Great post T-Bone. I have always thought God opened two doors to exit TWI so we wouldn't all lose "face" in front of our corps brothers and sisters. The first one was POP. After this was when all us hippies who had grown up and now were in our late 20s, and thirties all left together. It was like the Holy Spirit just whispered in everyone's heart at once - leave! We did.
The other was the Allan lawsuit. It too opened the door for the younger generation, who thought us "old hippies" had become cop-outs. They made their exodus then.
I agree, we can look at events, but the meltdown, I also believe was God's doing.
T-Bone, I agree, I didn't think as far out of the box as I should have. I felt I had so much invested in twi that it broke my heart, it felt like I was experiencing a divorce when it came down to departing.
I agree with what Goey wrote as well, but I still feel that there is more to twi's reason for demise than what's been stated here on this thread.
I went to a divorce care group after I left twi because I wanted marriage again, and I thought my views on marriage were skewed and messed up after my divorce and being in TWI. After going to the group a few times, the guy leading the group asked me from where I came. I told him TWI, but I had disassociated myself from them a few months prior. I told him I was divorced (had been for 7 years at that time), but I needed to get my thinking straight on marriage since I wanted to get married again. After a few more times in the group, he came to me and told me he felt I was there because I was divorcing TWI. Everything I brought up to share in the group was about my experieces in TWI. I felt the hurt and betrayal as if I had been divorced. That ah! ha! moment for me rang so true. I learned how to move on from the anger and betrayal I felt from TWI. It was the best thing I ever did for myself.
IMHO they turned the microphone on that Corps nite over to CG. That was a foolish error. To shell shock leadership like that on a Corps night, with no heads up? Big mistake! ! !
In POP, CG quotes VPW as saying the BOT had gotten caught up in "facts, facts, facts". I remember just a few years before that, we were all carrying brief cases to twig. We were 80's savy. Statistics were more important than taking care of people.
I can recall people I met, developed a great report with only to have them practically overwhelmed going to Twig. Then, there were people I developed a great working relationship or even (almost) a friendship and when leadership saw me later, they would ask me, " Why isn't so&so in the class?" Implying something was wrong with me if I spent time undersheparding them before they took the class.
Besides the overwhelming ego of CG throughout POP, the biggest problem was no specific direction or solution was provided. The end result. "Every man went to his own tent." Mouths were unstoppable and opinions were running more rampant than after Korea tested the bomb. There was a solution. No one wanted to hear it. Then or now.
That time period was weird and confusing...we were told to get back to God and the Word, but with so much other crap mixed into what we thought was doctrine how was that supposed to happen.
Ge*r was still resting on VP's laurels and told the in residence Corps to study PFAL and increase the work program, like some magical fix. Ge*r did not have the answers either.
I suppose Ge*r thought the BOT and LCM were going to lead us back to God, maybe he told them to read PFAL too! :(
IMHO they turned the microphone on that Corps nite over to CG. That was a foolish error. To shell shock leadership like that on a Corps night, with no heads up? Big mistake! ! !
In POP, CG quotes VPW as saying the BOT had gotten caught up in "facts, facts, facts". I remember just a few years before that, we were all carrying brief cases to twig. We were 80's savy. Statistics were more important than taking care of people.
I can recall people I met, developed a great report with only to have them practically overwhelmed going to Twig. Then, there were people I developed a great working relationship or even (almost) a friendship and when leadership saw me later, they would ask me, " Why isn't so&so in the class?" Implying something was wrong with me if I spent time undersheparding them before they took the class.
Besides the overwhelming ego of CG throughout POP, the biggest problem was no specific direction or solution was provided. The end result. "Every man went to his own tent." Mouths were unstoppable and opinions were running more rampant than after Korea tested the bomb. There was a solution. No one wanted to hear it. Then or now.
Are you saing things would have continued to be hunky dory if Geer hadn't read POP at Corps Week?
I think his reading POP was God's way of giving MANY a reason to exit the damn place. I wish the hell I would have stayed away when I left in 1990, but waybrain wouldn't let me do that. I went back to the sheethole ministry because the Geerite groups I attended were jokes.
Disclaimer - I was there for much if this but not in the back rooms. What follows is my opinion from my experiences 20 years ago. Take it as such.
The BOT didn't do much. The organization was never run with any degree of efficiency, but becaus of loyal drones it didn't need much oversight. They basically made up whatever work they wanted to make themselves feel important. VPW did the same.
He (VPW) was always blasting people for not doing what he expected and calling them not spiritual enough because they didn't figure it out in time or because what he wanted kept changing (this is a pattern with alcoholics) or because he spoke in such vague spiritual-sounding generalities that when it came to specifics he was unhappy. Wasted a TON of money re-doing many construction projects because of this kind of poor planning.
When he had given over the presidency to martindale, it soon began to bother him that he wasn't the center of attention and didn't in fact have a lot of power (because he'd given it away and then he got sick) and toward the end of his life he couldn't say this to anyone but Chris Geer (and I think Ralph Dubofsky as a back up). Geer was psychotic in his devotion and also in his ability to use vauge spiritual sounding language and that's where the POP came from.
For some reason, it hit a guilt nerve with the BOT and they signed it, and said they'd try to change. But because what they were supposed to change TO was pretty vague and because they were pretty stupid individuals with not much imagination, they were not able to please Geer any more than they pleased VPW. So he dicked with them a while then came back and had a big meeting with all the clergy (Nov 1986) he installed 2 more people on the board and eventually pulled the plug of his involvement.
As for it being a power grab - yes and no. Geer wanted to blow things up but he had several opportunities to grab power and he never did. The first was when he first read the POP - those guys would have been happy not just to sign his letter, but also let him lead them - but he didnt'.
Same thing after the clergy meeting. He could have lead a following then - but instead he went back to Gartmore and said basically 'You guys figure it out, but I'll be watching and tell you everytime you screw up"
He did, early on in this process, grab power in the form of ownership of the copyrights to VPW's material in Europe (or perhaps everywhere outside the US) but he could have been annointed king of the whole enchalada and for reasons I don't understand, he neglected to do it.
If he had done it, I think he would have been so extreme that the blow ups which happened later would have happened sooner but just my opinion.
As for what he accused the BOT of and they agreed to - it was basically very vague stuff like "Foresaking our father in the word" and similar descriptions that are open to so much interpretation as to be useless.
The BOT is a saloon in Nome, Alaska, which stands for "Board Of Trade", or to the locals, "Booty On Tap" because of the randy eskimo gals that hang out there like serious predators. I have spent many an evening there after spending 12 hours out in the sub zero weather working all day putting up free houses for the Eskimos.
