Bless your heart calflor..... in ALL probability you saved that poor girls life by taking her to the hospital.
Secondly, you saved her a lot of heartbreak and recriminations by allowing her to go home to her family.
Welcome to greasespot, I admire your heart and courage. During my koolaid drinking years, to my ever lasting shame, I am afraid that I wouldn`t have had the nerve to have disobeyed my leadership like that.
Good for you!
Attack Gypsy THAT was funny as he ll!
How I admire all of you who were couragious enough to stand up to leadership for what was right.
Every morning in Fellow Laborers we met in the coordinator's basement for prayer, manifestations, announcements and a fun run down Hills-Miller road about 5:30 AM as I recall.
One morning, our illustrious coordinator overslept. We sat and happily chatted, making a good deal of noise, for about 15 minutes, or until we awoke His Majesty, who then charged downstairs and threw a hissy fit because we were so noisy and woke him up.
A couple weeks later, His Majesty once again overslept. We sat in total silence until he came downstairs. This time he screamed at us for NOT waking him up.
This time, the limb coordinator screamed at us for being so unloving to not wake hiim!
Thanks Rascal! Actually, I am not sure it paid great dividends for me with the LC. The next year we were sent a Corp couple. After setting them up in a house and getting a job for the guy. We gave up the fellowship to them, then never went once to their twig. They viewed us as spiritual lightweights and really never bothered asking why we never came to fellowship. It didn't take long to run off all the other faithfull from our old fellowship. They left after 3 years with little success. They were mostly adept at putting their hands out...other than that they didn't have much use for us...nor we for them. I know the Word says..."The Love of God thinks no evil"...but there were some who just rub you the wrong way.
My most recent legalism stories -- which I think I've told before but not in this context:
I had to take LCM's "new" Advanced Class at Rome City in 1995 or I'd no longer be considered an Advanced Class Grad. That in itself is fodder for this topic... but wait!
While I was there, I started to reminisce about some of the things I experienced there - good times only, of course, I knew the walls had ears. I told some story about one of Craig's visits - it was funny - not malicious or critical of him at all. I thought I was safe.
Well - some Corps Nazi woman who reminded me of Janet My***le confronted me after a meal about my stories. She told me that I wa being disrespectful because I called REV-ER-END-MAR-TIN-DALE by his first name!!! OMG - I was just speechless, which those who know me know that to be almost impossible! I said something like "when I was in residence, we ALL called him Craig". She replied with some crap about old wineskins and told me to be more aware of those who might be offended by that kind of talk!
Later that week:
Coming into and going out of every meeting and meal was either a audio or video tape of "The Singing Ladies of The Way". Even if I liked them - enough was enough! I made a comment that it would be nice to hear something else... that there must be enough talent in "the ministry" for someone to rise up and write and perform.
Once again - a different Corps Nazi approached me and told me that the person I was talking to was in her Advanced Class fellowship, and she was very upset that I had criticized a group of people who were so committed to the prevailing word... or some kind of crap like that. I told her that this person took it the wrong way -- I never said I didn't like them (which I didn't), I had only said I wish there was more diversity in Way Productions. I was quoted a verse in Romans that says something about thy brother being grieved by thy meat. Oy.
Last but not least...
I asked Paul M**q***a - who was in charge of Rome City at the time, why there was no singing at meal times-- not even "Roll Away!" I shared that those times were some of my fondest memories of the Advanced Classes and Summer Schools I had attended at HQ's years before. Well, no need to tell you that THAT was a huge mistake. I got an in-your-face lecture about dwelling in the past, more old-wineskin crap and that I'd be better off keeping stories of my past TWI experiences to myself. Oy.
Tell you what - if I had driven there, I would have gotten in my car gone right back to Tampa that day. Out of all the years I spent in TWI - I would have to say that those 10 days in Rome City were the very worst and the most legalistic times I ever had.
After I read that - I remembered that LCM told us a story about feeling so guilty for throwing away a paper clip that he actually searched through his office garbage can to retrieve it!!! Something about being a good steward...
Can you say anal retentive???
Hi excie -- I'm actually sitting at your computer - John's been working on it and it's set up in my family room!!! How convenient! CSI and GSC at the same time!
My worst legalism story was when the bc`s wife that moved into our wayhome, insisted that I get up and have the carpet vaccumed before 8 am every motning as my household responsibility. I worked 3rd shift untill 5 am every morning.
I would vaccume at night before I left and the bc and his family would trash it by eating popcorn and such each evening.
