I may be wrong (I haven't read any collaterals lately) but I seem to remember the reasoning behind why twi wouldn't endorse bake-sales and car-washes.
Not to say I agree with it. I don't see anything wrong with what your area was trying to do.
In VP's book, "Christians should be Prosperous", and I'm not going to quote it, but he made mention churches shouldn't have to have bake-sales and car-washes if the tithe is being operated.
I don't know, we had car washes and I know other people that did car washes.
I can see why they wouldn't want to endorce it when it had to do with raising money for a place to get together. I mean that seems pretty pathetic. I think some people had car washes to rasie money for a class or to go WOW or maybe as a witnessing "event." But, if a church doesn't have enough money to get it's people a place to have a party, that's just pathetic. Perhaps, that is why they didn't want you to do it. They wanted to be the "AMBASSADORS FOR CHRIST" not the broken down church without a church.
I was raised in a nice Christian church where the bake sales, car washes, and making and gathering stuff for "the missionaries" was a time of fun and fellowship and making money for a good cause -- to help the kids who were going on the event, the missionaries, etc. It was just nice.
I think twi didn't want to have any unlegislated nice times -- times that they didn't control.
egad that we should help someone out by raising money to help them either get to an event or even, perish the thought, help out a family or twig member that was in need.
When they made "a decision" to cancel group effort fund raising stuff I thought twi was a lot less Christian (this "decision" reached us on the wow field in 1980 i think).
I second what lori said. In chapter 3, entitled Plain Logic, it says that a church that has to raise money by having suppers, parties or selling things aren't tithing. I remember when the VPWWOW Auditorium (what a name!) was being built, people wanted to do things to raise money, and the kabash was put on it pretty quick.
There's all sorts of treasures in this little book. Here it says that a church that is losing membership and spirituality needs to tithe. Maybe if TWI raises its mandatory abundant sharing from 15% to 25% it might become a Godly ministry with hundreds of thousands of people coming to worship? Ha! What a joke.
OK I somewhat understand the tithing logic but this event was completely local and had no connection to HQ either financially or in its' planning and organizing.
I can't see what would have been wrong with a WOW twig doing something that was confined to twig level either,for that matter.
TWI defies logic. Don't worry about not being able to see the big picture. No one can. If something doesn't work for TWI, the rules change. The whole "new wineskins" and "present day truth" mentality goes on.
For TWI, the fact that it was a branch, or a WOW twig, was enough to link it to HQ. Remember how the twig was supposed to be autonomous? Such a lie! I don't ever remember twigs ever being able to do anything without having to tell the twig area coordinator, or branch coordinator. They, in turn, sent it up the way tree. Then you either got a pat on the head, or a kick in the rear. Perish the thought that you should ask God!
C) It would have resulted in you handling money yourselves, making a decision as to its disposition,
and executing it. twi did NOT want you getting ANY practice at that...
I think there's a lot to that statement. After Wierwille made his grand decision to centralize all the money back to New Knoxville, any attempts to make decisions locally on the "spending of money" were frowned upon. VPW wanted us to send the money, not spend the money.
Maybe if they would provide money for meetings their folks wouldn't have to have bake sales and car washes. Hard to get excited about having a meeting in a park outside in Florida in the middle of the summer where it's 100 degrees with 57% humidity because we have to find FREE places to have meetings.
No Sh1t Sherlock! After helping set up for one of those gloriously HOT meetings (and I don't mean HOT teaching or HOT Bible or HOT fellowship) - I was near the point of heat stroke - had quit sweating and was about to get sick or pass out right there in the middle of the meeting. Just praying I didn't get called on to manifest - cause it wouldn't have been tongues with interpretation coming out of my mouth.
They didn't want us to have any money or any comforts - it was like they wanted us to have a poverty mentality despite all the teachings about abundance.
Maybe if they would provide money for meetings their folks wouldn't have to have bake sales and car washes. Hard to get excited about having a meeting in a park outside in Florida in the middle of the summer where it's 100 degrees with 57% humidity because we have to find FREE places to have meetings.
Right.
But that would have meant less money in their hands.
Besides, if even the way corps were DISPOSABLE,
the people on the field were MORE DISPOSABLE.
So, you passing out was an acceptable consequence of them keeping the money.
They didn't want us to have any money or any comforts - it was like they wanted us to have a poverty mentality despite all the teachings about abundance.
No, they didn't care about your comforts or your mentality.
"Just send all the money to hq.
You?
'Believe God' for whatever else you need."
TWI defies logic. Don't worry about not being able to see the big picture. No one can. If something doesn't work for TWI, the rules change. The whole "new wineskins" and "present day truth" mentality goes on.
