I really don't get the need for some kind of formal class. I mean, most of the guys heading up these Geerite groups are Corps grads who probably sat through PFAL dozens of times and maybe ran classes dozens of times. If they still adhere to most of the doctrine, which it's my impression they do, then why don't they just teach the stuff without all this rigamarole?
I certainly don't get the licensing thing at all. In my mind it's ridiculous that anyone would PAY for the privilege to run a class they charge money for.
Didn't any of these people step back and take a breath after leaving twi and reexamine their lives and their ministries (if they believe they have ministries)? I think not. I think they either felt safer sticking with the status quo or figured it was a good way to keep the money rolling in without having a real job.
How many of these people who held onto some sort of "leadership position" after getting the boot or walking away got off their dufffs and got a job to support their families? And of those who didn't, please don't try to tell me they're all "working the Word" and ministering to people 40, 50 hours a week like the rest of us who have to earn our keep.
Sorry...I guess I"m a bit off track, but this whole subject just irritates me, in case you couldn't tell.
A one year licence to run his class used to be $1000 or 10% of the ABS, whichever was greater, and you could only run a class within x number of miles from your location.
Hi Keith, these comments aren't directed at you, wer'e on the same wavelength I suspect, some of your points made me think. I've posted this comment before about the franchise arrangement, and I can't document it because I heard it in a meeting at the Way Nash years ago, where VP said he considered a franchise set up for PFAL at one time. Not that Mr. Geer can't have an original thought, but I'd guess he took that and ran with it. From a business standpoint it has advantages - you get your money upfront, regardless what anyone does with the product. Your income's predictable. The mileage restriction is a basic geographical sales model where licensed representatives have a protected area that's "theirs". No one else can make money in your area. He he he....cool....
Ultimately, that's where it goes - income and profits. If you charge a 100 bucks for it, and you can't get 10 people to buy it you're out money (besides maybe needing some sales training but that's another topic).
Most customers would probably say, well, it's not about the money or the profits, it's about the Word. And if that's the case, then why is money involved at all? Because it cost money to make it? Weeeeell, perhaps a more moral and ethical means of transferring the information is needed than charging for it. If people need it, desparately, to live truly fulfilled lives before God it seems kind of cheesey to charge for it. "Here, I know you're starving and I've got a sandwich right here. That'll be 50 bucks". Y'know?
What would people say if stores sold gallons of water at high prices to victims of Katrina when they were destitute? Well, it cost someone some money, ain't free. Yet even the grungiest "natural man" can find it in himself to give to the needy. It does seem a shame so many of God's Christian children have trouble doing the same - and with His own property! It's not ours to sell!
There are two classes which are available from him to run that I would concider well worth the price. (The $1000, not the 10% of the ABS) He has two Orientialism class made from Bishop Poli's (I know that name is not spelled right) which are very good. In fact the second one is really great.
I wonder if those are from the Bishop Pillai tapes he made, years ago at the Way? There were good. Don't know about a Grand Good, but they were good. Again, selling another persons work in a new package - well, dead horse, leave it alone.
And Geer is not the first to licence the teaching of "word of God in this way. Many groups have classes that they licence to run. Sometimes they are free and sometimes not. Most of the licences do not cost much more than the cost of the material.
Nope, Geer isn't the first and I doubt he'll be the last. God and Mammon, it's what's for dinner.
However, on a related note - this just in! I am almost ready to distribute my latest book and it's going to be worth every penny I'm not charging for it. To be titled "I've Got a Jack and I Want to Help YOU!", it's sure to thrill hearts everywhere! I'm not kidding, if you liked "Will the Real You Please Move Over, You're in My Spot", and "How to Win Friends Winning at Cards", you're gonna go nuts over this one. No coffee table should be without it.
Again, no money, no charge, no fee - ever! And if it wasn't such an incredible value I'd ship it regular book rate, but given the awesome power of the knowledge it contains I don't want it to fall into the wrong hands so I'll be shipping it Super Special Rate - please include 79.95 USD to handle the necessary shipping expense and it will be sent immediately! And remember - it's free!
P.S. Any deadbeats that can't afford the 79.95, don't bother asking as you're obviously not the kind of person that would fully appreciate a free offer like this.