Can't believe a single word of POP by Geer. The BOT at that time were just too stupid to eat that up...that gullible...and sign statements such as those to the document. Geer had been to close to VPW and knew him very well and the BOT knew that. Geer completely took advantage of his relationship with VPW and made up this story about Wierwille's last thoughts on TWI leadership. Had that document come from anyone else, the BOT would not have believed it. Afterward, even LCM admitted they were dupedand said they only originally believed it because it came from him. Anyone else, no. Martindale finally concluded it was a piece of fiction and Don Wierwille said it straight out "It was a lie...". I was there when Don said that.
It is not unusual to be emotionally attacked, then recover your senses. I disregard the signatures on the POP based on the grip Geer had over them at that time. While I believe the BOT was not doing right...Geer was much worse.
Had there been an ounce of direction offered between the reading in the last Corps night of April, and August, reading it at Corps week would have been fine. I was referring mainly to the reading in April (I was there). The leadership at Emporia went into shock. It was as though the stock market fell and they all lost their life's savings or they just witnessed 9/11.
I was in the 14th Corps. We were scheduled to arrive at HQ the next weekend to begin our final block of so called training and graduation. We weren't so sure we were going to graduate after that night. Not such a big deal to many of you... but when you've worked for 4 years to accomplish something and then find the goal may be pulled out from underneath you, it was a big deal to most of us.
As I said before, I believe there was a solution. But no one could see it then...or now. Had they seen the possibility of the solution, TWI could have flourished. But the shellshock left the organization with no leadership. The only result left was for LCM to relinquish control. When he woke up and realized he had missed the solution, he made a 5 senses attempt (business as usual) at getting back on track. He failed, miserably. Comparable to Solomon.
For all the stupid errors of leadership prior to POP, there was still the possiblility of recovery. The wrongs could have been righted. Where there is no leadership, people wander aimlessly.
2 + 1 cents, thanks for the insight, you are probably right.
YIdon'tgo-The wrongs that needed to righted probably were to pull back the whole concept of the ministry and roll it back to the way it was as of 1969 before the movement of the word became a centralized hierarchical ministry hijacked by VP.
Can't believe a single word of POP by Geer. The BOT at that time were just too stupid to eat that up...that gullible...and sign statements such as those to the document. Geer had been to close to VPW and knew him very well and the BOT knew that. Geer completely took advantage of his relationship with VPW and made up this story about Wierwille's last thoughts on TWI leadership. Had that document come from anyone else, the BOT would not have believed it. Afterward, even LCM admitted they were dupedand said they only originally believed it because it came from him. Anyone else, no. Martindale finally concluded it was a piece of fiction and Don Wierwille said it straight out "It was a lie...". I was there when Don said that.
It is not unusual to be emotionally attacked, then recover your senses. I disregard the signatures on the POP based on the grip Geer had over them at that time. While I believe the BOT was not doing right...Geer was much worse.
Sorry I don't buy it! What about the subsequent personal letters from the trustees and the audio tape updates where they confirmed the same was true this went on for almost two years How many times does one admit to something that they know is not true, Really if someone accuses you of doing something you know if it is true or not and certainly would not admit to it if it was not. ok I'll give ya maybe the shock for a few days but years come on? And are the others who witnessed these things like Walter Cummins, Wolfgang Schneider, Robert Wilkinson John Townsend also lying when they attested to it. Of course Craig and Don said it was a lie and fiction they had no other cover for why they suddenly changed their story when they saw their easy street life slip sliding away
For some reason, it hit a guilt nerve with the BOT and they signed it, and said they'd try to change. But because what they were supposed to change TO was pretty vague and because they were pretty stupid individuals with not much imagination, they were not able to please Geer any more than they pleased VPW. So he dicked with them a while then came back and had a big meeting with all the clergy (Nov 1986) he installed 2 more people on the board and eventually pulled the plug of his involvement.
I personally sat with Ric@rdo and asked him about that vague statement in POP where Cgeer accuses the trustees of attempting to kill vp wierwille..............and Ric@rdo brushed it off by referencing the situation and how the trustees missed overseeing some details. Cgeer's wording and inference of his incident was highly combustible......just as he had intended it to be.
When one thinks that Cgeer had a year (or more?) to spin this POP document....and to have it come across so vague and aimless, it makes me wonder if that was it's purpose. To confuse.....and we all know that where confusion is there is every evil work.
Besides Cgeer's unique entre to the life of vpwierwille......how many secrets did he hold?? Did he have exploitive information on all the trustees.......sex trips, shady dealings, whatever?? How long had he planned aspects of this scenario??
And, to add.........is Ric@rdo in the Cgeer camp anymore??? Anybody?
Sorry I don't buy it! What about the subsequent personal letters from the trustees and the audio tape updates where they confirmed the same was true this went on for almost two years How many times does one admit to something that they know is not true, Really if someone accuses you of doing something you know if it is true or not and certainly would not admit to it if it was not. ok I'll give ya maybe the shock for a few days but years come on?
Based on Howard's own comment on the document
(about "the man I helped kill"),
the doctrinal spin IN PoP
(where Chris insisted vpw would rise from his deathbed with his L337 believing skillz
if only he had a cheering section)
and the congruence with foundational twi doctrine
(Blue Book, first 4 chapters, Session I, pfal),
I think that CG believed (like a good fanatic) that vpw WAS a super-believer and COULD
do just that,
heard from the fading vpw how he was replaced and dismissed at hq,
believed (like a good fanatic) that this was tantamount to Israel rejecting Moses,
and believed that the people who ignored him as good as pulled the trigger
on a gun, since they failed to render aid which would have enabled his super-believing
to throw off the effects of the cancer/kryptonite.
CG then went to them, and spun the whole story, which blamed them in exactly that
fashion.
Since it matched twi doctrine and vpw's own media manipulation of his image,
and CG was completely sincere, they all bought it.
Thus, they then believed their failure to prostrate themselves before vpw once he was
out of office led directly to his death of his encroaching cancer by failing to stop it.
They then made their public statements.
Later,
they had their "what a minute!" moments (smaller versions of the ones that got us out of twi),
and stopped blaming themselves for something they had virtually no effect on.
So, in this case, I agree with WhiteDove.
(Is that the sound of the encroaching Apocalypse I hear?)
I personally sat with Ric@rdo and asked him about that vague statement in POP where Cgeer accuses the trustees of attempting to kill vp wierwille..............and Ric@rdo brushed it off by referencing the situation and how the trustees missed overseeing some details. Cgeer's wording and inference of his incident was highly combustible......just as he had intended it to be.
When one thinks that Cgeer had a year (or more?) to spin this POP document....and to have it come across so vague and aimless, it makes me wonder if that was it's purpose. To confuse.....and we all know that where confusion is there is every evil work.
Besides Cgeer's unique entre to the life of vpwierwille......how many secrets did he hold?? Did he have exploitive information on all the trustees.......sex trips, shady dealings, whatever?? How long had he planned aspects of this scenario??
