I remember that, Mo. I also remember praying "if it's Your will...." once after re-evaluating that teaching.... boy, oh, boy did I get my a$$ chewed for that!! You'd have thought I committed blasphemy! Of COURSE it's God's will! He wants to bless us.... How DARE you say "IF it's God's will?!?!?!"
Soooooooo glad I don't have so much legalism, yelling and condeming in my life anymore. Ahhhhh, the sweet life outside the walls of TWI.... amazing how many more prayers get answered these days.
Yes, Templelady, this is the BIGGEST issue I had after leaving, and now to me is the most awful issue within the TWI mindset. All it did was breed arrogance and/or condemnation.
In order to have a relationship with God, you need to ask, talk, share, PRAISE HIM, for things. Thanking Him for things I WANT is ludicris. I do thank Him for the things He blesses me with, like you. I am so set free from this and it is a beautiful thing.
Jesus said to ASK, so that is what I do. It is GOD's perogative whether He gives it to me or not....................
that was part of the conversation I had with a clergy, he toldme and I quote "JUST tell God.." to dismiss me without concern for my person.
well i was willing to be conseled by him then, Yet I have known Jesus since a very young child and I couldnt do it.
I said well I do not really "tell God" anything I am praying for HIM to tell me what to do".
and he mused and muffled and calmed down .
he was the same clergy that marked me . today I am even more certain I need a Father who knows best. when I pray I ask what to do I ask for forgivness. jesus says ASK for forgiveness and it will be given to you not demand anything.
I do not think I am entitled to anything from God yet by His grace and mercy I can pray and hope in all of his goodness that Jesus will guide my choices to be in HIs will for my life.
Heartman----------You may be thinking of Phil. 4:6
Be careful(anxious) for nothing: but in every thing by prayer and supplication with thanksgiving let your requests(petitions) be known unto God.
According to The Merriam and Webster Dictionary,supplication is to ask in a way that is both earnest(intensely serious) and humble(not proud or haughty).
It's pretty hard to be humble and tell God how to do His job all at the same time.The red curtain example is ludicrous because it is predetermining for God how he should do His job of finding the best available apartment or house or whatever the example was.
VPW strung together a whole slew of scriptures that can be found using a concordance to support his claim that we controlled how God would bless us by using the (non-biblical) "power of believing" And that we had already been granted these requests but simply had to lay claim to them to receive them. Quite a few of the scriptures used can be found in Ephesians.
Looking at some of these teachings in retrospect, it appears to me they were simply a ploy to degrade other religions for reciting The Lord's Prayer and thus create an attitude of elitism.
With that being said,let me just say that God certainly can and does answer prayers but to tell Him how to do His job is,In fact,limiting him which is contrary to what was supposedly being taught in those PFAL examples.
from Wordwolf, James 4:2, is one of my favorites. In "The Message" (a translation of the Bible that was written by a youth minister in the language of the kids he was working with) James 4:2 comes out, "You wouldn’t think of just asking God for it, would you? And why not? Because you know you’d be asking for what you have no right to. You’re spoiled children, each wanting your own way."
Basically I am finding that whatever is prefaced with, "in pfal," or "as vpw said," or similar whine-skins, should be wiped out because those words wipe out logical thought.
If I can't say something because it's from my knowledge of the Lord, or from someone who is living or has lived a life in Christl, etc. then maybe I should not repeat it. Ha ha on all those "one-liners" that were plagarized from men who really walked with the Lord.
I would think that the same pattern that we use in life would also work in prayer.
For things already given us or things that we have been told are forthcoming thanks would be in order
for things we don't yet have asking would seem to be the thing to do
This is a childhood lesson if we are given a cookie we say thank you if we don't yet have a cookie and would like one we ask. We don't ask by saying thank you for giving me a cookie we say please may I have a cookie. Seems simple enough.
This came about as a result of the believing/faith teachings. It was supposed to be a affirmation of believing that God would bring to pass that which we asked another words I am sure it will come to pass so I'll say thanks now in advance.