The next morning she would come into my room after I had only slept an hour or two.....in a rage...screaming at me for being a sluggard and grab my leg and haul me off of the bed to where I would slam into the floor..... I would have to listen to her lecture me about responsibilities and stewardship untill the whole house was revaccumed.
The same senario played out day after day. I was 18 at the time, I`d damned well like to see her try the same thing today.
I really can't think of any legalism stories like the ones that I've read...This micromanaging a person's life boggles my mind. I can't believe that they were reduced to such controlling weinies.
I left in 1987 when Martindale required that twig leaders start reporting (on a weekly basis), who was faithful in their fellowship and who wasn't....I flat out refused...that was the end of it.
No offense intended...but to allow this guy to micromanage your lives the way he did!!!...Why didn't you just quit? I never would have put up with that crap. Get permission to attend a cake baking class?...What, you're kidding me right? My attitude was always...twi will get what I give them...nothing more. When they pushed me, I pushed back...
In the early 70's, twi believers were smoking dope at twig, getting drunk in bars and doing what they damn well pleased...nobody ever had to account for themselves...it was none of their damned business...and they knew it! It wasn't until an evolution of mind conditioning and group think mentality that saturated twi..did the legalism begin to take root...they convinced people that they were responsible to THEM (twi leaders) for their actions...they began to live in the eyes of other people and they lost their way...so very sad.
I really can't think of any legalism stories like the ones that I've read...This micromanaging a person's life boggles my mind. I can't believe that they were reduced to such controlling weinies.
I left in 1987 when Martindale required that twig leaders start reporting (on a weekly basis), who was faithful in their fellowship and who wasn't....I flat out refused...that was the end of it.
No offense intended...but to allow this guy to micromanage your lives the way he did!!!...Why didn't you just quit? I never would have put up with that crap. Get permission to attend a cake baking class?...What, you're kidding me right? My attitude was always...twi will get what I give them...nothing more. When they pushed me, I pushed back...
In the early 70's, twi believers were smoking dope at twig, getting drunk in bars and doing what they damn well pleased...nobody ever had to account for themselves...it was none of their damned business...and they knew it! It wasn't until an evolution of mind conditioning and group think mentality that saturated twi..did the legalism begin to take root...they convinced people that they were responsible to THEM (twi leaders) for their actions...they began to live in the eyes of other people and they lost their way...so very sad.
I agree Groucho!
it was when LCM wanted total allegiance as he put it (during the leadership tapes 1 & 2)....and with the promise things would get to the prevailing word! What a lie! It makes me think of a verse in 2 Peter 2:19.....
"While they promise them liberty, they themselves are the servants of corruption: for of whom a man is overcome, of the same is he brought in bondage."
Why did we follow this man and this corrupt ministry? We should have had brains to think with.......
In the early 70's, twi believers were smoking dope at twig, getting drunk in bars and doing what they damn well pleased...nobody ever had to account for themselves...it was none of their damned business...and they knew it! It wasn't until an evolution of mind conditioning and group think mentality that saturated twi..did the legalism begin to take root...they convinced people that they were responsible to THEM (twi leaders) for their actions...they began to live in the eyes of other people and they lost their way...so very sad.
That evolution of mind conditioning and groupthink mentality that saturated twi...........was wierwille's brain storm of control: aka the indoctrination of way corps leadership. After 10-12 years of corps programming and developing a hierarchy of yes-men......the tipping point was reached and micromanagement of the masses was achieved.
Well speaking for myself Groucho, At 17 I was pretty naieve. I believed these men when they said that they spoke for God. I believed later when they taught that if I didn`t obey leadership that God couldn`t protect me and Satan would be allowed to kill me....or worse I would get posessed.
I believed that in not obeying, that I was not serving God.
Stupid, yeah but very devious how everything was presented not as what they wanted from us but what God almighty required of a dulous.
the legalism was always there, but started to become bizarre for me around '78.
I was in Ct at the time, and a HUGE push began about obeying the 'man of God'.
The 4 steps down from the mystery became common teaching at twig coordinator meetings, emphasizing above all, the requirement to obey the man of God. Any 'suggestion' by a leader, even in casual conversation , pertaining to something that's none of his concern, was to be considered the same as God speaking to you.
The leader was always right in every situation. If you got roasted over the fire for something, anything, you had it coming to you. In fact we were to WELCOME the Godly reproof, in appreciation that God would have a loving minister reprove and correct you. How else are you going to grow unless you have someone in your face ?
If most people had a clue what was in store for them when they signed that green card, they would've headed for the hills. And this was back in the 'good days'.