And, to add.........is Ric@rdo in the Cgeer camp anymore??? Anybody?
Interesting thought.
On the one hand, vpw indulged in all that himself.
On the other hand, CG saw him as entitled to rape and commit felonies and feed his vices
because he was the MOG.
So, it was wrong for EVERYONE ELSE, maybe.
Maybe he thought they'd shake loose some heinous actions by admission.
Hopefully, without shining a light on the innocent blood staining HIS hands....
On the one hand, vpw indulged in all that himself.
On the other hand, CG saw him as entitled to rape and commit felonies and feed his vices
because he was the MOG.
VPW worked that way when he was alive. Anything was OK for him to do - but not others. He never set up a system to explain why something was OK one day and wrong another or OK for him but not for others. If asked he would explain it in vague terms like "being spiritual" or "doing the word". But he never really wanted others to have the power to make decisions the way he did - only to make decisions that served him.
So when craig don and howard started feeling their oats, it doesn't surprize me they felt guilty when geer nailed them.
As for the idea that the BOT could have salvaged something if they'd only .... done something different? I don't buy it. The whole thing from the get go was set up to serve vpw's ego and pocket book. It grew a lot in the early '70s because of 2 things (in my never humble opinon) one is it hadn't gotten to the point where the legalism and serving of VPW was so obvious - rather it seemed like a free love and free spirit trip back to the bible and two it was the right time for that kind of thing. Young people didn't care about making a lot of money, they cared about making a difference, and were looking to "new" and anti-establishment ways to do so. And they (by they I mean we) were too naive and unschooled to realize that what we thought was a new thing was actually an old rip-off.
The growth rate of the way stopped after a while - even though the membership remained steady for a bit because both those things were changing. It wasn't so fashionable to be a hippy on a spiritual quest and the legalism and flow of $$, obedience and sex toward the top were becoming more widespread. Then as things got worse in that area, the membership started to decline. When Geer read the POP and for a few years later it gave a lot of folks the emotional cover they needed to make the break. That was my story anyway.
Narcissists are at their core extremely insecure people. They are very afraid that people will find out how fallible they are (instead of just accepting that we all are fallible). So they invent a whole persona, a super-being, to use WordWolf's image. A Very Special Person. And they look for people to worship that image. They spend most of their energy controlling everyone, positioning them to adore the image.
But some people get too close to the Narcissist, they start to see through the facade. The Narcissist can't stand this, and really can't stand to lose control of the situation. So he plays power games, constantly putting others in their place a few steps lower than his Very Special Self. No matter what others do, they can never fully please him -- the Narcissist will change the rules to keep them confused and off-balance, and they are so busy trying to please their adored Very Special Person that they don't stop to realize that they are being abused.
Yes Indeedy, they are al classic examples of the narcissist personality.
What I wonder is, if cg made the POP so vague because he had to be very careful about incriminating himself since he wasn't any more innocent of the same things than those he accused of killing vee pee.
Well, how better to declare yourself a Very Special Person than to proclaim yourself the Man of God for Our Day and Time? If you can't be God, you can be God's favorite.
And if you can't be God's favorite, you can be the one of God's best, and feel entitled to judge and abuse everyone else. So you get a MOG, and mini-MOGS.
I think that to answer the question of this topic one has to take a position, a side if you will.
Nowadays, most folk who frequent the cafe have taken the position (i'm characterizing it this way for communication's sake ONLY) that "the whole dang thing was wrong from the get go."
The whole dang thing being TWI, especially VPW and his "followers." Followers being "leadership who shared in his errant ways and deeds.
You just can't get there (to what they did "wrong") from here (that position). You'll get pretty much what we've got here in this thread.
As one who lived @ HQ and worked there through the 80's I can tell you a perpective that I observed from my POV. Again, this is not the be it all, end all perpective... just my educated opinion.
One can't find the detail in POP from looking at it outside in. The detail lies in what was SOOOO different about life in TWI while VPW was in charge and how it was after LCM took over. How we related to each other in general on staff and throughout the ministry on a daily basis was very different, as in worse.
POP atttributed those changes to the LCM, DEW, HA. BOT.
Those of us who lived the days when life @ HQ was actually "family" and who were hacked off greatly by the cold, corporate TWI of the mid-late 80's had the position, VPW regime = good vs. LCM regime = bad.
Good= Godly
Bad= "turned away from" God.
As TWI turned in its ways, that was tantamount to turning away from God. I can speak for us rank & file TWI staffers of the day and tell you that we got up EVERY morning and went to work believing that we were doing our uptmost for God.
VPW & what he did or did not do were not part of our daily day.
I think that to answer the question of this topic one has to take a position, a side if you will.
Nowadays, most folk who frequent the cafe have taken the position (i'm characterizing it this way for communication's sake ONLY) that "the whole dang thing was wrong from the get go."
The whole dang thing being TWI, especially VPW and his "followers." Followers being "leadership who shared in his errant ways and deeds.
Welcome back, HCW.
Sorry, but I can't agree with you there.
Few of us say EVERYTHING was wrong. (There's always a "minority opinion" for every position...)
I'd agree what vpw did, and what he taught his inner circle to do,
are things I (and most Americans) would classify as immoral, wrong, and illegal.
Many would also call that "evil."
That's independent of the fact that there were some good things mixed AMONGST them.
Most of us would say, for example,
"Go to pulpit, and preach Acts 2, good thing. Leave pulpit and drug young female and rape her, bad thing."
Neither precisely negates the other as an action,
but an inconsistent standard means the "leader" is not walking with God.
One cannot serve God part-time and mammon part-time.
(Jesus is about as authoritative a figure as one can quote on such a subject.)
Many people had most of their interactions with Heefn3r, D00p, and Christians like them.
Those were good times, and godly ones, for the most part.
(Or at least not ungodly at the worst of times.)
You just can't get there (to what they did "wrong") from here (that position). You'll get pretty much what we've got here in this thread.
As one who lived @ HQ and worked there through the 80's I can tell you a perpective that I observed from my POV. Again, this is not the be it all, end all perpective... just my educated opinion.
One can't find the detail in POP from looking at it outside in. The detail lies in what was SOOOO different about life in TWI while VPW was in charge and how it was after LCM took over. How we related to each other in general on staff and throughout the ministry on a daily basis was very different, as in worse.
Actually, a number of people who dealt face-to-face with vpw reported the same types of
dealings later complained about if lcm did them.
POP atttributed those changes to the LCM, DEW, HA. BOT.
Those of us who lived the days when life @ HQ was actually "family" and who were hacked off greatly by the cold, corporate TWI of the mid-late 80's had the position, VPW regime = good vs. LCM regime = bad.
Good= Godly
Bad= "turned away from" God.
As TWI turned in its ways, that was tantamount to turning away from God. I can speak for us rank & file TWI staffers of the day and tell you that we got up EVERY morning and went to work believing that we were doing our uptmost for God.
