Hi Danny. Going back to your statement. I do not think Satan and those who sinned will be redeemed.
Hi Sunesis,
You may turn out correct. But nonetheless, some thoughts.
I believe a nature corrupted cannot be rehabilitated. yes, maybe they could be forgiven and allowed entrance into God's perfection, and yes, maybe they could be on their best behavior - for awhile - but eventually, the true nature must come out. God will not allow corruption to taint his glory or heaven again. Satan did it once and it took the creation of mankind and a savior to bring about the restoration of the creation back to its perfection before Gen. 1:1 - of which the process is still continuing.
Yet of such a hopelessly corrupt "nature" were we -
Eph.2:1-6
1 ¶ ... dead in trespasses and sins;
2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:
3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.4 ¶ But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,
5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;)
6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:
God, out the vast wealth of His love, compassion, and goodness, saves us, who "by nature" were "children of wrath".
Given His character of goodness, I wouldn't rule out that He may have something similar ultimately in store for fallen angels and lost spirits which, not unlike us, had no hope without God in the world...while we were "enemies" we were conciliated to God.
If He can pull that off with our species He could probably do the same with the angelic species, all those thrones, dominions, principalities, and powers in Col.1:16 which might also be construed further in that context as being recipients of "the peace through the blood of His cross" (Col 1:20).
If these angelic beings are already in some way regarded perfect or pure in their nature, requiring no change or transformation, why do they still apparently require "the blood of His cross"? (cf. Eph.3:10 - the obligation of the church is to make known to principalities and powers on high "the manifold wisdom of God" - perhaps our nission really is to preach the Good News to the entire creation).
I believe God will give them their own place, apart from him, where they can rail against, and hate God forever. This is called the lake of fire. Is it a literal fire? I don't know. I could be a symbol for a place where words can't describe. To me, a place without God and his light and love - that's unimaginable and indescribable.
I hope it's not literal, because I can just imagine the future book of "Genesis" concerning the "new Paradise" of the new creation might read something along these lines:
"Of every lake in the garden ye may freely swim,
but of the fiery lake in the midst of the garden...
(oh oh, I don't think this is going to turn out well)
I wouldn't rule out that He [refering to God]may have something similar ultimately in store for fallen angels and lost spirits which, not unlike us, had no hope without God in the world..
The only thing wrong with your conclusion is assuming those spirits "had no hope and were without God in the world." Unlike us who never had it to begin with, they had it but decided to refuse it.
The only thing wrong with your conclusion is assuming those spirits "had no hope and were without God in the world." Unlike us who never had it to begin with, they had it but decided to refuse it.
Are you absolutely certain about that?
If such was the case, why is the "intent" given to "the Church" to make known to these principalities and powers in the heavenlies "the manifold wisdom of God" if these powers in some way already had access to God's presence, to Whom they could inquire of Him directly?
Do they currently surround the throne of the Highest, singing hymns of "Happy Happy Happy, Joy Joy joy" all eternity long, or will they also require undergoing some manner of salvation to get to that point?
Ah... and there is the trap that's been laid so many people fail to recognize. There is no scripture in any Bible anywhere that instructs a Christian to think the truth of someone else.
[Most of the reason for that not being prevalent is the "no duh" nature of
that sort of thing. If you love your neighbor as yourself, you will not lie to your
neighbor, nor lie about your neighbor. What you will say will be true.
If the person did you much evil, then it is NOT wrong to say they did you
much evil. (Scroll up; it's in the Epistles.)
However, it is EXPECTED that all Christians mature to the point that they
themselves are able to distinguish between the right hand and the left.
Hebrews 5:12-14
12For when for the time ye ought to be teachers, ye have need that one teach you again which be the first principles of the oracles of God; and are become such as have need of milk, and not of strong meat.
13For every one that useth milk is unskilful in the word of righteousness: for he is a babe.
14But strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age, even those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil.
]
Why? Because Jesus Christ is the only truth there is! There is no one alive today, nor anyone who ever lived who is or claimed to be the truth other than Jesus Christ himself.
