He looked like a cross between a bozo and a lumbering ox. I was SO disappointed with his performance. Any chance of using "Athletes" as an outreach tool went right out the window.
Hey do you remember that "PFAL our Life-Style" show they did that year? Did you happen to see it? I remember it was really cool, folks LOVED it. LCM and the trustees canned it and reproved the performers for exhalting themselves, over the material.
From my POV, it was the BEST show ever done in Way Productions. Big murmur went through HQ about it. They even destroyed the tapes (video and audio) and wouldn't allow it to be seen again. People gave it standing O's when it was performed. Legitimate standing ovations, not the plastic, legalistic ones that were protocol. People, even non-believer guests, loved it.
The impressive stuff was done by the people who were actual dancers. Some of 'em were pros who actually performed on broadway.
Somebody should have confronted LCM.
I remember LCM, during his football stories telling of how difficult the transition from HS to college football was. He said that he was shocked that they taught them actual blocking techniques in college.
Knee injury or not, he was behind because he just couldn't play at the level of the kids from the higher level football programs. He said all he had to do in high school was be big & grunt & throw guys out of the way.
Btw. I wrestled too. I started in 6th grade, so I understand the 6yrs thing. I was too small to play football too, especially at the Quad A level. I played anyway, cause in Western PA, the Pittsburgh area, every baby boy, upon birth they spank your butt, slap a baby-sized football into your gut & yell in your face, "Don't cry, kid, SUCK IT UP!"
The Steelers position coaches do clinics at the area high schools. I played during the Steelers glory days of the 70's, we were taught, by the people who coached the best footabll team in the world, the SAME techiniques they were using to win Super Bowls. There is no way a guy of similar size, strength & ability could compete without technique.
Craig talked about stuff like that because it was NEW to him and he was amazed by it. It was other people using techniques, it was THEM not quitting, it was their working 24/7 on EVERY aspect of the game (that he wasn't doing) that held him back.
I have a knee injury NOW (slightly shattered bone, bruising & three torn ligaments). Surgery would have sidelined me for a year, max. My non surgical rehab plan has me scheduled to be "back" in competitive condition in what would have been 5 months from the date of the injury. I'm working myself back gradually as my knee heals & I rehab muscles in my leg that atrophied while I had to immobilize the knee for six weeks.
His injury wasn't all that bad... .... poor excuse for his lack of ability.
BTW. I'm about 32 days from my 47th B-day and about 15lbs over my playing weight in HS. LCM can confront THAT. Mr. Athlete of the Spirit, living example of Corps principal 3, MOG for our day & time, you gotta go 24/7 to get in the game & compete spiritually...looked like the Pillsbury Doughboy last time I saw him.
Judging from his own accounts, he had some talent at football,
Given what I understand about everything else he claimed about himself, I'm not so sure he had that much talent...at least as much as his team mates did. At that level of competetion practice refines your raw talent and makes it work for you...but won't do you much good if all you have is practice routines and "muscle memory".
He looked like a cross between a bozo and a lumbering ox. I was SO disappointed with his performance. Any chance of using "Athletes" as an outreach tool went right out the window.
Hey do you remember that "PFAL our Life-Style" show they did that year? Did you happen to see it? I remember it was really cool, folks LOVED it. LCM and the trustees canned it and reproved the performers for exhalting themselves, over the material.
From my POV, it was the BEST show ever done in Way Productions. Big murmur went through HQ about it. They even destroyed the tapes (video and audio) and wouldn't allow it to be seen again. People gave it standing O's when it was performed. Legitimate standing ovations, not the plastic, legalistic ones that were protocol. People, even non-believer guests, loved it.
I sure do remember that. I left in 87. So I had a lot of time out of twi by myself before WayDale. That was one of the best if not the best things I saw in twi and probably ranks up there with some of my favorite things I have seen.
It is amazing the logic behind the reproof you guys received for that. I always thought we were supposed to put 100% into every thing we did. That was done twice if I am not mistaken. Once for the in res. Then the head honchos came to see it. There were some talented people as far as show biz in the 15th corps.
