Even assuming that A) The 'deliverence' took place & B) The numbers are accurate
I can tell you from experience that TWI pads the numbers. as a returning WOW, I heard the woman who was responsible for pushing WOWs into the Corps embellish our accomplishments to the RoA attendees of 1992 in order to recruit more WOWs to repeat the cycle. she quoted the words of PFAL graduates, but in at least 2 cases they were people who took the class and never came back and the words were out of context. those people meant nothing to TWI, they didn't get the deliverance TWI said they did. all that mattered was getting the next round of folks out WOW to recruit more people in via PFAL.
throughout my history with TWI, I got more out of reading the works of the folks VPW apparently stole his material from. the classes frankly bored me to tears, except for the advanced class which was a horrible experience all around. the last class I attended, the new dry toast family class, was so offensive it helped me get one foot out the door.
After the fellowship, a new person was introduced to me. "Rxx has had the class a lot."
Newbie,"How many times have you taken the class?"
I replied, "Over 20 times now."
Newbie, "You'd think you'd learned it by now."
The implication was that I had failed it 19 times. All the grads within earshot started laughing hysterically.
There was a point, when I had had the FC about 7 times, and the AC twice, I actually thought it would be neat to have the AC times more than the foundational. Who could afford it and the ROA? The travel, lodging were usually as much if not more than the class (I was in TEXAS and NEVADA)
Yeah look, sorry everyone, silly me...I'll try to to remember to keep things 'negative' about VP and his classes...my apologies if I've caused anyone unnecessary palpitations !!
Yeah look, sorry everyone, silly me...I'll try to to remember to keep things 'negative' about VP and his classes...my apologies if I've caused anyone unnecessary palpitations !!
You're entitled to your own opinion.
You're welcome to post it here.
We're welcome to disagree.
Don't think anyone here's immune to it. Do you think I ever have a day immune
to disagreement? Frankly, the freedom to disagree often helps sharpen my
ability to communicate. If I can phrase my positions with documentation,
clarity, and good manners, I get fewer disagreements.
Ever learn something from the people disagreeing with you?
Yeah look, sorry everyone, silly me...I'll try to to remember to keep things 'negative' about VP and his classes...my apologies if I've caused anyone unnecessary palpitations !!
It's one thing to be ignorant.......but spinning vpw's credentials, when the facts are clearly known, is something else.
Yeah look, sorry everyone, silly me...I'll try to to remember to keep things 'negative' about VP and his classes...my apologies if I've caused anyone unnecessary palpitations !!
Allan, this is an open forum - you're entitled to voice your opinion. And I would prefer that you always be honest in your posts. Your opinions don't bother me at all. What is frustrating to me is when someone comes on GSC and poses as someone else or is not upfront with where they're coming from. That is such a waste of everyone's time - as people dialog with that person - it becomes more about exposing their hidden agenda instead of exploring an idea.
There's a requirement that we all be negative about Wierwille & his class? :o I think that there are positive things to be said, and that there were benefits to be had, but everything in context: the topic of this thread is that God did not ordain that his Word be taught via a "class". If someone thinks that he did, then it shouldn't be difficult to come up with biblical citations to back up that opinion. I think a better case can be made that in early Christianity, i.e. The Book of Acts, the gospel was learned by associating with other Christians and by observing their example and hearing what they taught, every day of their lives. There was no graduation, no attainment of ultimate knowledge. Christianity was a community, and could no more be learned from a syllabus or sitting in a seminar than a new baby can become a functioning adult part of a culture by a stint in kindergarten.
Just pulling this back to top and I'm going to wait for TBone to comment whether he was implying moi as being dishonest with a hidden agenda...I sure as heck hope not, seeing as I'm one of the few who has their actual name as their handle.
BTW..Acts 19:9 looks like a 2 year class to me, where the disciples graduated and then went out as ambassadors...!!