[interesting philosophy. So, are you saying it's perfectly acceptable to lie about
others, deceiving yourself and others about them?
If that's your belief, that explains a lot.]
Thinking evil IS the only truth for those outside of Christ.
[if that were true, then thinking evil is the path to Christ, for if it is ONLY
option for the non-Christian, by definition it is the option that takes them to
being born again, since some non-Christians DO become Christians,
and thus born again. Since your definition straitjackets thoughts into
this tiny box, this same definition MUST apply to their life up to redemption
and how they get there. Confessing Jesus as Lord and believing God raised
him from the dead are deliberate decisions.]
I'm not onlly refering to those who aren't saved and who do not know the Lord, but also the Christian who refuses to put on the mind of Christ. Either way - until one comes to Christ, it is impossible for them to think any different.
[And as long as one remains convinced they have THE Truth,
they will forever be blinded to truths more cogent than those they've learned.
They will remain bottle-fed for life, and eschew "strong meat" as
"high-faluting" or "overly intellectual" or "evil."
If it doesn't fit on a bumper sticker, it's obviously wrong, to such a person.
Ah... and there is the trap that's been laid so many people fail to recognize. There is no scripture in any Bible anywhere that instructs a Christian to think the truth of someone else. Why? Because Jesus Christ is the only truth there is! There is no one alive today, nor anyone who ever lived who is or claimed to be the truth other than Jesus Christ himself.
WTH,
That opinion is just stupid. Paul thought the truth of people. Peter thought the truth of people. Paul thought the truth of Peter, and said so to his face.
There is no scripture that says we are to sugarcoat the truth in favor of some mealy-mouthed, feel-goodism definition of so-called love.
It is not loving to sugarcoat the truth. That is known as lying, and whether you lie to others or yourself, it is contrary to God's will.
If you believe thinking the truth is a trap, that would explain many of your past posts.
You will NEVER be able to help your fellow Christian if you blindly and stupidly refuse to see the truth about him.
There is no scripture that instructs a Christian to think the truth aout someone else... That may be the most ignorant comment ever posted on Greasespot in its history.
Danny - LOL!!! I love the new, future version of Genesis!
Anyway, I used to be a devout universalist - all would be saved without exception. But I am not anymore.
Yes, Christ came to deliver mankind, but not all have chosen to be redeemed.
I read other boards, some boards where people rail against God. Like it or not, there are people who absolutely hate God and Christ and the vileness that they speak of him with - well, it wasn't like this years ago.
Anyway, not all humans will be saved. The holy spirit was sent into the world to convict the world of sin. I believe every human being, at some point or another is convicted and has to make a choice, or, if they are in a position to never hear of Christ, at least think deeply about God.
Even Christ, when he prayed, said he did not pray for the world - but those that were given him.
In order for God to "save" angels, he would have to recreate their nature. But, it was their choice to not follow him, but Satan.
In order for God to "save" them - he would have to overpower them and go against their free will. He will not do that - it is not just.
Danny - LOL!!! I love the new, future version of Genesis!
Anyway, I used to be a devout universalist - all would be saved without exception. But I am not anymore.
Some days I'm a "universalist" - other days, I'm not (lol). It is absolutely horrendous what people do to other people.
Yes, Christ came to deliver mankind, but not all have chosen to be redeemed.
True, though it would seem that "the redeemed" themselves had not all chosen such a calling and place predetermined for them by God "before the foundation of the world".
I read other boards, some boards where people rail against God. Like it or not, there are people who absolutely hate God and Christ and the vileness that they speak of him with - well, it wasn't like this years ago.
I suspect that the roots of this hatred vary from person to person. Some of this may stem from the natural rivalry between one religion or ideology against another. To be expected. Other cases may stem from one's personal bad experiences and encounters with corrupt representatives of God and Christ (unfortunately, there have been many evil things committed in the name of God and Christ over the centuries). In any event, these may never have had sufficient opportunity to learn of "what kind of spirit' Christ is, a Spirit which is "benevolent to both the evil and the ungrateful" (upon which even His own disciples, blind in their anger toward certain inhospitable Samaritans, would rather have had Christ invoke a pillar of fire out of the heaven to consume them, as Elijah had done).
