I don't even know what it really means to walk by the spirit anymore. I don't feel like I've been disconnected with God, in fact I feel closer to him than I did before breaking away from TWI, but I've also stopped trying to live up to "SIT much" and I'm giddy with relief. TWI would say my feelings don't mean anything and that I'm deceived, but I don't care.
I stopped SITing when I left twi for the most part. I don't feel like I have missed out on one thing. If anything, I feel more at peace with my relationship with Him. SIT was overrated in TWI IMHO :). It was a mindless way to make yourself feel spiriatual. But it wasn't a relationship with Him. A relationship is two-way communication. We were so focused on doctrine and walking erect in TWI that we forgot all about a relationship with Him. It was great coming back in to His arms when I left TWI.
...when we first visited h.q. and saw it's beauty and then the auditorium and everything else...it helped 'cement' the Word even further in our hearts.
I've seen churches and campuses that are run on a shoe string and others where people didn't give a damn about the presentation and then having met some of the people involved, I could see why...
I too was impressed with the way the grounds were kept and the attention to detail and all that. In fact, much of what I now practice about orderliness and planning I got from The Way...as well as from my parents, especially my Dad.
However, does a nice place and a slick presentation guarantee that what is being presented is any good? I would say not. Does a shabby store front and a less-than-professional presentation indicate that anything is lacking? Doubt it.
However, does a nice place and a slick presentation guarantee that what is being presented is any good? I would say not. Does a shabby store front and a less-than-professional presentation indicate that anything is lacking? Doubt it.
Actually, the best restaurants I've ever eaten at have been Mom & Pop's that don't look like much from the outside.
Places like TWI, The Crystal Cathedral and all these other palatial, sterile, showy places feel just like whited sepulchres to me. Lots of glitter but no substance and certainly no love for God nor his people. Just love of money, imo.... <_<
I think appearances were way overrated in TWI. Slick, expensive, attractive...maintaining the look, the illusion of perfection and abundance, was more important than what went on inside hearts and lives.
It translated into people's lives. How many people kept others at a distance so they could maintain thier perfect illusion? Especially leaders.
I do not trust those that put huge emphasis on appearance anymore. Nor have I ever seen a church or religious building that wasn't kept up.
A food pantry in the old part of downtown maintained by a church, doesn't have to look like a 5 star hotel to do the job.
"V.P. is still the man that put it all together, made sense of it, "
Skyrider, replying to Allan:
"Not according to Mrs. Wierwille's book, Born Again to Serve." She gives explicit details of vpw's excitement in finding B.G. Leonard's ministry and heading up to Calgary, Alberta Canada. And, much more than just syllabus learning..........B.G. spent time with his students on the operation of the manifestations."
WordWolf, replying to Allan:
"'Put it all together'. Actually, the early forms were not 'put together.'
They were Leonard's class with vpw's name on them."
WhatTheHey, replying to WordWolf:
"I would need to ask you to clarify and qualify that statement. What exactly are you implying by saying the early forms were not 'put together'?"
Oakspear, replying to WhatTheHey:
"I'm sure that WordWolf will be along to clarify, but while the film/video class that most of us took was different in many aspects from Leonard's class, including gifts vs. manifestations, there is much to suggest that the original class that Wierwille taught was actually Leonard's class."
WordWolf now responds to WhatTheHey:
Actually, my answer was in the part of the SAME SENTENCE WTH quoted.
vpw's original class was NOT original. It was BG Leonard's class with vpw's name on it.
vpw took BG Leonard's class (June 28-July 15, 1953.)
October 1953, vpw told BG Leonard he wanted to teach Leonard's class locally
on a one-time basis. LEONARD's class, as he told Leonard.
Leonard agreed.
vpw ran the class, and sent Leonard a photograph of Leonard's class, which sits
in Leonard's photo album to this very day.
What vpw told the STUDENTS was that this was vpw's class on
"RECEIVING THE HOLY SPIRIT TODAY". (Later changed to pfal.)
NO mention of Leonard or Leonard's class.
Even if it's not obvious to you that there would be no time to completely change
Leonard's class, the testimony of those who had sat thru Leonard's class and
THEN vpw's class might mean something.
vpw counted those who had taken Leonard's class in the June 28-July 15 class
as ALREADY GRADS of the "Receiving the Holy Spirit Today" class.
Therefore, vpw, by several measures, called them
the same class with 2 different names.
Therefore, vpw did not "put it together."
He put his own name on Leonard's class.
=======
Since you're also haggling over prices, I should add the following:
Yes, Leonard's class is more than you paid for the pfal foundational class.
Of course, Leonard's class was taken by vpw and padded out to
ALL THREE pfal levels-foundational, intermediate and advanced.
