You have the right definition for veganism. Its really not as hard to be vegan as you might think. I don't think I eat or look that much different than you.
For breakfast, I'll have some cereal. In the winter, I like oatmeal with a little flax or wheatgerm, and I'll throw some raisins or bananas or berries in it. I cook it with water. In summer, I'll have cold cereal, usually bran flakes, with the same additions as my oatmeal. I use Silk vanilla soy milk on top. Or I'll have some toast, with peanut butter, or Earth Balance (a vegan margarine). Or a bagel with peanut butter or Tofutti Better than Cream Cheese. Or, I'll make a smoothie with fruit and juice. If I have lots of time, I'll make a tofu scramble. Its crumbles tofu with lots of spices.
For lunch, its usually leftover dinner. Or I'll make a wrap, with veggies and beans or hummus wrapped in a tortilla. Or a sandwich, with the same ingredients as my wrap. Or a veggie burger. Or a vegetable soup with a tomato or vegetable broth base. Or a salad. I'll throw beans or tofu in my salad along with the veggies.
K, now, I'm hungry, lol! Plus I need to get ready for work. So, I'm gonna run and I'll post my dinner and clothing a little later.
By the way, did you know today was World Vegetarian Day? And tomorrow is World Farm Animals Day? Some cities will be celebrating, but not Milwaukee. *sigh* Anyway, your topic is timely!
I try to build my meals around a grain. So, I'll have a pasta, say vermicelli, and toss it with some veggies, and throw some cubes of marinated tofu in it. Or maybe a stir fry. Or a stuffed baked potato. I can do a burrito with refried bean, and rice, and guacamole. Or veggie pizza, no cheese. Or falafels. Or a portabella mushroom sandwich. Or peppers stuffed with red beans and rice. I try to have a raw salad with every dinner, but some nights, the chips win out, Which leads us to ..........
Snacks! My downfall! LOL! Do you know how many not good for you food is vegan? Fritos plain AND barbeque, potato chips, Uh-Oh Oreos, Halloween Oreos (coming out soon if not now!) chocolate and cinnamon Teddy Grahams, Ritz crackers, most of the Tricuit crackers, Twizzlers, and starburst jelly beans! Woo-Hoo! I also do healthy snacks, like dried and fresh fruit, nuts, applesauce, peanut butter crackers, and veggies, dipped in hummus.
I take it that you really want to know what fabric my clothing is, and not what guys on the internet usually mean when they ask me what I'm wearing, lol! So, no wool or cashmere or angora, my sweaters are cotton, my winter hats and gloves and scarves are that Therma-fleece stuff. Do you know what I mean? No, leather, my shoes are either canvas or man made materials. For work, I wear New Balance running shoes. All their running shoes are vegan. And no down. My winter coat is Thinsulate. No silk, although there's a company in India where the women gather cocoons from the worms who have hatched, and make silk from them. The women recieve all the profits, so its a good company. Their silk is vegan. I can't think of any other animal materials. Oh Fur! No fur!
I hope this post helps. If you have any more questions, feel free to ask.
I do have a question, though. Why no wool? Sheep aren't killed for it, and if they're sheered properly, they're not hurt. In fact, I think they act like they feel better after shedding all that dirty, thick wool. So I don't understand the objection to wool or angora or down. Can you expound on that a bit?
When baby lambs are born into the wool industry, their ears are punched for identification, their tails are cut off (I don't know why) and the males are castrated without any anesthetics. In Australia, where alot of our wool comes from, the sheep have been bred so they have wrinkly skin, which produces more wool. It also means the sheep are at risk for flystrike, which is a maggot infestation. To prevent this, the sheep undergo "mulesling" which is cutting off huge strips of flesh off lambs, again without anesthetics. When the sheep are no longer able to produce wool, they are shipped to the Middle East on crowded ships to be sent to slaughter in countries where there are NO animal welfare standards.
Most down comes from slaughtered birds, but there are some that are live plucked. In countries where this is allowed (again it is not the US, but the United States buys down from these countries) birds will be plucked every six weeks from the time they are 10 weeks, until they are 4 years old. Its painful and stressful, like if we were to have our hair pulled out. Eider ducks are protected, so they cannot be harmed. But down "farmers" will still rob the nests of ducks, removing the insulating feathers that the eggs need to hatch. It takes 80 nests to fill one comforter.
Angora rabbits are strapped down for shearing, but the still try to escape. Its very hard to shear a rabbit without cutting them. They live cages with wire floors, which cause pain because of their very delicate foot pads. Ulcerated feet are very common. Males are killed at birth, because they do not produce the wool that females do.