Anyway, not all humans will be saved. The holy spirit was sent into the world to convict the world of sin. I believe every human being, at some point or another is convicted and has to make a choice, or, if they are in a position to never hear of Christ, at least think deeply about God.
In the manner we may view the forseeable future, perhaps you're right.
But infinity is good long time toward accomplishing many things, perhaps such things not revealed within the scope of our sacred writings. But the idea of existing again in a different realm ( be it a future earth, a different world in another universe, an alternate dimension) is certainly provocative enough.
One yearns for the slightest glimpse. A new trailer for the upcoming attraction, a new preview.
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TheInvisibleDan
Hi Sunesis,
You may turn out correct. But nonetheless, some thoughts.
Yet of such a hopelessly corrupt "nature" were we -God, out the vast wealth of His love, compassion, and goodness, saves us, who "by nature" were "children of wrath".
Given His character of goodness, I wouldn't rule out that He may have something similar ultimately in store for fallen angels and lost spirits which, not unlike us, had no hope without God in the world...while we were "enemies" we were conciliated to God.
If He can pull that off with our species He could probably do the same with the angelic species, all those thrones, dominions, principalities, and powers in Col.1:16 which might also be construed further in that context as being recipients of "the peace through the blood of His cross" (Col 1:20).
If these angelic beings are already in some way regarded perfect or pure in their nature, requiring no change or transformation, why do they still apparently require "the blood of His cross"? (cf. Eph.3:10 - the obligation of the church is to make known to principalities and powers on high "the manifold wisdom of God" - perhaps our nission really is to preach the Good News to the entire creation).
I hope it's not literal, because I can just imagine the future book of "Genesis" concerning the "new Paradise" of the new creation might read something along these lines:
"Of every lake in the garden ye may freely swim,
but of the fiery lake in the midst of the garden...
(oh oh, I don't think this is going to turn out well)
And the wise serpent said to the harmless doves,
'But if you go swimming in that lake,
you will know all that God knows,
and will rediscover who you once really were
in times of old....'
...And God said
From whence do these darn serpents keep coming?"
:)
Danny
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What The Hey
The only thing wrong with your conclusion is assuming those spirits "had no hope and were without God in the world." Unlike us who never had it to begin with, they had it but decided to refuse it.
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TheInvisibleDan
Are you absolutely certain about that?
If such was the case, why is the "intent" given to "the Church" to make known to these principalities and powers in the heavenlies "the manifold wisdom of God" if these powers in some way already had access to God's presence, to Whom they could inquire of Him directly?
Do they currently surround the throne of the Highest, singing hymns of "Happy Happy Happy, Joy Joy joy" all eternity long, or will they also require undergoing some manner of salvation to get to that point?
Danny
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WordWolf
[Most of the reason for that not being prevalent is the "no duh" nature of
that sort of thing. If you love your neighbor as yourself, you will not lie to your
neighbor, nor lie about your neighbor. What you will say will be true.
If the person did you much evil, then it is NOT wrong to say they did you
much evil. (Scroll up; it's in the Epistles.)
However, it is EXPECTED that all Christians mature to the point that they
themselves are able to distinguish between the right hand and the left.
Hebrews 5:12-14
12For when for the time ye ought to be teachers, ye have need that one teach you again which be the first principles of the oracles of God; and are become such as have need of milk, and not of strong meat.
13For every one that useth milk is unskilful in the word of righteousness: for he is a babe.
14But strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age, even those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil.
]
[interesting philosophy. So, are you saying it's perfectly acceptable to lie aboutothers, deceiving yourself and others about them?
If that's your belief, that explains a lot.]
