That verse in Romans the gifts and calling of God are without repentance. If someone has an actual ministry of God, they don't lose it if they screw up. They may lose peoples' trust, but they don't lose the ability to minister.
wouldn't losing people's trust hamper your ability to minister to them?
invisibledan--vpw would NEVER have apologized. NEVER. it was not part of his repertoire. i don't think it was ever in his nature to do so, and once he'd erected his fortress of sycophants, he never had to face his fallibility again.
We are told to steer away from folks like wierwille in the scriptures.
Forgiveness is between him and God. (None of my business in other words) *IF* he had repented and asked, it would have then been my responsibility...as stated in Luke 17:3
At this point I don't feel hatred toward Wierwille - rather, great sadness and disappointment, at the thought of one having had at one time the resources and opportunities to effect so much good for so many, but rather, having used all this toward committing evil and selfish gain, and now, being dead, has no more opportunity in this earthly plane to rectify make up for those wrongs, in any way possible. Man, did he really blow it.
Coincidentally, Invisible Dan's post put me in mind between another "invisible" character and one to whom the "mantle" was passed:
"You are fettered," said Scrooge, trembling. "Tell me why?"
"I wear the chain I forged in life," replied the Ghost. "I made it link by link, and yard by yard; I girded it on of my own free will, and of my own free will I wore it.
"...But you were always a good man of business, Jacob," faultered Scrooge, who now began to apply this to himself.
"Business!'' cried the Ghost, wringing its hands again. "Mankind was my business. The common welfare was my business; charity, mercy, forbearance, and benevolence, were, all, my business. The dealings of my trade were but a drop of water in the comprehensive ocean of my business!"
I agree with what most of you are saying. To me it is basically common sense. Although, I have trouble with what seems to be contradictory statements in some parts of the Bible. I also don't quite see that some here have forgiven when they say they have. I for one won't fault you for that. I personally don't see forgiveness as a required step in moving on or it as a stop block for bitterness.
To use as a frame of reference, as usual... a dictionary.
forgive-
1 To excuse for a fault or an offense; pardon.
2 To renounce anger or resentment against.
3 To absolve from payment of (a debt, for example).
Number 1 gives me a sense of restoring or reconciling. Simply because in my mind to pardon someone in prison, is to let them go free. Now that may not mean the victims of the crime have pardoned the person but the state has and has restored this person to a normal life. Around here I don't see many people excusing VPW or LCM of any faults.
#2 is more along the lines of what I think people are saying around here and is what those that post threads on why we need to forgive TWI leaders, are trying to get us to do in order to get rid of all our bitterness. Although, when I read posts about what has happened to people many times by people that say they have moved on and forgiven, I still get a strong sense of anger and resentment. Again, I have no problem with that, if fact I think it is justified and I think there are still ways to move on and still have a healthy dose of anger.
#3 doesn't really apply here, although, there have been many threads in which people expressed how they wished they had all thier ABS back. lol. It would be nice.
So, to those that claim to have forgiven but not forgotten, in what way have you forgiven?
Are there biblical examples of forgiving but not forgetting? STL, gave some in which forgiveness meant restored to thier former position, although, I believe those involved repentence.
Then there are the Gospels I quoted in which two said just forgive and one said forgive after repentence. I see Rascal agrees the later is the accurate way to go. What about the rest of you? Raf said the earlier part of those verses, "judge not, and you will not be judged", is hyperbole. What about the forgiveness parts? Plus, isn't it kind of unforgiving of God to not forgive you just becasue you have not forgiven? Say all I have done is stolen and repented, but I haven't forgiven someone who molested me, does that seem just?
What about the verse in Matt 18?
:21 Then came Peter to him, and said, Lord, how oft shall my brother sin against me, and I forgive him? till seven times?
:22 Jesus saith unto him, I say not unto thee, Until seven times: but, Until seventy times seven.
Is he talking about different sins or about the same sin?
What about the verse in Luke that Belle quoted?
Luke 6:26-35
But I say unto you which hear, Love your enemies, do good to them which hate you,
Bless them that curse you, and pray for them which despitefully use you.
And unto him that smiteth thee on the [one] cheek offer also the other; and him that taketh away thy cloke forbid not [to take thy] coat also.
For if ye love them which love you, what thank have ye? for sinners also love those that love them.