Thus, you're comparing Leonard's price for all three against the price
for ONE, which is an inequitable measure. When you compare Leonard's
price against ALL THREE, Leonard's appears to be an incredible bargain.
Especially for those people who were talked into paying $100 or $200
for pfal...
=========
Leonard also set his class as a supplement to existing ministries. He intended
for people to bless their normal ministries after taking his class. Leonard never
set up a structure and church (nor did he expect 10% of their income or
anything else...)
Now, those who think that any class is not a good thing, they can dislike Leonard's
class consistently.
Others of us don't think a class is automatically right or automatically wrong.
We DO object to making a class into something other than a tool-
turning it into a Rite of Passage and a REQUIREMENT is FAR different from
What I (originally) meant in 'putting it all together' was Vp taking the 'good' stuff out of Leonards class, taking the 'dead are not alive' from somewhere else (or was that in Leonards class as well)?, Jesus Christ is not God (I doubt that was taken from Leonards, Stiles or bullinger), etc..etc..
What I (originally) meant in 'putting it all together' was Vp taking the 'good' stuff out of Leonards class, taking the 'dead are not alive' from somewhere else (or was that in Leonards class as well)?, Jesus Christ is not God (I doubt that was taken from Leonards, Stiles or bullinger), etc..etc..
I responded to that possible meaning.
I consider that more of a cut-and-paste job, and not the seamless integration
some people keep suggesting.
My followup response was only because WTH insisted on making an issue of it.
========
As for the dead, I keep pointing out that was from Bullinger.
"Are the Dead Alive Now?" was from "the Rich Man and Lazarus: an Intermediate State?"
complete with question in the title.
Plus Bullinger's work on "Saul and the Witch at Endor."
Some quotes that have been posted from Leonard's work have suggested
the basic idea undergirding JCNG was taken from Leonard's books as well.
So far, the only thing I've yet to see a source for is the term "manifestation"
replacing "gift". Even parts of his supposed biography seem to have been
What I (originally) meant in 'putting it all together' was Vp taking the 'good' stuff out of Leonards class, taking the 'dead are not alive' from somewhere else (or was that in Leonards class as well)?, Jesus Christ is not God (I doubt that was taken from Leonards, Stiles or bullinger), etc..etc..
When wierwille "put it all together"......cut and pasting material from Leonard, Stiles, Bullinger and others.... wasn't the pfal class (originally) run with intermediate material as well? Students were expected to SIT, interpret and phrophecy at the end of this 15-session class....and, a couple of segments were shelved and played at a later date because they added confusion and consternation. Many just weren't ready for the segment on "The Unforgiveable Sin" and "The Day Jesus Christ Died." (??)
Even after wierwille "put it all together"........it was adapted and re-adapted. And, as early as 1975/76, there was lots of backroom talk in getting a better class out there.....after PFAL '77 was filmed. Didn't happen, though......but that was one of the intents of filming during that event.
Initially, the PFAL class had all three Foundational, Intermediate & Advanced combined into one. Later the "Advanced" was separated out. Still later, after PFAL was committed to tape, the "Intermediate" was separated into its own class.
Yeah, eventually PFAL became, depite its origins, different than all its "parents", but I believe that the assumption that Wierwille combined or distilled or cut & pasted "the good stuff", or got rid of the "in-acrit" stuff is unwarranted. Many of us who hold this opinion apparently judge the truth or accuracy of what's in these precurser classes and books based on what Wierwille taught, not on an independent analysis and study of either material.
...and to correct what I said in an earlier post. I lumped Leonard's class in with Wierwille's in an "all classes are bad" category. I had forgotten that Leonard's class was just that: a class. It was designed to teach a few things, then send people back to their home churches. Wierwille's class was the very foundation of his ministry: 2 different things.
...and to correct what I said in an earlier post. I lumped Leonard's class in with Wierwille's in an "all classes are bad" category. I had forgotten that Leonard's class was just that: a class. It was designed to teach a few things, then send people back to their home churches. Wierwille's class was the very foundation of his ministry: 2 different things.
Yeah.......2 different things, totally. :)
And, didn't Leonard stay at the helm of running these classes where he was available to instruct and guide the new student into demonstrating God's power....praying/ministering to others??
What I (originally) meant in 'putting it all together' was Vp taking the 'good' stuff out of Leonards class, taking the 'dead are not alive' from somewhere else (or was that in Leonards class as well)?, Jesus Christ is not God (I doubt that was taken from Leonards, Stiles or bullinger), etc..etc..
After VP had established his flock, he would find other peoples material that contradicted the teachings of mainstream churches. He would make these critically important doctrines (any other doctrines invite devil spirits) thus keeping you from going anywhere else but Da Vunderful Vay. Trapped with no were to go making it next to impossible to leave. Well, until things started falling apart.