[if that were true, then thinking evil is the path to Christ, for if it is ONLY
option for the non-Christian, by definition it is the option that takes them to
being born again, since some non-Christians DO become Christians,
and thus born again. Since your definition straitjackets thoughts into
this tiny box, this same definition MUST apply to their life up to redemption
and how they get there. Confessing Jesus as Lord and believing God raised
him from the dead are deliberate decisions.]
[And as long as one remains convinced they have THE Truth,
they will forever be blinded to truths more cogent than those they've learned.
They will remain bottle-fed for life, and eschew "strong meat" as
"high-faluting" or "overly intellectual" or "evil."
If it doesn't fit on a bumper sticker, it's obviously wrong, to such a person.
Pity. ]
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Raf
WTH,
That opinion is just stupid. Paul thought the truth of people. Peter thought the truth of people. Paul thought the truth of Peter, and said so to his face.
There is no scripture that says we are to sugarcoat the truth in favor of some mealy-mouthed, feel-goodism definition of so-called love.
It is not loving to sugarcoat the truth. That is known as lying, and whether you lie to others or yourself, it is contrary to God's will.
If you believe thinking the truth is a trap, that would explain many of your past posts.
You will NEVER be able to help your fellow Christian if you blindly and stupidly refuse to see the truth about him.
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Raf
There is no scripture that instructs a Christian to think the truth aout someone else... That may be the most ignorant comment ever posted on Greasespot in its history.
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Cynic
[snide remard about "pair juice" deleted by Cynic, after realizing Raf was partly quoting What The Hey.]
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E. W. Bullinger
Dear Greg:
I think I recognize you by your writing style. Were you a WOW in Charleston, West Virginia?
Sincerely,
e. w. bullinger
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Sunesis
Danny - LOL!!! I love the new, future version of Genesis!
Anyway, I used to be a devout universalist - all would be saved without exception. But I am not anymore.
Yes, Christ came to deliver mankind, but not all have chosen to be redeemed.
I read other boards, some boards where people rail against God. Like it or not, there are people who absolutely hate God and Christ and the vileness that they speak of him with - well, it wasn't like this years ago.
Anyway, not all humans will be saved. The holy spirit was sent into the world to convict the world of sin. I believe every human being, at some point or another is convicted and has to make a choice, or, if they are in a position to never hear of Christ, at least think deeply about God.
Even Christ, when he prayed, said he did not pray for the world - but those that were given him.
In order for God to "save" angels, he would have to recreate their nature. But, it was their choice to not follow him, but Satan.
In order for God to "save" them - he would have to overpower them and go against their free will. He will not do that - it is not just.
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Raf
Cynic,
I'm sorry I missed the pair juice comment. I'm sure it was a hoot.
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Raf
Hi Greg!
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TheInvisibleDan
Some days I'm a "universalist" - other days, I'm not (lol). It is absolutely horrendous what people do to other people.
True, though it would seem that "the redeemed" themselves had not all chosen such a calling and place predetermined for them by God "before the foundation of the world".I suspect that the roots of this hatred vary from person to person. Some of this may stem from the natural rivalry between one religion or ideology against another. To be expected. Other cases may stem from one's personal bad experiences and encounters with corrupt representatives of God and Christ (unfortunately, there have been many evil things committed in the name of God and Christ over the centuries). In any event, these may never have had sufficient opportunity to learn of "what kind of spirit' Christ is, a Spirit which is "benevolent to both the evil and the ungrateful" (upon which even His own disciples, blind in their anger toward certain inhospitable Samaritans, would rather have had Christ invoke a pillar of fire out of the heaven to consume them, as Elijah had done).
In the manner we may view the forseeable future, perhaps you're right.
But infinity is good long time toward accomplishing many things, perhaps such things not revealed within the scope of our sacred writings. But the idea of existing again in a different realm ( be it a future earth, a different world in another universe, an alternate dimension) is certainly provocative enough.
One yearns for the slightest glimpse. A new trailer for the upcoming attraction, a new preview.
:)
Danny
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rascal
Lol Raf :lol:
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