It made me wonder - is the Way's real problem with debt based on their lack of trust and fear? That people, inherently, aren't to be trusted and cant be trusted? All the micro-management of even the most mundane aspects of life...? It would explain the failure of any long term collective success of the organization and the several restarts the Way's gone through since it began.
Muhammad Yunus could start out by trusting because he had nothing to hide. His motives were pure from the beginning. The organization had no such claim to fame.
They started out OR quickly evolved deceitful practices...and we all know...once you tell a lie you have to keep embellishing it, and polishing it and retelling it because sooner or later reasonable people will figure it out! They didn't trust us, and they couldn't trust us because they were afraid we would eventually figure out the truth.....I guess they were right!
I guess it all comes down to integrity. Yunus had it, they didn't.
With the loans for the land Im assuming they could lose the land if found in defaut.
That is the problem i have with debt, it means giving the power of something to another to hold while you pay them back.
Im in debt, and i have been out of debt i really prefer the latter, because for me being in debt means I am owing somone a right or power over what i can do .
i do understand why god might say owe no man anything, it is aburden.
and then to go bankrupt is so very common today, at least in my family and friends. Is that haivng integrity? somone pays for that. we all do, is that loving to your neighbor?
Integrity is anice concept and i have a perfect credit score because i paid, but it is so easy for young folks or a disabled person to get in so much over your head the only way out is destruction of the very lie that got you into debt.
Living beyond your means to kepp up with the jones is different than paying for a loan for land you can till to repay the loan.
..."The power of trust"...from what I've read of the Way's Debt Doctrine it's basically one-dimensional, based on a misinterpretation of the verse "Owe no man, etc." and a mish mash of records from the Old Testament.
The power of trust to act responsibly and honorably is completely ignored. The honest desire of a person to honor and repect their own word and the word of another is given no value. Likewise the ability of one person or entity of means to assist another who would benefit from those means - is ignored.
This guy's achieved some significant results he's being recognized for. It made me wonder - is the Way's real problem with debt based on their lack of trust and fear? That people, inherently, aren't to be trusted and cant be trusted? All the micro-management of even the most mundane aspects of life...? It would explain the failure of any long term collective success of the organization and the several restarts the Way's gone through since it began.
Excellent point, Socks! And I like TempleLady's pointing out TWI's intent of getting their hands on the money you would send to a creditor...Interesting article - I read about the guy in our local paper. The loan process was a community effort. They would talk to several people who knew the loan applicant and if they thought it would work. Like Krysilis and Pond said - integrity is a big part of the deal! What a great and simple idea that is helping the people of Bangladesh.
A single individual, or a small group of private individuals could do this with great success. I have no doubt that the poor have honest intentions and would work hard to fulfill their commitment. Those few who defaulted would be more than balanced out by those who didn't.
However, and this is the big part; I doubt that major banking institutions would follow suit. They have a responsibility to their stock holders and other members such that if it didn't work, the losses would be greater both in quantity and in number of people affected.
I also had a "flash back"! Isn't this the way we used to do business here back in the "old days"? A man (or woman) was as good as his word?
on 20.20 last night they said a full 73 % of High school students feel it is needed to cheat or lie on tests to succeed.
and another 28% said they lied on the survey questions!!
look at big business and the politcal scandals left and right.. times are such we can not go by a persons "word" , integrity is gone in our society.
the students said 'we are the future leaders of america and it is not one of honesty or integrity it is one of success at all cost and compromise.
ya know for me, I guess the whole being a christian thing it what counts now.. it is to late for me all i have left is my gut and my self and that means who I am to me.. and i need to be able to be at peace with me.
i do not think i will ever succeed really not by any of this worlds standard, so i try to succeed for my own self and that means being able to think clearly without denial and cheating another the best I can.
debt to me is cheating when folks go into debt fully aware or not( by the tricks of the business and credit thrown at anyone without any education on how to handle it . ]t is a type of fraud and lying.
our culture today really embrases that concept as long as youdo not get caught anything goes today.
The article and the banking system used hit home to me because of what you said kysilis - a community approach seems to be part of the success. It's big, but it's small. The individual approach to a person's need allows for a one-to-one peer relationship that may not be, probably isn't across the board, in conventional loan situations.
The micro approach would allow for profit to be made by making lots of small loans, not a few (or a lot) of big, high interest loans. Risk management - key phrase. A high risk borrower could be a lot of things. "Bad" risk (doesn't pay or pay ontime) could always be refused or rated accordingly. This system seems to allow for high risk to be redefined to excluse lack of income or assets - you're poor but willing and say you'll be honest.