SPEAKING OF TALENTED PERFORMERS: There were many talented people in the Corps, many New York stage performers. These were people who were professionally trained and seasoned. Many performed on Broadway and in prominent rolls. They were GOOD. How idiotic to think that an outstanding performance in someway exalted the performers. Their "good" would have naturally outshined the "best" of lesser trained performers. It probably would have enticed a lot more of the big wigs that top leadership enjoyed wining and dining and including in their inner circles. (Remember some of those top athletes that never went to a fellowship with regular folks! Pat Ly*n wined and dined the Pro tennis player, Paula, LCM wined and dined Tony Collins, the pro football player...just to name the couple I can think of off-hand. There were a few others that got the kid glove treatment and got top seating at dinner and ate the best of the fatted calf.
HCW: How appropriate! Genuine standing ovations over the plastic protocol ones required at the end of performances. Kind of like the plastic, mandatory thank you notes at the end of each class, where you were given no time to go home and reflect and write something with more depth than a few minutes and an index card could allow.
Translation for the comment about the class coordinator who wrongly yelled at the set-up person, "You should have been more sharp than me and covered my butt so I wouldn't look like the dumb schmuck I am." How spiritual and on top of things was that leader to forget he told someone to leave a room set up and when to be there (what else was he screwing up on the class and blaming other people for? Bet he felt real spiritual carrying out old CP#3.
Corps Training often was simply handing a deranged or egomaniacal person a loaded gun.
I am sure to this day the BOD still feel no need to apologize to the thousands of people that were trampled on. Those folks are gone, move on and never look like you have egg on your face. If those folks who left were more spiritual, or forgiving, or not into minding anyone's business but their own, they'd be seating in those classes, abundantly sharing and still a part of the ministry that endorses the teachings of someone who is long gone and apparantly didn't believe what he taught (where is he now?).
Many Corps felt it was a privilege to teach TWAP class after lcm was kicked from the chicken farm. Amazing that not one person questioned what he TAUGHT that he is not living up to.
WATERED GARDEN: You were not spineless. You had displaced loyalty. You were duped by those who wanted to be adored. (Hmmm...who else sought that adoration over God?)
You see, like most of you, you came and stayed because you believed this was "God's Ministry". It was drummed into our heads that our leadership stood for God and was there to help us. We were helping "our ministry". Spineless is only when you really believe something is wrong but go along with it anyway.
People like that BC use a person's love for God and make it a win-win situation for them. "I stand for God, if you love God you will support me as God does." You are trying to serve God, they are serving their own bellies.
HCW: From what I heard, LCM was asked by some ofthe dancers to do that part. I think originally they were considering Hayward Chap***l, who I thought was a little stiff as a dancer, but he had done the other Athletes dance before. Anyway, when they kept trying to think who would come across dynamically enough (like Craig, not Jesus Christ), they asked the meister himself to perform, and he did.
I remember him walking in the lobby of the Auditorium, in all his tan and muscular glory because he was still doing his health routine from performing Athletes. I saw the looks he got from some of the ladies. Probably had his pick. (Ugh...sorry for all the married and single one's that he abused with his position).
I can agree to that to a point. Most of corps where believers and they just wanted to excel to help people. No it was not for everybody. When you came out of corps you had to lead. Even some that graduated were not leaders. IMHO that was ok. Having said that.
People from the corps had pressure to produce. Some without the natural leadership ability thougt they had to just bully their way. Some were great believers. Some because of pressure had to be arseholes. Those that could produce with love with in love and had the "Know how" to deal with people did fine. Some IMHO did have spiritual problems and made it to the top.
Some of the people I knew in the corps were fine people. Some I saw turn into jerks. That was because of pressure from leadership.
Damn if people would leave people alone and let them do things, IMHO things would have been so much better. I know twi talked about ( long suites ). They never let a lot expose those to let twi grow. Now agree with twi on not letting people going there own way. Companies today do not let that happen, with good reason. TWI sure took away alot from an individule so they could not play with their strong suite. So some had to go into nazi mode to find favor with twi. Even they could not stomach that and left.
I just noticed your avitar. That is sick! BUt funny...haha!
And, I read the first page of this, and all I cxan say is that I am really thankful that I was kicked out in 1990. If I had not been, and had been "grilled" as you described on your first post, I am almost certain that I would have comitted an assault on the interrogator, and then have gone to jail.