There are vegetarians that eat eggs and/or dairy. No vegans do. I do not.
Wow David, no one has ever asked me the history before! I'll tell you what little I know.
In the 40's there was a debate among vegetarians in the UK about whether it was ethical to consume dairy. Out of this debate in 1944 The British Vegan Society was formed. Vegan was chosen because it comes from VEGetariAN, it "starts with vegetarian and carries it through to its logical conclusion." Donald Watson, founder of The British Vegan Society. In 1960, The American Vegan Society began.
Some would say that Veganism is as old as time. God put Adam in Eden, naked and plant eating. You can't get more vegan than that! LOL! But I don't think that's what you're asking.
I really don't know what people did in the 1940's for wool and leather alternatives. I'll ask around and see what I can find out.
You say you can't relate, but I bet we're more alike in our thinking when it comes to animals, than we are different.
A Christian Family, who have raised FOUR, VERY HEALTHY CHILDREN, and their FIFTH baby was born with a BIRTH DEFECT, and later died. :(
Umm, this is a classic case of the government sticking their nose where it shouldn't be...
AND, people forming opinions without knowing all the facts...
This particular family is ripped apart, and their circumstances caused by government interference, are outrageous.
Maybe parent's should be charged with a crime when they feed their children meat & animal products, and the child dies from FOOD POISONING... usually caused from FECES contamination...
Vegans MUST consume some type of animal product to survive...
Here
Well Allan, ACTUALLY, which is it? <_<
Sensationalism for sure!
There is a little truth in most stories that make the headlines - this one is no exception. The truth here is that a vegan diet (a diet with no animal products of any kind), unless supplemented with B-12, is deficient in this vitamin, and has been found in very rare cases to result in problems of vitamin B-12 deficiency. B-12 is made by bacteria and is stored in the body parts of animals that eat these bacteria. If you search the medical literature carefully, you will find about a dozen cases ascribed to a vegetarian diet (search www.nlm.nih.gov) - and almost every one of these has made front page news. Compare this risk to 1.25 million heart attacks (half fatal) annually in the USA that get almost no media attention and are accepted as part of our modern way of life.
B-12 is the only legitimate criticism of a healthy vegan diet. There are no other nutritional deficiencies caused by a vegan diet of whole plant foods - in other words, there is no chance of calcium, amino acid, protein, vitamin D, essential fatty acid, zinc, or iron deficiency - except B-12 deficiency.
Here are some Facts for the Diet Rich in B-12...
For the unborn infant the consequences of mother following the Western diet are:
1) An abnormally large baby that is too big to fit through the mother's birth canal, and therefore requiring a cesarean section - the medical description is "failure of progression of labor."1 Twenty-five percent of mothers deliver by this major surgery in the USA.
2) Thousands of birth defects annually, of which most are known to be due to too little folic acid in the expectant mother's diet.2 Folic acid is from foliage, in other words, plants. Birth defects from folic acid deficiency include spina bifida (the spinal canal fails to close in development of the spinal cord, and when left exposed, often causes paraplegia), and anencephalia (where the child is born without a brain). Heart deformities, cleft palate, and many other birth defects are also caused by eating too few vegetables by the mother prior to and during early pregnancy. You will never see folic acid deficiency in a healthy vegan mother.
For the young child the Western diet causes:
1) The beginnings of atherosclerosis, known as fatty streak development. Children raised on cow's milk, meat, and other delicacies found on a typical B-12-sufficient Western diet show fatty streaks in their aorta beginning at 9 months of age and all children on this diet have this artery damage by age 3 years. 3 These streaks evolve into well-known heart attacks and stokes in adulthood.
2) Obesity and overweight affect at least 25% of children on the Western diet. Approximately 22 million children under 5 years of age are overweight across the world.
If you have any doubts about the wisdom of a healthy vegan diet then look around your neighborhood. Children on B-12-sufficient diets with lots of ice cream, milk, hot dogs, egg muffins, and chicken nuggets are fat and sick. The obvious signs and symptoms are snotty noses, ear infections, stomach aches, and headaches. Get to know them better and you will find them constipated with bloody bowel movements. The pain and suffering inflicted on children by the American diet is so brutal that if it were administered with a stick, parents would be put in jail. Because the instruments of injury are a fork and spoon, everyone ignores the agony as if nothing was out of the ordinary, and nothing could be done to remedy the problems - you know so well that is not true.