Profits - now, granted this banking system is more philanthropic than your standard bank, but in concept it's the same - all banks have to make return on investment and reinvest. And the philanthropic approach is what makes it work. If the people succeed and make good on their trust, the bank succeeds. Collective grouping and sharing of assets works - this system works by targetinng a real niche market - those who need help the most, those who can't get it from any of the conventional sources.
Yeah, at one time the Way expounded on this kind of concept, it's very very similar in some respects. Loans for business, for people starting out in life or attempting to build something were considered good "business" for the church. Money comes in, money goes out - to the members of the church. "Elders" would be there to assist and advise. Basically a community of people sharing it's assets for the benefit of everyone involved. But - it never happened.
Which brings back the trust issue. Building a system that promotes that and helps bring the best out of people seeems to be a noble, worthy effort. Instead of telling people something can't be done because people will fail - which I believe is where the Way has gone over the years - you would work to build a foundation of success trusting people and grow from there.
pond, I do tend to agree in certain respects. Particulary in that the acceptable level of integrity today has been lowered quite a bit. Basically, lower the bar and allow for less.
But - not all. There's many examples of honest youth today as not. Where do we go with that?
Family is the most effective thing I know to promoting that. Family is where the lessons are learned and the examples of life stick.
The extended family of immediate relatives, church and friends is where it all happens IMO. School and work follow, we spend about what - a 1/3 of our time or more there.
I think in a church you could expect to see a community of trust and honesty built. Or hope so anyway - and as you said T-Bone - community and integrity are the keys.
Templelady - the Way does want the money. All intake, no outlet, make for stinky sludge.
With our family there's only a few things I've tried to teach my children, that are important. Not endless recitations of John 10:10, not who to stand with or what ministry is true of anything like that. Just to be loving helpful people as best they can, to seek to do good. And to be honest and straight up in what they do. It's not easy, it's hard sometimes. Most of the time it seems. But you can't get there if you don't get up and out of bed and hit the bricks trying.
The Way's knee-jerk attitude about debt completely gets them off the hook of ever having to extend themselves to anyone to do anything for them. Their doctrine seems to be "go out and get your own. And then give it to us". Of your own choice, of course.
Not all bankruptcies are the fault of the person who has to claim it. I know people who had dishonest spouses with gambling or drug problems or who just couldn't be honest with how much money or how many credit cards they were charging up while they were married. They racked up credit card charges getting cash to cover their habits.
A divorce happened, the person who racked up the charges was declared responsible for that debt according to the divorce decree. The problem with that is that the credit card companies don't care what the divorce papers say after the person responsible for the debt claims bankruptcy. The law protects the credit card companys o they can go after the divorced spouse because they were married to the person at the time the charges were incurred. That can force a person in to bankruptcy whether they like it or not.
I know someone this happened to. He could handle his own financial matters, but he could not handle the $60,000 of debt pushed on him by his ex wife. She declared bankruptcy right after the divorce, so the creditors came after him. He contacted an attorney to see his options. He had to claim bankruptcy as well.
I don't know what will happen for people this happens to now since you can't claim bankrupty on credit card debt anymore.
Too much credit is freely given in this country. There should be more limits on it. There should be more limits on interest charges.
The bank now reports having 6.61 million borrowers, 97 percent of whom are women. Its loan-recovery rate is a near-flawless 98.5 percent. Conventional banks in Bangladesh, which lend mainly to affluent families with collateral, have recovery rates of 45 percent to 50 percent, said Mustafizur Rahman, research director at the Center for Policy Dialogue in Dhaka
wow. you would think greedy people would take a look at that 98.5 percent, wouldn't they ???? oh well i don't understand greedy liars.....
poor people can be very honest and deserve a chance, you know ? i know plenty of people who use the system, welfare, etc., but i know people who could not have made it without it, myself included. when we were children, that's the only way were able to make it. not one of us (nine kids) have ever been on welfare as adults. thank you, mom :)
um what else ? family is so important. i wish politicians acted like good family even good business people....
yesterday my son almost got very hurt. he came home and told me how glad he was God was watching over him. that made me smile since we don't belong to anything.
thanks socks, the mountaintop check is in the mail ;)
Notawayfer - oh yeah, the interest rates are slash and burn. Check this out from that article:
The inspiration for Grameen Bank came to Yunus during a trip to Jobra, a village in Bangladesh, during the devastating famine of 1976. He met a woman who was struggling to make ends meet weaving bamboo stools. Because she had no assets, she was unable to borrow from the conventional banks and had to turn to local moneylenders. The extortionate interest left her with virtually no earnings.
Yunus, then a professor of rural economics at Chittagong University, lent $27 of his own money to her and several other villagers, enabling them to buy raw materials for their work. He was surprised to discover that the borrowers, mainly women, paid back their loans in full and on time.
