Right you are skyrider...Nowhere in the bible does it say "The class will lead you into all truth" nor does it say "By their class shall ye know them"...
Especially when their classes are knockoffs of other people's research and hard work.
We were supposed to be able ministers of the new testament...not Amway salesmen shaking people down for money to take a class.
maximum information in minimal amount of time....makes sense to me.
Or........maximum indoctrination.
There seems to be no "middle ground" in twi......no tempering of moderation. And, rather than setting forth a 10-hour foundational class to familiarize new people with basic biblical truths and principles..... it crosses those boundaries.
Of course, when one plays by their rules......you ain't a believer until you've taken their class.
I'd much rather learn at my own pace and as I need to and am ready to learn things. Ummmm.... I think it's called auxano growth - you know, that growth without compulsion kind of thing.
Then, IF there's a class on that particular subject and it doesn't monopolize my time, I might consider taking it. Otherwise, I'm happy to get my needs met in other ways and with folks who don't base their opinion of me and my status on what classes I've taken. Seems to make life much nicer, more enjoyable and - GASP! - substantially overflowing in every way.
I remember the days at the ROA when people would ask you three questions:
1: What's your name?
2. Where are you from?
3. Which classes have you taken?
blech!!! I'm so glad my credentials aren't based on the classes I took. I remember people being introduced with the level of class they had taken. This is so and so, intermediate class grad. WTF was that???
I took my first advanced class at 22. I know for a fact that there were people more spiritually intune than I ever was at that age just because they lived a little more time on earth. Most 22 year olds are still pretty immature. Were people fully instructed? I don't think so. There was way too much information in a minimal amount of time. Don't get me started on those danged Advanced Class Grad weekends where we had to hear the forehead on video again and again. I really wanted to be spending my weekends doing other things. How much could sink in really? Enough to do some damage. If not, maybe God was protecting us from so much wrong.
Whenever you were introduced to another wayfer, the first thing eveybody wanted to know was "what classes have you taken?"...and..."how many times?"
A person who had taken the foudational class 12 times was perceived as more "spiritual" than someone who had only taken it 2 or 3 times...Likewise, if you had an advanced class nametag on, you could almost expect to hear the ooohs and ahhhs from the newbies. Nametags, announcing your twi status took the place of legitimate spirituality. Like so much of twi, people's opinions skimmed along the surface and true "spiritual understanding" was replaced with "class consciousness".
...and if you had a way corps nametag...watch out!
People's insecurities and egos were regularly fed with the superficial echelon of twi's class pecking order...Had Wierwille honestly wanted people to grow spiritually and become mature Christians, he would have eliminated nametags...but then again, his real agenda was to have everyone take their place in his self made power pyramid of false assumptions and ego driven control freaks. That way, he was the top bananna and had all the money and vices...
maximum conditioning in a fraction of the time it normally would take if you resorted to torture alone.
ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha sitting through that damn class again and again as a "grad" was the definition of torture ha ha ha ha ha ha
What the heck was the point of taking the foundational class over and over and over again?(Aside from the obvious maintaining a sense of self induced allegiance?)
I've posted on this before. People actually believed that some new enlightenment would be granted them each time they took the class. They thought they would see some kernal of truth that had been buried like a diamond. (and I am not absolving myself of guilt on this point either.)
It went so far as to opening classes with prayer for God to show us things we had never seen before.
Don't get me wrong, I Think God can and does open the eyes of our understanding in relation to His word.
"The class" is not His word per se, it's just one of millions of classes that man has constructed over his time on Earth.
The very idea that God would show us some hidden meaning in why the flowers were positioned where they were or why a certain facial expression was used is simply ludicrous.
It was simply one of countless Bible classes that have been produced for mass consumption though I'm pretty sure none of us had any way(other than revelation) of knowing the impact it would and does have on our lives.
What about Geer's Walking in God's power class and his suposside advanced class coming ? Apparently you have to have a stamped page 3 times in order to be eligiable to take the advanced class!!
Like my 19 yr old son said, It excludes a majority of people from hearing the word, He also told his father, who just left because of Geer that he does not feel he needs a class to teach him the word. He said He goes to a youth fellowhip on campus and he has God's word in his heart!!!!