VPW & what he did or did not do were not part of our daily day.
I'm thankful to God that what vpw did or did not do was not part of your day-to-day.
I'm confident that was a blessing from God to you. You were free to do your utmost for Him,
which you did.
Not everyone who was on-grounds, however, can make such claims.
(Especially the young women.)
It seems to me that vpw was "good" to some people- he left you alone mostly and could seem
even affectionate at times-
and "evil" to some people- especially young, impressionable women.
For the most part, those who HAD to deal with him the most tend to have the harshest
memories of him. (Like Mrs W admitting he was "a mean man". Like HA AND CG supposedly
insulating others from outbursts and rampages on his part.)
Granted, while you worked your heart out in one building, what vpw did some of the
time in ANOTHER building to a few women wasn't affecting your day.
True, he didn't ruin MOST of the lives of the followers, even the women.
Also true, you probably had no way of knowing, nor even a hint to SUSPECT anything.
Did that make it dismissable, or acceptable?
Did that have no effect on the spiritual environment on grounds?
Even the "victimless" crimes, where vpw killed himself slowly with alcohol and tobacco,
did those have no effect on the spiritual climate?
What I wonder is, if cg made the POP so vague because he had to be very careful about incriminating himself since he wasn't any more innocent of the same things than those he accused of killing vee pee.
I don't think that occured to him. I don't think he thought he was being vague. I think it was perfectly clear in his mind what was meant by everything he said, and if others saw it differently it was just another sign of their lack of spiritual perception.
Reminds me of a time just before I ended my involvement w/ the way. there was a guy under me who was a real nut job but was running a bunch of classes. I tried to confront him on a bunch of stuff but my boss (who was dumber than a box of rocks) took his side of the argument. At one point my boss called me in to ream me out and just sat me down and read a bunch of bible verses. Didn't say anything about what I'd done that he didn't like, or what I should do to apply the verses or change my behavior. Just read the verses as if that would make it obvious what he was talking about. I just said fine and left the room when he was done.
Sure. People had varying experiences w/ VPW. I had varying, as in good & bad, experiences w/ him myself.
What I was trying to express was that it is difficult to say wht the BOT actually did, as expressed in POP without having a simple, VPW vs BOT perspective. The BOT perspective, in answer to this question was "nothing." Or "Not much."
VPW's perspective was "a LOT." There was a LOT of infighting on staff concerning the old vs the new ways.
They, the BOT, certainly changed a LOT of policies that effected everyday life @ HQ and through the ministry. Some of the changes were brought on by growth of the corporation. At least on paper....
I always felt that if we were in fact "God's ministry" we would not have tried so hard and spent so much money lining up w/ "corporate" ways of doing things and did things "God's way." God's way being clearly defined by the Bible.
Things didn't go that way.
For example:
There was a time when ANY believer could rent ANY vehicle in TWI's fleet (including Ambassador One the corporate turbo pro w/ jet enhancements). The BOT changed this policy saying that it was driven by IRS rules.
I, among others, felt this was BS.
I've told the story on GS before about how I went in w/ another staffer and we rented one of the limos and went on a double date to a local drive-in with a couple ladies from staff. It made for a really cool date.
The new rule put the kibosh on that kind of thing and took a lot of "heart" out of the way we did things.
Hard to know stuff like that w/o being there.
It was VPW's policy that EVERY piece of equipment, EVERY asset that the ministry owned belonged to EVERY believer because it was YOU, as in YOU the believers, who supported the ministry financially that paid for every stinking thing we used every day.
We staffers didn't actually support the minstry because most of us got 100% of our income FROM the ministry. This meant, to me, that I owed each and every believer my very life because you paid for the roof oever my head, my vehicles and even the food I ate which kept me, and my family ALIVE.
I'm sure you guys know that the average TWI staffer doesn't think that way today.
What did the BOT do?
They led TWI down the path to where it is today.
Sure you can lay that at VP's feet as he was "the man".
Facts remain, however that VP instituted a LOT of policies & procedures that made TWI a really cool place to live & work at one time.
Interesting however that he also do the things that he is so much maligned for here in these foums. At the same times and even on some of the same days.
Honestly speaking, my total experience w/ VP was that he was like an adopted Grandfather to me.
I'm sure not many here share that kind of experience.
In short I'd say, which is not so much vague as it is paraphrasing, that the BOT killed the Godly heart of HQ which lived in the staffers. Those of us who really believed in our hearts we were serving GOD and functioned as independant thinkers, strong individuals who really weren't there to serve VP; we had a heart for GOD.
The BOT either got us to change to the "dark side" or got rid of us. Many of us REFUSED to be broken and we were FIRED. Some, like myself in the most heinous ways.
The issue is perspective.
I was a malcontent, a violator of company policy. Therefore eligible for termination on those grounds.
MY perspective was that I felt it more important to spend time with my wife and three children than to leave them home while I sat through a tapes of teachings I had already attended when they were taught live. I felt I should study my notes from said teachings w/my wife.
BOT said I was wrong because WC grad staff was "required" to attend Corps Night. Their perspective was, "If you don't support the Corps by going to Corps Night how can we expect the current WC to attend either?"
I felt that was BS. I said. "Maybe because they are PAYING to be here as a part of their COLLEGE and it is one of their CLASSES? I'm here as PAID staff to work my job from 8 to 5 - - M,T,W,T,F. After work time my time is MINE to do w/ as I choose.
Thanks for the insight into what it used to be.. I wasn't around during that era.. Maybe it would have been a little better. There is nothing but corruption there now. BUt even then, I had a great time on staff with the friends I had.. It was probably the same for you, maybe even better while you were there. BUt it doesn't negate the fact that the top leaders were doing the most ungodly things.
But.. Sure puts things in perspective to see where there heart was at least to try and bless the people at first (despite taking other things from them). Now, they jus take. No give at all..
Sad.. So sad...
Hey, but it's not to late for us to love one another.
Sure. People had varying experiences w/ VPW. I had varying, as in good & bad, experiences w/ him myself.
What I was trying to express was that it is difficult to say wht the BOT actually did, as expressed in POP without having a simple, VPW vs BOT perspective. The BOT perspective, in answer to this question was "nothing." Or "Not much."
VPW's perspective was "a LOT." There was a LOT of infighting on staff concerning the old vs the new ways.
They, the BOT, certainly changed a LOT of policies that effected everyday life @ HQ and through the ministry. Some of the changes were brought on by growth of the corporation. At least on paper....
I always felt that if we were in fact "God's ministry" we would not have tried so hard and spent so much money lining up w/ "corporate" ways of doing things and did things "God's way." God's way being clearly defined by the Bible.
Things didn't go that way.
For example:
There was a time when ANY believer could rent ANY vehicle in TWI's fleet (including Ambassador One the corporate turbo pro w/ jet enhancements). The BOT changed this policy saying that it was driven by IRS rules.