For the Adult the Western diet causes:
In order to avoid a one-in-a-million risk of an anemia or neurological problem caused by a vegan diet alone, you risk a:
1 in 2 chance of dying prematurely of heart disease,
1 in 10 chance of breast or prostate cancer,
65% chance of being at least overweight
22% chance of being obese
almost certainty of arthritis, indigestion and/or constipation.
As I said...all things in moderation...even vegan(ism). And the truth of the matter is MANY vegetarians and vegans look 'sicker' than 'your average Jo Schmo' !!
I talked with some older people that live in the nursing home I work at, and with my mother, and they all said there were always man made materials around since they could remember. One man said that he had a pair of rubber work boots that he wore for work.
Allan- I take vegetarian B12 supplements that come from bacterial fermentation, not animal sources. So, will I die from a B12 deficiency? I don't know. I do know that vegans aren't falling down dead from heart attacks or strokes, but many omnivores are. I do know that studies have shown that a vegan diet can eliminate diabetes. And I know that animals will not suffer needlessly because I want a hamburger. But you don't have to believe me. And you can make fun of me and my lifestyle and call me names. I'll still love you. Because that's what veganism really is about. Reducing suffering. Compassion. Love.
As I said...all things in moderation...even vegan(ism). And the truth of the matter is MANY vegetarians and vegans look 'sicker' than 'your average Jo Schmo' !!
How many vegans do you know? Enough to make your statement meaningful?
Ah, yes, another wonderful and informatitive thread swirling down the drain. :(
Alan- Room for both thoughts in a constructive manner, perhaps? I'm learning quite a bit on both sides. Let's keep that going.
Well -- I won't be the one pulling the plug by making tasteless, derogatory comments and accusations. :( I started this thread in the same spirit of learning that Mark O'Malley did with Templelady when he wanted to know about the precepts of Mormonism. Hearing VeganXTC talk of her lifestyle, made me curious, so I asked.
Why google the internet, when you can *google* GreaseSpot??
Like I say -- it's not for me -- but far be it from me to forbid others from doing what they think is right.
This day and time -- with all the synthetics for clothing, the greater selection of food choices from Whole Foods Co-ops, more *awareness* in the major chain grocery stores, etc. etc., I can see how being a Vegan would be easier now than it was a century ago -- and that was part of what fueled my curiousity about the *old days* since wool, goose down, milk, meat, cheese, eggs, etc., were all in use a lot.
So Allan -- if you have constructive comments to make -- please do so. :)
If you want to flame and accuse -- JWO is the place for you. <_<
I'm asking someone who can make a contribution to the question at hand.
Debate and questions are both good and wholesome.
So far -- VeganXTC's diet/ beliefs have more good and are more wholesome than your posts, on this thread.
As I said...all things in moderation...even vegan(ism). And the truth of the matter is MANY vegetarians and vegans look 'sicker' than 'your average Jo Schmo' !!
Well -- me in my ignorance saw that as one. Even though you did advocate moderation, you made the statement and then let it hang there as fact, without offering any evidence or proof.
I've nothing against you at all Allan, nothing. You're welcome to your opinion (as we all are).
But -- when a thread is addressed to someone who knows details about the subject being discussed,
and questions are asked to that person about specifics concerning their beliefs,
it's generally considered polite to let the person answer, without total refutation of what they believe.
Like I said (with my *in-depth perception*) ;) debate and questions are good.
Everyone learns from them -- but confrontations cause division ---
and soon the thread becomes a *name-calling session*.
That's all I meant by that. Me -- I'm curious about the lifestyle.
I am not interested in the pros and cons of it found in the daily newspaper.
This thread is not about whether it is right or wrong, beneficial or destructive ---
It's all about info -- hearing what someone has to say who *practices what they preach*.
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VeganXTC
You have the right definition for veganism. Its really not as hard to be vegan as you might think. I don't think I eat or look that much different than you.
For breakfast, I'll have some cereal. In the winter, I like oatmeal with a little flax or wheatgerm, and I'll throw some raisins or bananas or berries in it. I cook it with water. In summer, I'll have cold cereal, usually bran flakes, with the same additions as my oatmeal. I use Silk vanilla soy milk on top. Or I'll have some toast, with peanut butter, or Earth Balance (a vegan margarine). Or a bagel with peanut butter or Tofutti Better than Cream Cheese. Or, I'll make a smoothie with fruit and juice. If I have lots of time, I'll make a tofu scramble. Its crumbles tofu with lots of spices.