What about Geer's Walking in God's power class and his suposside advanced class coming ? Apparently you have to have a stamped page 3 times in order to be eligiable to take the advanced class!!
Like my 19 yr old son said, It excludes a majority of people from hearing the word, He also told his father, who just left because of Geer that he does not feel he needs a class to teach him the word. He said He goes to a youth fellowhip on campus and he has God's word in his heart!!!!
Word Promotions uses a system much like the way did where you are required to take the preceding level classes a set number of times presumably to have a basis to build the next class on. One could argue that having sat through classes of this type similar but not identical that you could skip the boardwalk and go directly to go so to speak. I'd tend to agree with that in theory, yet their class their rules. Not unlike many classes, I think I needed to take math 1 before math 2 algebra before trigonometry and so on in school.
So what? that's life.
It excludes a majority of people from hearing the word
No it doesn't it makes them abide by the rules for taking the course much like most colleges do. They are free to take the class no one is excluding them. That's like saying they made me wear clothes to work so they excluded me from working....... :unsure:
David, you took the words right out of my fingers!
Methinks there was no dress code either. Man, those were the days!
Free learning, free food, free fellowship, free will..... ahhhhh.... no wonder folks grew so much so fast - they were allowed to do so at their own pace and without being exploited.
maximum information in minimal amount of time....makes sense to me.
Smacks with a sense of urgency that is required in every con job. The urgency was continued with the necessity of getting the "Word (class) Over the World" in a short period of time. Expanding the con. As with all con jobs they eventually unravel.
True learning takes time. True relationships take time. No need to rush it unless you have a con going.
So...have any of you got any other 'course' or 'class' or 'programme' or 'seminar' or 'sermon' that delivers that kind of info or understanding in that kind of time frame within the 'Christian community' ??
No offence but if some tend to think that a Greasespot type of forum is a legit way of learning, I don't think many of us would have gotten past , oh, lets say,... Genesis 1:1.
V.P. is still the man that put it all together, made sense of it, and got it heading somewhere..delivered MANY MANY people...so you weren't one of them ?? Too bad, that still leaves about 50,000 others ?? that did benefit from the class.
V.P. is still the man that put it all together, made sense of it, and got it heading somewhere.....
Not according to Mrs. Wierwille's book, Born Again to Serve." She gives explicit details of vpw's excitement in finding B.G. Leonard's ministry and heading up to Calgary, Alberta Canada. And, much more than just syllabus learning..........B.G. spent time with his students on the operation of the manifestations.
So...have any of you got any other 'course' or 'class' or 'programme' or 'seminar' or 'sermon' that delivers that kind of info or understandingin that kind of time frame within the 'Christian community' ??
No offence but if some tend to think that a Greasespot type of forum is a legit way of learning, I don't think many of us would have gotten past , oh, lets say,... Genesis 1:1.
V.P. is still the man that put it all together, made sense of it, and got it heading somewhere..delivered MANY MANY people...so you weren't one of them ?? Too bad, that still leaves about 50,000 others ?? that did benefit from the class.
You might want to qualify those terms a little bit better....Personally I would say much of the kind of information in VPW's class is erroneous and eclectic - and I'm glad it never made its way into mainstream Christianity - to pollute it!....Yeah, VPW is the man that stole the work of other people - and had the nerve to call it his own.
So...have any of you got any other 'course' or 'class' or 'programme' or 'seminar' or 'sermon' that delivers that kind of info or understanding in that kind of time frame within the 'Christian community' ??
JE Styles, BG Leanard and EW Bulinger come to mind all original sources for PFnAL.
V.P. is still the man that put it all together, made sense of it, and got it heading somewhere..delivered MANY MANY people...
All cons start with a benefit. It is how they end that makes it a con. JE Styles, BG Leanard and EW Bulinger ended with dignity and honor. Besure as an honorable Christian you give credit where credit is due.
So...have any of you got any other 'course' or 'class' or 'programme' or 'seminar' or 'sermon' that delivers that kind of info or understanding in that kind of time frame within the 'Christian community' ??