I, among others, felt this was BS.
I've told the story on GS before about how I went in w/ another staffer and we rented one of the limos and went on a double date to a local drive-in with a couple ladies from staff. It made for a really cool date.
The new rule put the kibosh on that kind of thing and took a lot of "heart" out of the way we did things.
Hard to know stuff like that w/o being there.
It was VPW's policy that EVERY piece of equipment, EVERY asset that the ministry owned belonged to EVERY believer because it was YOU, as in YOU the believers, who supported the ministry financially that paid for every stinking thing we used every day.
I won't disagree, on any of that.
I will add one caveat, however- as documented by lcm himself, vpw pretty much had
staked out some equipment was HIS. That's why he had someone pick up vpw in
"his" golf-cart, but forgot to ASK PERMISSION FIRST, and vpw blew up at him later,
saying "KEEP YOUR HANDS OFF MY STUFF."
So, I'd say his policy was that ALMOST EVERY piece of equipment, ALMOST every asset that the ministry
owned was available for use (not belonged to-it was always considered twi property) to EVERY believer.
That's roughly the same thing you said, but not EXACTLY the same, and I thought it
was fair to point that out.
We staffers didn't actually support the minstry because most of us got 100% of our income FROM the ministry. This meant, to me, that I owed each and every believer my very life because you paid for the roof oever my head, my vehicles and even the food I ate which kept me, and my family ALIVE.
I'm sure you guys know that the average TWI staffer doesn't think that way today.
No arguments there!
What did the BOT do?
They led TWI down the path to where it is today.
Sure you can lay that at VP's feet as he was "the man".
Facts remain, however that VP instituted a LOT of policies & procedures that made TWI a really cool place to live & work at one time.
Seems many rules are often-commented-on because they were caustic and destructive.
Some rules which are not are usually not commented-on so much.
That includes the "you can check out the car" policy.
I think it was very good to have such policies, and he either instituted them or
signed off on those policies, so he's responsible for THOSE as much as the others.
It is my OPINION that certain things that affected him PERSONALLY were dictated
to the nth degree, but most things that did not were given broad outlines,
checked sometimes to make sure they were still working, and the people in charge
of them otherwise were to proceed at their own discretion.
(Read that: they could do their jobs without someone perched on their shoulder like
some vulture, unless you answered to Im0gene or Rozilla herself.)
Interesting however that he also do the things that he is so much maligned for here in these foums. At the same times and even on some of the same days.
Honestly speaking, my total experience w/ VP was that he was like an adopted Grandfather to me.
I'm sure not many here share that kind of experience.
I'd be mildly surprised to see ANY here share that SPECIFIC type of experience with him.
In short I'd say, which is not so much vague as it is paraphrasing, that the BOT killed the Godly heart of HQ which lived in the staffers. Those of us who really believed in our hearts we were serving GOD and functioned as independant thinkers, strong individuals who really weren't there to serve VP; we had a heart for GOD.
I'd agree. You and I had been making completely different points at the same time,
which LOOKED contradictory.
The BOT either got us to change to the "dark side" or got rid of us. Many of us REFUSED to be broken and we were FIRED. Some, like myself in the most heinous ways.
The issue is perspective.
I was a malcontent, a violator of company policy. Therefore eligible for termination on those grounds.
MY perspective was that I felt it more important to spend time with my wife and three children than to leave them home while I sat through a tapes of teachings I had already attended when they were taught live. I felt I should study my notes from said teachings w/my wife.
BOT said I was wrong because WC grad staff was "required" to attend Corps Night. Their perspective was, "If you don't support the Corps by going to Corps Night how can we expect the current WC to attend either?"
I felt that was BS. I said. "Maybe because they are PAYING to be here as a part of their COLLEGE and it is one of their CLASSES? I'm here as PAID staff to work my job from 8 to 5 - - M,T,W,T,F. After work time my time is MINE to do w/ as I choose.
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Sunesis
Great post T-Bone. I have always thought God opened two doors to exit TWI so we wouldn't all lose "face" in front of our corps brothers and sisters. The first one was POP. After this was when all us hippies who had grown up and now were in our late 20s, and thirties all left together. It was like the Holy Spirit just whispered in everyone's heart at once - leave! We did.
The other was the Allan lawsuit. It too opened the door for the younger generation, who thought us "old hippies" had become cop-outs. They made their exodus then.
I agree, we can look at events, but the meltdown, I also believe was God's doing.
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Nottawayfer
I went to a divorce care group after I left twi because I wanted marriage again, and I thought my views on marriage were skewed and messed up after my divorce and being in TWI. After going to the group a few times, the guy leading the group asked me from where I came. I told him TWI, but I had disassociated myself from them a few months prior. I told him I was divorced (had been for 7 years at that time), but I needed to get my thinking straight on marriage since I wanted to get married again. After a few more times in the group, he came to me and told me he felt I was there because I was divorcing TWI. Everything I brought up to share in the group was about my experieces in TWI. I felt the hurt and betrayal as if I had been divorced. That ah! ha! moment for me rang so true. I learned how to move on from the anger and betrayal I felt from TWI. It was the best thing I ever did for myself.
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YIdon'tgotochurch
What did the BOT do wrong?
IMHO they turned the microphone on that Corps nite over to CG. That was a foolish error. To shell shock leadership like that on a Corps night, with no heads up? Big mistake! ! !
In POP, CG quotes VPW as saying the BOT had gotten caught up in "facts, facts, facts". I remember just a few years before that, we were all carrying brief cases to twig. We were 80's savy. Statistics were more important than taking care of people.
I can recall people I met, developed a great report with only to have them practically overwhelmed going to Twig. Then, there were people I developed a great working relationship or even (almost) a friendship and when leadership saw me later, they would ask me, " Why isn't so&so in the class?" Implying something was wrong with me if I spent time undersheparding them before they took the class.
Besides the overwhelming ego of CG throughout POP, the biggest problem was no specific direction or solution was provided. The end result. "Every man went to his own tent." Mouths were unstoppable and opinions were running more rampant than after Korea tested the bomb. There was a solution. No one wanted to hear it. Then or now.
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now I see
That time period was weird and confusing...we were told to get back to God and the Word, but with so much other crap mixed into what we thought was doctrine how was that supposed to happen.
Ge*r was still resting on VP's laurels and told the in residence Corps to study PFAL and increase the work program, like some magical fix. Ge*r did not have the answers either.
I suppose Ge*r thought the BOT and LCM were going to lead us back to God, maybe he told them to read PFAL too! :(
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Nottawayfer
Are you saing things would have continued to be hunky dory if Geer hadn't read POP at Corps Week?