Yes, the tapes are from Pallai's teachings at TWI. Geer did spend some time cleaning them up and putting together a very good book to go with them.
I really don't have a problem with people charging for a class or even putting one together. This is really no different to me than writing a book an charging for it. If I did the work I would expect to get paid for it. I have no problem with someone making a living teaching the word...as long as they are living the word that they teach, or at least trying to. What I would have a problem with is people taking the class and blindly accepting anything in it.
However, on a related note - this just in! I am almost ready to distribute my latest book and it's going to be worth every penny I'm not charging for it. To be titled "I've Got a Jack and I Want to Help YOU!", it's sure to thrill hearts everywhere! I'm not kidding, if you liked "Will the Real You Please Move Over, You're in My Spot", and "How to Win Friends Winning at Cards", you're gonna go nuts over this one. No coffee table should be without it.
A one year licence to run his class used to be $1000 or 10% of the ABS, whichever was greater, and you could only run a class within x number of miles from your location. Our group looked into once and felt that his was too much control to suit us.
With regards to the class fee and ABS............I'd venture to say that MANY of these guys worked the numbers of abundant sharing as the lion's share of profits that they'd be receiving in terms of the geer franchise. IMO, the geer label was the MOST ATTRACTIVE at the 1986 juncture....and would sway the majority of ex-twi followers into their fold.
During my twi tenure.......I ran plenty of class....but it was the ABS that put the ship to financial shores of plenty. The classes were merely an anchor.....relatively unseen but an important part of the vessel.
There is NO comparison.
ABS stokes the coffers.....and the big dogs know it.
Well I am sure that everyone will be pleased to know that Walter Cummins and Earl Burton have joined Chris Geer making it the Cummins, Burton, and Geer Fellowship. Talk about trying to get larger, well I can't say I would blame them it has been almost 20 years since the ministry fell apart. Well I thought I would stir this in with the conversation.
Well I am sure that everyone will be pleased to know that Walter Cummins and Earl Burton have joined Chris Geer making it the Cummins, Burton, and Geer Fellowship. Talk about trying to get larger, well I can't say I would blame them it has been almost 20 years since the ministry fell apart. Well I thought I would stir this in with the conversation.
Greg
Did they really?
When was this?
It's almost silly to ask with these guys, but was there any announcement anywhere,
HEY SOCKS!-----I've got a new book ready for release also. It's called " How To Win Freinds And Act Like A Human". Distribution will be restricted to only those above the "branch leader" level as I wish to reach as many as I can who are truly needful first. There may be exceptions to this rule based on a one on one examination of credentials.
I really don't have a problem with people charging for a class or even putting one together.
This is really no different to me than writing a book an charging for it.
I agree, as long as the material in the book is *original*, and NOT plagiarized from others.
Given your particular job -- I'm sure you understand this better than we do. ;)
Were I to put together a class (say -- about bluegrass fiddle picking), I would charge for it,
though I guess the $1,000 mark is kinda high, given my expertise!!
I also have no problem with folks charging for instructiion --
as long as they did the necessary *legwork* that resulted in said class/ instruction/ whatever.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
----- by the way, I was back home in Bloomington a week or so ago, and stopped in where you work to say hi (Sept. 1), but you were off that day, and I was leaving town the next day. You were next scheduled to be at work the 3rd (Sunday), and I couldn't hang around that long.
You're going to make a bundle waysider, I can feel it!
Keith, I - might...have a problem with someone selling B.P.'s reworked teachings. Mainly because at one time, those tapes were available at no charge. None. Free. O-nay oney-may. Ey-Fre of arge-chay. There's probably - dare I say, there ARE copies of the reel-to-reel around, if you know where to find them. Which is part of the problem - so many people charge either cash or membership for stuff like that, knowing ex-Wayfers have no other way to get Way-based materials unless they know some kind soul who would say Oh, those tapes? Sure, come on over, you can make a copy. Why not, y'know? Copyrights? Ownership? We're Christians, we march to a higher drum.
But, we all gotta make a living, I guess. In my little dream world I feel like I've managed to do it lo these many years without resembling a blood-sucking tic. But I'm probably tic-like in some respects, y'know? So maybe I shouldn't talk.