Must have been 'mere coincidence' that what VP took from everywhere else WAS/IS scintillatingly close to the purportedly 'original God breathed Word' ??!!
How do people reconcile all the lies of vee pee, including the fact that he claimed to be teaching the Bible like it hadn't been taught since the first century with the fact that the things he taught were plagarized and stolen from so many other people who were way before his time?
Must have been 'mere coincidence' that what VP took from everywhere else WAS/IS scintillatingly close to the purportedly 'original God breathed Word' ??!!
IMO (of course) !!
Allan....not quite sure that I'd call wierwille's "absent Christ" doctrine scintillatingly close to the purportedly original God-breathed Word.
In fact, that doctrine ALONE.......spun a whole web of idolatrous doctrines.
How do people reconcile all the lies of vee pee, including the fact that he claimed to be teaching the Bible like it hadn't been taught since the first century with the fact that the things he taught were plagarized and stolen from so many other people who were way before his time?
Belle -- that is an EXCELLENT point. Never did put *that two and two* together.
And, didn't Leonard stay at the helm of running these classes where he was available to instruct and guide the new student into demonstrating God's power....praying/ministering to others??
Yes.
First of all, his classes were NOT for the new person as a rite of passage.
If you went in to them, it was expected you were already speaking in tongues.
Second of all, yes, they were a class, not the gateway to an organization.
Graduates went back to their own groups-which was what was expected.
(pfal was expected to be the first step in a lifetime of twi involvement twice a week plus events.)
Third of all, Leonard was among the students, instructing not only intellectually,
but in power and by example.
So, the live Leonard coverage on, say, healing was a LOT more "hands on" than, say
the live vpw coverage on healing. (That was more just discussions.)
This is not that hard if you're really good with the particular subject.
(Before taking the Advanced class, I was already figuring out what would be
covered concerning the "information" manifestations, and those can actually
be hands-on if the instructor is that conversant in the subject.)
So, Leonard's class was as much lecture as "practice-session" for ALL NINE
instead of just three of them, rather than talking about all nine and practicing THREE.
How do people reconcile all the lies of vee pee, including the fact that he claimed to be teaching the Bible like it hadn't been taught since the first century with the fact that the things he taught were plagarized and stolen from so many other people who were way before his time?
A determined refusal to face the question,
dismissing the questioner with a well-timed ad hominem attack,
and concerted efforts to change the subject.
That's judging from experience here.
Must have been 'mere coincidence' that what VP took from everywhere else WAS/IS scintillatingly close to the purportedly 'original God breathed Word' ??!!
IMO (of course) !!
If it all was close, then that would be noteworthy.
The foundation for all 3 levels was the foundational class.
The foundation for the foundational class was Session 1.
Session 1 was focused on the "LAW" of believing.
This session was a failure, since there is no such thing as a "LAW" of believing,
neither as stated in the class, nor the syllabus, nor the books.
Since vpw was not getting his information directly from God as he claimed,
it is no surprise that his entire class was based on error.
(Later sessions built on it, and some of the material later introduced was
Maybe the point really is Belle and Wordwolf and Dave that 'some of us' don't really care too much how, why, where, when 'it' came together, but are 'very blessed' that it did.
As someone said before, literally tens of thousands got to hear this 'angle' on the word and that very likely would not have happened under Leonards ministry.
Leonards, Bullingers, Stiles etc...MAY have stayed as 'just another theological alternative' to mainstream Christianity.
VP at the height of his ministry was by all accounts really impacting mainstream Christianity. I believe that this part was 'of God'...what happened after was VP and others fault.
To sum it all up and hopefully not being too crude, "it's a bit like examining the vagina and the actual sex act to determine 'how' the baby happened, instead of focusing on the baby" !!
Maybe the point really is Belle and Wordwolf and Dave that 'some of us' don't really care too much how, why, where, when 'it' came together, but are 'very blessed' that it did.
There's several problems with that.
One,
you received blessings at the COST of some of your family in Christ receiving curses.
Some of the women, especially, who crossed vpw's path were not
"blessed" by the experience.
Two,
the integrity of a man's word is at the heart of ANY relationship he is in,
whether it be personal, business, casual, and so on.
When dealing with someone who claims to represent God, he should exemplify,
as best as he is able, godly practices-and at the very least not commit the evils Christians are
told to flee. If he is found to intentionally lie, intentionally take the money for God's work
and squander it on his vices, to treat all the women in the ministry as belonging to him,
then he CLEARLY demonstrates that he is unfit to represent God Almighty.
So, to say "It's ok for a man speaking for God to lie, rape and embezzle" is to deny
the contents OF the Word of God, which warn against such things.
