably LCM). But then I'd already gotten on HP's bad side by that time. There was some sort of "class" I was required to attend and I went to the first session. All it was was LCM sitting on a square bale of hay all dressed up like a cowboy and cussing and carrying on about something...don't know what...I kept dozing off. I missed the next session...the next day, cuz I didn't feel motivated to drive 90 miles to listen to some stupid LCM rant for 6 hours or however long it was only to be refreshed with cookies and coffee. If I'm gonna listen to some good cussin' I'll just stay home and do it myself....that way I get to sleep in and save gas. That's basically what I told HP when he called me up to fuss about me missing that "class". He told me "We don't take missing a class like that lightly"...but saw fit to forgive me and drop it when I couldn't stop laughing at him.
I was thankful.HP
I was, after all, hiring assorted twiggies from the area and paying them pretty good money at the time. That must have counted for something, I spose.
I'm glad those days are over...and have been for over a decade, now.
Whew.
HP probably was mad at you because you couldn't stop laughing at him! I've been out since 1988, and am glad to be out. The stories I read on the GSC make me glad I got out decades ago.
Coolchef---------"There were good times if you allowed them to roll".
I'll second that,brother and plenty of them. Unfortunately for some those good times were at the local level and started to vanish as we "moved up the ladder " of responsability. For me it all changed when I moved on to Fellowlaborers. Suddenly I was in a situation where there were 3 meetings per day,breakfast as a house,dinner as a "branch", required witnessing at our "9-5's",work assignments out the wazoo,not to mention a zero tolerance policy on any kind of drugs,sex, or alcohol. Add to that no dating non FL,no socializing with non FL,no unauthorized trips outside the enclave ,roustings in the middle of the night for reproof sessions or house inspections and virtually no time for any academic consideration or teaching of the Word at all.(And this was 30+ years ago!)
And the 2 at all times thing.----YIKES!-----I remember one time my limb leader had me quit my job and move 50+ miles away (just me,myself and I) to set up shop and run classes because there were no believers in that area who had taken the AC. I guess somehow the AC made me more qualified to make sure the chairs were straight and the coffee was ready by breaktime. I just hope any of the locals can forgive me for the time I spent there.
The point I'm driving at is that legalism has been a basic tenet of TWI for a very long time.
But Yeah!----There were lots and lots of genuinely good times to be had at the grassroots level and allow them to roll we often did.
I had some great times in TWI back in the day. The late 70's were a great time to be in TWI; but it started to change in the early 1980's. A lot of legalism, and other sheet had started to creep in.
My most recent legalism stories -- which I think I've told before but not in this context:
I had to take LCM's "new" Advanced Class at Rome City in 1995 or I'd no longer be considered an Advanced Class Grad. That in itself is fodder for this topic... but wait!
While I was there, I started to reminisce about some of the things I experienced there - good times only, of course, I knew the walls had ears. I told some story about one of Craig's visits - it was funny - not malicious or critical of him at all. I thought I was safe.
Well - some Corps Nazi woman who reminded me of Janet My***le confronted me after a meal about my stories. She told me that I wa being disrespectful because I called REV-ER-END-MAR-TIN-DALE by his first name!!! OMG - I was just speechless, which those who know me know that to be almost impossible! I said something like "when I was in residence, we ALL called him Craig". She replied with some crap about old wineskins and told me to be more aware of those who might be offended by that kind of talk!
Later that week:
Coming into and going out of every meeting and meal was either a audio or video tape of "The Singing Ladies of The Way". Even if I liked them - enough was enough! I made a comment that it would be nice to hear something else... that there must be enough talent in "the ministry" for someone to rise up and write and perform.
Once again - a different Corps Nazi approached me and told me that the person I was talking to was in her Advanced Class fellowship, and she was very upset that I had criticized a group of people who were so committed to the prevailing word... or some kind of crap like that. I told her that this person took it the wrong way -- I never said I didn't like them (which I didn't), I had only said I wish there was more diversity in Way Productions. I was quoted a verse in Romans that says something about thy brother being grieved by thy meat. Oy.
Last but not least...