But I do, I do. Y'know. What are ya gonna do? I do. I just wish I could figure out how to make a buck off of it, here. Maybe some of you guys could send me some. I mean, I'm doing the work. Come on. Don't tell me you're not invigorated up the wazoo just reading this. If you aren't you will be, just give it time.
No the memo didn't get sent out, but I went to a Burton fellowship and they were mentioning that every once in a while. So they are all watching Geer's class and Cummins did the research for it.
There is very little original work in any biblical class or book. Most every one of them is re-working of someone's work. Copeland learned from Oral Roberts, Oral Roberts learn from someone else. Unless the work is the result of some newly discovered biblical texts and the person writing is the original worker almost everyone is teaching something that they learned from someone else. This is true also in music instruction. Mel Bay learned how to play guitar from someone, so in that sense those books are simply a reworking of someone else's material as well. We seem to have a double standard in this area when it comes to Bible teaching.
VPW - appears to have done some word for word plagerizing, and that really is not acceptable. I am not justifying this type of plagerizing.
I answered this on another thread but I'll do it here, too, my opposition to the man who tried to grab the throne and ascend to top man in the back of the Motorcoach.
For me, I believe the only throne he should qualify for is at a backwoods rest stop in Ohio where the entrance has an ugly kid playing a banjo.
Okay, sorry, I have to do it. I know they are my personal thoughts. But here is the five year old link where I said his POP was bogus:
Excellent piece of work. I hope you don't mind but I have copied that into PDF format so it can easily be sent or published.
Alleged things VPW said to Busboy. Oh, and of course none of it was recorded or written down in spite of the fact that TWI including "Coachboy" and VPW were anal retentive about recording things and filming things:
Comments a loving father allegedly made about his sons JP and Donnie, both of whom he loved very much:
"J.P. [John Paul Wierwille] is a nice guy, but spiritually he just doesn’t have it; he’s weak..."
"Son, (Dr. Wierwille allegedly speaking to Mr. Geer), I need to warn you, when I am gone what will happen is that Don (Wierwille) will really ‘flourish’. He will look like he is coming into his own and really developing. He may even start to talk like a biblical man. Son, it won’t be true; don’t believe it, it will just be a lie..."
And here is the POWER PLAY statement. (I couldn't have written it any better myself.)
"In my heart there were only two men who could have handled the Presidency, you and Craig. Right now there is only one man who can save the Ministry, that’s you..."
Ha, ha, ha, ha!
And people follow him, and listen to him?
Oh, God have mercy!! Step back and take a broad look.
I saw this whole thing develop before, during and after. Unlike many, we stayed in until 2000. It was so very obviously a power play that failed. The mistakes that ensued were what crushed it along with the corruption in the lives of both.
Hmmmm, Keith - Mel Bay is actually a good choice of comparison in certain respects Keith, and I assume you chose him because of that. Mel Bay designed and developed what has become the most basic and universally used and copied method of guitar instruction. Mel didn't invent the music, but he virtually iinvented his method of instruction and his pursuit of teaching is nothing short of inspirational.
But there is a double standard at play here and there should be IMO, by my own definition which I'll try to explain briefly.
I do not believe the the bible and instruction into it's most vital information should be sold or traded like other commodities because of what it is. It's content is sacred and holy, and speaks of God and at times for God. If a person believes that it's content is "god-breathed", that is out of the mouth of God, the ownership of the material isn't mine or yours to sell. If knowledge is gained about it's meaning and purpose, it deserves the highest treatment and value we can give it.
My view has less to do with who says they own what or who repackages what previous teaching or presenation, regardless of the media, and more to do with the source material. The fact that it's acceptable to buy and trade it piece meal doesn't make it right, in my view. Taking parts of it, so-called enlightened instruction into it's meaning and purpose and selling it in exchange for money is wrong. To me, there's no "your mileage may vary" on this or double standard, it's a standard of the highest mark that other standards can reflect or emulate, to everyone's benefit when it is.
While I do hold music in high regard, I don't hold it to the same standard as the bible.
It's no wonder though that organizations and businesses that buy and sell biblical "insight", instruction and teaching will attract people that will abuse other people. If they treat "God's Word" like a commodity, why not "God's people"?
