I just find it funny now, wasn't it GOD himself that said, "and his name shall be called JESUS"
But then, which 'Jesus' could we be speaking of? The baby Jesus, the boy Jesus, the man Jesus, the son of God Jesus, the Resurrected Jesus, the Glorified Jesus?...
No matter how old he was, his name didn't change.... Guess TWI figured out the truth
I think they did a good job on the page. If I were reading it I would have no idea it was boob grabbing, drink spiking sex cult.
I like the little pictures.
Now, if only they showed Jesus kinda fading into a motor coach with a man drinking drambue with a 3 " woody they pretty much would be honest with their advertisment
Take a close look at this page on the TWI website.
Notice anything different? Well, the first thing that caught my eye is that it's ok to say "Jesus" now. It doesn't have to be "Christ" or "Christ Jesus". Given that both VPW and LCM were both loudly opposed to the use of "Jesus", I find it very strange that it now appears to be acceptable.
After I got over the shock of that, I found the writing tone and illustrations completely out of character with the old TWI that I knew. It looks just like something you'd see in any Protestant Sunday School. It's almost as if they hired a generic Sunday School workbook writer and told her to massage a couple of scriptures into a teaching they could put up on the web.
No, this is how it always is on paper and ''legally'' with TWI. Jesus is only Christ AFTER his ascension. He is the ''humilitated one, Jesus" before (ie. growing up,teaching.........) and the exalted one '' Jesus Christ'' that our prayers end with, and that is ''they say'' where all the power lies.
Talking about him as a child and such and calling him just ''Jesus" is the norm and has been. (They want to be as accurate as possible, so there were teachings about this difference.)
The reason it seems weird in general is cuz Craig yelled so much about using the ''Christ'' part in prayers and such, so folks would end up saying Jesus Christ constantly for fear of not using it correctly!
JESUS JESUS JESUS.................................sweetest name I know.
Bliss-----------Yeah. that's how I remember it too; Jesus(The Christ) before and Christ(Jesus) after to emphasize his accomplishment and exalt his place at God's right hand.
I do see Jim's point though. It seems like they have gone out of their way to refer to him in a manner that fits with mainstream Christianity.
I did not take the time to see if the "before and after" rule was applied. I need to look at it again in that light.
The problem I see with always focusing on Christ the exalted one is that it doesn't allow us enough time to identify with Jesus the one who was human just like us.
I'm glad I was not around for TWI II when it was not OK to get to know Jesus before he validated his position as Christ.
That Christian cliche catch phrase "What would Jesus do?" actually seems more relavent than asking "What would the victorious Christ do?"
The reason it seems weird in general is cuz Craig yelled so much about using the ''Christ'' part in prayers and such, so folks would end up saying Jesus Christ constantly for fear of not using it correctly!
Are you sure they wouldn't just say it (loudly and with an exclamation point) out of pure frustration?
A few years ago I met up with some ex-way folk that I had known a little bit back in the day. They told me they had a ministry of helping people leave cults. They had some friends that I became friends with. This lady, who'd never been way, but was very close to the ex-way people I knew and had become knowledgeable about the way through these other folks' eyes.
I was riding with this other lady, my new friend, heading out to Target. She clearly had something heavy on her mind. She was very thoughtful in her choice of words. She was on a mission to help this poor former cultie (me) get over some way damage.
She asked me if I had EVER said Jesus without saying Christ right after it. She told me it's really ok with Jesus if I did. She said he wouldn't mind a bit. I know she was trying to help me, but I decided to play with her instead. I answered her, "Yes, I can." Then I said, "Well, I'm pretty sure I could."
She asked me if I was afraid to say Jesus without saying Christ. I told her no.
She kept trying to gently lead me into saying Jesus but not adding Christ, so I drug it out as long as I could. Finally she came right out and asked me to try, right then and there, to only say Jesus and not add Christ. I made a big dramatic production out of it as if it were physically straining me NOT to say Christ. I got such a kick out of it.
I did eventually tell her I was playing with her, but oh man, we sure were anal about that!
Today it doesn't bother me one bit to hear people pray to Jesus. I still don't understand praying to Mary, but I keep my thoughts to myself better these days...