I asked Paul M**q***a - who was in charge of Rome City at the time, why there was no singing at meal times-- not even "Roll Away!" I shared that those times were some of my fondest memories of the Advanced Classes and Summer Schools I had attended at HQ's years before. Well, no need to tell you that THAT was a huge mistake. I got an in-your-face lecture about dwelling in the past, more old-wineskin crap and that I'd be better off keeping stories of my past TWI experiences to myself. Oy.
Tell you what - if I had driven there, I would have gotten in my car gone right back to Tampa that day. Out of all the years I spent in TWI - I would have to say that those 10 days in Rome City were the very worst and the most legalistic times I ever had.
Hope, I took the AC in RC in July of 1985, and damn near froze to death. I guess the air conditioning was some how messed-up. I kid you not, I had to wear my blanket in class, I was that cold. I couldn't leave RC fast enough!!!
My worst legalism story was when the bc`s wife that moved into our wayhome, insisted that I get up and have the carpet vaccumed before 8 am every motning as my household responsibility. I worked 3rd shift untill 5 am every morning.
I would vaccume at night before I left and the bc and his family would trash it by eating popcorn and such each evening.
The next morning she would come into my room after I had only slept an hour or two.....in a rage...screaming at me for being a sluggard and grab my leg and haul me off of the bed to where I would slam into the floor..... I would have to listen to her lecture me about responsibilities and stewardship untill the whole house was revaccumed.
The same senario played out day after day. I was 18 at the time, I`d damned well like to see her try the same thing today.
If she had done that to me, I would have left that day. She sounded like a B!!
I really can't think of any legalism stories like the ones that I've read...This micromanaging a person's life boggles my mind. I can't believe that they were reduced to such controlling weinies.
I left in 1987 when Martindale required that twig leaders start reporting (on a weekly basis), who was faithful in their fellowship and who wasn't....I flat out refused...that was the end of it.
No offense intended...but to allow this guy to micromanage your lives the way he did!!!...Why didn't you just quit? I never would have put up with that crap. Get permission to attend a cake baking class?...What, you're kidding me right? My attitude was always...twi will get what I give them...nothing more. When they pushed me, I pushed back...
In the early 70's, twi believers were smoking dope at twig, getting drunk in bars and doing what they damn well pleased...nobody ever had to account for themselves...it was none of their damned business...and they knew it! It wasn't until an evolution of mind conditioning and group think mentality that saturated twi..did the legalism begin to take root...they convinced people that they were responsible to THEM (twi leaders) for their actions...they began to live in the eyes of other people and they lost their way...so very sad.
Wow, I didn't know about smoking dope, or getting drunk. I got involved in 1978. Back then Twig was fun, and funky!
In the early 80's I had been running a twig in a small midwestern town for a few years when we were sent WOWs...long and short of it, I was not allowed to have any influence with "LCs WOWs". One of the WOWs had history of heart problems. She became very ill and needed to be taken to the hospital. I called the LC and told him I was taking her to the hospital, he proceeded to tell me I was interfering with his WOWs and he would make the decision to let her go to the hospital. He was 50 miles away and had not even come to visit her...anyway, I said F this jerk I'm taking her to the hospital. The Dr. said she needed immediate IV dose of antibiotics and fluids to prevent her condition from worsening. None of this mattered to the LC, he was more worried about the Dr. calling him a cult leader than the girl's condition. He immediately came over to my house after visiting the hospital and reemed me for taking her to the hospital. Being a product of the rebellous 70's (one reason I got involved in the first place), I told him to F off. Even, better the girl wanted to leave the field and go back to NY after getting out of the hospital. I bought her a 1 way plane ticket. She was very sick and wanted to go home to her family, who wanted to take care of her. To this day I believe I did the right thing for her.
I have always had dogs and cats...was looked down on because of it. It was just one of the many reasons I never went WOW or Corp...I made commitments to my pets, that I would love and take care of them all their lives. The so called MOG can have expensive trained hunting dogs, but I can't have a lab or cocker spaniel? All of my dogs and cats have a special place in my memories and my life is richer because of it. Hypocrits! To this day, I gravitate to people who love animals.
Krysilis,
In the late 70's and early 80's I did. But, I could see where things were headed...a day when I wouldn't, so I got out while the getting was good in 1984.
Shoot, I wish I had gotten out in 1984!! I got out in 1988.