I think his reading POP was God's way of giving MANY a reason to exit the damn place. I wish the hell I would have stayed away when I left in 1990, but waybrain wouldn't let me do that. I went back to the sheethole ministry because the Geerite groups I attended were jokes.
A great church would have done me good.......
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My3Cents
Disclaimer - I was there for much if this but not in the back rooms. What follows is my opinion from my experiences 20 years ago. Take it as such.
The BOT didn't do much. The organization was never run with any degree of efficiency, but becaus of loyal drones it didn't need much oversight. They basically made up whatever work they wanted to make themselves feel important. VPW did the same.
He (VPW) was always blasting people for not doing what he expected and calling them not spiritual enough because they didn't figure it out in time or because what he wanted kept changing (this is a pattern with alcoholics) or because he spoke in such vague spiritual-sounding generalities that when it came to specifics he was unhappy. Wasted a TON of money re-doing many construction projects because of this kind of poor planning.
When he had given over the presidency to martindale, it soon began to bother him that he wasn't the center of attention and didn't in fact have a lot of power (because he'd given it away and then he got sick) and toward the end of his life he couldn't say this to anyone but Chris Geer (and I think Ralph Dubofsky as a back up). Geer was psychotic in his devotion and also in his ability to use vauge spiritual sounding language and that's where the POP came from.
For some reason, it hit a guilt nerve with the BOT and they signed it, and said they'd try to change. But because what they were supposed to change TO was pretty vague and because they were pretty stupid individuals with not much imagination, they were not able to please Geer any more than they pleased VPW. So he dicked with them a while then came back and had a big meeting with all the clergy (Nov 1986) he installed 2 more people on the board and eventually pulled the plug of his involvement.
As for it being a power grab - yes and no. Geer wanted to blow things up but he had several opportunities to grab power and he never did. The first was when he first read the POP - those guys would have been happy not just to sign his letter, but also let him lead them - but he didnt'.
Same thing after the clergy meeting. He could have lead a following then - but instead he went back to Gartmore and said basically 'You guys figure it out, but I'll be watching and tell you everytime you screw up"
He did, early on in this process, grab power in the form of ownership of the copyrights to VPW's material in Europe (or perhaps everywhere outside the US) but he could have been annointed king of the whole enchalada and for reasons I don't understand, he neglected to do it.
If he had done it, I think he would have been so extreme that the blow ups which happened later would have happened sooner but just my opinion.
As for what he accused the BOT of and they agreed to - it was basically very vague stuff like "Foresaking our father in the word" and similar descriptions that are open to so much interpretation as to be useless.
That's my 2 cents and one for inflation.
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J0nny Ling0
The BOT is a saloon in Nome, Alaska, which stands for "Board Of Trade", or to the locals, "Booty On Tap" because of the randy eskimo gals that hang out there like serious predators. I have spent many an evening there after spending 12 hours out in the sub zero weather working all day putting up free houses for the Eskimos.
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Eagle
Can't believe a single word of POP by Geer. The BOT at that time were just too stupid to eat that up...that gullible...and sign statements such as those to the document. Geer had been to close to VPW and knew him very well and the BOT knew that. Geer completely took advantage of his relationship with VPW and made up this story about Wierwille's last thoughts on TWI leadership. Had that document come from anyone else, the BOT would not have believed it. Afterward, even LCM admitted they were dupedand said they only originally believed it because it came from him. Anyone else, no. Martindale finally concluded it was a piece of fiction and Don Wierwille said it straight out "It was a lie...". I was there when Don said that.
It is not unusual to be emotionally attacked, then recover your senses. I disregard the signatures on the POP based on the grip Geer had over them at that time. While I believe the BOT was not doing right...Geer was much worse.
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YIdon'tgotochurch
Had there been an ounce of direction offered between the reading in the last Corps night of April, and August, reading it at Corps week would have been fine. I was referring mainly to the reading in April (I was there). The leadership at Emporia went into shock. It was as though the stock market fell and they all lost their life's savings or they just witnessed 9/11.
I was in the 14th Corps. We were scheduled to arrive at HQ the next weekend to begin our final block of so called training and graduation. We weren't so sure we were going to graduate after that night. Not such a big deal to many of you... but when you've worked for 4 years to accomplish something and then find the goal may be pulled out from underneath you, it was a big deal to most of us.
As I said before, I believe there was a solution. But no one could see it then...or now. Had they seen the possibility of the solution, TWI could have flourished. But the shellshock left the organization with no leadership. The only result left was for LCM to relinquish control. When he woke up and realized he had missed the solution, he made a 5 senses attempt (business as usual) at getting back on track. He failed, miserably. Comparable to Solomon.
For all the stupid errors of leadership prior to POP, there was still the possiblility of recovery. The wrongs could have been righted. Where there is no leadership, people wander aimlessly.
Bring on the critique.
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now I see
2 + 1 cents, thanks for the insight, you are probably right.
YIdon'tgo-The wrongs that needed to righted probably were to pull back the whole concept of the ministry and roll it back to the way it was as of 1969 before the movement of the word became a centralized hierarchical ministry hijacked by VP.
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WhiteDove
Sorry I don't buy it! What about the subsequent personal letters from the trustees and the audio tape updates where they confirmed the same was true this went on for almost two years How many times does one admit to something that they know is not true, Really if someone accuses you of doing something you know if it is true or not and certainly would not admit to it if it was not. ok I'll give ya maybe the shock for a few days but years come on? And are the others who witnessed these things like Walter Cummins, Wolfgang Schneider, Robert Wilkinson John Townsend also lying when they attested to it. Of course Craig and Don said it was a lie and fiction they had no other cover for why they suddenly changed their story when they saw their easy street life slip sliding away
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skyrider
I personally sat with Ric@rdo and asked him about that vague statement in POP where Cgeer accuses the trustees of attempting to kill vp wierwille..............and Ric@rdo brushed it off by referencing the situation and how the trustees missed overseeing some details. Cgeer's wording and inference of his incident was highly combustible......just as he had intended it to be.
When one thinks that Cgeer had a year (or more?) to spin this POP document....and to have it come across so vague and aimless, it makes me wonder if that was it's purpose. To confuse.....and we all know that where confusion is there is every evil work.
Besides Cgeer's unique entre to the life of vpwierwille......how many secrets did he hold?? Did he have exploitive information on all the trustees.......sex trips, shady dealings, whatever?? How long had he planned aspects of this scenario??
And, to add.........is Ric@rdo in the Cgeer camp anymore??? Anybody?
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WordWolf
Based on Howard's own comment on the document
(about "the man I helped kill"),
the doctrinal spin IN PoP
(where Chris insisted vpw would rise from his deathbed with his L337 believing skillz
if only he had a cheering section)
and the congruence with foundational twi doctrine
(Blue Book, first 4 chapters, Session I, pfal),
I think that CG believed (like a good fanatic) that vpw WAS a super-believer and COULD
do just that,
heard from the fading vpw how he was replaced and dismissed at hq,
believed (like a good fanatic) that this was tantamount to Israel rejecting Moses,
and believed that the people who ignored him as good as pulled the trigger
on a gun, since they failed to render aid which would have enabled his super-believing
to throw off the effects of the cancer/kryptonite.