Do you think that Paul was saying anything different at his new location (the "school" of Tyrannus) than he was at his old hangout (the synagogue)?
It seems pretty apparent that Paul was operating within the standard Mediteranean cultural norm, i.e. going to a place where public discourse was allowed and encouraged, like a synagogue or marketplace, and speaking his peace, while engaging others in discussion and debate.
After three months in Ephesus, the synagogue wasn't as hospitable a place as it had been, few were believing and were bad-mouthing him.
"School" is not necessarily what we in modern times would call a school. It is translated from the Greek word σχολη, which means a place free from labor, where one has the leisure to learn, not not a place with a cirriculum, textbooks and a schedule.
Paul was going to a location where he could continue as he had been, without the opposition of the Jewish leaders that he had to deal with in the synagogue.
There is no indication that there was a "graduation" or anyone going out formally as "ambassadors", just that after two years of teaching all of Asia had heard what he had to say.
By the way, "Asia" is not "Asia Minor", now known as Turkey, as Wierwille stated in PFAL. Asia was a province, centered on Ephesus, that was only a small part of what we now call Asia Minor.
That's great Oaks...I'm just waitin' for TBone to 'turn up' and clarify his/her remarks insinuating that perhaps I am not 'upfront', am a 'liar' and have 'hidden agendas'.
Could it be TBone that what really 'frustrates' you is that there are/ were some of us that found the pfal class to be somewhat beneficial and are prepared to 'say so' ??
Allan W.----------I too found the PFAL class somewhat beneficial and am prepared to "say so".
However:
1.)Much of the material was already available elsewhere.
2.)The long term payment plan for participation was way (and I do mean WAY) too costly.
In my opinion, the PFAL class was like that first "free" hit of smack that ultimately extracts a price beyond comprehension.
Though the class hinted at academic growth if further participation ensued I never really saw this to be the case. The particular "training" program I was involved with was especially disappointing in this respect.
The hook had some inviting bait on it but in the end it was the hook and not the bait that so many found
That's great Oaks...I'm just waitin' for TBone to 'turn up' and clarify his/her remarks insinuating that perhaps I am not 'upfront', am a 'liar' and have 'hidden agendas'.
Could it be TBone that what really 'frustrates' you is that there are/ were some of us that found the pfal class to be somewhat beneficial and are prepared to 'say so' ??
Allan - my apologies!!!!!!!!!!!! I guess I wasn't clear - I thought I wouldn't mention names - But who I had in mind was another person that recently came on GSC [or actually an old timer with a new name - his poor grammar and lack of logic were terribly familiar - at least he could count to 3] and as the thread got rolling said he actually was posting for his mentor on MySpace....
...And it does not frustrate me that you and others have found the PFAL class somewhat beneficial. I could say the same thing for myself - I enjoyed a lot of the stuff from Bullinger -so I guess we'd have to get detailed on specific parts. :) ....Again - please accept my apology - I definitely do NOT classify you in the same category as the aforementioned poster. You appear to be upfront and I know what side of the PFAL divide you sit.
My saying that I prefer you always be honest in your posts was referring to your - I guess sarcastic comment - that you would remember to keep things negative about VP.
Yeah look, sorry everyone, silly me...I'll try to to remember to keep things 'negative' about VP and his classes...my apologies if I've caused anyone unnecessary palpitations !!
So the point I was making was that you should CONTINUE to be open, honest and upfront about your viewpoint. I admire your courage in coming to a website where your viewpoint on PFAL seems to be in the minority....Quite often it is a clearly stated viewpoint far different from mine that becomes a catalyst for me to re-think my ideas on something. Sometimes that may mean: I'm slowly changing my position on something, or maybe taking it to another level, or maybe expand my concept, or maybe indicating I need to look into it further, maybe confirming or validating a theory I already hold, etc....That - believe it or not Allan - was my motivation behind what I said to you. It is my humble opinion and hokey belief that when people are upfront and honest in their contributions on a thread - then all the participants will benefit from issues becoming clearer, learning, sharing, etc.