The last three years were the hardest for us. We were grilled about everything! Our TC's wife even told me I wasn't sexy enough and gave me some really sleazy night things to wear, which my husband thought were ugly. Our son was to rebellious, and needed to be thrashed daily. Then they decided I didn't love our son enough, or maybe I didn't show him enough. I was required to do six things every day to show my son I loved him, then call her and tell her what they were.
Woke him up in time for school
Fixed his breakfast
Packed his lunch
Greeted with a hug and a kiss when he came home from school.
Presented the cookies I had baked for him that day.
Decorated Happy Household Holiday tree ornaments together.
Yada Yada Yada. Of course very little of this was good enough for her. Never mind I also worked part time.
A couple months after this little furor, the little Ba***ard branch leader said to me out of a clear blue sky, "Now see how much better things are when you and your husband are likeminded?"
I smiled sweetly and agreed, "Yes, they are certainly much better." I to this day have NO idea what someone told him to make him say that. We only had one problem with our marriage and that was that we were in TWI. Things did get much better when we left that bunch of morons behind.
From about 1993-94 onward, there was no love, no tenderness, no concern for the individual. There was only legalism.
the legalism was always there, but started to become bizarre for me around '78.
I was in Ct at the time, and a HUGE push began about obeying the 'man of God'.
The 4 steps down from the mystery became common teaching at twig coordinator meetings, emphasizing above all, the requirement to obey the man of God. Any 'suggestion' by a leader, even in casual conversation , pertaining to something that's none of his concern, was to be considered the same as God speaking to you.
The leader was always right in every situation. If you got roasted over the fire for something, anything, you had it coming to you. In fact we were to WELCOME the Godly reproof, in appreciation that God would have a loving minister reprove and correct you. How else are you going to grow unless you have someone in your face ?
If most people had a clue what was in store for them when they signed that green card, they would've headed for the hills. And this was back in the 'good days'.
Yeah.........around 1978/79 there WAS a huge push on "obey the man of God" doctrine. For me, RED FLAGS WERE FLYING......but, silly me, to think that I should notice corps coordinators promoting this seductive doctrine into the fabric of the corps program.
And, in 1978.......vpw and lcm had to get waist-deep into that situation where three 8th corps guys had done some research that really ruffled vpw's feathers. Anyways, after that...........the clamps really came down on doing independent research. On several occasions, martindale scoffed at the corps' ability to even do any research that would be noteworthy.
Yeah, hiway.......by 1978, legalism in twi had gained legs.
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Bolshevik
Yes JD it was sarcasm. Just another way leadership controlled via confusion and not taking responsibility like, you know, a real leader would.
E. W. Bullinger
Dear Greasespot: I sometimes wonder why I stayed with the Way after it got so legalistic in the 1990’s. So in light of this I thought it might be interesting if we could share legalism stories. Her
Calflor
In the early 80's I had been running a twig in a small midwestern town for a few years when we were sent WOWs...long and short of it, I was not allowed to have any influence with "LCs WOWs". One of t
socks
Dangerous paper clips....
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topoftheworld
Socks-ROFLMAO!!!
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templelady
To think I might still be in if not for the Rich Urquhart mess
I missed most of LCM
The fog was enough for me
I ache for what some of you folks went through
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frank123lol
And yet...Look what Marty stole from all of us...What a jack a@@
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potato
"He was apparently obsessed with office supplies."
my entire tenure with the way international suddenly makes sense.
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Linda Z
potato, hahahahahahahahahahahahahaha!
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SafariVista
Best laugh today... What a team!
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rascal
Bless your heart calflor..... in ALL probability you saved that poor girls life by taking her to the hospital.
Secondly, you saved her a lot of heartbreak and recriminations by allowing her to go home to her family.
Welcome to greasespot, I admire your heart and courage. During my koolaid drinking years, to my ever lasting shame, I am afraid that I wouldn`t have had the nerve to have disobeyed my leadership like that.
Good for you!
Attack Gypsy THAT was funny as he ll!
How I admire all of you who were couragious enough to stand up to leadership for what was right.
Edited by rascalLink to comment
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Watered Garden
Every morning in Fellow Laborers we met in the coordinator's basement for prayer, manifestations, announcements and a fun run down Hills-Miller road about 5:30 AM as I recall.
One morning, our illustrious coordinator overslept. We sat and happily chatted, making a good deal of noise, for about 15 minutes, or until we awoke His Majesty, who then charged downstairs and threw a hissy fit because we were so noisy and woke him up.
A couple weeks later, His Majesty once again overslept. We sat in total silence until he came downstairs. This time he screamed at us for NOT waking him up.
This time, the limb coordinator screamed at us for being so unloving to not wake hiim!
Damned if you do damned if you don't.