For lunch, its usually leftover dinner. Or I'll make a wrap, with veggies and beans or hummus wrapped in a tortilla. Or a sandwich, with the same ingredients as my wrap. Or a veggie burger. Or a vegetable soup with a tomato or vegetable broth base. Or a salad. I'll throw beans or tofu in my salad along with the veggies.
K, now, I'm hungry, lol! Plus I need to get ready for work. So, I'm gonna run and I'll post my dinner and clothing a little later.
By the way, did you know today was World Vegetarian Day? And tomorrow is World Farm Animals Day? Some cities will be celebrating, but not Milwaukee. *sigh* Anyway, your topic is timely!
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VeganXTC
I'm back from work. So, where was I? Ok, dinner!
I try to build my meals around a grain. So, I'll have a pasta, say vermicelli, and toss it with some veggies, and throw some cubes of marinated tofu in it. Or maybe a stir fry. Or a stuffed baked potato. I can do a burrito with refried bean, and rice, and guacamole. Or veggie pizza, no cheese. Or falafels. Or a portabella mushroom sandwich. Or peppers stuffed with red beans and rice. I try to have a raw salad with every dinner, but some nights, the chips win out, Which leads us to ..........
Snacks! My downfall! LOL! Do you know how many not good for you food is vegan? Fritos plain AND barbeque, potato chips, Uh-Oh Oreos, Halloween Oreos (coming out soon if not now!) chocolate and cinnamon Teddy Grahams, Ritz crackers, most of the Tricuit crackers, Twizzlers, and starburst jelly beans! Woo-Hoo! I also do healthy snacks, like dried and fresh fruit, nuts, applesauce, peanut butter crackers, and veggies, dipped in hummus.
I take it that you really want to know what fabric my clothing is, and not what guys on the internet usually mean when they ask me what I'm wearing, lol! So, no wool or cashmere or angora, my sweaters are cotton, my winter hats and gloves and scarves are that Therma-fleece stuff. Do you know what I mean? No, leather, my shoes are either canvas or man made materials. For work, I wear New Balance running shoes. All their running shoes are vegan. And no down. My winter coat is Thinsulate. No silk, although there's a company in India where the women gather cocoons from the worms who have hatched, and make silk from them. The women recieve all the profits, so its a good company. Their silk is vegan. I can't think of any other animal materials. Oh Fur! No fur!
I hope this post helps. If you have any more questions, feel free to ask.
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Linda Z
Thanks for all the info, Vegan.
I do have a question, though. Why no wool? Sheep aren't killed for it, and if they're sheered properly, they're not hurt. In fact, I think they act like they feel better after shedding all that dirty, thick wool. So I don't understand the objection to wool or angora or down. Can you expound on that a bit?
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ChasUFarley
So, you don't eat eggs or milk products (ovo/lacto) right?
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VeganXTC
When baby lambs are born into the wool industry, their ears are punched for identification, their tails are cut off (I don't know why) and the males are castrated without any anesthetics. In Australia, where alot of our wool comes from, the sheep have been bred so they have wrinkly skin, which produces more wool. It also means the sheep are at risk for flystrike, which is a maggot infestation. To prevent this, the sheep undergo "mulesling" which is cutting off huge strips of flesh off lambs, again without anesthetics. When the sheep are no longer able to produce wool, they are shipped to the Middle East on crowded ships to be sent to slaughter in countries where there are NO animal welfare standards.
Most down comes from slaughtered birds, but there are some that are live plucked. In countries where this is allowed (again it is not the US, but the United States buys down from these countries) birds will be plucked every six weeks from the time they are 10 weeks, until they are 4 years old. Its painful and stressful, like if we were to have our hair pulled out. Eider ducks are protected, so they cannot be harmed. But down "farmers" will still rob the nests of ducks, removing the insulating feathers that the eggs need to hatch. It takes 80 nests to fill one comforter.
Angora rabbits are strapped down for shearing, but the still try to escape. Its very hard to shear a rabbit without cutting them. They live cages with wire floors, which cause pain because of their very delicate foot pads. Ulcerated feet are very common. Males are killed at birth, because they do not produce the wool that females do.
There are vegetarians that eat eggs and/or dairy. No vegans do. I do not.
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Linda Z
Thanks for that info, Vegan. You've been very patient with us non-vegans.
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VeganXTC
No problem, in fact it was my pleasure. October is Vegetarian Awareness Month. Its really cool I get to celebrate here!
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dmiller
so -- when did *veganism* start, and how did your beliefs
*survive*, before the invention of synthetic material??