Of course, no one ever says it's ALWAYS ok-
it's always "Well, MY MOG gets a SPECIAL EXEMPTION-
if anyone ELSE does it, it's a horrible crime...."
As someone said before, literally tens of thousands got to hear this 'angle' on the word and that very likely would not have happened under Leonards ministry.
Leonards, Bullingers, Stiles etc...MAY have stayed as 'just another theological alternative' to mainstream Christianity.
The growth in Leonard's ministry was severely hampered once he began dealing with the
wound vpw dealt him by stealing and plagiarizing his work. If not, HUNDREDS of thousands
might have received the SUPERIOR training in his group.
VP at the height of his ministry was by all accounts really impacting mainstream Christianity. I believe that this part was 'of God'...what happened after was VP and others fault.
To sum it all up and hopefully not being too crude, "it's a bit like examining the vagina and the actual sex act to determine 'how' the baby happened, instead of focusing on the baby" !!
I think I need my coffee !!
vp at the height of his ministry affected tens of thousands of Christians.
That's not even a blip on the radar of "mainstream Christianity."
And that was 1979-1982.
(It's significant to the people affected, for good or ill, but that's independent of numbers,
and true for 10 or 10 billion.)
After that was vpw dying.
BEFORE that was vpw committing various crimes and covering his tracks brilliantly,
as if he was well aware what he was doing was wrong, and that he could go to jail
if reports were filed. (lcm was caught, as if he wasn't aware what he was doing was
wrong and didn't really cover his tracks.)
The REAL strength of the group was always locally, among Christians who cared,
starting with the House of Acts and running thru many non-titled Christians who bled out
their lives for God and their fellow Christians. THEIR lives and actions were "of God."
vpw could talk a good talk, and could SAY he was spending his life for them,
but he lived a cushy existence, with short work-days, luxuries, and few, if any,
actual EXPECTATIONS to fill. Once the classes were on tape, he could literally just
delegate every piece of work to someone else, and stand around looking important.
It's interesting to note the use of a sexual analogy when someone's trying to belittle
the crimes of a known rapist. It strikes me as mildly ironic.
VP at the height of his ministry was byall accounts really impacting mainstream Christianity
ALL accounts?
Whose accounts were those?
How did I miss those? I'd love to see them.
I have seen mainstream Christian groups that have described him as 'heretica'l or as a 'false teacher' or at the very best 'controversial', but most dont mention him at all-- and as far as I know certainly werent being "impacted" by him, other than an occasional group that would offer cult counselling.
I could be wrong...
How about a few links (not all) from just some or even a few of these mainstream Christian sources that were impacted by his ministry so much.
Thanks-
I'll certainly be looking forward to reading those
October 1953, vpw told BG Leonard he wanted to teach Leonard's class locally on a one-time basis. LEONARD's class, as he told Leonard. Leonard agreed. vpw ran the class, and sent Leonard a photograph of Leonard's class, which sits in Leonard's photo album to this very day.
What vpw told the STUDENTS was that this was vpw's class on "RECEIVING THE HOLY SPIRIT TODAY". (Later changed to pfal.)
1. I don't believe you (except perhaps a STUDENT of that first 1953 class) can say with authority exactly what VPW taught on Receiving the Holy Spirit in that class. Even then, I would have plenty of reason to doubt what one of those students said. Why? Because if any of those students of that first class are still around today they would be older than I - likely in their 60's or perhaps their 70's by now. By the time a person gets that age it's doubtful one recalls with any clarity what happened in their teen's or 20's. If you contacted any of those students who first took the first PFAL class in 1953, then you're ahead of me there. But I wouldn't trust a 60 or 70 year olds recollection of what was taught in a bible class when they were a teenager (or perhaps slightly older) they took in 1953. VPW readily admits that B.G. Leonard taught him about healing and other aspects of the Holy Spirit field. He also admits it was George M. Lamsa that introduced him to Aramaic, the language of the original texts and that it was J.E. Stiles a pastor that led him into SIT. There is no "mystery" there on any of those things.
2. The PFAL class didn't become the focus of TWI's outreach until 1956. It was in Van Wert where VPW published the first edition of Receiving the Holy Spirit Today. He also wrote numerous booklets, pamphlets and monographs which during those years laid the groundwork for over 400 magazine and newspaper aticles and eleven major Biblical research works. It wouldn't surprise me if many things changed from what was originally taught in that first class up until the PFAL class being TWI's focus of outreach in 1956.
I guess the question still is though: Does the "focus of outreach" of a particular man's ministry mean their class is annointed? I believe it was Oakspear who stated:
It [refering to Leonards class] was designed to teach a few things, then send people back to their home churches. Wierwille's class was the very foundation of his ministry: 2 different things.