WG
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Calflor
Thanks Rascal! Actually, I am not sure it paid great dividends for me with the LC. The next year we were sent a Corp couple. After setting them up in a house and getting a job for the guy. We gave up the fellowship to them, then never went once to their twig. They viewed us as spiritual lightweights and really never bothered asking why we never came to fellowship. It didn't take long to run off all the other faithfull from our old fellowship. They left after 3 years with little success. They were mostly adept at putting their hands out...other than that they didn't have much use for us...nor we for them. I know the Word says..."The Love of God thinks no evil"...but there were some who just rub you the wrong way.
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potato
is it thinking evil to call a spade a spade?
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waysider
Spudster-----------I have no idea if it's evil but I am sure it is futile.
It also has no effect on a garden rake or weed wacker.
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Hope R.
My most recent legalism stories -- which I think I've told before but not in this context:
I had to take LCM's "new" Advanced Class at Rome City in 1995 or I'd no longer be considered an Advanced Class Grad. That in itself is fodder for this topic... but wait!
While I was there, I started to reminisce about some of the things I experienced there - good times only, of course, I knew the walls had ears. I told some story about one of Craig's visits - it was funny - not malicious or critical of him at all. I thought I was safe.
Well - some Corps Nazi woman who reminded me of Janet My***le confronted me after a meal about my stories. She told me that I wa being disrespectful because I called REV-ER-END-MAR-TIN-DALE by his first name!!! OMG - I was just speechless, which those who know me know that to be almost impossible! I said something like "when I was in residence, we ALL called him Craig". She replied with some crap about old wineskins and told me to be more aware of those who might be offended by that kind of talk!
Later that week:
Coming into and going out of every meeting and meal was either a audio or video tape of "The Singing Ladies of The Way". Even if I liked them - enough was enough! I made a comment that it would be nice to hear something else... that there must be enough talent in "the ministry" for someone to rise up and write and perform.
Once again - a different Corps Nazi approached me and told me that the person I was talking to was in her Advanced Class fellowship, and she was very upset that I had criticized a group of people who were so committed to the prevailing word... or some kind of crap like that. I told her that this person took it the wrong way -- I never said I didn't like them (which I didn't), I had only said I wish there was more diversity in Way Productions. I was quoted a verse in Romans that says something about thy brother being grieved by thy meat. Oy.
Last but not least...
I asked Paul M**q***a - who was in charge of Rome City at the time, why there was no singing at meal times-- not even "Roll Away!" I shared that those times were some of my fondest memories of the Advanced Classes and Summer Schools I had attended at HQ's years before. Well, no need to tell you that THAT was a huge mistake. I got an in-your-face lecture about dwelling in the past, more old-wineskin crap and that I'd be better off keeping stories of my past TWI experiences to myself. Oy.
Tell you what - if I had driven there, I would have gotten in my car gone right back to Tampa that day. Out of all the years I spent in TWI - I would have to say that those 10 days in Rome City were the very worst and the most legalistic times I ever had.
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excathedra
came on here to say hi to hope
i don't think i've read this thread
legalism there's too much there, i think i'm trying to still be in denial
anyone here from tom jenkinson lately ?
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Hope R.
OMG - Linda!!!
After I read that - I remembered that LCM told us a story about feeling so guilty for throwing away a paper clip that he actually searched through his office garbage can to retrieve it!!! Something about being a good steward...
Can you say anal retentive???
Hi excie -- I'm actually sitting at your computer - John's been working on it and it's set up in my family room!!! How convenient! CSI and GSC at the same time!
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excathedra
my dear hope CSI and GSC excellent cults in my humble opinion !!!!
the paper clip story ha ha ha ha ha ha ha h ah ah ah ha ha ha ha what a bunch of crap
look at how they lived .... what stewards of nice people's ABS ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha
john is my hero :wub:
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rascal
My worst legalism story was when the bc`s wife that moved into our wayhome, insisted that I get up and have the carpet vaccumed before 8 am every motning as my household responsibility. I worked 3rd shift untill 5 am every morning.
I would vaccume at night before I left and the bc and his family would trash it by eating popcorn and such each evening.
The next morning she would come into my room after I had only slept an hour or two.....in a rage...screaming at me for being a sluggard and grab my leg and haul me off of the bed to where I would slam into the floor..... I would have to listen to her lecture me about responsibilities and stewardship untill the whole house was revaccumed.
The same senario played out day after day. I was 18 at the time, I`d damned well like to see her try the same thing today.
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GrouchoMarxJr
I really can't think of any legalism stories like the ones that I've read...This micromanaging a person's life boggles my mind. I can't believe that they were reduced to such controlling weinies.