CG then went to them, and spun the whole story, which blamed them in exactly that
fashion.
Since it matched twi doctrine and vpw's own media manipulation of his image,
and CG was completely sincere, they all bought it.
Thus, they then believed their failure to prostrate themselves before vpw once he was
out of office led directly to his death of his encroaching cancer by failing to stop it.
They then made their public statements.
Later,
they had their "what a minute!" moments (smaller versions of the ones that got us out of twi),
and stopped blaming themselves for something they had virtually no effect on.
So, in this case, I agree with WhiteDove.
(Is that the sound of the encroaching Apocalypse I hear?)
Interesting thought.
On the one hand, vpw indulged in all that himself.
On the other hand, CG saw him as entitled to rape and commit felonies and feed his vices
because he was the MOG.
So, it was wrong for EVERYONE ELSE, maybe.
Maybe he thought they'd shake loose some heinous actions by admission.
Hopefully, without shining a light on the innocent blood staining HIS hands....
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My3Cents
VPW worked that way when he was alive. Anything was OK for him to do - but not others. He never set up a system to explain why something was OK one day and wrong another or OK for him but not for others. If asked he would explain it in vague terms like "being spiritual" or "doing the word". But he never really wanted others to have the power to make decisions the way he did - only to make decisions that served him.
So when craig don and howard started feeling their oats, it doesn't surprize me they felt guilty when geer nailed them.
As for the idea that the BOT could have salvaged something if they'd only .... done something different? I don't buy it. The whole thing from the get go was set up to serve vpw's ego and pocket book. It grew a lot in the early '70s because of 2 things (in my never humble opinon) one is it hadn't gotten to the point where the legalism and serving of VPW was so obvious - rather it seemed like a free love and free spirit trip back to the bible and two it was the right time for that kind of thing. Young people didn't care about making a lot of money, they cared about making a difference, and were looking to "new" and anti-establishment ways to do so. And they (by they I mean we) were too naive and unschooled to realize that what we thought was a new thing was actually an old rip-off.
The growth rate of the way stopped after a while - even though the membership remained steady for a bit because both those things were changing. It wasn't so fashionable to be a hippy on a spiritual quest and the legalism and flow of $$, obedience and sex toward the top were becoming more widespread. Then as things got worse in that area, the membership started to decline. When Geer read the POP and for a few years later it gave a lot of folks the emotional cover they needed to make the break. That was my story anyway.
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shazdancer
Well said, 3cents.
Narcissists are at their core extremely insecure people. They are very afraid that people will find out how fallible they are (instead of just accepting that we all are fallible). So they invent a whole persona, a super-being, to use WordWolf's image. A Very Special Person. And they look for people to worship that image. They spend most of their energy controlling everyone, positioning them to adore the image.
But some people get too close to the Narcissist, they start to see through the facade. The Narcissist can't stand this, and really can't stand to lose control of the situation. So he plays power games, constantly putting others in their place a few steps lower than his Very Special Self. No matter what others do, they can never fully please him -- the Narcissist will change the rules to keep them confused and off-balance, and they are so busy trying to please their adored Very Special Person that they don't stop to realize that they are being abused.
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Belle
Yes Indeedy, they are al classic examples of the narcissist personality.
What I wonder is, if cg made the POP so vague because he had to be very careful about incriminating himself since he wasn't any more innocent of the same things than those he accused of killing vee pee.
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pinklady
Right on Shazdancer!! I Have met some of those men myself!!!
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shazdancer
Well, how better to declare yourself a Very Special Person than to proclaim yourself the Man of God for Our Day and Time? If you can't be God, you can be God's favorite.
And if you can't be God's favorite, you can be the one of God's best, and feel entitled to judge and abuse everyone else. So you get a MOG, and mini-MOGS.
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HCW
I think that to answer the question of this topic one has to take a position, a side if you will.
Nowadays, most folk who frequent the cafe have taken the position (i'm characterizing it this way for communication's sake ONLY) that "the whole dang thing was wrong from the get go."
The whole dang thing being TWI, especially VPW and his "followers." Followers being "leadership who shared in his errant ways and deeds.
You just can't get there (to what they did "wrong") from here (that position). You'll get pretty much what we've got here in this thread.
As one who lived @ HQ and worked there through the 80's I can tell you a perpective that I observed from my POV. Again, this is not the be it all, end all perpective... just my educated opinion.
One can't find the detail in POP from looking at it outside in. The detail lies in what was SOOOO different about life in TWI while VPW was in charge and how it was after LCM took over. How we related to each other in general on staff and throughout the ministry on a daily basis was very different, as in worse.
POP atttributed those changes to the LCM, DEW, HA. BOT.
Those of us who lived the days when life @ HQ was actually "family" and who were hacked off greatly by the cold, corporate TWI of the mid-late 80's had the position, VPW regime = good vs. LCM regime = bad.
Good= Godly
Bad= "turned away from" God.
As TWI turned in its ways, that was tantamount to turning away from God. I can speak for us rank & file TWI staffers of the day and tell you that we got up EVERY morning and went to work believing that we were doing our uptmost for God.
VPW & what he did or did not do were not part of our daily day.
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WordWolf
Welcome back, HCW.
Sorry, but I can't agree with you there.
Few of us say EVERYTHING was wrong. (There's always a "minority opinion" for every position...)
I'd agree what vpw did, and what he taught his inner circle to do,
are things I (and most Americans) would classify as immoral, wrong, and illegal.
Many would also call that "evil."
That's independent of the fact that there were some good things mixed AMONGST them.
Most of us would say, for example,
"Go to pulpit, and preach Acts 2, good thing. Leave pulpit and drug young female and rape her, bad thing."
Neither precisely negates the other as an action,
but an inconsistent standard means the "leader" is not walking with God.
One cannot serve God part-time and mammon part-time.
(Jesus is about as authoritative a figure as one can quote on such a subject.)
Many people had most of their interactions with Heefn3r, D00p, and Christians like them.
Those were good times, and godly ones, for the most part.
(Or at least not ungodly at the worst of times.)
Actually, a number of people who dealt face-to-face with vpw reported the same types ofdealings later complained about if lcm did them.
I'm thankful to God that what vpw did or did not do was not part of your day-to-day.
I'm confident that was a blessing from God to you. You were free to do your utmost for Him,
which you did.
Not everyone who was on-grounds, however, can make such claims.
(Especially the young women.)
It seems to me that vpw was "good" to some people- he left you alone mostly and could seem
even affectionate at times-
and "evil" to some people- especially young, impressionable women.