And if ye do good to them which do good to you, what thank have ye? for sinners also do even the same.
But love ye your enemies, and do good, and lend, hoping for nothing again; and your reward shall be great, and ye shall be the children of the Highest: for he is kind unto the unthankful and [to] the evil
If someone hits you let them do it again. If someone steals something from you, don't forbid them to take more from you. How do you make these verses line up for you in light of how you see forgiveness? It is clear there is forgiveness going on. Maybe you don't forget, but in these verses it seems like you are to act as though you have.
Lastly, there is Eph. 4 and 5 again. Chaper 4 gives a list of things not to do and ends with "forgive as God for Christ's sake has forgiven you." Chapter 5 begins with other sins in which it says they should not be named once among the saints and that there is no inheritance in the Kingdom of Christ and God. So is there a distinction in sins? Are there some that you should forgive while others you should just "leave up to God to sort out?"
OK, really last thing, is quoting Jesus's example really a legit thing to do in light of Mat 9:6, Mar 2:10, and Luk 5:24, in which it talks about the "Son of man" having "power on earth to forgive"?
I don't think Jesus ever intended to put somebody back into the motorcoach when he said "turn the other cheek," which is a response to an insult, not to physical abuse.
I ask God to look out for them and their well being.
I no longer ask for his wrath upon them
That does not mean that they are now, nor very likely will they ever be, an integral part of my life.
I think this best describes what I've come to understand as honest forgiveness.
I also think this is where many people who profess religion get things mixed up...at least in twi it was pretty mixed up...and I always got it mixed up until very, very recently.
Let it go does not equate to invite the people back into one's life.
That was a hard lesson for me to learn. I just didn't get it. It was either not forgive and keep people away or forgive and roll over for them. What my life ended up being like because of this black-and-white thinking was that I had way too many people in my life that shouldn't have been...and I know many people feel the same way towards me.
But that's OK. Ya know? Some people are just not a good mix. They feed each other's addictions. Or they bring out the worst in each other. Or they in some other way interact in unhealthy ways.
I didn't know that for all these years. I knew it in my head, but I didn't get it.
Now that I get it I find it much easier to forgive...honestly forgive. Because I don't have to worry about the next time the stuff might fly.
one anothering which means one then the other, it doesnt say just love till they suck your ability to love anymore away from you. then move on to the other person.
Love is an action which connotes action one anothering involves at least TWO people to do it.
If only one person is loving in a relationship it is NOT as Jesus comanded us to to do it says to "love one another".
I looked up "FORGIVE" in a dictionary years ago. One of the definitions said, "To give in spite of..." I particularly preferred that definition.
I also preferred the teaching once given by LCM from I John 1:9.
"If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness."
The teaching basically made the point that the word "if" is conditional. So, if we don't confess our sins, God is not required to forgive.
Likewise, throughout the epistiles, when commanded to forgive, we would only be required to forgive when asked to do so.
After my first five years in TWI, I made a horrible mistake. My BC told me I had to forgive myself. Suggested I spent time in study on it. I discovered one of the best demonstrations of forgiveness as 'giving'. In other words if someone were to offend me and ask forgiveness, the highest form of showing forgiveness for the infraction would be to give 'something' back. I've learned that it could include time, a task, or anything small.
Regrettably, there are those in TWI that I respected at one time, who never asked for forgiveness. Consequently, I am not responsible to forgive them of Sxxt.
As for those in other ministries with infractions against God and man, I don't believe I am responsible to forgive them either since the infraction was not personally against me.
That verse in Romans the gifts and calling of God are without repentance. If someone has an actual ministry of God, they don't lose it if they screw up. They may lose peoples' trust, but they don't lose the ability to minister.
Couldn't that verse mean simply that God doesn't regret that he gave them the gift or calling in the first place, but that the gift or calling is no longer operative?
I always thought that it meant if you were given a gift or a calling and your actions were true to that calling--you had no need to apologize for those actions even if you stepped on some toes in the process.
Of course in that case it is incumbent upon you that you are 100% sure your actions are true to the gift or calling ---which is where the problems usually start IMO.
I think that forgivness without repentance is really detrimental to the one who has offended.
If someone is repeatedly forgiven without genuine repentance...they fail to suffer the consequences of their actions, many times they fail to see the need for change...they go through life not growing....kind of like some of the leaders saw in twi......wounding person after person....never experienceing true love of God....