TWI I didn't resemble this picture that you have painted, at least not on the field....
Johnny Lingo, This type of grilling (and worse) happened to me in twi 1 out on the field. I think that a lot of it depended on where/who you were. The meanness was there all along in pockets.... the poison was just allowed to spread in twi 2 because by then, the bullies had run out anyone likely to oppose their thuggish tactics.
Talking about LCM and his so called football career, I remember being told that at one point LCM broke his leg during a game but played the rest of the game with a broken leg.
Mr. H, I thought your avatar looked like an airplane pilot but now it looks like you've got black boogers coming out of your nose and some drool on your chin!!
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HCW
Yeah Justloafing;
He looked like a cross between a bozo and a lumbering ox. I was SO disappointed with his performance. Any chance of using "Athletes" as an outreach tool went right out the window.
Hey do you remember that "PFAL our Life-Style" show they did that year? Did you happen to see it? I remember it was really cool, folks LOVED it. LCM and the trustees canned it and reproved the performers for exhalting themselves, over the material.
From my POV, it was the BEST show ever done in Way Productions. Big murmur went through HQ about it. They even destroyed the tapes (video and audio) and wouldn't allow it to be seen again. People gave it standing O's when it was performed. Legitimate standing ovations, not the plastic, legalistic ones that were protocol. People, even non-believer guests, loved it.
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HCW
The impressive stuff was done by the people who were actual dancers. Some of 'em were pros who actually performed on broadway.
Somebody should have confronted LCM.
I remember LCM, during his football stories telling of how difficult the transition from HS to college football was. He said that he was shocked that they taught them actual blocking techniques in college.
Knee injury or not, he was behind because he just couldn't play at the level of the kids from the higher level football programs. He said all he had to do in high school was be big & grunt & throw guys out of the way.
Btw. I wrestled too. I started in 6th grade, so I understand the 6yrs thing. I was too small to play football too, especially at the Quad A level. I played anyway, cause in Western PA, the Pittsburgh area, every baby boy, upon birth they spank your butt, slap a baby-sized football into your gut & yell in your face, "Don't cry, kid, SUCK IT UP!"
The Steelers position coaches do clinics at the area high schools. I played during the Steelers glory days of the 70's, we were taught, by the people who coached the best footabll team in the world, the SAME techiniques they were using to win Super Bowls. There is no way a guy of similar size, strength & ability could compete without technique.
Craig talked about stuff like that because it was NEW to him and he was amazed by it. It was other people using techniques, it was THEM not quitting, it was their working 24/7 on EVERY aspect of the game (that he wasn't doing) that held him back.
I have a knee injury NOW (slightly shattered bone, bruising & three torn ligaments). Surgery would have sidelined me for a year, max. My non surgical rehab plan has me scheduled to be "back" in competitive condition in what would have been 5 months from the date of the injury. I'm working myself back gradually as my knee heals & I rehab muscles in my leg that atrophied while I had to immobilize the knee for six weeks.
His injury wasn't all that bad... .... poor excuse for his lack of ability.
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HCW
BTW. I'm about 32 days from my 47th B-day and about 15lbs over my playing weight in HS. LCM can confront THAT. Mr. Athlete of the Spirit, living example of Corps principal 3, MOG for our day & time, you gotta go 24/7 to get in the game & compete spiritually...looked like the Pillsbury Doughboy last time I saw him.
I'm spiritually weak. A Greasespot. Right?
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WordWolf
According to his own words, lcm said
"I got a Bachelor's Degree. In Psychology."
So, I take it that this was his major, and he completed the Bachelors.
Looking back,
he's mentioned trying to learn how to perform a proper block in college,
a move which took 6 steps. (Tape 1055, "Believing Images of Victory.")
He mentioned what you already said-
that in high school, there was no technique-just brute force.
"It was just caveman against caveman."
Apparently, he did not excel when finesse was called for.
Now that the question is raised, I wonder if lcm just disregarded when
he'd been taught precision before. That's because I took martial arts
when I was young, and I earned my varsity letter in Fencing
(which is a LOT more work than most people think from the old movies.)