For the most part, those who HAD to deal with him the most tend to have the harshest
memories of him. (Like Mrs W admitting he was "a mean man". Like HA AND CG supposedly
insulating others from outbursts and rampages on his part.)
Granted, while you worked your heart out in one building, what vpw did some of the
time in ANOTHER building to a few women wasn't affecting your day.
True, he didn't ruin MOST of the lives of the followers, even the women.
Also true, you probably had no way of knowing, nor even a hint to SUSPECT anything.
Did that make it dismissable, or acceptable?
Did that have no effect on the spiritual environment on grounds?
Even the "victimless" crimes, where vpw killed himself slowly with alcohol and tobacco,
did those have no effect on the spiritual climate?
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My3Cents
I don't think that occured to him. I don't think he thought he was being vague. I think it was perfectly clear in his mind what was meant by everything he said, and if others saw it differently it was just another sign of their lack of spiritual perception.
Reminds me of a time just before I ended my involvement w/ the way. there was a guy under me who was a real nut job but was running a bunch of classes. I tried to confront him on a bunch of stuff but my boss (who was dumber than a box of rocks) took his side of the argument. At one point my boss called me in to ream me out and just sat me down and read a bunch of bible verses. Didn't say anything about what I'd done that he didn't like, or what I should do to apply the verses or change my behavior. Just read the verses as if that would make it obvious what he was talking about. I just said fine and left the room when he was done.
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HCW
Sure. People had varying experiences w/ VPW. I had varying, as in good & bad, experiences w/ him myself.
What I was trying to express was that it is difficult to say wht the BOT actually did, as expressed in POP without having a simple, VPW vs BOT perspective. The BOT perspective, in answer to this question was "nothing." Or "Not much."
VPW's perspective was "a LOT." There was a LOT of infighting on staff concerning the old vs the new ways.
They, the BOT, certainly changed a LOT of policies that effected everyday life @ HQ and through the ministry. Some of the changes were brought on by growth of the corporation. At least on paper....
I always felt that if we were in fact "God's ministry" we would not have tried so hard and spent so much money lining up w/ "corporate" ways of doing things and did things "God's way." God's way being clearly defined by the Bible.
Things didn't go that way.
For example:
There was a time when ANY believer could rent ANY vehicle in TWI's fleet (including Ambassador One the corporate turbo pro w/ jet enhancements). The BOT changed this policy saying that it was driven by IRS rules.
I, among others, felt this was BS.
I've told the story on GS before about how I went in w/ another staffer and we rented one of the limos and went on a double date to a local drive-in with a couple ladies from staff. It made for a really cool date.
The new rule put the kibosh on that kind of thing and took a lot of "heart" out of the way we did things.
Hard to know stuff like that w/o being there.
It was VPW's policy that EVERY piece of equipment, EVERY asset that the ministry owned belonged to EVERY believer because it was YOU, as in YOU the believers, who supported the ministry financially that paid for every stinking thing we used every day.
We staffers didn't actually support the minstry because most of us got 100% of our income FROM the ministry. This meant, to me, that I owed each and every believer my very life because you paid for the roof oever my head, my vehicles and even the food I ate which kept me, and my family ALIVE.
I'm sure you guys know that the average TWI staffer doesn't think that way today.
What did the BOT do?
They led TWI down the path to where it is today.
Sure you can lay that at VP's feet as he was "the man".
Facts remain, however that VP instituted a LOT of policies & procedures that made TWI a really cool place to live & work at one time.
Interesting however that he also do the things that he is so much maligned for here in these foums. At the same times and even on some of the same days.
Honestly speaking, my total experience w/ VP was that he was like an adopted Grandfather to me.
I'm sure not many here share that kind of experience.
In short I'd say, which is not so much vague as it is paraphrasing, that the BOT killed the Godly heart of HQ which lived in the staffers. Those of us who really believed in our hearts we were serving GOD and functioned as independant thinkers, strong individuals who really weren't there to serve VP; we had a heart for GOD.
The BOT either got us to change to the "dark side" or got rid of us. Many of us REFUSED to be broken and we were FIRED. Some, like myself in the most heinous ways.
The issue is perspective.
I was a malcontent, a violator of company policy. Therefore eligible for termination on those grounds.
MY perspective was that I felt it more important to spend time with my wife and three children than to leave them home while I sat through a tapes of teachings I had already attended when they were taught live. I felt I should study my notes from said teachings w/my wife.
BOT said I was wrong because WC grad staff was "required" to attend Corps Night. Their perspective was, "If you don't support the Corps by going to Corps Night how can we expect the current WC to attend either?"
I felt that was BS. I said. "Maybe because they are PAYING to be here as a part of their COLLEGE and it is one of their CLASSES? I'm here as PAID staff to work my job from 8 to 5 - - M,T,W,T,F. After work time my time is MINE to do w/ as I choose.
Catch my drift?
Later.
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TrustAndObey
HCW,
Thanks for the insight into what it used to be.. I wasn't around during that era.. Maybe it would have been a little better. There is nothing but corruption there now. BUt even then, I had a great time on staff with the friends I had.. It was probably the same for you, maybe even better while you were there. BUt it doesn't negate the fact that the top leaders were doing the most ungodly things.
But.. Sure puts things in perspective to see where there heart was at least to try and bless the people at first (despite taking other things from them). Now, they jus take. No give at all..
Sad.. So sad...
Hey, but it's not to late for us to love one another.
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WordWolf
I won't disagree, on any of that.
I will add one caveat, however- as documented by lcm himself, vpw pretty much had
staked out some equipment was HIS. That's why he had someone pick up vpw in
"his" golf-cart, but forgot to ASK PERMISSION FIRST, and vpw blew up at him later,
saying "KEEP YOUR HANDS OFF MY STUFF."
So, I'd say his policy was that ALMOST EVERY piece of equipment, ALMOST every asset that the ministry
owned was available for use (not belonged to-it was always considered twi property) to EVERY believer.
That's roughly the same thing you said, but not EXACTLY the same, and I thought it
was fair to point that out.
No arguments there!Seems many rules are often-commented-on because they were caustic and destructive.
Some rules which are not are usually not commented-on so much.
That includes the "you can check out the car" policy.
I think it was very good to have such policies, and he either instituted them or
signed off on those policies, so he's responsible for THOSE as much as the others.
It is my OPINION that certain things that affected him PERSONALLY were dictated
to the nth degree, but most things that did not were given broad outlines,
checked sometimes to make sure they were still working, and the people in charge
of them otherwise were to proceed at their own discretion.
(Read that: they could do their jobs without someone perched on their shoulder like
some vulture, unless you answered to Im0gene or Rozilla herself.)
I'd be mildly surprised to see ANY here share that SPECIFIC type of experience with him.I'd agree. You and I had been making completely different points at the same time,
which LOOKED contradictory.
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