... Actually, the early forms were not "put together." They were Leonard's class with vpw's name on them.
I would need to ask you to clarify and qualify that statement. What exactly are you implying by saying the early forms were not "put together"? B.G. Leonard taught Gifts of the Spirit. For the most part his books and bible classes still teach Gifts of the Spirit and one can take his "Full Bible Courses" which individually range anywhere from $100 - $130 a pop (per suggested donation). Apparently one doesn't get a "Complete Bible Study" with Leonard's "Full Bible Courses" - unlike PFAL. That donation can quickly add up to be quite a bit of change for the beginning bible student - more than the PFAL donation ever was - which was what - $200 or $250 at one point in time? One could take three or more of B.G. Leonard's $100 -$130 "Full Bible Courses" and they still would not get everything that is covered in the foundational PFAL class!
On the other hand, VPW taught manifestations of the Spirit [the Greek word is: pneumatikos for the word "spiritual" in 1 Cor. 12:1 while the word gifts is in italics. Pneumatikos meaning: "that which belongs to, is determined by, influenced by or proceeds from the Spirit"] and not Gifts of the Spirit in PFAL. [p.162 of RTHST.] VPW also goes to great lengths in PFAL to clarify the difference between a "gift" and a "manifestation" - namely there is only "one gift" (holy spirit) but nine manifestation of that one gift. I can't say with any authority what Leonard taught on this particular verse: 1 Cor. 12:1, as I never took Leonard's "Gifts" of the Spirit class.
While I agree VPW may have taken B.G. Leonard's Gifts of the Spirit class at one point in time, VPW did not teach Gifts of the Spirit like B.G. Leonard did/still does. While there may be things in PFAL that are similar to Leonard's Gifts of the Spirit class (I am not denying that could be possible) making the blanket statement that this was "Leonards class" with VPW's name on it is a fallacy many people here apparently have.
I'm sure that WordWolf will be along to clarify, but while the film/video class that most of us took was different in many aspects from Leonard's class, including gifts vs. manifestations, there is much to suggest that the original class that Wierwille taught was actually Leonard's class.
the topic of this thread is that God did not ordain that his Word be taught via a "class
OK back on topic then. What does that also say about B.G Leonard's $100-$130 "Full Bible Courses"? (Well - Duh!)
David..yeah I know VP took money for the classes and abs and all, but you know what...when myself and Selina (and I can only speak for us and those we personally know), when we first visited h.q. and saw it's beauty and then the auditorium and everything else...it helped 'cement' the Word even further in our hearts.
I've seen churches and campuses that are run on a shoe string and others where people didn't give a damn about the presentation and then having met some of the people involved, I could see why...
Wayne Clapp did a recent teaching on "Consider your ways", really homed in on that kinda stuff.
The ministry Selina and myself are involved with is looking around right now for some type of campus to purchase. It won't be as 'grand' as any twi campus, but we sure will do our best to present it as an honourable offering before the Lord.
I think that there are positive things to be said, and that there were benefits to be had, but everything in context: the topic of this thread is that God did not ordain that his Word be taught via a "class". If someone thinks that he did, then it shouldn't be difficult to come up with biblical citations to back up that opinion. I think a better case can be made that in early Christianity, i.e. The Book of Acts, the gospel was learned by associating with other Christians and by observing their example and hearing what they taught, every day of their lives. There was no graduation, no attainment of ultimate knowledge. Christianity was a community, and could no more be learned from a syllabus or sitting in a seminar than a new baby can become a functioning adult part of a culture by a stint in kindergarten.
Well said, Oakspear........thanks.
For some, taking "the class" ....and especially the advanced class.....was like the attainment of ultimate knowledge and now, "all nine all the time."