Both of them had moves that had to be learned with exacting precision.
So, when I learned to fence, I had to learn a whole new way of moving,
thinking and reacting. However, since I'd already had a basis for
learning physical moves when I was younger, I knew that it would only be
a matter of putting in the hours (and hours) of practice and repetition.
I never became a local legend or anything (except to maybe 2 opponents),
but I made a respectable showing for myself, and did well against the
Division Champ before I gave it up to spend more time with twi.
So, I did make it "off the bench", and earned respect from my peers,
at least.
Did lcm not put in the necessary time to learn the moves precisely,
or did he have a problem learning altogether?
"Body-memory" does not require a special education. If he learned the
right moves correctly, they should have been habitual to him when he
stepped out on the field. Instead, a knee injury sidelined him.
Judging from his own accounts, he had some talent at football, but he
seems to have lacked the dedication to rise to the top of the class.
Of course, the skill of his coach is also a consideration, but it seems
obvious the rest of the team excelled since they made it to the Orange
Bowl....
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krys
Given what I understand about everything else he claimed about himself, I'm not so sure he had that much talent...at least as much as his team mates did. At that level of competetion practice refines your raw talent and makes it work for you...but won't do you much good if all you have is practice routines and "muscle memory".
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houseisarockin
While I was considering confronting someone myself outside of the meeting I was called to by my wc-bc I was told "God covered a multitude of sins."
(to give more details will identify myself)
In that same meeting I was also told "information moves slowly because of the spiritual efforts to make sure it is accurate."
(this after I told them something they should have known before I did, and again to give more details...)
I wondered had they considered the things said in that meeting. And their loyalty to blindness. But the last I heard they still wore the arm banner.
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justloafing
I sure do remember that. I left in 87. So I had a lot of time out of twi by myself before WayDale. That was one of the best if not the best things I saw in twi and probably ranks up there with some of my favorite things I have seen.
It is amazing the logic behind the reproof you guys received for that. I always thought we were supposed to put 100% into every thing we did. That was done twice if I am not mistaken. Once for the in res. Then the head honchos came to see it. There were some talented people as far as show biz in the 15th corps.
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justwannabeme
SPEAKING OF TALENTED PERFORMERS: There were many talented people in the Corps, many New York stage performers. These were people who were professionally trained and seasoned. Many performed on Broadway and in prominent rolls. They were GOOD. How idiotic to think that an outstanding performance in someway exalted the performers. Their "good" would have naturally outshined the "best" of lesser trained performers. It probably would have enticed a lot more of the big wigs that top leadership enjoyed wining and dining and including in their inner circles. (Remember some of those top athletes that never went to a fellowship with regular folks! Pat Ly*n wined and dined the Pro tennis player, Paula, LCM wined and dined Tony Collins, the pro football player...just to name the couple I can think of off-hand. There were a few others that got the kid glove treatment and got top seating at dinner and ate the best of the fatted calf.
HCW: How appropriate! Genuine standing ovations over the plastic protocol ones required at the end of performances. Kind of like the plastic, mandatory thank you notes at the end of each class, where you were given no time to go home and reflect and write something with more depth than a few minutes and an index card could allow.
Translation for the comment about the class coordinator who wrongly yelled at the set-up person, "You should have been more sharp than me and covered my butt so I wouldn't look like the dumb schmuck I am." How spiritual and on top of things was that leader to forget he told someone to leave a room set up and when to be there (what else was he screwing up on the class and blaming other people for? Bet he felt real spiritual carrying out old CP#3.
Corps Training often was simply handing a deranged or egomaniacal person a loaded gun.
I am sure to this day the BOD still feel no need to apologize to the thousands of people that were trampled on. Those folks are gone, move on and never look like you have egg on your face. If those folks who left were more spiritual, or forgiving, or not into minding anyone's business but their own, they'd be seating in those classes, abundantly sharing and still a part of the ministry that endorses the teachings of someone who is long gone and apparantly didn't believe what he taught (where is he now?).
Many Corps felt it was a privilege to teach TWAP class after lcm was kicked from the chicken farm. Amazing that not one person questioned what he TAUGHT that he is not living up to.