I agree with Whitedove, but I've gotten many prayers answered by thanking God for stuff that hadn't happened yet. I never did that with the attitude that I could order God around, though.
Again, so glad that I am gaining my mind back to be able to, once again, grasp such intricate concepts as ask, receive, and then say thank you.
My mother did teach me this, but then in the logic of the twi cult mind set, I had exchanged the "ask receive and say thank you" logic for "say thank you and then receive."
I do understand the holy way of trusting the Lord in His goodness, and that goodness, and attendant blessings, are always with us. And I do thank Him for His goodness, upon every remembrance.
What's that saying, "a bird in the hand is worth two in the bush" or something like that?
IMO, I give thanks once the bird is in the hand not while it's still in the bush. I may be perfectly confident that I'm going to get those two birds, but until they're in my hand, I'm still just asking for them. Same thing with prayers, imo.
How many times in TWI did we "thank" God for something that didn't come to pass? Just as many, if not more, than when it did come to pass, most likely. I prefer to respectfully ask for things and enthusiastically be thankful for them after I actually receive/see it come to pass.
damn to think how arrogant and so full of ourselves we were
Yes I was, and can recall with clarity, my egotistical, smarty pants reaction to another person's sincere, concise prayer to God... as if God knew I could teach them how to do it right ...
Please forgive me, I'm unlearning, and it may take a bit more time
What's that saying, "a bird in the hand is worth two in the bush" or something like that?
IMO, I give thanks once the bird is in the hand not while it's still in the bush. I may be perfectly confident that I'm going to get those two birds, but until they're in my hand, I'm still just asking for them. Same thing with prayers, imo.
How many times in TWI did we "thank" God for something that didn't come to pass? Just as many, if not more, than when it did come to pass, most likely. I prefer to respectfully ask for things and enthusiastically be thankful for them after I actually receive/see it come to pass.
Right.
See, this is called "Argument by Selective Observation,"
also called cherry picking, the enumeration of favorable circumstances, or as the philosopher Francis Bacon described it, counting the hits and forgetting the misses. For example, a state boasts of the Presidents it has produced, but is silent about its serial killers. Or, the claim "Technology brings happiness". (Now, there's something with hits and misses.)
Casinos encourage this human tendency. There are bells and whistles to announce slot machine jackpots, but losing happens silently. This makes it much easier to think that the odds of winning are good. "
Saying "thanking God for stuff gets results" and ignoring all the times "thanking God for stuff DIDN'T get
results" is "counting the hits and forgetting the misses."
It's supposing this works as a principle when it utterly FAILS as a principle.
Who would count as trustworthy a safety system that saved your life "at least 1/2 the time"?
A principle or guiding rule has to work almost all the time,
and a supposed LAW has to work 100% of the time, no exceptions.
Further, anecdotes are hardly scientific.
Thanking God in advance for a good parking space, then finding a good parking space,
is hardly "confirmation" that the "thanking" did ANYTHING.
I think the reason I found this doctrine so seductive is that I had had it drilled into my head since childhood that I really wasn't good enough for God to do anything for me. I was even told in my teens by one minister that God was ignoring me because I couldn't accept the doctrine of the Trinity without question.
So when this doctrine popped up on the radar It was like a a 100 foot high wall 2 miles thick made of titanium between me and God in terms of asking and receiving had been blasted to smithereens
damn to think how arrogant and so full of ourselvs we were
to think we could demand of God!
did i say brain washed?
Thank God for what we have now
freedom from from the corn field!!
EXACTLY my sentiments, coolchef!!!!!!!
I still catch myself saying "Thank you for such & such" instead of ASKING and wanting HIS will to be done in my life, then I immediately correct myself. I have been out since 1994 and I still have waybrain periodically. YUCK!!!!!!!!!!
I can't resist CF - look up the old horror movie "Children of the Corn" on Wikipedia - and follow the link to "Chritian Cults" - LOLOL No direct refs to TWI but it was kinda of funny...