For TWI, the fact that it was a branch, or a WOW twig, was enough to link it to HQ. Remember how the twig was supposed to be autonomous? Such a lie! I don't ever remember twigs ever being able to do anything without having to tell the twig area coordinator, or branch coordinator. They, in turn, sent it up the way tree. Then you either got a pat on the head, or a kick in the rear. Perish the thought that you should ask God!
I have a pretty good memory of people having bake sales and car washes to raise money to send in to help pay for the VPW WOW Auditorium. They were quite successful at it, and were lovingly begged to stop after a while.
Here's a thought from someone who's been out long enough to realize how dumb she was - we shoulda had bake sales and car washes and so on to raise money for local stuff and kept our mouths shut about it.
I have a pretty good memory of people having bake sales and car washes to raise money to send in to help pay for the VPW WOW Auditorium. They were quite successful at it, and were lovingly begged to stop after a while.
Here's a thought from someone who's been out long enough to realize how dumb she was - we shoulda had bake sales and car washes and so on to raise money for local stuff and kept our mouths shut about it.
WG
I agree.
However, that presumes we accepted that hq was prepared to bend us over a chair,
and didn't care about how we got stuff done locally.
We were naive and thought they cared about US, not just our MONEY.
When I fellowshipped in Portland, Oregon, we had an old hall which we used. I don't know if it was free or extremely cheap. That building was in sad shape. It took a major cleaning every time we used it. The name of it was The Grange Hall. We jokingly called it "The Grunge Hall". Now that's an example of living the abundant life...NOT!!!!
The money is supposed to be used at the fellowship level, if you have 10 people tithing $20 every two weeks,equaling about $400/mo, that money idealy should have been used to rent the hall needed for the dinner. The rest could have been sent to the BC or Limb or HQ depending on the perceived need and desire determined by the twig coordinator, or kept at the twig level for any future needs.
The ministry became too ridgid, policy heavy, and centralized to do this.
In the younger days of the ministry perhaps they kept more $ local, does anyone here that was around in the early 70's remember if that was so and why it was changed?
I think one thing that the G**r's groups do right, is that they operate this way, with just 10% being sent to G**r. Whether you agree or not with what G**r stands for, it seems more of a fair and honest way to handle the ABS monies within a ministry.
The money is supposed to be used at the fellowship level, if you have 10 people tithing $20 every two weeks,equaling about $400/mo, that money idealy should have been used to rent the hall needed for the dinner. The rest could have been sent to the BC or Limb or HQ depending on the perceived need and desire determined by the twig coordinator, or kept at the twig level for any future needs.
The ministry became too ridgid, policy heavy, and centralized to do this.
I think one thing that the G**r's groups do right, is that they operate this way, with just 10% being sent to G**r. Whether you agree or not with what G**r stands for, it seems more of a fair and honest way to handle the ABS monies within a ministry.
I'd call that "less UNfair, and less DIShonest",
but that's a lot of money for what they're getting.
And it's not like this presented as OPTIONAL or anything.
Either 10% or you lack "the truth" because he won't give it, and only HE's got it.
Just because something is an improvement over twi does not mean I consider it "right".
Some people were arm-twisted into giving more than 10% in twi.
If they were arm-twisted into giving 8%, that is an improvement, but still not "right."
Watered Garden---------I really doubt the problem was you being "dumb". The problem was we all trusted that what we were being told was the truth and that our efforts were for the good of the whole ministry.
Running down that 2 lane country road with no lights at 5AM while normal people were racing past us to get to work----------Now THAT was dumb!
The money is supposed to be used at the fellowship level, if you have 10 people tithing $20 every two weeks,equaling about $400/mo, that money idealy should have been used to rent the hall needed for the dinner. The rest could have been sent to the BC or Limb or HQ depending on the perceived need and desire determined by the twig coordinator, or kept at the twig level for any future needs.
The ministry became too ridgid, policy heavy, and centralized to do this.
In the younger days of the ministry perhaps they kept more $ local, does anyone here that was around in the early 70's remember if that was so and why it was changed?
I think one thing that the G**r's groups do right, is that they operate this way, with just 10% being sent to G**r. Whether you agree or not with what G**r stands for, it seems more of a fair and honest way to handle the ABS monies within a ministry.
I heard a tape from the 70s of vpw reaming "the kids" because they were spending the abs on pizza and not being responsible. I guess vpw thought he could spend it better. <_<
I definately agree with you about taking care of local needs first. This is what I had in mind when I started the thread.
You asked about the early 70's. The example I cited took place in perhaps '73 or '74.
The subject of "the tithe" was covered recently on another thread so I didn't want to rehash that info. on this one anymore than needed.