Agreeing on the distinction between forgive and forget.
For the person who was wronged: When we forgive it's for ourselves. Forgiveness puts the onus of judgement on the Lord. Our job is to love, by giving Christ's love to others.
To refuse to forgive hurts the person who does so the most because it allows bitterness to take root in one's very own soul.
Refusing to forgive also, it seems creates a wall between a person and his Lord.
Jesus in those final words said, "Forgive them Father for they know not what they do," and for us to do different puts us out of sync with the Lord (and in the sink going down the drain).
For the wrong doer: Repenting (changing the course of one's life) and Restitution (restoring the right of a situation) is part of what one does to work out his or her own salvation.
And making things right with the Lord.
Between fellow men and between the Lord.
Being restored to church leadership I would say is an individual situation.
... and more on my opinion of eternal consequences: And since we deal with opinions here, and not facts of "absolute truth," I think that the references to people being crowns in the hereafter (I Thessalonians 2:19) signifies that a form of spiritual order will be found at that time as well.
In other words, I believe that Billy Graham, Norman Vincent Peale, and others I have found to have been truly godly leaders on earth -- and I think that these people have many other people in their crowns of rejoicing -- and I think that those crowning relationships will somehow be shown for all eternity (as will all the other crowns we are building today).
And therefore any truly spiritual greatness of a person will be shown / revealed.
In circa 1972, regarding a most precious cleaning lady in the hospital I worked, the Lord showed me she was a queen in His eyes. I expect the regal quality of Mrs. Pipkin (I think that was her name) and others of spiritual royalty will be more obvious and apparent when we get to heaven.
I expect that true scummy people will not even be there. I personally classify vpw as a scummy person.
And the Lord does have the whole world in His hand. Heaven's citizenship is the Lord's prerogative.
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wouldn't losing people's trust hamper your ability to minister to them?
invisibledan--vpw would NEVER have apologized. NEVER. it was not part of his repertoire. i don't think it was ever in his nature to do so, and once he'd erected his fortress of sycophants, he never had to face his fallibility again.
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rascal
Amen Raf!
We are told to steer away from folks like wierwille in the scriptures.
Forgiveness is between him and God. (None of my business in other words) *IF* he had repented and asked, it would have then been my responsibility...as stated in Luke 17:3
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Kevlar2000
Coincidentally, Invisible Dan's post put me in mind between another "invisible" character and one to whom the "mantle" was passed:
- Charles Dickens, A Christmas Carol
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lindyhopper
I agree with what most of you are saying. To me it is basically common sense. Although, I have trouble with what seems to be contradictory statements in some parts of the Bible. I also don't quite see that some here have forgiven when they say they have. I for one won't fault you for that. I personally don't see forgiveness as a required step in moving on or it as a stop block for bitterness.
To use as a frame of reference, as usual... a dictionary.
forgive-
1 To excuse for a fault or an offense; pardon.
2 To renounce anger or resentment against.
3 To absolve from payment of (a debt, for example).
Number 1 gives me a sense of restoring or reconciling. Simply because in my mind to pardon someone in prison, is to let them go free. Now that may not mean the victims of the crime have pardoned the person but the state has and has restored this person to a normal life. Around here I don't see many people excusing VPW or LCM of any faults.
#2 is more along the lines of what I think people are saying around here and is what those that post threads on why we need to forgive TWI leaders, are trying to get us to do in order to get rid of all our bitterness.
Although, when I read posts about what has happened to people many times by people that say they have moved on and forgiven, I still get a strong sense of anger and resentment. Again, I have no problem with that, if fact I think it is justified and I think there are still ways to move on and still have a healthy dose of anger.
#3 doesn't really apply here, although, there have been many threads in which people expressed how they wished they had all thier ABS back. lol. It would be nice.
So, to those that claim to have forgiven but not forgotten, in what way have you forgiven?
Are there biblical examples of forgiving but not forgetting? STL, gave some in which forgiveness meant restored to thier former position, although, I believe those involved repentence.