Thanks for starting this thread Jim. It had been on my mind to post about "Jesus is no longer a 'dirty word'."
It took me about 3 months outside the "walls of Zion" to not respond with a more-than-slight cringe when ex-way folks used "Jesus" without "Christ." It took about 9 months for me to say that Jesus truly is the sweetest name I know.
I left twi before my hubby. I asked him after he had been out for a few months, "So is 'Jesus' still a dirty word to you?" I smiled when he responded, "Not at all."
Sad to say, most often while in twi, when the name "Jesus" was stated by itself, I felt distaste and sometimes almost disgust. :( Craig so pounded the devil spirit side of life...and even though LCM wasn't around my last 6 years in twi....the damage had been done. "Jesus" outside twi was a devil spirit. I don't know if LCM ever directly said that, but it was well implied.
Interestingly, I would wonder while in twi: Why is it that I can sing the name and it is okay, but when/if I state it, I feel like I blaspheme God and am committing idolatry? I'd dismiss that kind of thought real quick...and never had the guts (while in twi) to voice it.
Sad to say, most often while in twi, when the name "Jesus" was stated by itself, I felt distaste and sometimes almost disgust. :( Craig so pounded the devil spirit side of life...and even though LCM wasn't around my last 6 years in twi....the damage had been done. "Jesus" outside twi was a devil spirit. I don't know if LCM ever directly said that, but it was well implied.
Interestingly, I would wonder while in twi: Why is it that I can sing the name and it is okay, but when/if I state it, I feel like I blaspheme God and am committing idolatry? I'd dismiss that kind of thought real quick...and never had the guts (while in twi) to voice it.
Pipes, I know exactly how you feel. Only the distaste and disgust my ex felt wasn't just at the name "Jesus" alone, but actually grew to encompass Jesus himself. :( Since my ex is still involved, I wonder if he still feels that way.
My ex and I did ask about all the Just Plain Jesus songs in the songbook and were they going to be taken out. They just looked at us like :huh: "whatchewtalkinboutwillis?"
Whenever we lead meetings we would avoid all those songs - "Jesus, Jesus, Jesus, Sweetest Name I Know".... all of 'em. When we had to sing em...
For a research ministry - what's new in that TWI post anyway?
Back to the Loaded Words post - just before reviewing this one I'd said the expression "The Word" especially in conjunction with other words like "doing" (I didn't put "living") made the hair stand up. Well you should see my Afro now.
LOL! Twinky, I soooo relate! I can't tell you how many times I type "The Word" and then delete it to use something else - and that's two years after leaving TWI! (love the new icon, Paw!)
The other words and phrases have pretty much been eliminated and some rather easily, but for some dang reason, that one has been the hardest to eradicate from my brain and vocabulary.
Maybe I just fell in at a weird time in TWI history... Was there through most all the 90s and then some.. Yet, not once did anyone ever talk to me about this 'Jesus' and only saying it this way or that.. I was even in the Corps. Taught hundreds of times, yet it never came up.. Hmmm Was I just asleep?
I'll admit I'd heard it maybe once when I was in there that usually when written this way it referred to this or this way it referred to that, but you know, I never paid any mind to that and never taught it that way either.. Hmmm, maybe y'all were just in at the wrong time!
Course now I sometimes say Jesus, God's Messiah... Or God's Christ, Jesus.. Since if I use the word 'Christ' I like to emphasize who it was the "anointed" Him.. But that's just me..
As for 'The Word'' That was a biggie for me.. Damn near worshipped 'the Word'.. And God.. Well, it was good reading and talking about Him.. Glad to be out of that mess.. So now.. if I say anything about the written word, I usally talk about it as in 'My father said' or 'My Father had written'.... Just so I never go back to emphasizing 'The WOrd' too much.. Heck, God would very much rather have us sit in his lap and talk to him, rather than read a book about him. Tell me any of you parents wouldn't have it any other way when your kid wants to know about you?
I have been out just over two years and Pipes has been out less than that, so you must have been in a unique area. Did y'all not get the STS tapes and ragazines in your area? :blink: I'm really confused as to how you missed all that.