Determined to prove that lending to the poor was not an "impossible proposition," Yunus went from village to village that year offering more tiny loans.
This guy deserves at LEAST a Nobel Prize, y'know?
Thank YOU Ex. (an electronic preacher's gotta make a living too!) The Congregation of Them's That Don't Belong prayed over your Minimum Financial Response this morning when we didn't meet.
I learned a lot of things when I was a teacher over those so many years. One of the most important is that people become who you tell them they are. They get the message even if you don't use words! How you treat them, how you talk to them what you will and will not accept from them. The only caveat is, you must completely honest and completely consistent in all your dealings with them. If your're not, they'll see it quickly enough and turn you off. You lose everything then...hope for the best and do better next year.
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templelady
The Ways inherent dislike of debt is very simple
If I'm paying 150 a month for a sofa that is 150 they aren;t going to get their paws on
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krys
Muhammad Yunus could start out by trusting because he had nothing to hide. His motives were pure from the beginning. The organization had no such claim to fame.
They started out OR quickly evolved deceitful practices...and we all know...once you tell a lie you have to keep embellishing it, and polishing it and retelling it because sooner or later reasonable people will figure it out! They didn't trust us, and they couldn't trust us because they were afraid we would eventually figure out the truth.....I guess they were right!
I guess it all comes down to integrity. Yunus had it, they didn't.
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pond
With the loans for the land Im assuming they could lose the land if found in defaut.
That is the problem i have with debt, it means giving the power of something to another to hold while you pay them back.
Im in debt, and i have been out of debt i really prefer the latter, because for me being in debt means I am owing somone a right or power over what i can do .
i do understand why god might say owe no man anything, it is aburden.
and then to go bankrupt is so very common today, at least in my family and friends. Is that haivng integrity? somone pays for that. we all do, is that loving to your neighbor?
Integrity is anice concept and i have a perfect credit score because i paid, but it is so easy for young folks or a disabled person to get in so much over your head the only way out is destruction of the very lie that got you into debt.
Living beyond your means to kepp up with the jones is different than paying for a loan for land you can till to repay the loan.
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T-Bone
Excellent point, Socks! And I like TempleLady's pointing out TWI's intent of getting their hands on the money you would send to a creditor...Interesting article - I read about the guy in our local paper. The loan process was a community effort. They would talk to several people who knew the loan applicant and if they thought it would work. Like Krysilis and Pond said - integrity is a big part of the deal! What a great and simple idea that is helping the people of Bangladesh.
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krys
I have to add something as I think about it more.
A single individual, or a small group of private individuals could do this with great success. I have no doubt that the poor have honest intentions and would work hard to fulfill their commitment. Those few who defaulted would be more than balanced out by those who didn't.
However, and this is the big part; I doubt that major banking institutions would follow suit. They have a responsibility to their stock holders and other members such that if it didn't work, the losses would be greater both in quantity and in number of people affected.
I also had a "flash back"! Isn't this the way we used to do business here back in the "old days"? A man (or woman) was as good as his word?
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pond
maybe so.
but times have changed.
on 20.20 last night they said a full 73 % of High school students feel it is needed to cheat or lie on tests to succeed.
and another 28% said they lied on the survey questions!!
look at big business and the politcal scandals left and right.. times are such we can not go by a persons "word" , integrity is gone in our society.
the students said 'we are the future leaders of america and it is not one of honesty or integrity it is one of success at all cost and compromise.
ya know for me, I guess the whole being a christian thing it what counts now.. it is to late for me all i have left is my gut and my self and that means who I am to me.. and i need to be able to be at peace with me.
i do not think i will ever succeed really not by any of this worlds standard, so i try to succeed for my own self and that means being able to think clearly without denial and cheating another the best I can.
debt to me is cheating when folks go into debt fully aware or not( by the tricks of the business and credit thrown at anyone without any education on how to handle it . ]t is a type of fraud and lying.
our culture today really embrases that concept as long as youdo not get caught anything goes today.
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socks
Great responses, all. Thanks.
The article and the banking system used hit home to me because of what you said kysilis - a community approach seems to be part of the success. It's big, but it's small. The individual approach to a person's need allows for a one-to-one peer relationship that may not be, probably isn't across the board, in conventional loan situations.
The micro approach would allow for profit to be made by making lots of small loans, not a few (or a lot) of big, high interest loans. Risk management - key phrase. A high risk borrower could be a lot of things. "Bad" risk (doesn't pay or pay ontime) could always be refused or rated accordingly. This system seems to allow for high risk to be redefined to excluse lack of income or assets - you're poor but willing and say you'll be honest.