Then there are the Gospels I quoted in which two said just forgive and one said forgive after repentence. I see Rascal agrees the later is the accurate way to go. What about the rest of you? Raf said the earlier part of those verses, "judge not, and you will not be judged", is hyperbole. What about the forgiveness parts? Plus, isn't it kind of unforgiving of God to not forgive you just becasue you have not forgiven? Say all I have done is stolen and repented, but I haven't forgiven someone who molested me, does that seem just?
What about the verse in Matt 18?
Is he talking about different sins or about the same sin?What about the verse in Luke that Belle quoted?
If someone hits you let them do it again. If someone steals something from you, don't forbid them to take more from you. How do you make these verses line up for you in light of how you see forgiveness? It is clear there is forgiveness going on. Maybe you don't forget, but in these verses it seems like you are to act as though you have.
Lastly, there is Eph. 4 and 5 again. Chaper 4 gives a list of things not to do and ends with "forgive as God for Christ's sake has forgiven you." Chapter 5 begins with other sins in which it says they should not be named once among the saints and that there is no inheritance in the Kingdom of Christ and God. So is there a distinction in sins? Are there some that you should forgive while others you should just "leave up to God to sort out?"
OK, really last thing, is quoting Jesus's example really a legit thing to do in light of Mat 9:6, Mar 2:10, and Luk 5:24, in which it talks about the "Son of man" having "power on earth to forgive"?
Thats all for now.
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templelady
I ask God to look out for them and their well being.
I no longer ask for his wrath upon them
That does not mean that they are now, nor very likely will they ever be, an integral part of my life.
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Raf
I don't think Jesus ever intended to put somebody back into the motorcoach when he said "turn the other cheek," which is a response to an insult, not to physical abuse.
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allan w.
I still think Dennis Prager said it best !! "when forgiveness is a sin"
www.dennisprager.com/forgiveness.html
when forgiveness is a sin
Hey !!!! I think I finally managed to post a link correctly !!!!!
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CoolWaters
I think this best describes what I've come to understand as honest forgiveness.
I also think this is where many people who profess religion get things mixed up...at least in twi it was pretty mixed up...and I always got it mixed up until very, very recently.
Let it go does not equate to invite the people back into one's life.
That was a hard lesson for me to learn. I just didn't get it. It was either not forgive and keep people away or forgive and roll over for them. What my life ended up being like because of this black-and-white thinking was that I had way too many people in my life that shouldn't have been...and I know many people feel the same way towards me.
But that's OK. Ya know? Some people are just not a good mix. They feed each other's addictions. Or they bring out the worst in each other. Or they in some other way interact in unhealthy ways.
I didn't know that for all these years. I knew it in my head, but I didn't get it.
Now that I get it I find it much easier to forgive...honestly forgive. Because I don't have to worry about the next time the stuff might fly.
Ya know?
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watersedge
a butterfly goes in its own pattern and i supect a butterly "sees" whats ahead
forgiveness or the act of forgiving is almost like the flight of a butterfly
it takes MORE HEART to do it than the act itself
I was forgiven, according to the scripture, or so the story tells me
Does that mean i can't be held accountable for ME?
I am me you are you
ME AM WELL WITH THE LORD AND SO ARE YOU
The judge of my life is Jesus
and in God's name Jesus said YOU are worth the price paid
That's true forgiveness
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templelady
Allan W posts a link correctly and TL agrees with the link he posted
this is getting scary folks.........
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pond
Jesus says "love one another"
one anothering which means one then the other, it doesnt say just love till they suck your ability to love anymore away from you. then move on to the other person.
Love is an action which connotes action one anothering involves at least TWO people to do it.
If only one person is loving in a relationship it is NOT as Jesus comanded us to to do it says to "love one another".
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excathedra
too much information
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dmiller
Allan and TempleLady agreeing? There's 50 Miles of Elbow room to spare
Woops -- edited to give credit to the Broke Mountain Bluegrass Band -- who performed the song).
:)
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YIdon'tgotochurch
I looked up "FORGIVE" in a dictionary years ago. One of the definitions said, "To give in spite of..." I particularly preferred that definition.
I also preferred the teaching once given by LCM from I John 1:9.
"If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness."
The teaching basically made the point that the word "if" is conditional. So, if we don't confess our sins, God is not required to forgive.
Likewise, throughout the epistiles, when commanded to forgive, we would only be required to forgive when asked to do so.