Thanks, It hasn't been but a few years I left myself.. But I don't think it was the area I was in, like I said, I went through the Corps program, been Wow and Way D a number of times.. All over the place.. And yeah, got the STS and Way Mag.. They kinda piled up on me and I didn't have much time for em, and once your in the Corps they just throw em on ya whether ya want em or not. What's the point of a STS tape when you are their live? Oh well, wasted resources!
Guess God just made sure I didn't have to deal with the Jesus wording finactics, but there was plenty of other things!
I pondered T & O's response today, wondering about the break down of Jesus' name into an-almost feeling of blasphamy for me. (Apparently others have felt this way too?) I pondered when/how this idolatrous association was slowly forged in my head and heart.
I'm sure (for me) it happened with LCM's reign. The breakdown was like this: TWI is the true household of God. If anyone is a true believer, they will eventually end up in this true household. Most Christians outside the true household worship Jesus as God. To worship Jesus as God is to worship the creation more than the creator (Romans 1) and is akin to homosexuality, which is the dregs of sin itself. Thus the name Jesus(without the Christ) carried with it filth, dirt, sexual vice....and was associated with all the "cathouses on every street corner in America that whore every Sunday" (or something like that).
So...I don't know if that makes any sense to anyone else. :blink: But it sort of helps me understand how my Lord's name became distasteful to me. :(
My understanding is that the name Jesus(Eshoo) is derived from Joshua(Yeshuva) and is a nickname. Also since Joshua, son of Nun; Essau(jacob's twin brother); Jesus Barabbas; Jesus Simon Magnus; etc you need the title Christ(Christos/Christus/Christe) to distinguish the different Jesus' in scripture. Also Christ Jesus was to be used for the ressurrected Messiah. And since many people are called Jesus in hispanic culture, and Josh in English does not make them God. Same for Emmanuel/Immanuel Spinoza, Karl Phillip Emmanuel Bach(JS Bach's son), Immanuel Kant,etc does not make them God either. At least as for as TWI and splinter groups are concerned. Fear was Jesus could be a name used by evil people or devil spirits/demons, so Christ was always to be used. Strange that most Christians limit that name of only saying Jesus as always being Christ and never consider otherwise. OMG, I think I am still Waybrained. LOL!
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SafariVista
I just find it funny now, wasn't it GOD himself that said, "and his name shall be called JESUS"
But then, which 'Jesus' could we be speaking of? The baby Jesus, the boy Jesus, the man Jesus, the son of God Jesus, the Resurrected Jesus, the Glorified Jesus?...
No matter how old he was, his name didn't change.... Guess TWI figured out the truth
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dmiller
I will be impressed, when twi actually says it's OK to PRAY to Jesus.
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Lifted Up
I remember way back at PFAL 77 when VPW had no problem singing and leading the outdoor evening crowd in "Turn Your Eyes Upon Jesus".
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Dot Matrix
I think they did a good job on the page. If I were reading it I would have no idea it was boob grabbing, drink spiking sex cult.
I like the little pictures.
Now, if only they showed Jesus kinda fading into a motor coach with a man drinking drambue with a 3 " woody they pretty much would be honest with their advertisment
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bliss
No, this is how it always is on paper and ''legally'' with TWI. Jesus is only Christ AFTER his ascension. He is the ''humilitated one, Jesus" before (ie. growing up,teaching.........) and the exalted one '' Jesus Christ'' that our prayers end with, and that is ''they say'' where all the power lies.
Talking about him as a child and such and calling him just ''Jesus" is the norm and has been. (They want to be as accurate as possible, so there were teachings about this difference.)
The reason it seems weird in general is cuz Craig yelled so much about using the ''Christ'' part in prayers and such, so folks would end up saying Jesus Christ constantly for fear of not using it correctly!
JESUS JESUS JESUS.................................sweetest name I know.
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waysider
Bliss-----------Yeah. that's how I remember it too; Jesus(The Christ) before and Christ(Jesus) after to emphasize his accomplishment and exalt his place at God's right hand.
I do see Jim's point though. It seems like they have gone out of their way to refer to him in a manner that fits with mainstream Christianity.