Let's see, how many assumptions can I find in one sentence?
A) A course/class/programme/seminar is REQUIRED.
Jesus didn't have one, neither did Paul/
B) pfal delivered info/understanding.
It also taught a specific mindset/ set of doctrines never to be questioned.
C) pfal was time-efficient.
As someone pointed out, we could have shaved off at least one segment per
night if we just trimmed out all the jokes. vpw padded it with insults to
other Christians, and old jokes.
No offence but if some tend to think that a Greasespot type of forum is a legit way of learning, I don't think many of us would have gotten past , oh, lets say,... Genesis 1:1.
I don't compare fish and bicycles,
and I don't compare the intents of pfal and the GSC.
It would show a lack of understanding to confuse them.
V.P. is still the man that put it all together, made sense of it, and got it heading somewhere..delivered MANY MANY people...so you weren't one of them ?? Too bad, that still leaves about 50,000 others ?? that did benefit from the class.
"Put it all together". Actually, the early forms were not "put together."
They were Leonard's class with vpw's name on them.
Adding Bullinger's and Stiles' books to them -without legally-required acknowledgements and
honoring of copyright- does not count as "putting it together"
to most of us.
What all of them taught/wrote ALREADY "made sense." vpw did a cut-and-paste."
Further, his later attempts to make them look less like the originals made LESS SENSE.
Leonard's definition of "word of knowledge" makes a LOT more sense than the much
wordier definition vpw made out of it.
"Got it heading somewhere."
Leonard was already being recognized in Canada AND the US.
vpw stealing his class entirely HOBBLED Leonard's class, since it produced
the result of Leonard holding his class more closely rather than risk more thieves
calling themselves "Christians" stealing it all and using it to carve their own
denominations. That's right-Leonard sent people back to their local groups
with enhanced knowledge, but vpw made his own denomination.
"Delivered many many people."
We have had separate discussions as to whether than can be applied to a class
that was stolen from others, and whose end-result was to chain them to a
group that told them what to think and do, and demanded 10% of their income.
Some say that the legitimate material was the bait on the hook.
"About 50,000 others?"
Actually, about that many may have finished the class worldwide.
For a worldwide group, that's almost nonexistent, divided over a 50-year period.
And whether or not they benefitted overall-I already addressed that.
My, my, so many misconceptions all squeezed into one paragraph!
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GrouchoMarxJr
Right you are skyrider...Nowhere in the bible does it say "The class will lead you into all truth" nor does it say "By their class shall ye know them"...
Especially when their classes are knockoffs of other people's research and hard work.
We were supposed to be able ministers of the new testament...not Amway salesmen shaking people down for money to take a class.
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allan w.
maximum information in minimal amount of time....makes sense to me.
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potato
maximum conditioning in a fraction of the time it normally would take if you resorted to torture alone.
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skyrider
Or........maximum indoctrination.
There seems to be no "middle ground" in twi......no tempering of moderation. And, rather than setting forth a 10-hour foundational class to familiarize new people with basic biblical truths and principles..... it crosses those boundaries.
Of course, when one plays by their rules......you ain't a believer until you've taken their class.
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Belle
I'd much rather learn at my own pace and as I need to and am ready to learn things. Ummmm.... I think it's called auxano growth - you know, that growth without compulsion kind of thing.
Then, IF there's a class on that particular subject and it doesn't monopolize my time, I might consider taking it. Otherwise, I'm happy to get my needs met in other ways and with folks who don't base their opinion of me and my status on what classes I've taken. Seems to make life much nicer, more enjoyable and - GASP! - substantially overflowing in every way.
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Nottawayfer
Very good points Belle! :)
I remember the days at the ROA when people would ask you three questions:
1: What's your name?
2. Where are you from?
3. Which classes have you taken?
blech!!! I'm so glad my credentials aren't based on the classes I took. I remember people being introduced with the level of class they had taken. This is so and so, intermediate class grad. WTF was that???