What I don't get about "scheduling the Devil out of our lives" is - if you're writing down everything you plan to do and when you will do it, isn't that letting the Devil know? And then he can mess with you and your plans?!?
For those who can't understand why some of us put up with the legalism, one reason was that it usually crept up on you. Kind of like the urban legend about the frog in the boiling water, crap would slowly and incrementally get worse until you were putting up with .... that you never would have if it just popped out of the blue.
You are so right. When I left the Way, I went to a psychologist to talk it over, as a lot of these things were majorly troubling and I was really emotional and it was hard to sort them out. One of the things the psychologist pointed out to me was that exact concept, that these compromises on our ethics and morals were presented over a long period of time, and each time only introduced incremental changes. Just give up a little more of your freedom in Christ to be under this control. It's not much, just comply. Don't be a problem. It's just one more little rule.
Legalists boil you like a frog. A little at a time.
What I don't get about "scheduling the Devil out of our lives" is - if you're writing down everything you plan to do and when you will do it, isn't that letting the Devil know? And then he can mess with you and your plans?!?
By writing it down you make a commitment. God can bless that. Yes the Adversary knows, but God has blessed your plan because you are on The Word. Now, if something comes up and you alter your plan, God has to allow The Adversary access. That is the risk you take by your lack of believing.
By writing it down you make a commitment. God can bless that. Yes the Adversary knows, but God has blessed your plan because you are on The Word. Now, if something comes up and you alter your plan, God has to allow The Adversary access. That is the risk you take by your lack of believing.
By writing it down you make a commitment. God can bless that. Yes the Adversary knows, but God has blessed your plan because you are on The Word. Now, if something comes up and you alter your plan, God has to allow The Adversary access. That is the risk you take by your lack of believing.
That's crazy talk. TWI has entered the Land of Prevailing Loonies.
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Bolshevik
Yes JD it was sarcasm. Just another way leadership controlled via confusion and not taking responsibility like, you know, a real leader would.
E. W. Bullinger
Dear Greasespot: I sometimes wonder why I stayed with the Way after it got so legalistic in the 1990’s. So in light of this I thought it might be interesting if we could share legalism stories. Her
Calflor
In the early 80's I had been running a twig in a small midwestern town for a few years when we were sent WOWs...long and short of it, I was not allowed to have any influence with "LCs WOWs". One of t
doojable
Isn't it funny that this incident came up?.... I mean afterall, in PFAL there was such a point made about the "religious" worrying about where the flowers were placed on the altar...
What's sad is that no one could see this. Now I have this major red flag that shoots straight up if I'm told that something is somehow "off." I look at it myself and if I'm ok with it then I stand my ground.
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Oakspear
How about the "no gifts to Way Corps" policy? The rationale behind that bit of legalism was that us peons were "bribing" the Way Corps for...I don't know what.
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outintexas
What I remember most is faxing my weekly schedule to my TC/HFC from work since it had to be in by some deadline. It was a form with the seven days of the week in columns and "Morning", "Afternoon" and "Evening" in rows, making 21 squares.
And I had to fax ANOTHER one for the previous week showing what I did with my time so they could compare that with what I had planned the previous week. It was all because we were "planning the devil out of our lives."
I would hope to god that no one at work would see what I was faxing. It was so retarded and I KNEW IT! And yet I stayed in until I was M&A'd in May, 1999.
Now I enjoy doing whatever I want!
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polar bear
Way to go. I didn't wake up until 2003 but I would just play the game and just fax the same schedule with a change in the date. Nothing like consistency eh.
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SafariVista
Just peeking in here.... outrageous accounts!
Mine have been suppressed... too painful
It's clear this b^ll$h*t happened most everywhere... similar abuse... different names~
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higherground30
E.W Bullinger
I hear you, and I can only say 90% of the reasons I left was due to legalism
My personal grievances within the way
*2x2 was big in the 90s. I remember a former member had to write down where,who,when,what and why he was attending an event,that event the local pub down the street!! He had to file written permission just to go to the pub without another 'believer'
*Reproof and correction during the 90's I saw alot of adults getting reproved ,face reamed , character assassination all for the sake of small things!Anyone would think it was a madhouse at times...No compassion just straight b.s in the name of twit
*ABS was a must! I lost the principles and heart behind it all.It was like I had to give money to the local mafia err I meant fellowship just to save face
*If you were sick for more than a week, the coordinator would start questioning your spirituality,your walk etc..where's the compassion,empathy?love was not found in some fellowships.Certainly the directives on how to treat people were coming from some where? !