Wool, and leather especially -- for clothing -- though I do see how you could circumvent the food thing.
Tennis shoes are geat -- (I like New Balance myself), but they weren't always around, like leather has been for sturdy work boots.
Is veganism a *new thing*??
I can't relate -- but am willing to listen. :)
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Oakspear
Cotton makes good clothing.
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dmiller
So does leather and wool. :)
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VeganXTC
Wow David, no one has ever asked me the history before! I'll tell you what little I know.
In the 40's there was a debate among vegetarians in the UK about whether it was ethical to consume dairy. Out of this debate in 1944 The British Vegan Society was formed. Vegan was chosen because it comes from VEGetariAN, it "starts with vegetarian and carries it through to its logical conclusion." Donald Watson, founder of The British Vegan Society. In 1960, The American Vegan Society began.
Some would say that Veganism is as old as time. God put Adam in Eden, naked and plant eating. You can't get more vegan than that! LOL! But I don't think that's what you're asking.
I really don't know what people did in the 1940's for wool and leather alternatives. I'll ask around and see what I can find out.
You say you can't relate, but I bet we're more alike in our thinking when it comes to animals, than we are different.
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allan w.
I guess all things should be practised with caution...
child of Vegan couple dies
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Oakspear
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SafariVista
Here's their story... Andressohn Family~ Raw Living Foods
A Christian Family, who have raised FOUR, VERY HEALTHY CHILDREN, and their FIFTH baby was born with a BIRTH DEFECT, and later died. :(
Umm, this is a classic case of the government sticking their nose where it shouldn't be...
AND, people forming opinions without knowing all the facts...
This particular family is ripped apart, and their circumstances caused by government interference, are outrageous.
Maybe parent's should be charged with a crime when they feed their children meat & animal products, and the child dies from FOOD POISONING... usually caused from FECES contamination...
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allan w.
Actually this was the one I was talking about...
Vegans MUST consume some type of animal product to survive...
Here
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SafariVista
Well Allan, ACTUALLY, which is it? <_<
Sensationalism for sure!
There is a little truth in most stories that make the headlines - this one is no exception. The truth here is that a vegan diet (a diet with no animal products of any kind), unless supplemented with B-12, is deficient in this vitamin, and has been found in very rare cases to result in problems of vitamin B-12 deficiency. B-12 is made by bacteria and is stored in the body parts of animals that eat these bacteria. If you search the medical literature carefully, you will find about a dozen cases ascribed to a vegetarian diet (search www.nlm.nih.gov) - and almost every one of these has made front page news. Compare this risk to 1.25 million heart attacks (half fatal) annually in the USA that get almost no media attention and are accepted as part of our modern way of life.
B-12 is the only legitimate criticism of a healthy vegan diet. There are no other nutritional deficiencies caused by a vegan diet of whole plant foods - in other words, there is no chance of calcium, amino acid, protein, vitamin D, essential fatty acid, zinc, or iron deficiency - except B-12 deficiency.
Here are some Facts for the Diet Rich in B-12...
For the unborn infant the consequences of mother following the Western diet are:
1) An abnormally large baby that is too big to fit through the mother's birth canal, and therefore requiring a cesarean section - the medical description is "failure of progression of labor."1 Twenty-five percent of mothers deliver by this major surgery in the USA.
2) Thousands of birth defects annually, of which most are known to be due to too little folic acid in the expectant mother's diet.2 Folic acid is from foliage, in other words, plants. Birth defects from folic acid deficiency include spina bifida (the spinal canal fails to close in development of the spinal cord, and when left exposed, often causes paraplegia), and anencephalia (where the child is born without a brain). Heart deformities, cleft palate, and many other birth defects are also caused by eating too few vegetables by the mother prior to and during early pregnancy. You will never see folic acid deficiency in a healthy vegan mother.
For the young child the Western diet causes:
1) The beginnings of atherosclerosis, known as fatty streak development. Children raised on cow's milk, meat, and other delicacies found on a typical B-12-sufficient Western diet show fatty streaks in their aorta beginning at 9 months of age and all children on this diet have this artery damage by age 3 years. 3 These streaks evolve into well-known heart attacks and stokes in adulthood.
2) Obesity and overweight affect at least 25% of children on the Western diet. Approximately 22 million children under 5 years of age are overweight across the world.