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potato
I can tell you from experience that TWI pads the numbers. as a returning WOW, I heard the woman who was responsible for pushing WOWs into the Corps embellish our accomplishments to the RoA attendees of 1992 in order to recruit more WOWs to repeat the cycle. she quoted the words of PFAL graduates, but in at least 2 cases they were people who took the class and never came back and the words were out of context. those people meant nothing to TWI, they didn't get the deliverance TWI said they did. all that mattered was getting the next round of folks out WOW to recruit more people in via PFAL.
throughout my history with TWI, I got more out of reading the works of the folks VPW apparently stole his material from. the classes frankly bored me to tears, except for the advanced class which was a horrible experience all around. the last class I attended, the new dry toast family class, was so offensive it helped me get one foot out the door.
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YIdon'tgotochurch
Here's a funny incident.
After the fellowship, a new person was introduced to me. "Rxx has had the class a lot."
Newbie,"How many times have you taken the class?"
I replied, "Over 20 times now."
Newbie, "You'd think you'd learned it by now."
The implication was that I had failed it 19 times. All the grads within earshot started laughing hysterically.
There was a point, when I had had the FC about 7 times, and the AC twice, I actually thought it would be neat to have the AC times more than the foundational. Who could afford it and the ROA? The travel, lodging were usually as much if not more than the class (I was in TEXAS and NEVADA)
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allan w.
Yeah look, sorry everyone, silly me...I'll try to to remember to keep things 'negative' about VP and his classes...my apologies if I've caused anyone unnecessary palpitations !!
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WordWolf
You're entitled to your own opinion.
You're welcome to post it here.
We're welcome to disagree.
Don't think anyone here's immune to it. Do you think I ever have a day immune
to disagreement? Frankly, the freedom to disagree often helps sharpen my
ability to communicate. If I can phrase my positions with documentation,
clarity, and good manners, I get fewer disagreements.
Ever learn something from the people disagreeing with you?
I've done that plenty of times, especially here.
It's good for personal growth.
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skyrider
It's one thing to be ignorant.......but spinning vpw's credentials, when the facts are clearly known, is something else.
It's called.....deceiving yourself and others.
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T-Bone
Allan, this is an open forum - you're entitled to voice your opinion. And I would prefer that you always be honest in your posts. Your opinions don't bother me at all. What is frustrating to me is when someone comes on GSC and poses as someone else or is not upfront with where they're coming from. That is such a waste of everyone's time - as people dialog with that person - it becomes more about exposing their hidden agenda instead of exploring an idea.
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Oakspear
There's a requirement that we all be negative about Wierwille & his class? :o I think that there are positive things to be said, and that there were benefits to be had, but everything in context: the topic of this thread is that God did not ordain that his Word be taught via a "class". If someone thinks that he did, then it shouldn't be difficult to come up with biblical citations to back up that opinion. I think a better case can be made that in early Christianity, i.e. The Book of Acts, the gospel was learned by associating with other Christians and by observing their example and hearing what they taught, every day of their lives. There was no graduation, no attainment of ultimate knowledge. Christianity was a community, and could no more be learned from a syllabus or sitting in a seminar than a new baby can become a functioning adult part of a culture by a stint in kindergarten.
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allan w.
Just wondering what you're 'implying' there TBone...someone posting as 'someone else' and not being 'upfront' ?? Is it me frustrating you ??
BTW..Acts 19:9 looks like a 2 year class to me, where the disciples graduated and then went out as ambassadors...!!
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allan w.
Just pulling this back to top and I'm going to wait for TBone to comment whether he was implying moi as being dishonest with a hidden agenda...I sure as heck hope not, seeing as I'm one of the few who has their actual name as their handle.
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Oakspear
It seems pretty apparent that Paul was operating within the standard Mediteranean cultural norm, i.e. going to a place where public discourse was allowed and encouraged, like a synagogue or marketplace, and speaking his peace, while engaging others in discussion and debate.
After three months in Ephesus, the synagogue wasn't as hospitable a place as it had been, few were believing and were bad-mouthing him.