Anyone remember the TWI teaching that said we were not to ask GOD for anything just thank him?
the logic went He already had granted our every wish so all we had to do is thank him for it.
Personally that has been a hard attitude to shake...
...But remembering to ask rather than take for granted has been a big challenge for me
Any thoughts or experiences in this area?
Yup, TempleLady - you've struck a big note there with me!....Oh boy - I think back on my TWI prayer life - how presumptuous! How self-centered! My oh my how we'd boss God around ...One day not long after splitting from Waysville I was reading James 4:13-15 where it talks about people who have money-making ideas and big plans - but they don't know what tomorrow brings. Verse 15 says [with emphasis on the part that kicked me in the butt in bold red] "Instead, you ought to say, "If the Lord wills, we shall live and also do this or that."
quote: I think the reason I found this doctrine so seductive is that I had had it drilled into my head since childhood that I really wasn't good enough for God to do anything for me.
BINGO!!!!!
Naw, TL, you're good enough, I didn't mean that. But VP grew up in an environment where many felt unworthy to ask God for stuff that was OK to ask for. VP wanted to reverse that.
But VP grew up in an environment where many felt unworthy to ask God for stuff that was OK to ask for. VP wanted to reverse that
And then Mr. Martindale reversed many right back to square one, not only could they not ask for"stuff" but could not even ask for God to spit on them........ :blink:
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heartman
Dosent the Word say something about Pray with all supplications---meaning specific request---????
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Belle
I remember that, Mo. I also remember praying "if it's Your will...." once after re-evaluating that teaching.... boy, oh, boy did I get my a$$ chewed for that!! You'd have thought I committed blasphemy! Of COURSE it's God's will! He wants to bless us....
How DARE you say "IF it's God's will?!?!?!"
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SafariVista
Mark 11:24
Therefore, I say unto you, What things soever, ye desire, when ye pray, believe that ye receive them, and ye shall have them.
I think this is one of the verses that 'teaching' came from... if you believe it, it's yours, just thank him.
This teaching doesn't line up with other verses in the Bible, and is yet another area that needs some more thinking and 'work' <_<
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bliss
Yes, Templelady, this is the BIGGEST issue I had after leaving, and now to me is the most awful issue within the TWI mindset. All it did was breed arrogance and/or condemnation.
In order to have a relationship with God, you need to ask, talk, share, PRAISE HIM, for things. Thanking Him for things I WANT is ludicris. I do thank Him for the things He blesses me with, like you. I am so set free from this and it is a beautiful thing.
Jesus said to ASK, so that is what I do. It is GOD's perogative whether He gives it to me or not....................
and it ain't cuz of MY BELIEVING!!!!!! :blink:
See how much pressure it takes off you???
Awesome.
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pond
that was part of the conversation I had with a clergy, he toldme and I quote "JUST tell God.." to dismiss me without concern for my person.
well i was willing to be conseled by him then, Yet I have known Jesus since a very young child and I couldnt do it.
I said well I do not really "tell God" anything I am praying for HIM to tell me what to do".
and he mused and muffled and calmed down .
he was the same clergy that marked me . today I am even more certain I need a Father who knows best. when I pray I ask what to do I ask for forgivness. jesus says ASK for forgiveness and it will be given to you not demand anything.
I do not think I am entitled to anything from God yet by His grace and mercy I can pray and hope in all of his goodness that Jesus will guide my choices to be in HIs will for my life.
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waysider
Heartman----------You may be thinking of Phil. 4:6
Be careful(anxious) for nothing: but in every thing by prayer and supplication with thanksgiving let your requests(petitions) be known unto God.
According to The Merriam and Webster Dictionary,supplication is to ask in a way that is both earnest(intensely serious) and humble(not proud or haughty).
It's pretty hard to be humble and tell God how to do His job all at the same time.The red curtain example is ludicrous because it is predetermining for God how he should do His job of finding the best available apartment or house or whatever the example was.