Profits - now, granted this banking system is more philanthropic than your standard bank, but in concept it's the same - all banks have to make return on investment and reinvest. And the philanthropic approach is what makes it work. If the people succeed and make good on their trust, the bank succeeds. Collective grouping and sharing of assets works - this system works by targetinng a real niche market - those who need help the most, those who can't get it from any of the conventional sources.
Yeah, at one time the Way expounded on this kind of concept, it's very very similar in some respects. Loans for business, for people starting out in life or attempting to build something were considered good "business" for the church. Money comes in, money goes out - to the members of the church. "Elders" would be there to assist and advise. Basically a community of people sharing it's assets for the benefit of everyone involved. But - it never happened.
Which brings back the trust issue. Building a system that promotes that and helps bring the best out of people seeems to be a noble, worthy effort. Instead of telling people something can't be done because people will fail - which I believe is where the Way has gone over the years - you would work to build a foundation of success trusting people and grow from there.
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socks
pond, I do tend to agree in certain respects. Particulary in that the acceptable level of integrity today has been lowered quite a bit. Basically, lower the bar and allow for less.
But - not all. There's many examples of honest youth today as not. Where do we go with that?
Family is the most effective thing I know to promoting that. Family is where the lessons are learned and the examples of life stick.
The extended family of immediate relatives, church and friends is where it all happens IMO. School and work follow, we spend about what - a 1/3 of our time or more there.
I think in a church you could expect to see a community of trust and honesty built. Or hope so anyway - and as you said T-Bone - community and integrity are the keys.
Templelady - the Way does want the money. All intake, no outlet, make for stinky sludge.
With our family there's only a few things I've tried to teach my children, that are important. Not endless recitations of John 10:10, not who to stand with or what ministry is true of anything like that. Just to be loving helpful people as best they can, to seek to do good. And to be honest and straight up in what they do. It's not easy, it's hard sometimes. Most of the time it seems. But you can't get there if you don't get up and out of bed and hit the bricks trying.
The Way's knee-jerk attitude about debt completely gets them off the hook of ever having to extend themselves to anyone to do anything for them. Their doctrine seems to be "go out and get your own. And then give it to us". Of your own choice, of course.
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Nottawayfer
Not all bankruptcies are the fault of the person who has to claim it. I know people who had dishonest spouses with gambling or drug problems or who just couldn't be honest with how much money or how many credit cards they were charging up while they were married. They racked up credit card charges getting cash to cover their habits.
A divorce happened, the person who racked up the charges was declared responsible for that debt according to the divorce decree. The problem with that is that the credit card companies don't care what the divorce papers say after the person responsible for the debt claims bankruptcy. The law protects the credit card companys o they can go after the divorced spouse because they were married to the person at the time the charges were incurred. That can force a person in to bankruptcy whether they like it or not.
I know someone this happened to. He could handle his own financial matters, but he could not handle the $60,000 of debt pushed on him by his ex wife. She declared bankruptcy right after the divorce, so the creditors came after him. He contacted an attorney to see his options. He had to claim bankruptcy as well.
I don't know what will happen for people this happens to now since you can't claim bankrupty on credit card debt anymore.
Too much credit is freely given in this country. There should be more limits on it. There should be more limits on interest charges.
Edited by NottawayferLink to comment
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excathedra
what a beautiful story and it's true !!!!
wow. you would think greedy people would take a look at that 98.5 percent, wouldn't they ???? oh well i don't understand greedy liars.....poor people can be very honest and deserve a chance, you know ? i know plenty of people who use the system, welfare, etc., but i know people who could not have made it without it, myself included. when we were children, that's the only way were able to make it. not one of us (nine kids) have ever been on welfare as adults. thank you, mom :)
um what else ? family is so important. i wish politicians acted like good family even good business people....
yesterday my son almost got very hurt. he came home and told me how glad he was God was watching over him. that made me smile since we don't belong to anything.
thanks socks, the mountaintop check is in the mail ;)
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socks
Notawayfer - oh yeah, the interest rates are slash and burn. Check this out from that article:
Thank YOU Ex. (an electronic preacher's gotta make a living too!) The Congregation of Them's That Don't Belong prayed over your Minimum Financial Response this morning when we didn't meet.
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excathedra
i love you socks and i would love to not belong to your nonexistent congragation mwah
see i can't even spell the word anymore :)
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krys
Thanks socks.
I learned a lot of things when I was a teacher over those so many years. One of the most important is that people become who you tell them they are. They get the message even if you don't use words! How you treat them, how you talk to them what you will and will not accept from them. The only caveat is, you must completely honest and completely consistent in all your dealings with them. If your're not, they'll see it quickly enough and turn you off. You lose everything then...hope for the best and do better next year.
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