I did not take the time to see if the "before and after" rule was applied. I need to look at it again in that light.
The problem I see with always focusing on Christ the exalted one is that it doesn't allow us enough time to identify with Jesus the one who was human just like us.
I'm glad I was not around for TWI II when it was not OK to get to know Jesus before he validated his position as Christ.
That Christian cliche catch phrase "What would Jesus do?" actually seems more relavent than asking "What would the victorious Christ do?"
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Oakspear
Jeeeeeeeeeeeeeeezus!
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Dawn Redwood
Are you sure they wouldn't just say it (loudly and with an exclamation point)
out of pure frustration?
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bowtwi
A few years ago I met up with some ex-way folk that I had known a little bit back in the day. They told me they had a ministry of helping people leave cults. They had some friends that I became friends with. This lady, who'd never been way, but was very close to the ex-way people I knew and had become knowledgeable about the way through these other folks' eyes.
I was riding with this other lady, my new friend, heading out to Target. She clearly had something heavy on her mind. She was very thoughtful in her choice of words. She was on a mission to help this poor former cultie (me) get over some way damage.
She asked me if I had EVER said Jesus without saying Christ right after it. She told me it's really ok with Jesus if I did. She said he wouldn't mind a bit. I know she was trying to help me, but I decided to play with her instead. I answered her, "Yes, I can." Then I said, "Well, I'm pretty sure I could."
She asked me if I was afraid to say Jesus without saying Christ. I told her no.
She kept trying to gently lead me into saying Jesus but not adding Christ, so I drug it out as long as I could. Finally she came right out and asked me to try, right then and there, to only say Jesus and not add Christ. I made a big dramatic production out of it as if it were physically straining me NOT to say Christ. I got such a kick out of it.
I did eventually tell her I was playing with her, but oh man, we sure were anal about that!
Today it doesn't bother me one bit to hear people pray to Jesus. I still don't understand praying to Mary, but I keep my thoughts to myself better these days...
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coolchef
he shall be called Jesus
doesn't that say it all?
why didn't i question it at the time? oh, i forgot i WAS brainwashed! :wacko:
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Lifted Up
I remember that song being sung freely as well...starting during my PFAL class.
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I Love Bagpipes
Thanks for starting this thread Jim. It had been on my mind to post about "Jesus is no longer a 'dirty word'."
It took me about 3 months outside the "walls of Zion" to not respond with a more-than-slight cringe when ex-way folks used "Jesus" without "Christ." It took about 9 months for me to say that Jesus truly is the sweetest name I know.
I left twi before my hubby. I asked him after he had been out for a few months, "So is 'Jesus' still a dirty word to you?" I smiled when he responded, "Not at all."
Sad to say, most often while in twi, when the name "Jesus" was stated by itself, I felt distaste and sometimes almost disgust. :( Craig so pounded the devil spirit side of life...and even though LCM wasn't around my last 6 years in twi....the damage had been done. "Jesus" outside twi was a devil spirit. I don't know if LCM ever directly said that, but it was well implied.
Interestingly, I would wonder while in twi: Why is it that I can sing the name and it is okay, but when/if I state it, I feel like I blaspheme God and am committing idolatry? I'd dismiss that kind of thought real quick...and never had the guts (while in twi) to voice it.
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Belle
Pipes, I know exactly how you feel.
Only the distaste and disgust my ex felt wasn't just at the name "Jesus" alone, but actually grew to encompass Jesus himself. :( Since my ex is still involved, I wonder if he still feels that way.
My ex and I did ask about all the Just Plain Jesus songs in the songbook and were they going to be taken out. They just looked at us like :huh: "whatchewtalkinboutwillis?"
Whenever we lead meetings we would avoid all those songs - "Jesus, Jesus, Jesus, Sweetest Name I Know".... all of 'em. When we had to sing em...
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Twinky
For a research ministry - what's new in that TWI post anyway?
Back to the Loaded Words post - just before reviewing this one I'd said the expression "The Word" especially in conjunction with other words like "doing" (I didn't put "living") made the hair stand up. Well you should see my Afro now.