I took my first advanced class at 22. I know for a fact that there were people more spiritually intune than I ever was at that age just because they lived a little more time on earth. Most 22 year olds are still pretty immature. Were people fully instructed? I don't think so. There was way too much information in a minimal amount of time. Don't get me started on those danged Advanced Class Grad weekends where we had to hear the forehead on video again and again. I really wanted to be spending my weekends doing other things. How much could sink in really? Enough to do some damage. If not, maybe God was protecting us from so much wrong.
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GrouchoMarxJr
Ain't that the truth?...
Whenever you were introduced to another wayfer, the first thing eveybody wanted to know was "what classes have you taken?"...and..."how many times?"
A person who had taken the foudational class 12 times was perceived as more "spiritual" than someone who had only taken it 2 or 3 times...Likewise, if you had an advanced class nametag on, you could almost expect to hear the ooohs and ahhhs from the newbies. Nametags, announcing your twi status took the place of legitimate spirituality. Like so much of twi, people's opinions skimmed along the surface and true "spiritual understanding" was replaced with "class consciousness".
...and if you had a way corps nametag...watch out!
People's insecurities and egos were regularly fed with the superficial echelon of twi's class pecking order...Had Wierwille honestly wanted people to grow spiritually and become mature Christians, he would have eliminated nametags...but then again, his real agenda was to have everyone take their place in his self made power pyramid of false assumptions and ego driven control freaks. That way, he was the top bananna and had all the money and vices...
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skyrider
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excathedra
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Sushi
For those interested, you might want to investigate the "Stockholm Syndrome".
This is not meant to explain ALL instances of 'Waybrain', just offered as a possibility.
HERE!
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waysider
What the heck was the point of taking the foundational class over and over and over again?(Aside from the obvious maintaining a sense of self induced allegiance?)
I've posted on this before. People actually believed that some new enlightenment would be granted them each time they took the class. They thought they would see some kernal of truth that had been buried like a diamond. (and I am not absolving myself of guilt on this point either.)
It went so far as to opening classes with prayer for God to show us things we had never seen before.
Don't get me wrong, I Think God can and does open the eyes of our understanding in relation to His word.
"The class" is not His word per se, it's just one of millions of classes that man has constructed over his time on Earth.
The very idea that God would show us some hidden meaning in why the flowers were positioned where they were or why a certain facial expression was used is simply ludicrous.
It was simply one of countless Bible classes that have been produced for mass consumption though I'm pretty sure none of us had any way(other than revelation) of knowing the impact it would and does have on our lives.
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pinklady
What about Geer's Walking in God's power class and his suposside advanced class coming ? Apparently you have to have a stamped page 3 times in order to be eligiable to take the advanced class!!
Like my 19 yr old son said, It excludes a majority of people from hearing the word, He also told his father, who just left because of Geer that he does not feel he needs a class to teach him the word. He said He goes to a youth fellowhip on campus and he has God's word in his heart!!!!
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WhiteDove
Word Promotions uses a system much like the way did where you are required to take the preceding level classes a set number of times presumably to have a basis to build the next class on. One could argue that having sat through classes of this type similar but not identical that you could skip the boardwalk and go directly to go so to speak. I'd tend to agree with that in theory, yet their class their rules. Not unlike many classes, I think I needed to take math 1 before math 2 algebra before trigonometry and so on in school.
So what? that's life.
No it doesn't it makes them abide by the rules for taking the course much like most colleges do. They are free to take the class no one is excluding them. That's like saying they made me wear clothes to work so they excluded me from working....... :unsure:
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dmiller
Makes sense to me too -- if you're talking about the Sermon On the Mount.
Methinks that was one of the few *classes*, that were annointed.
(Ps -- the same Teacher taught the other annointed *classes* as well, and they didn't cost money,
nor were they three weeks long, and no one was required to wear nametags.
And ya didn't have to have taken any of the previous, to attend the one you were interested in.
Nor did they have to hear Beautiful Jerusalem while going to *class*!) ;)
And due to the diligence of one such attendee (mini-corps kid - who successfully budgeted for *snacks*),
all those who couldn't come up with snack money, were fed anyway.
Ahhhh -- I wish *classes* were run like they used to be!!
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Belle
David, you took the words right out of my fingers!
Methinks there was no dress code either.