Part of my thinking was this: What could possibly be wrong with demonstrating to "the world" that we were willing to do actual work to obtain our goals?
The answer to that question (IMHO) is that they(TWI HQ) were worried the outside world would perceive these efforts as a lack of tithing by participants in the ministry and more importantly:Every dollar kept at the local level was one less dollar headed for New Knoxville.
but that's a lot of money for what they're getting.
WordWolf, I suppose it is a lot of money, just to clarify, I meant 10% of the total ABS that each fellowship collects goes to G**r's operation.
This is off the topic, but perhaps charging a fee to any participant in any class that G**r develops is more equitable, however, it then in begs the question of should one charge anything at all for biblical instruction, and wouldn't the George Muller method of unsolicited donation be preferable?
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WordWolf
A) You were thinking for yourself.
B) Someone at hq didn't like it-therefore it was "wrong."
C) It would have resulted in you handling money yourselves, making a decision as to its disposition,
and executing it. twi did NOT want you getting ANY practice at that...
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Lori
I may be wrong (I haven't read any collaterals lately) but I seem to remember the reasoning behind why twi wouldn't endorse bake-sales and car-washes.
Not to say I agree with it. I don't see anything wrong with what your area was trying to do.
In VP's book, "Christians should be Prosperous", and I'm not going to quote it, but he made mention churches shouldn't have to have bake-sales and car-washes if the tithe is being operated.
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lindyhopper
I don't know, we had car washes and I know other people that did car washes.
I can see why they wouldn't want to endorce it when it had to do with raising money for a place to get together. I mean that seems pretty pathetic. I think some people had car washes to rasie money for a class or to go WOW or maybe as a witnessing "event." But, if a church doesn't have enough money to get it's people a place to have a party, that's just pathetic. Perhaps, that is why they didn't want you to do it. They wanted to be the "AMBASSADORS FOR CHRIST" not the broken down church without a church.
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Kit Sober
I was raised in a nice Christian church where the bake sales, car washes, and making and gathering stuff for "the missionaries" was a time of fun and fellowship and making money for a good cause -- to help the kids who were going on the event, the missionaries, etc. It was just nice.
I think twi didn't want to have any unlegislated nice times -- times that they didn't control.
egad that we should help someone out by raising money to help them either get to an event or even, perish the thought, help out a family or twig member that was in need.
When they made "a decision" to cancel group effort fund raising stuff I thought twi was a lot less Christian (this "decision" reached us on the wow field in 1980 i think).
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lindyhopper
Perhaps this was a localised rule of thumb, or a rule that they went back on over time.
I remember WOWs doing car washes in the early 90s.
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VeganXTC
I second what lori said. In chapter 3, entitled Plain Logic, it says that a church that has to raise money by having suppers, parties or selling things aren't tithing. I remember when the VPWWOW Auditorium (what a name!) was being built, people wanted to do things to raise money, and the kabash was put on it pretty quick.
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waysider
OK I somewhat understand the tithing logic but this event was completely local and had no connection to HQ either financially or in its' planning and organizing.
I can't see what would have been wrong with a WOW twig doing something that was confined to twig level either,for that matter.
Alas, someday perhaps I'll see the "Big Picture".
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VeganXTC
TWI defies logic. Don't worry about not being able to see the big picture. No one can. If something doesn't work for TWI, the rules change. The whole "new wineskins" and "present day truth" mentality goes on.
For TWI, the fact that it was a branch, or a WOW twig, was enough to link it to HQ. Remember how the twig was supposed to be autonomous? Such a lie! I don't ever remember twigs ever being able to do anything without having to tell the twig area coordinator, or branch coordinator. They, in turn, sent it up the way tree. Then you either got a pat on the head, or a kick in the rear. Perish the thought that you should ask God!
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GrouchoMarxJr
I think there's a lot to that statement. After Wierwille made his grand decision to centralize all the money back to New Knoxville, any attempts to make decisions locally on the "spending of money" were frowned upon. VPW wanted us to send the money, not spend the money.
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coolchef
i think new knoxville was named incorrectly
maybe they should have called it fort knox!?
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RumRunner
They would have had to change the name to Fort Apache when LCM became the number one buffoon.
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Belle
Maybe if they would provide money for meetings their folks wouldn't have to have bake sales and car washes. Hard to get excited about having a meeting in a park outside in Florida in the middle of the summer where it's 100 degrees with 57% humidity because we have to find FREE places to have meetings.