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Belle
LOL! Twinky, I soooo relate! I can't tell you how many times I type "The Word" and then delete it to use something else - and that's two years after leaving TWI!
(love the new icon, Paw!)
The other words and phrases have pretty much been eliminated and some rather easily, but for some dang reason, that one has been the hardest to eradicate from my brain and vocabulary.
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TrustAndObey
Hmmmmm...
Maybe I just fell in at a weird time in TWI history... Was there through most all the 90s and then some.. Yet, not once did anyone ever talk to me about this 'Jesus' and only saying it this way or that.. I was even in the Corps. Taught hundreds of times, yet it never came up.. Hmmm Was I just asleep?
I'll admit I'd heard it maybe once when I was in there that usually when written this way it referred to this or this way it referred to that, but you know, I never paid any mind to that and never taught it that way either.. Hmmm, maybe y'all were just in at the wrong time!
Course now I sometimes say Jesus, God's Messiah... Or God's Christ, Jesus.. Since if I use the word 'Christ' I like to emphasize who it was the "anointed" Him.. But that's just me..
As for 'The Word'' That was a biggie for me.. Damn near worshipped 'the Word'.. And God.. Well, it was good reading and talking about Him.. Glad to be out of that mess.. So now.. if I say anything about the written word, I usally talk about it as in 'My father said' or 'My Father had written'.... Just so I never go back to emphasizing 'The WOrd' too much.. Heck, God would very much rather have us sit in his lap and talk to him, rather than read a book about him. Tell me any of you parents wouldn't have it any other way when your kid wants to know about you?
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Belle
T&O, Welcome to the Cafe!
I have been out just over two years and Pipes has been out less than that, so you must have been in a unique area. Did y'all not get the STS tapes and ragazines in your area? :blink: I'm really confused as to how you missed all that.
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TrustAndObey
Belle,
Thanks, It hasn't been but a few years I left myself.. But I don't think it was the area I was in, like I said, I went through the Corps program, been Wow and Way D a number of times.. All over the place.. And yeah, got the STS and Way Mag.. They kinda piled up on me and I didn't have much time for em, and once your in the Corps they just throw em on ya whether ya want em or not. What's the point of a STS tape when you are their live? Oh well, wasted resources!
Guess God just made sure I didn't have to deal with the Jesus wording finactics, but there was plenty of other things!
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I Love Bagpipes
I pondered T & O's response today, wondering about the break down of Jesus' name into an-almost feeling of blasphamy for me. (Apparently others have felt this way too?) I pondered when/how this idolatrous association was slowly forged in my head and heart.
I'm sure (for me) it happened with LCM's reign. The breakdown was like this: TWI is the true household of God. If anyone is a true believer, they will eventually end up in this true household. Most Christians outside the true household worship Jesus as God. To worship Jesus as God is to worship the creation more than the creator (Romans 1) and is akin to homosexuality, which is the dregs of sin itself. Thus the name Jesus(without the Christ) carried with it filth, dirt, sexual vice....and was associated with all the "cathouses on every street corner in America that whore every Sunday" (or something like that).
So...I don't know if that makes any sense to anyone else. :blink: But it sort of helps me understand how my Lord's name became distasteful to me. :(
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Thomas Loy Bumgarner
My understanding is that the name Jesus(Eshoo) is derived from Joshua(Yeshuva) and is a nickname. Also since Joshua, son of Nun; Essau(jacob's twin brother); Jesus Barabbas; Jesus Simon Magnus; etc you need the title Christ(Christos/Christus/Christe) to distinguish the different Jesus' in scripture. Also Christ Jesus was to be used for the ressurrected Messiah. And since many people are called Jesus in hispanic culture, and Josh in English does not make them God. Same for Emmanuel/Immanuel Spinoza, Karl Phillip Emmanuel Bach(JS Bach's son), Immanuel Kant,etc does not make them God either. At least as for as TWI and splinter groups are concerned. Fear was Jesus could be a name used by evil people or devil spirits/demons, so Christ was always to be used. Strange that most Christians limit that name of only saying Jesus as always being Christ and never consider otherwise. OMG, I think I am still Waybrained. LOL!
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