Well I agree with you, but I really don't see either one as a negative thing. PFAL was intended to be the focus of outreach for TWI in 1956. Yet it was during the 60's when VPW and Mrs. VPW conducted summer school classes, Way Family Camps, and other various Advances in the BRC. Aside from live PFAL, these other activities were the greatest opportunities for PFAL grads to become rooted in God's Word. Summer School sessions began in June 1962 and these various activities became the foundation of the academic program of TWI in which believers were taught how to research God's Word for themselves.
It wasn't TWI's "program" just to shoot someone through a class and then "send them back home" to fend for themselves. That may be the difference. Perhaps that was Leonard's program of "outreach" but not TWI's. Did people take PFAL then go back home and "fend" for themselves? Very likely, I'd even say definately, and that's really the negative thing that I see. People get a little head knowlege of God's Word and of spiritual things (doesn't really matter where they got it) and then think they know it all. But it wasn't TWI's fault that was the program those people choose for themselves. One might expect that from those young in the faith, as people young in the faith haven't learned how to continue so they drop off. Many of them are still around too and I run into them all the time. They want you to answer all these "spiritual questions" that they have - they want you to "take" their "spiritual" requests.
Quit taking requests from the quitters because true understanding of spiritual matters only comes to one who continues in the Word of God and in the faith and in the things of God - not to quitters who quit. The only thing that is annointed are God's people, and He doesn't annoint quitters. Gods' people aren't quitters if they truly are God's! Quitters aren't annointed - their disqualified. That's true in every category and phase of lfe. You quit and you're disqualified!
But all these "quitters" on the Word of God and in the faith and in the things of God want us to think they're qualified to lead people? Give us a break!
And you do bring up a very good point WTH...How many churches held classes, revivals, seminars etcc...and left the 'new' Christians to then go home and 'flounder' with their good news ?? Just that alone left many more disappointed, hurt, confused, bitter Christians than Vp ever did I'm sure !
There was rarely any follow up etc...the 'need' for follow up is more of a recent realisation amongst the Christian circles.
And no WW, I don't think I have ever defended what he did to other people, but I do defend the Word that he produced.
As far as impacting mainstream Christianity, I would say getting into Time Magazine might almost qualify, wouldn't you ??
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Nottawayfer
I stopped SITing when I left twi for the most part. I don't feel like I have missed out on one thing. If anything, I feel more at peace with my relationship with Him. SIT was overrated in TWI IMHO :). It was a mindless way to make yourself feel spiriatual. But it wasn't a relationship with Him. A relationship is two-way communication. We were so focused on doctrine and walking erect in TWI that we forgot all about a relationship with Him. It was great coming back in to His arms when I left TWI.
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Oakspear
However, does a nice place and a slick presentation guarantee that what is being presented is any good? I would say not. Does a shabby store front and a less-than-professional presentation indicate that anything is lacking? Doubt it.
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Belle
Actually, the best restaurants I've ever eaten at have been Mom & Pop's that don't look like much from the outside.
Places like TWI, The Crystal Cathedral and all these other palatial, sterile, showy places feel just like whited sepulchres to me. Lots of glitter but no substance and certainly no love for God nor his people. Just love of money, imo.... <_<
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Bramble
I think appearances were way overrated in TWI. Slick, expensive, attractive...maintaining the look, the illusion of perfection and abundance, was more important than what went on inside hearts and lives.
It translated into people's lives. How many people kept others at a distance so they could maintain thier perfect illusion? Especially leaders.
I do not trust those that put huge emphasis on appearance anymore. Nor have I ever seen a church or religious building that wasn't kept up.
A food pantry in the old part of downtown maintained by a church, doesn't have to look like a 5 star hotel to do the job.
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WordWolf
Allan:
"V.P. is still the man that put it all together, made sense of it, "
Skyrider, replying to Allan:
"Not according to Mrs. Wierwille's book, Born Again to Serve." She gives explicit details of vpw's excitement in finding B.G. Leonard's ministry and heading up to Calgary, Alberta Canada. And, much more than just syllabus learning..........B.G. spent time with his students on the operation of the manifestations."
WordWolf, replying to Allan:
"'Put it all together'. Actually, the early forms were not 'put together.'
They were Leonard's class with vpw's name on them."
WhatTheHey, replying to WordWolf:
"I would need to ask you to clarify and qualify that statement. What exactly are you implying by saying the early forms were not 'put together'?"
Oakspear, replying to WhatTheHey:
"I'm sure that WordWolf will be along to clarify, but while the film/video class that most of us took was different in many aspects from Leonard's class, including gifts vs. manifestations, there is much to suggest that the original class that Wierwille taught was actually Leonard's class."