"School" is not necessarily what we in modern times would call a school. It is translated from the Greek word σχολη, which means a place free from labor, where one has the leisure to learn, not not a place with a cirriculum, textbooks and a schedule.
Paul was going to a location where he could continue as he had been, without the opposition of the Jewish leaders that he had to deal with in the synagogue.
There is no indication that there was a "graduation" or anyone going out formally as "ambassadors", just that after two years of teaching all of Asia had heard what he had to say.
By the way, "Asia" is not "Asia Minor", now known as Turkey, as Wierwille stated in PFAL. Asia was a province, centered on Ephesus, that was only a small part of what we now call Asia Minor.
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allan w.
That's great Oaks...I'm just waitin' for TBone to 'turn up' and clarify his/her remarks insinuating that perhaps I am not 'upfront', am a 'liar' and have 'hidden agendas'.
Could it be TBone that what really 'frustrates' you is that there are/ were some of us that found the pfal class to be somewhat beneficial and are prepared to 'say so' ??
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Oakspear
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waysider
Allan W.----------I too found the PFAL class somewhat beneficial and am prepared to "say so".
However:
1.)Much of the material was already available elsewhere.
2.)The long term payment plan for participation was way (and I do mean WAY) too costly.
In my opinion, the PFAL class was like that first "free" hit of smack that ultimately extracts a price beyond comprehension.
Though the class hinted at academic growth if further participation ensued I never really saw this to be the case. The particular "training" program I was involved with was especially disappointing in this respect.
The hook had some inviting bait on it but in the end it was the hook and not the bait that so many found
to cause the pain they felt.
Just my opinion.
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potato
well put, waysider.
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T-Bone
Allan - my apologies!!!!!!!!!!!! I guess I wasn't clear - I thought I wouldn't mention names - But who I had in mind was another person that recently came on GSC [or actually an old timer with a new name - his poor grammar and lack of logic were terribly familiar - at least he could count to 3] and as the thread got rolling said he actually was posting for his mentor on MySpace....
...And it does not frustrate me that you and others have found the PFAL class somewhat beneficial. I could say the same thing for myself - I enjoyed a lot of the stuff from Bullinger -so I guess we'd have to get detailed on specific parts. :) ....Again - please accept my apology - I definitely do NOT classify you in the same category as the aforementioned poster. You appear to be upfront and I know what side of the PFAL divide you sit.
My saying that I prefer you always be honest in your posts was referring to your - I guess sarcastic comment - that you would remember to keep things negative about VP.
So the point I was making was that you should CONTINUE to be open, honest and upfront about your viewpoint. I admire your courage in coming to a website where your viewpoint on PFAL seems to be in the minority....Quite often it is a clearly stated viewpoint far different from mine that becomes a catalyst for me to re-think my ideas on something. Sometimes that may mean: I'm slowly changing my position on something, or maybe taking it to another level, or maybe expand my concept, or maybe indicating I need to look into it further, maybe confirming or validating a theory I already hold, etc....That - believe it or not Allan - was my motivation behind what I said to you. It is my humble opinion and hokey belief that when people are upfront and honest in their contributions on a thread - then all the participants will benefit from issues becoming clearer, learning, sharing, etc.
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What The Hey
I would need to ask you to clarify and qualify that statement. What exactly are you implying by saying the early forms were not "put together"? B.G. Leonard taught Gifts of the Spirit. For the most part his books and bible classes still teach Gifts of the Spirit and one can take his "Full Bible Courses" which individually range anywhere from $100 - $130 a pop (per suggested donation). Apparently one doesn't get a "Complete Bible Study" with Leonard's "Full Bible Courses" - unlike PFAL. That donation can quickly add up to be quite a bit of change for the beginning bible student - more than the PFAL donation ever was - which was what - $200 or $250 at one point in time? One could take three or more of B.G. Leonard's $100 -$130 "Full Bible Courses" and they still would not get everything that is covered in the foundational PFAL class!
