It baffles me

[Bramble]

The whole' those unbelievers are gonna get it' rejoicing, the gruesome deaths for the ones who didn't pick the right god at the right time, viewing others with different beliefs as enemies..and hell. Why does that appeal to people? What motivates people to believe those things? How do they reconcile it with love or justce?

We had an interesting experience with the Left Behind books--you can't tell me that is not fear motivation! Needless to say, my teen isn't visiting THAT families church anymore.

When I was a little girl an old Irish nun told us in no uncertain terms that non catholics went to hell. Whew was I ever lucky! But too bad about my neighbor Lori, they are Congregational...but even as a seven year old I had some compassion.

In TWI there was no compassion, at least not after the first few years...I see other Christians who seem to see all the world as a devilish place and I wonder what they get out of it. Does it really make their lives more full and meaningful, bring them closer to their God? Do they sleep better at night, have more success in life?

I do not get it.

[allan w.]

Don't worry...the pagans will 'get it'...eventually !!

[VeganXTC]

I don't understand it either, Bramble.

When I was a child, I went to a friend's church. Her minister taught fire and brimstone so vividly that I was terrified for months.

I think the same mentality goes on when someone is jailed for a crime, and people wish for rape and beatings.

I look at the words of Christ, and while he had no pity for Jewish leadership, he was very compassionate to all others.

People have told me that hell was necessary to motivate people to do the right thing, or to show us how good heaven was. I personally think people are smart enough to know good when they see it, and to do the right thing without fear of punishment. Some people have made God in their image, and since they cannot see justice unless there is an extreme show of punishment, have God handing out punishment like Hitler did in Nazi Germany.

I too would be interested to hear how people reconcile these beliefs.

[pond]

1 Timothy states clearly Gods thoughts on people.

1 Timothy 3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour:

4who will have ALL men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

the bible is a book written about the struggle of man and their Creator.

God loves us more deeply and more intensly than we may ever know.

people just want to deny that and become the ONE to save folks, we can not save our self we need Jesus Christ.

God wants \All!!!!! even the bad guys to be saved from His enemy DEATH.

the formula is serious enough death or life. I do not care to polly anna the story God has been and always be serious . some will burn to ashes and they will not burn forever. they will burn up to ashes. matt 3,12

malachi 4,1 revelation 21,4 says there will be no more sorrow, crying or pain.

YET

look at how God wants to deal with the situation!!

He wants all to be saved. Jesus christ died for a reason and those who do not like the program can have their own desired result.. death.

I have now begun this new ideal for my life if I see myself looking at people as "evil doer" "unbeliever with a bad twist inmy mind"

I remember Gods thought He wishes All to be saved !

so I try love. Love wins. I no longer point out what is wrong with folks inlife, (I have plenty inmy own) I love and speak what the word says.

God wants us all to be able to live in the kingdom and to get folks to hear the plan the fear of DEATH just doesnt seem like the best approach.

[George Aar]

Religion really has all the earmarks of a rather hackneyed sales campaign.

The ever-present carrot and stick - Go to hell if you don't play by the rules - Go to heaven if you're "good".

And then, of course, they have to beat back the competition with numerous admonitions that their way is the ONLY true way, and any others are corrupt and EVIL.

Once you've managed to distance yourself from it a bit, it all becomes pretty childish and silly...

[T-Bone]

The whole' those unbelievers are gonna get it' rejoicing, the gruesome deaths for the ones who didn't pick the right god at the right time, viewing others with different beliefs as enemies..and hell. Why does that appeal to people? What motivates people to believe those things? How do they reconcile it with love or justce?...

That certainly doesn't appeal to me. I understand things differently from that. In my opinion, I see the God of the Bible as a loving AND just God... Sprawled Out had a thread Is God Keeping Score? - where I addressed this in post # 11:

http://www.greasespotcafe.com/ipb/index.ph...st&p=253067

I see God as being loving in affording people a choice for their eternal state - and being just by having the quality of their eternal state based on merit.