WordWolf now responds to WhatTheHey:
Actually, my answer was in the part of the SAME SENTENCE WTH quoted.
vpw's original class was NOT original. It was BG Leonard's class with vpw's name on it.
vpw took BG Leonard's class (June 28-July 15, 1953.)
October 1953, vpw told BG Leonard he wanted to teach Leonard's class locally
on a one-time basis. LEONARD's class, as he told Leonard.
Leonard agreed.
vpw ran the class, and sent Leonard a photograph of Leonard's class, which sits
in Leonard's photo album to this very day.
What vpw told the STUDENTS was that this was vpw's class on
"RECEIVING THE HOLY SPIRIT TODAY". (Later changed to pfal.)
NO mention of Leonard or Leonard's class.
Even if it's not obvious to you that there would be no time to completely change
Leonard's class, the testimony of those who had sat thru Leonard's class and
THEN vpw's class might mean something.
vpw counted those who had taken Leonard's class in the June 28-July 15 class
as ALREADY GRADS of the "Receiving the Holy Spirit Today" class.
Therefore, vpw, by several measures, called them
the same class with 2 different names.
Therefore, vpw did not "put it together."
He put his own name on Leonard's class.
=======
Since you're also haggling over prices, I should add the following:
Yes, Leonard's class is more than you paid for the pfal foundational class.
Of course, Leonard's class was taken by vpw and padded out to
ALL THREE pfal levels-foundational, intermediate and advanced.
Thus, you're comparing Leonard's price for all three against the price
for ONE, which is an inequitable measure. When you compare Leonard's
price against ALL THREE, Leonard's appears to be an incredible bargain.
Especially for those people who were talked into paying $100 or $200
for pfal...
=========
Leonard also set his class as a supplement to existing ministries. He intended
for people to bless their normal ministries after taking his class. Leonard never
set up a structure and church (nor did he expect 10% of their income or
anything else...)
Now, those who think that any class is not a good thing, they can dislike Leonard's
class consistently.
Others of us don't think a class is automatically right or automatically wrong.
We DO object to making a class into something other than a tool-
turning it into a Rite of Passage and a REQUIREMENT is FAR different from
what Leonard did.
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allan w.
What I (originally) meant in 'putting it all together' was Vp taking the 'good' stuff out of Leonards class, taking the 'dead are not alive' from somewhere else (or was that in Leonards class as well)?, Jesus Christ is not God (I doubt that was taken from Leonards, Stiles or bullinger), etc..etc..
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WordWolf
I responded to that possible meaning.
I consider that more of a cut-and-paste job, and not the seamless integration
some people keep suggesting.
My followup response was only because WTH insisted on making an issue of it.
========
As for the dead, I keep pointing out that was from Bullinger.
"Are the Dead Alive Now?" was from "the Rich Man and Lazarus: an Intermediate State?"
complete with question in the title.
Plus Bullinger's work on "Saul and the Witch at Endor."
Some quotes that have been posted from Leonard's work have suggested
the basic idea undergirding JCNG was taken from Leonard's books as well.
So far, the only thing I've yet to see a source for is the term "manifestation"
replacing "gift". Even parts of his supposed biography seem to have been
taken from others!
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dmiller
Here is Bullinger's THE RICH MAN AND LAZARUS (should you care to read it.) :)
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skyrider
When wierwille "put it all together"......cut and pasting material from Leonard, Stiles, Bullinger and others.... wasn't the pfal class (originally) run with intermediate material as well? Students were expected to SIT, interpret and phrophecy at the end of this 15-session class....and, a couple of segments were shelved and played at a later date because they added confusion and consternation. Many just weren't ready for the segment on "The Unforgiveable Sin" and "The Day Jesus Christ Died." (??)
Even after wierwille "put it all together"........it was adapted and re-adapted. And, as early as 1975/76, there was lots of backroom talk in getting a better class out there.....after PFAL '77 was filmed. Didn't happen, though......but that was one of the intents of filming during that event.
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Oakspear
Initially, the PFAL class had all three Foundational, Intermediate & Advanced combined into one. Later the "Advanced" was separated out. Still later, after PFAL was committed to tape, the "Intermediate" was separated into its own class.
Yeah, eventually PFAL became, depite its origins, different than all its "parents", but I believe that the assumption that Wierwille combined or distilled or cut & pasted "the good stuff", or got rid of the "in-acrit"
stuff is unwarranted. Many of us who hold this opinion apparently judge the truth or accuracy of what's in these precurser classes and books based on what Wierwille taught, not on an independent analysis and study of either material.
...and to correct what I said in an earlier post. I lumped Leonard's class in with Wierwille's in an "all classes are bad" category. I had forgotten that Leonard's class was just that: a class. It was designed to teach a few things, then send people back to their home churches. Wierwille's class was the very foundation of his ministry: 2 different things.