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justwannabeme
WATERED GARDEN: You were not spineless. You had displaced loyalty. You were duped by those who wanted to be adored. (Hmmm...who else sought that adoration over God?)
You see, like most of you, you came and stayed because you believed this was "God's Ministry". It was drummed into our heads that our leadership stood for God and was there to help us. We were helping "our ministry". Spineless is only when you really believe something is wrong but go along with it anyway.
People like that BC use a person's love for God and make it a win-win situation for them. "I stand for God, if you love God you will support me as God does." You are trying to serve God, they are serving their own bellies.
HCW: From what I heard, LCM was asked by some ofthe dancers to do that part. I think originally they were considering Hayward Chap***l, who I thought was a little stiff as a dancer, but he had done the other Athletes dance before. Anyway, when they kept trying to think who would come across dynamically enough (like Craig, not Jesus Christ), they asked the meister himself to perform, and he did.
I remember him walking in the lobby of the Auditorium, in all his tan and muscular glory because he was still doing his health routine from performing Athletes. I saw the looks he got from some of the ladies. Probably had his pick. (Ugh...sorry for all the married and single one's that he abused with his position).
Sorry to derail.
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Cowgirl
Very well put!!
Cowgirl
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justloafing
I can agree to that to a point. Most of corps where believers and they just wanted to excel to help people. No it was not for everybody. When you came out of corps you had to lead. Even some that graduated were not leaders. IMHO that was ok. Having said that.
People from the corps had pressure to produce. Some without the natural leadership ability thougt they had to just bully their way. Some were great believers. Some because of pressure had to be arseholes. Those that could produce with love with in love and had the "Know how" to deal with people did fine. Some IMHO did have spiritual problems and made it to the top.
Some of the people I knew in the corps were fine people. Some I saw turn into jerks. That was because of pressure from leadership.
Damn if people would leave people alone and let them do things, IMHO things would have been so much better. I know twi talked about ( long suites ). They never let a lot expose those to let twi grow. Now agree with twi on not letting people going there own way. Companies today do not let that happen, with good reason. TWI sure took away alot from an individule so they could not play with their strong suite. So some had to go into nazi mode to find favor with twi. Even they could not stomach that and left.
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J0nny Ling0
Just Loafing-
I just noticed your avitar. That is sick! BUt funny...haha!
And, I read the first page of this, and all I cxan say is that I am really thankful that I was kicked out in 1990. If I had not been, and had been "grilled" as you described on your first post, I am almost certain that I would have comitted an assault on the interrogator, and then have gone to jail.
TWI I didn't resemble this picture that you have painted, at least not on the field....
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rascal
Johnny Lingo, This type of grilling (and worse) happened to me in twi 1 out on the field. I think that a lot of it depended on where/who you were. The meanness was there all along in pockets.... the poison was just allowed to spread in twi 2 because by then, the bullies had run out anyone likely to oppose their thuggish tactics.
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justloafing
I mean it to be funny. If there is someone that has a problem with it. PM me. I can change it. It really is not a big deal.
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A la prochaine
OK,
Talking about LCM and his so called football career, I remember being told that at one point LCM broke his leg during a game but played the rest of the game with a broken leg.
Is this true?
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Ham
Probably tripped trying to find the bench to sit on..
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A la prochaine
Mr. H,
YOU ARE A FUNNY MAN!
(tho, i must admit...your avitar to me looks like a woman???
-->)
Is it just me?
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Ham
I hope it's just you, heh heh. I actually though it looked a little bit like Joe Walsh in his younger days.
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Ham
Mr. Cool himself.. Joe Walsh is actually a Ham radio operator. WB6ACU.. one of my heroes from the early seventies.. heh heh.
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Ham
If it really is a woman, why don't people tell me these things!!! heh heh.
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outandabout
Doesn't look male or female to me.
And it IS funny, in a sick way like Johnny Lingo said, but funny.
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Ham
OK.. now if it updates, there won't be any question! Heh heh heh heh.
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Ham
Pew- one ugly "girl" heh heh.
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Cowgirl
Mr. H, I thought your avatar looked like an airplane pilot but now it looks like you've got black boogers coming out of your nose and some drool on your chin!!
Cowgirl
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