*Witnesing became a dread in my last years.When you live in NZ you can only witness certain areas as Auckland is not that big.Big drive witness door to door or mall, need numbers for class, once again heart lost for it the message was not win people as much but more for upandcoming classes.Motive- numbers numbers!!!
*S.I.T and Prophecy often believers within fellowships were often judged by how well their manifestation were.As it based how much the word they read,S.i.t etc...Certainly no comfort or exhortation at most times as it displayed who was 'who' so to speak
*Way Materials- Was seen as must buy! buy! being in NZ often meant expected delays from getting magazines, tapes from US.It was also recorded who was buying what etc...I mean i enjoyed the singing ladies of the way, sing it dave and Kerrusso CDs.
So much more and as said above by others I can only relate and add
Today i am glad I don't have to go through the motions and legalism b.s that runs through this cult
Edited by higherground30Adding and re word
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Grace Valerie Claire
EW, she had to ask permission to take a class??!! Holy sheet, I am so glad I got out in 1988! I would have taken the class, and told TWI, to go f-themselves!!
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Grace Valerie Claire
Holy sheet, even the Navy didn't make us do something that stupid!! Whew, it was a good thing I was out by 1988, otherwise I think I would have told any number of people to go f-themselves! My personal time is personal, and that is that.
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Grace Valerie Claire
Good for you PL!! I would have left if people had tried to run my life; f-them!!
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Grace Valerie Claire
CC, lucky you! I went WOW once, and had a terrible year. If I had been smart, I would have left after that year. The mistakes we make in our youth!
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Grace Valerie Claire
HP probably was mad at you because you couldn't stop laughing at him! I've been out since 1988, and am glad to be out. The stories I read on the GSC make me glad I got out decades ago.
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Grace Valerie Claire
I had some great times in TWI back in the day. The late 70's were a great time to be in TWI; but it started to change in the early 1980's. A lot of legalism, and other sheet had started to creep in.
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Grace Valerie Claire
Hope, I took the AC in RC in July of 1985, and damn near froze to death. I guess the air conditioning was some how messed-up. I kid you not, I had to wear my blanket in class, I was that cold. I couldn't leave RC fast enough!!!
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Grace Valerie Claire
If she had done that to me, I would have left that day. She sounded like a B!!
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Grace Valerie Claire
Wow, I didn't know about smoking dope, or getting drunk. I got involved in 1978. Back then Twig was fun, and funky!
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Grace Valerie Claire
Hell yes!!
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Grace Valerie Claire
Shoot, I wish I had gotten out in 1984!! I got out in 1988.
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outandabout
What I don't get about "scheduling the Devil out of our lives" is - if you're writing down everything you plan to do and when you will do it, isn't that letting the Devil know? And then he can mess with you and your plans?!?
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TLC
It is (and he does) according to VPW, That's why he stopped writing his sermon down.
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chockfull
You are so right. When I left the Way, I went to a psychologist to talk it over, as a lot of these things were majorly troubling and I was really emotional and it was hard to sort them out. One of the things the psychologist pointed out to me was that exact concept, that these compromises on our ethics and morals were presented over a long period of time, and each time only introduced incremental changes. Just give up a little more of your freedom in Christ to be under this control. It's not much, just comply. Don't be a problem. It's just one more little rule.
Legalists boil you like a frog. A little at a time.
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Bolshevik
By writing it down you make a commitment. God can bless that. Yes the Adversary knows, but God has blessed your plan because you are on The Word. Now, if something comes up and you alter your plan, God has to allow The Adversary access. That is the risk you take by your lack of believing.
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chockfull
Now here is a bird that has truly scheduled the Devil out of her life.....
For at least as long as she can breathe ....
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OldSkool
Not to mention breaking your commitment.
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outandabout
That's crazy talk. TWI has entered the Land of Prevailing Loonies.
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