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skyrider
Yeah.......2 different things, totally. :)
And, didn't Leonard stay at the helm of running these classes where he was available to instruct and guide the new student into demonstrating God's power....praying/ministering to others??
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MountainTopCO
After VP had established his flock, he would find other peoples material that contradicted the teachings of mainstream churches. He would make these critically important doctrines (any other doctrines invite devil spirits) thus keeping you from going anywhere else but Da Vunderful Vay. Trapped with no were to go making it next to impossible to leave. Well, until things started falling apart.
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allan w.
Must have been 'mere coincidence' that what VP took from everywhere else WAS/IS scintillatingly close to the purportedly 'original God breathed Word' ??!!
IMO (of course) !!
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Belle
How do people reconcile all the lies of vee pee, including the fact that he claimed to be teaching the Bible like it hadn't been taught since the first century with the fact that the things he taught were plagarized and stolen from so many other people who were way before his time?
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skyrider
Allan....not quite sure that I'd call wierwille's "absent Christ" doctrine scintillatingly close to the purportedly original God-breathed Word.
In fact, that doctrine ALONE.......spun a whole web of idolatrous doctrines.
<_<
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dmiller
Belle -- that is an EXCELLENT point. Never did put *that two and two* together.
Thank you. :)
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WordWolf
Yes.
First of all, his classes were NOT for the new person as a rite of passage.
If you went in to them, it was expected you were already speaking in tongues.
Second of all, yes, they were a class, not the gateway to an organization.
Graduates went back to their own groups-which was what was expected.
(pfal was expected to be the first step in a lifetime of twi involvement twice a week plus events.)
Third of all, Leonard was among the students, instructing not only intellectually,
but in power and by example.
So, the live Leonard coverage on, say, healing was a LOT more "hands on" than, say
the live vpw coverage on healing. (That was more just discussions.)
This is not that hard if you're really good with the particular subject.
(Before taking the Advanced class, I was already figuring out what would be
covered concerning the "information" manifestations, and those can actually
be hands-on if the instructor is that conversant in the subject.)
So, Leonard's class was as much lecture as "practice-session" for ALL NINE
instead of just three of them, rather than talking about all nine and practicing THREE.
A determined refusal to face the question,
dismissing the questioner with a well-timed ad hominem attack,
and concerted efforts to change the subject.
That's judging from experience here.
If it all was close, then that would be noteworthy.
The foundation for all 3 levels was the foundational class.
The foundation for the foundational class was Session 1.
Session 1 was focused on the "LAW" of believing.
This session was a failure, since there is no such thing as a "LAW" of believing,
neither as stated in the class, nor the syllabus, nor the books.
Since vpw was not getting his information directly from God as he claimed,
it is no surprise that his entire class was based on error.
(Later sessions built on it, and some of the material later introduced was
pretty good, but some of it was not.)
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dmiller
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allan w.
Maybe the point really is Belle and Wordwolf and Dave that 'some of us' don't really care too much how, why, where, when 'it' came together, but are 'very blessed' that it did.
As someone said before, literally tens of thousands got to hear this 'angle' on the word and that very likely would not have happened under Leonards ministry.
Leonards, Bullingers, Stiles etc...MAY have stayed as 'just another theological alternative' to mainstream Christianity.
VP at the height of his ministry was by all accounts really impacting mainstream Christianity. I believe that this part was 'of God'...what happened after was VP and others fault.
To sum it all up and hopefully not being too crude, "it's a bit like examining the vagina and the actual sex act to determine 'how' the baby happened, instead of focusing on the baby" !!
I think I need my coffee !!
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WordWolf
There's several problems with that.
One,
you received blessings at the COST of some of your family in Christ receiving curses.
Some of the women, especially, who crossed vpw's path were not
"blessed" by the experience.
Two,
the integrity of a man's word is at the heart of ANY relationship he is in,
whether it be personal, business, casual, and so on.
When dealing with someone who claims to represent God, he should exemplify,
as best as he is able, godly practices-and at the very least not commit the evils Christians are
told to flee. If he is found to intentionally lie, intentionally take the money for God's work
and squander it on his vices, to treat all the women in the ministry as belonging to him,
then he CLEARLY demonstrates that he is unfit to represent God Almighty.
So, to say "It's ok for a man speaking for God to lie, rape and embezzle" is to deny
the contents OF the Word of God, which warn against such things.
Of course, no one ever says it's ALWAYS ok-
it's always "Well, MY MOG gets a SPECIAL EXEMPTION-
if anyone ELSE does it, it's a horrible crime...."