Edited September 29, 2006 by T-Bone

[VeganXTC]

T-Bone-I enjoyed reading your post on Sprawled Out's thread, especially the story of the prodigal son. Its the first time in my adult life that I thought that story might be teaching how to be a good neighbor, instead of who is my neighbor. Thank you.

I disagree with some points though. True, no one can force someone to love them. However, I don't consider sending someone to a lifetime of torture in hell as a loving thing. Surely a God who can create all life, and is love and light, can think of somewhere else to place people who do not want to be with Him.

I'm not saying you believe that hell is a place of torment, or that anyone else here does. But I do know there are many Christians who see hell as a place more gruesome than Dante's Inferno. And delight that some will be sent there.

[sirguessalot]

well, i dunno fer sure

but it seems as if everyone needs a story to hold their hopes and experiences of things like plain ole dying and justice

and when people (or societies and cultures) lack a story that works

(i.e. actually and really functionally frees them from fight or flight behaviour or otherwise being jerks to each other)

they must find and keep any story they can

this is not really an option

and so, shared stories are the most powerful

and sometimes the story is that of a super child of a sky god who is going to come and kick butt on our behalf

and sometimes the story is that "it's all only always mostly b.s. and nothing more anywa so who cares"

but either way...if the story does not free us from our deathgrip on the story itself

we will basically make life worse for someone else

pain that is not transformed is always transmitted

in short...

we are terminally mortal

and we most naturally dont like this

so we come up with many ways to interpret our impending doom

simply because we have to, somehow

and many people these days are using the story of a saviour from the sky

to help process the insanity of a world that seems to be falling apart around our ears

my 2 cents

[T-Bone]

Vegan, when it comes to figuring out what heaven and hell will be like – much remains a mystery. As a Bible-believing Christian, I must accept the future reality of these two places. However, I am at a loss to describe – even in a general sense – what life will be like in either place with what little detailed information is offered in Scripture.

I personally find it repugnant that anyone would delight in seeing people go to hell. I find it a very dreadful topic [hell and eternal punishment] – sobering - in fact at times wondering about my own salvation seeing what a weak, selfish, and prideful person I am. I'm certainly in no position to judge anyone else in terms of deciding where they're going to spend eternity. As Hebrews 10:30 and 31 says – Vengeance belongs to God, He will repay, He will judge His people, for it is a terrifying thing to fall into the hands of the living God! I get squeamish – uneasy – thinking of God's justice, righteousness, holiness – realizing I'm a foolhardy rock climber trying to scale a vertical diamond-like cliff that reaches past the stratosphere.

Hell will not be the same for everybody. The degree of punishment is commensurate with the person's willful intent of their sinful behavior:

Luke 12:47,48

47. And the slave who knew his master's will and did not get ready or act in accord with his will, shall receive many lashes,

48. but the one who did not know it, and committed deeds worthy of a flogging, will receive but few…

Hebrews 10:29

29. How much severer punishment do you think he will deserve who has trampled under foot the Son of God, and has regarded as unclean the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and has insulted the Spirit of grace?

Edited September 30, 2006 by T-Bone

[dancing]

I don't think Hell is what a lot of people make it out to be.

Nor do I think anyone will be there forever.

Anyone, meaning the whole soul of a person.

But a certain burning fire, that is not really a fire, but hot nonetheless.

Therefore needing the former and latter rain.

The baptism of Christ is with Fire, but water is essential.

So, Bramble, gotta say that there is a self righteous ring to all these doctrines.

Those that say one will burn in hell forever and the like.

And I'd have to add that there is a part of us that will not burn.........

ever, and to a large degree this 4th man in the furnace will redeem the other 3.

[Oakspear]

Don't worry...the pagans will 'get it'...eventually !!

This kinda illustrates your point, doesn't it, Bramble?

[Bramble]

Thanks for all the thoughtful replies, and thank you, Allan,(heehee, I wasn't going to say a word, Oakspear) for illustrating my point.