On the other hand, VPW taught manifestations of the Spirit [the Greek word is: pneumatikos for the word "spiritual" in 1 Cor. 12:1 while the word gifts is in italics. Pneumatikos meaning: "that which belongs to, is determined by, influenced by or proceeds from the Spirit"] and not Gifts of the Spirit in PFAL. [p.162 of RTHST.] VPW also goes to great lengths in PFAL to clarify the difference between a "gift" and a "manifestation" - namely there is only "one gift" (holy spirit) but nine manifestation of that one gift. I can't say with any authority what Leonard taught on this particular verse: 1 Cor. 12:1, as I never took Leonard's "Gifts" of the Spirit class.
While I agree VPW may have taken B.G. Leonard's Gifts of the Spirit class at one point in time, VPW did not teach Gifts of the Spirit like B.G. Leonard did/still does. While there may be things in PFAL that are similar to Leonard's Gifts of the Spirit class (I am not denying that could be possible) making the blanket statement that this was "Leonards class" with VPW's name on it is a fallacy many people here apparently have.
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What The Hey
OK back on topic then. What does that also say about B.G Leonard's $100-$130 "Full Bible Courses"? (Well - Duh!)
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Oakspear
I'm sure that WordWolf will be along to clarify, but while the film/video class that most of us took was different in many aspects from Leonard's class, including gifts vs. manifestations, there is much to suggest that the original class that Wierwille taught was actually Leonard's class.
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dmiller
What the Hey and Allan -- howdy. :)
You both made a coupla good points -----
1) Docvic put it all together;
2) Docvic taught manifestations, not gifts.
Both statements are just as true as the air I breathe --- BUT ---
air (especially these days) tends to be polluted, and so were his methods.
He surely taught manifestations instead of gifts -- but where did he get it?
He *put it all together* -- but where did he get it??
This point has been hashed and re-hashed ad naseum.
Docvic took teachings from other ministries,
He *made them his own*, he *mastered them*,
and then copyrighted them as HIS work.
He wasn't honest. He copyrighted other folk's research, and work.
Now -- don't get me wrong -- I remember as well as you do,
how he said he learned from so and so, and so and so, and so and so.
Big deal.
Did all of the *so and so's* receive monetary remuneration for the work they did,
that he used in his *classes*, and made big bucks off of??
I don't think so. He took their work, and said it was his.
Docvic was a thief. He offered us stolen goods, and we paid *top dollar* for them.
Meebe we should liken him to Robin Hood --
stealing from the rich, to give to the poor.
For all his *noble motives*, Robin Hood was a thief.
And he wore twi green as well. :(
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allan w.
Apology accepted TBone !
David..yeah I know VP took money for the classes and abs and all, but you know what...when myself and Selina (and I can only speak for us and those we personally know), when we first visited h.q. and saw it's beauty and then the auditorium and everything else...it helped 'cement' the Word even further in our hearts.
I've seen churches and campuses that are run on a shoe string and others where people didn't give a damn about the presentation and then having met some of the people involved, I could see why...
Wayne Clapp did a recent teaching on "Consider your ways", really homed in on that kinda stuff.
The ministry Selina and myself are involved with is looking around right now for some type of campus to purchase. It won't be as 'grand' as any twi campus, but we sure will do our best to present it as an honourable offering before the Lord.
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skyrider
Well said, Oakspear........thanks.
For some, taking "the class" ....and especially the advanced class.....was like the attainment of ultimate knowledge and now, "all nine all the time."
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excathedra
who did / does "all nine all the time" i want to know
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WhiteDove
AHHHM :
Well since you asked. 
A cat they have nine lives too...........
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skyrider
ex.....this advanced class wayspeak was another one of their erroneous slogans. It raised too many questions and was later dropped from twi wayspeak.
No one walks with "all nine all the time".................
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