VPW strung together a whole slew of scriptures that can be found using a concordance to support his claim that we controlled how God would bless us by using the (non-biblical) "power of believing" And that we had already been granted these requests but simply had to lay claim to them to receive them. Quite a few of the scriptures used can be found in Ephesians.
Looking at some of these teachings in retrospect, it appears to me they were simply a ploy to degrade other religions for reciting The Lord's Prayer and thus create an attitude of elitism.
With that being said,let me just say that God certainly can and does answer prayers but to tell Him how to do His job is,In fact,limiting him which is contrary to what was supposedly being taught in those PFAL examples.
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WordWolf
James 4:2
"Ye lust, and have not: ye kill, and desire to have, and cannot obtain: ye fight and war, yet ye have not, because ye ask not"
Somehow,
I don't see the "believe God for perfect health" thing working for vpw.
He didn't ask, and did whatever, and then dropped dead young.
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SafariVista
That's right WordWolf, Mr Wierwille's 'way' doesn't work, his life tells the 'story', and it just isn't very good, with a real bad ending!
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Kit Sober
from Wordwolf, James 4:2, is one of my favorites. In "The Message" (a translation of the Bible that was written by a youth minister in the language of the kids he was working with) James 4:2 comes out, "You wouldn’t think of just asking God for it, would you? And why not? Because you know you’d be asking for what you have no right to. You’re spoiled children, each wanting your own way."
Basically I am finding that whatever is prefaced with, "in pfal," or "as vpw said," or similar whine-skins, should be wiped out because those words wipe out logical thought.
If I can't say something because it's from my knowledge of the Lord, or from someone who is living or has lived a life in Christl, etc. then maybe I should not repeat it. Ha ha on all those "one-liners" that were plagarized from men who really walked with the Lord.
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WhiteDove
I would think that the same pattern that we use in life would also work in prayer.
For things already given us or things that we have been told are forthcoming thanks would be in order
for things we don't yet have asking would seem to be the thing to do
This is a childhood lesson if we are given a cookie we say thank you if we don't yet have a cookie and would like one we ask. We don't ask by saying thank you for giving me a cookie we say please may I have a cookie. Seems simple enough.
This came about as a result of the believing/faith teachings. It was supposed to be a affirmation of believing that God would bring to pass that which we asked another words I am sure it will come to pass so I'll say thanks now in advance.
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johniam
I agree with Whitedove, but I've gotten many prayers answered by thanking God for stuff that hadn't happened yet. I never did that with the attitude that I could order God around, though.
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Kit Sober
Again, so glad that I am gaining my mind back to be able to, once again, grasp such intricate concepts as ask, receive, and then say thank you.
My mother did teach me this, but then in the logic of the twi cult mind set, I had exchanged the "ask receive and say thank you" logic for "say thank you and then receive."
I do understand the holy way of trusting the Lord in His goodness, and that goodness, and attendant blessings, are always with us. And I do thank Him for His goodness, upon every remembrance.
Thankful and still hoping,
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Belle
What's that saying, "a bird in the hand is worth two in the bush" or something like that?
IMO, I give thanks once the bird is in the hand not while it's still in the bush. I may be perfectly confident that I'm going to get those two birds, but until they're in my hand, I'm still just asking for them. Same thing with prayers, imo.
How many times in TWI did we "thank" God for something that didn't come to pass? Just as many, if not more, than when it did come to pass, most likely. I prefer to respectfully ask for things and enthusiastically be thankful for them after I actually receive/see it come to pass.
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coolchef
damn to think how arrogant and so full of ourselvs we were
to think we could demand of God!
did i say brain washed?
Thank God for what we have now
freedom from from the corn field!!
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SafariVista
CoolChef said:
Yes I was, and can recall with clarity, my egotistical, smarty pants reaction to another person's sincere, concise prayer to God... as if God knew I could teach them how to do it right ...