Man, those were the days!
Free learning, free food, free fellowship, free will..... ahhhhh.... no wonder folks grew so much so fast - they were allowed to do so at their own pace and without being exploited.
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WhiteDove
Belle you forgot free love........ :blink:
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Belle
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MountainTopCO
Smacks with a sense of urgency that is required in every con job. The urgency was continued with the necessity of getting the "Word (class) Over the World" in a short period of time. Expanding the con. As with all con jobs they eventually unravel.
True learning takes time. True relationships take time. No need to rush it unless you have a con going.
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danteh1
And also there is one other thing Belle that was free also ----- freedom to ask all the questions that you wanted to without being reproved for it.
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allan w.
So...have any of you got any other 'course' or 'class' or 'programme' or 'seminar' or 'sermon' that delivers that kind of info or understanding in that kind of time frame within the 'Christian community' ??
No offence but if some tend to think that a Greasespot type of forum is a legit way of learning, I don't think many of us would have gotten past , oh, lets say,... Genesis 1:1.
V.P. is still the man that put it all together, made sense of it, and got it heading somewhere..delivered MANY MANY people...so you weren't one of them ?? Too bad, that still leaves about 50,000 others ?? that did benefit from the class.
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skyrider
Not according to Mrs. Wierwille's book, Born Again to Serve." She gives explicit details of vpw's excitement in finding B.G. Leonard's ministry and heading up to Calgary, Alberta Canada. And, much more than just syllabus learning..........B.G. spent time with his students on the operation of the manifestations.
Allan......you might want to check out her book.
:)
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T-Bone
You might want to qualify those terms a little bit better....Personally I would say much of the kind of information in VPW's class is erroneous and eclectic - and I'm glad it never made its way into mainstream Christianity - to pollute it!....Yeah, VPW is the man that stole the work of other people - and had the nerve to call it his own.
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MountainTopCO
JE Styles, BG Leanard and EW Bulinger come to mind all original sources for PFnAL.
All cons start with a benefit. It is how they end that makes it a con. JE Styles, BG Leanard and EW Bulinger ended with dignity and honor. Besure as an honorable Christian you give credit where credit is due.
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WordWolf
A) A course/class/programme/seminar is REQUIRED.
Jesus didn't have one, neither did Paul/
B) pfal delivered info/understanding.
It also taught a specific mindset/ set of doctrines never to be questioned.
C) pfal was time-efficient.
As someone pointed out, we could have shaved off at least one segment per
night if we just trimmed out all the jokes. vpw padded it with insults to
other Christians, and old jokes.
I don't compare fish and bicycles,
and I don't compare the intents of pfal and the GSC.
It would show a lack of understanding to confuse them.
"Put it all together". Actually, the early forms were not "put together."
They were Leonard's class with vpw's name on them.
Adding Bullinger's and Stiles' books to them -without legally-required acknowledgements and
honoring of copyright- does not count as "putting it together"
to most of us.
What all of them taught/wrote ALREADY "made sense." vpw did a cut-and-paste."
Further, his later attempts to make them look less like the originals made LESS SENSE.
Leonard's definition of "word of knowledge" makes a LOT more sense than the much
wordier definition vpw made out of it.
"Got it heading somewhere."
Leonard was already being recognized in Canada AND the US.
vpw stealing his class entirely HOBBLED Leonard's class, since it produced
the result of Leonard holding his class more closely rather than risk more thieves
calling themselves "Christians" stealing it all and using it to carve their own
denominations. That's right-Leonard sent people back to their local groups
with enhanced knowledge, but vpw made his own denomination.
"Delivered many many people."
We have had separate discussions as to whether than can be applied to a class
that was stolen from others, and whose end-result was to chain them to a
group that told them what to think and do, and demanded 10% of their income.
Some say that the legitimate material was the bait on the hook.
"About 50,000 others?"
Actually, about that many may have finished the class worldwide.
For a worldwide group, that's almost nonexistent, divided over a 50-year period.
And whether or not they benefitted overall-I already addressed that.
My, my, so many misconceptions all squeezed into one paragraph!
That's a rather compact style of writing, there!
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