Sir Guess, your post on the shared stories, yes I can see that. Human history has always been full of turmoil, wars, droughts, famine, disease, heartbreak. We all desire to control our lives, to avoid the bad things...but in the end there are things that happen that are far beyond our control. A rescue story does give people hope.

I think there is a story in the pagan community that serves that same purpose, the !00th monkey story... the age of Aquarius, the waterbearer pouring out spiritual knowledge...it is all about a better world in the future.

I sometimes wonder if Jesus didn't come with a message that few were able to understand--I'm including myself in there--, that involved spiritual growth...but people couldn't receive it and so turned it into authoritarian rule bound systems they understood

[dancing]

[dancing]

Doctrines that cut out life for others are a sure sign of what to avoid.

[Bramble]

Doctrines that cut out life for others are a sure sign of what to avoid.

Agree. I would add--another sure sign of religions to avoid are those that expect obedience to church leaders.

[waysider]

I know the scriptures speak of a place that people generically refer to as Hell that has been reserved for the fallen angels who were part of the big conspiracy when Lucifer tried to overthrow GOD and he and one third of the angels were cast out, but where do the scriptures speak of human beings being dispatched to a place we shall simply refer to as "Hell"? I am not saying the scripture does not exist, only that I am not familiar with where this might be found. My understanding( and I'm not saying it is accurate) was always that "Hell" was a place reserved for spirits as in the spirits refered to in the OT.

[pond]

2 Thessalonians 1,9 gehenna (valley of Hinnom in hebrew) , the lake of fire in revelation like the garbage jesus speaks of is to be burned up.

Ezekiel 28:18 ..satan to ashes..forever and ever is unto the ages of ages.

revelation 20, vs 6,14 the second death.

john 5 28,29

revelation 20 15

2 peter 3,10

mattew 3;12

malaci 4:1

tartaros is hell in 2 peter2,4 this is where the evil spirits are imprisoned.

proverbs 24,19

for an in depth study read Is there Death after life, by mark G, JAl and JOHN Schoenheit

[VeganXTC]

I found this and it held my interest. Has anyone here read this book?

http://www.dpjs.co.uk/hell.html#Christian

[Bramble]

I haven't read that book, but I do know that there were many underworld goddesses, like Hecate. My understanding was that many were more guides and that the Christian fire and brimstone idea wasn't part of it. Some mother/earth goddesses also had an underworld aspect--they helped you out of your mother's womb and into the womb of the earth at your death.

The Norse had a goddess named Hel who oversaw the place where those didn't live good lives went, instead of to Asgaard, which I've read in places was where the early Christians came up with the Hell doctrine, though I've never investigated that. I don't know if those in Hel's realm-- it was a cold place, not burning --could be reincarnated. Most modern pagans I know believe that your karma or the law of returns follows you into the next life. Wiccans usually believe there is a time of reflection called Summerland, where you may meet your family/ancestors. As above so below--life on earth reflects the life above, what is important here is important there, family.

Since I spent so many years in a manipulating cult, I figure I was a haughty, ego driven, manipulating jerk in my last life. Hopefully, lesson learned!

[dancing]

some interesting links

http://www.google.com/custom?domains=www.p...A1%3B&hl=en

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hell

[templelady]

anothe reason to be thankful I'm LDS

and another reason why This "pagan" will never be on the same page as Allen

Edited October 2, 2006 by templelady

[VeganXTC]

Do Mormons consider themselves to be pagen?

[allan w.]

They might as well, with a bit of 'spiritualism' thrown in to keep the troops interested.

[dancing]

Tempted and tried we're oft made to wonder

Why it should be thus all the day long

While there are others living about us

Never molested though in the wrong

We even sang about it huh.....

[Bramble]

I really appreciate the posts on this thread that have been so thought provoking.

Allen is not here to participate, he is here to persecute. Let's not let him turn this thread into an Allen thread. Ignore him, please.