I left in 1987 when Martindale required that twig leaders start reporting (on a weekly basis), who was faithful in their fellowship and who wasn't....I flat out refused...that was the end of it.
No offense intended...but to allow this guy to micromanage your lives the way he did!!!...Why didn't you just quit? I never would have put up with that crap. Get permission to attend a cake baking class?...What, you're kidding me right? My attitude was always...twi will get what I give them...nothing more. When they pushed me, I pushed back...
In the early 70's, twi believers were smoking dope at twig, getting drunk in bars and doing what they damn well pleased...nobody ever had to account for themselves...it was none of their damned business...and they knew it! It wasn't until an evolution of mind conditioning and group think mentality that saturated twi..did the legalism begin to take root...they convinced people that they were responsible to THEM (twi leaders) for their actions...they began to live in the eyes of other people and they lost their way...so very sad.
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Lori
I agree Groucho!
it was when LCM wanted total allegiance as he put it (during the leadership tapes 1 & 2)....and with the promise things would get to the prevailing word! What a lie! It makes me think of a verse in 2 Peter 2:19.....
"While they promise them liberty, they themselves are the servants of corruption: for of whom a man is overcome, of the same is he brought in bondage."
Why did we follow this man and this corrupt ministry? We should have had brains to think with.......
How sad!!!!! however enlightening........
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skyrider
That evolution of mind conditioning and groupthink mentality that saturated twi...........was wierwille's brain storm of control: aka the indoctrination of way corps leadership. After 10-12 years of corps programming and developing a hierarchy of yes-men......the tipping point was reached and micromanagement of the masses was achieved.
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rascal
Well speaking for myself Groucho, At 17 I was pretty naieve. I believed these men when they said that they spoke for God. I believed later when they taught that if I didn`t obey leadership that God couldn`t protect me and Satan would be allowed to kill me....or worse I would get posessed.
I believed that in not obeying, that I was not serving God.
Stupid, yeah but very devious how everything was presented not as what they wanted from us but what God almighty required of a dulous.
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hiway29
the legalism was always there, but started to become bizarre for me around '78.
I was in Ct at the time, and a HUGE push began about obeying the 'man of God'.
The 4 steps down from the mystery became common teaching at twig coordinator meetings, emphasizing above all, the requirement to obey the man of God. Any 'suggestion' by a leader, even in casual conversation , pertaining to something that's none of his concern, was to be considered the same as God speaking to you.
The leader was always right in every situation. If you got roasted over the fire for something, anything, you had it coming to you. In fact we were to WELCOME the Godly reproof, in appreciation that God would have a loving minister reprove and correct you. How else are you going to grow unless you have someone in your face ?
If most people had a clue what was in store for them when they signed that green card, they would've headed for the hills. And this was back in the 'good days'.
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Watered Garden
The last three years were the hardest for us. We were grilled about everything! Our TC's wife even told me I wasn't sexy enough and gave me some really sleazy night things to wear, which my husband thought were ugly. Our son was to rebellious, and needed to be thrashed daily. Then they decided I didn't love our son enough, or maybe I didn't show him enough. I was required to do six things every day to show my son I loved him, then call her and tell her what they were.
Woke him up in time for school
Fixed his breakfast
Packed his lunch
Greeted with a hug and a kiss when he came home from school.
Presented the cookies I had baked for him that day.
Decorated Happy Household Holiday tree ornaments together.
Yada Yada Yada. Of course very little of this was good enough for her. Never mind I also worked part time.
A couple months after this little furor, the little Ba***ard branch leader said to me out of a clear blue sky, "Now see how much better things are when you and your husband are likeminded?"
I smiled sweetly and agreed, "Yes, they are certainly much better." I to this day have NO idea what someone told him to make him say that. We only had one problem with our marriage and that was that we were in TWI. Things did get much better when we left that bunch of morons behind.
From about 1993-94 onward, there was no love, no tenderness, no concern for the individual. There was only legalism.
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skyrider
Yeah.........around 1978/79 there WAS a huge push on "obey the man of God" doctrine. For me, RED FLAGS WERE FLYING......but, silly me, to think that I should notice corps coordinators promoting this seductive doctrine into the fabric of the corps program.
And, in 1978.......vpw and lcm had to get waist-deep into that situation where three 8th corps guys had done some research that really ruffled vpw's feathers. Anyways, after that...........the clamps really came down on doing independent research. On several occasions, martindale scoffed at the corps' ability to even do any research that would be noteworthy.
Yeah, hiway.......by 1978, legalism in twi had gained legs.
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