The growth in Leonard's ministry was severely hampered once he began dealing with thewound vpw dealt him by stealing and plagiarizing his work. If not, HUNDREDS of thousands
might have received the SUPERIOR training in his group.
vp at the height of his ministry affected tens of thousands of Christians.
That's not even a blip on the radar of "mainstream Christianity."
And that was 1979-1982.
(It's significant to the people affected, for good or ill, but that's independent of numbers,
and true for 10 or 10 billion.)
After that was vpw dying.
BEFORE that was vpw committing various crimes and covering his tracks brilliantly,
as if he was well aware what he was doing was wrong, and that he could go to jail
if reports were filed. (lcm was caught, as if he wasn't aware what he was doing was
wrong and didn't really cover his tracks.)
The REAL strength of the group was always locally, among Christians who cared,
starting with the House of Acts and running thru many non-titled Christians who bled out
their lives for God and their fellow Christians. THEIR lives and actions were "of God."
vpw could talk a good talk, and could SAY he was spending his life for them,
but he lived a cushy existence, with short work-days, luxuries, and few, if any,
actual EXPECTATIONS to fill. Once the classes were on tape, he could literally just
delegate every piece of work to someone else, and stand around looking important.
It's interesting to note the use of a sexual analogy when someone's trying to belittle
the crimes of a known rapist. It strikes me as mildly ironic.
Was is done subconsciously-a Freudian slip?
Was it meant as a grim joke?
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mstar1
ALL accounts?
Whose accounts were those?
How did I miss those? I'd love to see them.
I have seen mainstream Christian groups that have described him as 'heretica'l or as a 'false teacher' or at the very best 'controversial', but most dont mention him at all-- and as far as I know certainly werent being "impacted" by him, other than an occasional group that would offer cult counselling.
I could be wrong...
How about a few links (not all) from just some or even a few of these mainstream Christian sources that were impacted by his ministry so much.
Thanks-
I'll certainly be looking forward to reading those
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What The Hey
2. The PFAL class didn't become the focus of TWI's outreach until 1956. It was in Van Wert where VPW published the first edition of Receiving the Holy Spirit Today. He also wrote numerous booklets, pamphlets and monographs which during those years laid the groundwork for over 400 magazine and newspaper aticles and eleven major Biblical research works. It wouldn't surprise me if many things changed from what was originally taught in that first class up until the PFAL class being TWI's focus of outreach in 1956.
I guess the question still is though: Does the "focus of outreach" of a particular man's ministry mean their class is annointed? I believe it was Oakspear who stated:
Well I agree with you, but I really don't see either one as a negative thing. PFAL was intended to be the focus of outreach for TWI in 1956. Yet it was during the 60's when VPW and Mrs. VPW conducted summer school classes, Way Family Camps, and other various Advances in the BRC. Aside from live PFAL, these other activities were the greatest opportunities for PFAL grads to become rooted in God's Word. Summer School sessions began in June 1962 and these various activities became the foundation of the academic program of TWI in which believers were taught how to research God's Word for themselves.
It wasn't TWI's "program" just to shoot someone through a class and then "send them back home" to fend for themselves. That may be the difference. Perhaps that was Leonard's program of "outreach" but not TWI's. Did people take PFAL then go back home and "fend" for themselves? Very likely, I'd even say definately, and that's really the negative thing that I see. People get a little head knowlege of God's Word and of spiritual things (doesn't really matter where they got it) and then think they know it all. But it wasn't TWI's fault that was the program those people choose for themselves. One might expect that from those young in the faith, as people young in the faith haven't learned how to continue so they drop off. Many of them are still around too and I run into them all the time. They want you to answer all these "spiritual questions" that they have - they want you to "take" their "spiritual" requests.
Quit taking requests from the quitters because true understanding of spiritual matters only comes to one who continues in the Word of God and in the faith and in the things of God - not to quitters who quit. The only thing that is annointed are God's people, and He doesn't annoint quitters. Gods' people aren't quitters if they truly are God's! Quitters aren't annointed - their disqualified. That's true in every category and phase of lfe. You quit and you're disqualified!
But all these "quitters" on the Word of God and in the faith and in the things of God want us to think they're qualified to lead people? Give us a break!
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allan w.
And you do bring up a very good point WTH...How many churches held classes, revivals, seminars etcc...and left the 'new' Christians to then go home and 'flounder' with their good news ?? Just that alone left many more disappointed, hurt, confused, bitter Christians than Vp ever did I'm sure !
There was rarely any follow up etc...the 'need' for follow up is more of a recent realisation amongst the Christian circles.
And no WW, I don't think I have ever defended what he did to other people, but I do defend the Word that he produced.
As far as impacting mainstream Christianity, I would say getting into Time Magazine might almost qualify, wouldn't you ??
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dmiller
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