No Sh1t Sherlock! After helping set up for one of those gloriously HOT meetings (and I don't mean HOT teaching or HOT Bible or HOT fellowship) - I was near the point of heat stroke - had quit sweating and was about to get sick or pass out right there in the middle of the meeting. Just praying I didn't get called on to manifest - cause it wouldn't have been tongues with interpretation coming out of my mouth.
They didn't want us to have any money or any comforts - it was like they wanted us to have a poverty mentality despite all the teachings about abundance.
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frank123lol
Self governong,Self sustaining,and Self propagating.Yeah right!Sounded nice but shame on you if you ever tried!!
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WordWolf
Right.
But that would have meant less money in their hands.
Besides, if even the way corps were DISPOSABLE,
the people on the field were MORE DISPOSABLE.
So, you passing out was an acceptable consequence of them keeping the money.
No, they didn't care about your comforts or your mentality.
"Just send all the money to hq.
You?
'Believe God' for whatever else you need."
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Watered Garden
I have a pretty good memory of people having bake sales and car washes to raise money to send in to help pay for the VPW WOW Auditorium. They were quite successful at it, and were lovingly begged to stop after a while.
Here's a thought from someone who's been out long enough to realize how dumb she was - we shoulda had bake sales and car washes and so on to raise money for local stuff and kept our mouths shut about it.
WG
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WordWolf
I agree.
However, that presumes we accepted that hq was prepared to bend us over a chair,
and didn't care about how we got stuff done locally.
We were naive and thought they cared about US, not just our MONEY.
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Nottawayfer
When I fellowshipped in Portland, Oregon, we had an old hall which we used. I don't know if it was free or extremely cheap. That building was in sad shape. It took a major cleaning every time we used it. The name of it was The Grange Hall. We jokingly called it "The Grunge Hall". Now that's an example of living the abundant life...NOT!!!!
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now I see
The money is supposed to be used at the fellowship level, if you have 10 people tithing $20 every two weeks,equaling about $400/mo, that money idealy should have been used to rent the hall needed for the dinner. The rest could have been sent to the BC or Limb or HQ depending on the perceived need and desire determined by the twig coordinator, or kept at the twig level for any future needs.
The ministry became too ridgid, policy heavy, and centralized to do this.
In the younger days of the ministry perhaps they kept more $ local, does anyone here that was around in the early 70's remember if that was so and why it was changed?
I think one thing that the G**r's groups do right, is that they operate this way, with just 10% being sent to G**r. Whether you agree or not with what G**r stands for, it seems more of a fair and honest way to handle the ABS monies within a ministry.
Edited by but now I seeLink to comment
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WordWolf
I'd call that "less UNfair, and less DIShonest",
but that's a lot of money for what they're getting.
And it's not like this presented as OPTIONAL or anything.
Either 10% or you lack "the truth" because he won't give it, and only HE's got it.
Just because something is an improvement over twi does not mean I consider it "right".
Some people were arm-twisted into giving more than 10% in twi.
If they were arm-twisted into giving 8%, that is an improvement, but still not "right."
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waysider
Watered Garden---------I really doubt the problem was you being "dumb". The problem was we all trusted that what we were being told was the truth and that our efforts were for the good of the whole ministry.
Running down that 2 lane country road with no lights at 5AM while normal people were racing past us to get to work----------Now THAT was dumb!
OK -------Lights out."Goodnight John Boy."
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Nottawayfer
I heard a tape from the 70s of vpw reaming "the kids" because they were spending the abs on pizza and not being responsible. I guess vpw thought he could spend it better. <_<
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waysider
But now I see-----------Welcome aboard!
I definately agree with you about taking care of local needs first. This is what I had in mind when I started the thread.
You asked about the early 70's. The example I cited took place in perhaps '73 or '74.
The subject of "the tithe" was covered recently on another thread so I didn't want to rehash that info. on this one anymore than needed.
Part of my thinking was this: What could possibly be wrong with demonstrating to "the world" that we were willing to do actual work to obtain our goals?
The answer to that question (IMHO) is that they(TWI HQ) were worried the outside world would perceive these efforts as a lack of tithing by participants in the ministry and more importantly:Every dollar kept at the local level was one less dollar headed for New Knoxville.
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Jim
Give that man a cigar.
After the Doop/Heifer control consolidation, HQ controlled everything, everytime.
Back in the old days we would occasionally do something as a group, but not as an official TWI fuction to get around the legalness.
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now I see
WordWolf, I suppose it is a lot of money, just to clarify, I meant 10% of the total ABS that each fellowship collects goes to G**r's operation.
This is off the topic, but perhaps charging a fee to any participant in any class that G**r develops is more equitable, however, it then in begs the question of should one charge anything at all for biblical instruction, and wouldn't the George Muller method of unsolicited donation be preferable?
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