After my first five years in TWI, I made a horrible mistake. My BC told me I had to forgive myself. Suggested I spent time in study on it. I discovered one of the best demonstrations of forgiveness as 'giving'. In other words if someone were to offend me and ask forgiveness, the highest form of showing forgiveness for the infraction would be to give 'something' back. I've learned that it could include time, a task, or anything small.
Regrettably, there are those in TWI that I respected at one time, who never asked for forgiveness. Consequently, I am not responsible to forgive them of Sxxt.
As for those in other ministries with infractions against God and man, I don't believe I am responsible to forgive them either since the infraction was not personally against me.
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Oakspear
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templelady
I always thought that it meant if you were given a gift or a calling and your actions were true to that calling--you had no need to apologize for those actions even if you stepped on some toes in the process.
Of course in that case it is incumbent upon you that you are 100% sure your actions are true to the gift or calling ---which is where the problems usually start IMO.
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rascal
Good points WhyI don`tgo....
I think that forgivness without repentance is really detrimental to the one who has offended.
If someone is repeatedly forgiven without genuine repentance...they fail to suffer the consequences of their actions, many times they fail to see the need for change...they go through life not growing....kind of like some of the leaders saw in twi......wounding person after person....never experienceing true love of God....
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Kit Sober
Agreeing on the distinction between forgive and forget.
For the person who was wronged: When we forgive it's for ourselves. Forgiveness puts the onus of judgement on the Lord. Our job is to love, by giving Christ's love to others.
To refuse to forgive hurts the person who does so the most because it allows bitterness to take root in one's very own soul.
Refusing to forgive also, it seems creates a wall between a person and his Lord.
Jesus in those final words said, "Forgive them Father for they know not what they do," and for us to do different puts us out of sync with the Lord (and in the sink going down the drain).
For the wrong doer: Repenting (changing the course of one's life) and Restitution (restoring the right of a situation) is part of what one does to work out his or her own salvation.
And making things right with the Lord.
Between fellow men and between the Lord.
Being restored to church leadership I would say is an individual situation.
... and more on my opinion of eternal consequences: And since we deal with opinions here, and not facts of "absolute truth," I think that the references to people being crowns in the hereafter (I Thessalonians 2:19) signifies that a form of spiritual order will be found at that time as well.
In other words, I believe that Billy Graham, Norman Vincent Peale, and others I have found to have been truly godly leaders on earth -- and I think that these people have many other people in their crowns of rejoicing -- and I think that those crowning relationships will somehow be shown for all eternity (as will all the other crowns we are building today).
And therefore any truly spiritual greatness of a person will be shown / revealed.
In circa 1972, regarding a most precious cleaning lady in the hospital I worked, the Lord showed me she was a queen in His eyes. I expect the regal quality of Mrs. Pipkin (I think that was her name) and others of spiritual royalty will be more obvious and apparent when we get to heaven.
I expect that true scummy people will not even be there. I personally classify vpw as a scummy person.
And the Lord does have the whole world in His hand. Heaven's citizenship is the Lord's prerogative.
Hopefully,
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WordWolf
This subject has come up again...
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Deciderator
I say forgive to the max.
It makes for a better life.
Carrying around bitterness over a perceived wrong will eat you up from the inside.
It can be a heavy burden.
Looking for excuses to not forgive is downright pathetic.
Forgive all you can and then a little more.
That's just how I roll............
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tFloat
Forgiveness is a given for a Christian
However, the objects of forgiveness must suffer the consequences of their actions.
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exwaycorps
If I may invoke the holy name of Oprah (the new messiah) just ask her ,she'll tell you
^ tongue in cheek
NOT forgiving...only eats at YOU,not them
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Deciderator
Nice one from Oparah.
It's easy to forgive those who have not really hurt you.
It's rather challenging to forgive those who have hurt you much.
It's like loving.
It's easy to love your friends and family, but not so easy when it is someone who annoys or hurts you.
We become better people the more we love and the more we forgive.
And why wait for someone to apologize?
Just forgive-em ahead of time and watch life get lighter and it become easier to love the person who offended you....
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WordWolf
I for one won't argue against that one, mainly because I can see it from Scripture.
Forgiveness may be DIFFICULT, but that does not make forgiveness WRONG.
====
Having established that (in your mind and mine, at any rate),
there was a SECOND issue, besides "simple" forgiveness.
What's your current thinking on the OTHER issue raised?
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