Please forgive me, I'm unlearning, and it may take a bit more time
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WordWolf
Right.
See, this is called "Argument by Selective Observation,"
or "Cherry-Picking",
or "counting the hits and ignoring the misses."
http://www.don-lindsay-archive.org/skeptic...html#selective#
"Argument By Selective Observation:
also called cherry picking, the enumeration of favorable circumstances, or as the philosopher Francis Bacon described it, counting the hits and forgetting the misses. For example, a state boasts of the Presidents it has produced, but is silent about its serial killers. Or, the claim "Technology brings happiness". (Now, there's something with hits and misses.)
Casinos encourage this human tendency. There are bells and whistles to announce slot machine jackpots, but losing happens silently. This makes it much easier to think that the odds of winning are good. "
Saying "thanking God for stuff gets results" and ignoring all the times "thanking God for stuff DIDN'T get
results" is "counting the hits and forgetting the misses."
It's supposing this works as a principle when it utterly FAILS as a principle.
Who would count as trustworthy a safety system that saved your life "at least 1/2 the time"?
A principle or guiding rule has to work almost all the time,
and a supposed LAW has to work 100% of the time, no exceptions.
Further, anecdotes are hardly scientific.
Thanking God in advance for a good parking space, then finding a good parking space,
is hardly "confirmation" that the "thanking" did ANYTHING.
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templelady
I think the reason I found this doctrine so seductive is that I had had it drilled into my head since childhood that I really wasn't good enough for God to do anything for me. I was even told in my teens by one minister that God was ignoring me because I couldn't accept the doctrine of the Trinity without question.
So when this doctrine popped up on the radar It was like a a 100 foot high wall 2 miles thick made of titanium between me and God in terms of asking and receiving had been blasted to smithereens
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SafariVista
TempleLady... that was one BIG wall!
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act2
EXACTLY my sentiments, coolchef!!!!!!!
I still catch myself saying "Thank you for such & such" instead of ASKING and wanting HIS will to be done in my life, then I immediately correct myself. I have been out since 1994 and I still have waybrain periodically. YUCK!!!!!!!!!!
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RumRunner
I can't resist CF - look up the old horror movie "Children of the Corn" on Wikipedia - and follow the link to "Chritian Cults" - LOLOL No direct refs to TWI but it was kinda of funny...
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dmiller
Heartman --- welcome to GreaseSpot. :)
Yes it does. -- it's Ephesians 6:18.
Eph 6:18 Praying always with all prayer and supplication in the Spirit,
and watching thereunto with all perseverance and supplication for all saints;
Prayer (by it's very definition) means TO ASK.
Praying (proseuchomai) always with all prayer (proseuche)
and supplication (deesis) in the Spirit, and watching thereunto with all perseverance and supplication (deesis) for all saints;
3 different words used for it. One verb, 2 nouns.
proseuchomai is praying to God;
proseuche is prayer to God, recognizing His power to answer; and
deesis is petition for a specific need.
(definitions from Bullinger)
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T-Bone
Yup, TempleLady - you've struck a big note there with me!....Oh boy - I think back on my TWI prayer life - how presumptuous! How self-centered! My oh my how we'd boss God around ...One day not long after splitting from Waysville I was reading James 4:13-15 where it talks about people who have money-making ideas and big plans - but they don't know what tomorrow brings. Verse 15 says [with emphasis on the part that kicked me in the butt in bold red] "Instead, you ought to say, "If the Lord wills, we shall live and also do this or that."
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johniam
quote: I think the reason I found this doctrine so seductive is that I had had it drilled into my head since childhood that I really wasn't good enough for God to do anything for me.
BINGO!!!!!
Naw, TL, you're good enough, I didn't mean that. But VP grew up in an environment where many felt unworthy to ask God for stuff that was OK to ask for. VP wanted to reverse that.
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WhiteDove
And then Mr. Martindale reversed many right back to square one, not only could they not ask for"stuff" but could not even ask for God to spit on them........ :blink:
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