If you have any doubts about the wisdom of a healthy vegan diet then look around your neighborhood. Children on B-12-sufficient diets with lots of ice cream, milk, hot dogs, egg muffins, and chicken nuggets are fat and sick. The obvious signs and symptoms are snotty noses, ear infections, stomach aches, and headaches. Get to know them better and you will find them constipated with bloody bowel movements. The pain and suffering inflicted on children by the American diet is so brutal that if it were administered with a stick, parents would be put in jail. Because the instruments of injury are a fork and spoon, everyone ignores the agony as if nothing was out of the ordinary, and nothing could be done to remedy the problems - you know so well that is not true.
For the Adult the Western diet causes:
In order to avoid a one-in-a-million risk of an anemia or neurological problem caused by a vegan diet alone, you risk a:
1 in 2 chance of dying prematurely of heart disease,
1 in 10 chance of breast or prostate cancer,
65% chance of being at least overweight
22% chance of being obese
almost certainty of arthritis, indigestion and/or constipation.
(I could go on for several pages)
So, which way of eating should be WARNED AGAINST?
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allan w.
As I said...all things in moderation...even vegan(ism). And the truth of the matter is MANY vegetarians and vegans look 'sicker' than 'your average Jo Schmo' !!
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VeganXTC
David-
I talked with some older people that live in the nursing home I work at, and with my mother, and they all said there were always man made materials around since they could remember. One man said that he had a pair of rubber work boots that he wore for work.
Allan- I take vegetarian B12 supplements that come from bacterial fermentation, not animal sources. So, will I die from a B12 deficiency? I don't know. I do know that vegans aren't falling down dead from heart attacks or strokes, but many omnivores are. I do know that studies have shown that a vegan diet can eliminate diabetes. And I know that animals will not suffer needlessly because I want a hamburger. But you don't have to believe me. And you can make fun of me and my lifestyle and call me names. I'll still love you. Because that's what veganism really is about. Reducing suffering. Compassion. Love.
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SafariVista
Here's a Link to see information on Vegan and Vegetarian Athletes. I'm sure there will be names many of you recognize~
Enjoy
Vegan Fitness
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Oakspear
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topoftheworld
Ah, yes, another wonderful and informatitive thread swirling down the drain. :(
Alan-
Room for both thoughts in a constructive manner, perhaps? I'm learning quite a bit on both sides. Let's keep that going.
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dmiller
Well -- I won't be the one pulling the plug by making tasteless, derogatory comments and accusations. :( I started this thread in the same spirit of learning that Mark O'Malley did with Templelady when he wanted to know about the precepts of Mormonism. Hearing VeganXTC talk of her lifestyle, made me curious, so I asked.
Why google the internet, when you can *google* GreaseSpot??
Like I say -- it's not for me -- but far be it from me to forbid others from doing what they think is right.
This day and time -- with all the synthetics for clothing, the greater selection of food choices from Whole Foods Co-ops, more *awareness* in the major chain grocery stores, etc. etc., I can see how being a Vegan would be easier now than it was a century ago -- and that was part of what fueled my curiousity about the *old days* since wool, goose down, milk, meat, cheese, eggs, etc., were all in use a lot.
So Allan -- if you have constructive comments to make -- please do so. :)
If you want to flame and accuse -- JWO is the place for you. <_<
I'm asking someone who can make a contribution to the question at hand.
Debate and questions are both good and wholesome.
So far -- VeganXTC's diet/ beliefs have more good and are more wholesome than your posts, on this thread.
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allan w.
Thanks for your in-depth perception Dave !! As they say, "always two sides to any story".
Can't recall 'flaming or insulting' Safari at all, can you help me out here ??
All I've tried to do is 'show' that 'vegan(ism)' can become a 'religion' like any other (ism).
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dmiller
Well -- me in my ignorance saw that as one. Even though you did advocate moderation, you made the statement and then let it hang there as fact, without offering any evidence or proof.
I've nothing against you at all Allan, nothing. You're welcome to your opinion (as we all are).
But -- when a thread is addressed to someone who knows details about the subject being discussed,
and questions are asked to that person about specifics concerning their beliefs,
it's generally considered polite to let the person answer, without total refutation of what they believe.
Like I said (with my *in-depth perception*) ;) debate and questions are good.
Everyone learns from them -- but confrontations cause division ---
and soon the thread becomes a *name-calling session*.
That's all I meant by that. Me -- I'm curious about the lifestyle.
I am not interested in the pros and cons of it found in the daily newspaper.
This thread is not about whether it is right or wrong, beneficial or destructive ---
It's all about info -- hearing what someone has to say who *practices what they preach*.
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