Feel free to copy it and post where ever you need or send it around. I copyrighted it but I am now giving permission right here on GreaseSpot to post it on any sites, even GS. I have no plans to put it in a book. It was an article where I investigated POP and then let my frustrations out on things that happened to me in TWI. Anyone else can do the same. It is the most popular article on my site, even after five years.
Cut and paste this to a Word.doc and print out with my permission to use in its entirety, unedited.
That's as far as it goes a good point. However I believe a biblical teacher or author should receive material blessings as well as spiritual ones for his work. (before anyone asks me if I do... I don't) The priests in the OT lived off the offerings and from what I can tell even though Paul made every effort not to live off the people he was teaching, local leaders did receive some, and Paul used offerings from one area while he worked in another.
I don't see any way around dealing with the business system for book publishing and I really don't have a problem with charging for classes to off set cost and expenses which would include living expense while the class was put together if I worked full time on it. My prefered method of payment for classes and instruction however would be to take an offering and let God work in peoples heart how much to give.
I guess I've taken this tread somewhat off track and for that I apologize. So to put it slightly back on track in Geers lack of presences, the lack of an Advance Class, his terms of licence and the fact that many churches (and I do mean churches, not TWI splinters) that teach very simular things without the rules and restrictions has led to some shrinking among Chris Geers followers. I know of many die hard Geer followers who have realized that they can get spiritual food else where.
Yeah, Let me veer back on the train track too, Keith. It sounds like Geer doesn't advertise a church or any kind of a one-to-one pastoral function, rather it's an information service delivered in this franchise arrangement.
The franchise arrangment is an income generating system. Money comes in, year after year, for the same thing you got last year, plus whatever else gets added in, if it does (it sounds like). I "own" the orignal product and let you use it, for a price. The original product in this case would be my own teaching on the bible.
Of course, Jesus didn't run a business like that. If he were cast in the role of "representative for God", what He offered was pretty much free of physical taxes or charges. He emphasised the "heart" of the recipient, and their relationship with Himself and God. Practically speaking, Paul did too as well as others in the N.T. We read what happened, and a lot of people try to extract a process from it, a methodology. If I did that, the lionshare of what came in would go out, based on what I read. Physical offerings would be distributed to the church as there was need amongst the church - the elderly without means, the infirmed, widows with no income or family, those unable to care for themselves for any number of reasons, the sick, etc. etc. The Way's approach was to eliminate anyone who had any of those "problems", and keep all the income for their own purposes (although there was never any real interest in pursuing the actual example of the early church along these lines, that we know)
I see it really simply - on the one hand you've got business. People can make a living in any kind of business they want and if the product's useful to someone they'll make some money from it. The other side of the coin - "church business" is a completely different animal, and by the sounds of it, that dog doesn't bark much in Geer's operation. BUT - like I say, I don't know first hand, just the what I've read and heard. I would think it would shrink, or if not shrink take a smaller piece of the pie as ex-Wayfers in particular grow up, raise families and develop their lives.
Sounds to me like you've hit the nail on the head as far as what's going on. Pretty accurate discription from what I know about it.
Any group that only offers a canned Biblical product I believe is not really going to grow. TWI grew because they offered a really good home fellowship system for free, at least in the begining. As the home fellowship begain to be more controled and the teachings more controled, this was lost.
Off subject again...I agree that a church income should not be much more than it's outflow, for charity and other work and even support of its clergy. And I don't have a problem with classes run as a business by the church, but the money should be used for the good of the church (the people) and to help the needy and the class should never become the goal of the church.
Well I am sure that everyone will be pleased to know that Walter Cummins and Earl Burton have joined Chris Geer making it the Cummins, Burton, and Geer Fellowship. Talk about trying to get larger, well I can't say I would blame them it has been almost 20 years since the ministry fell apart. Well I thought I would stir this in with the conversation.
Greg
Speaking of W@lter Cummxins.........
The corps grad who recently left a geerite group told me that Cummxns new work on the gospels and the life of Jesus Christ is the new "acceptable standard"........according to many. Apparently the 2004 book by Rev. David Bergey entitled Jesus Christ Our Approach Offering is no longer touted now that Cummxns has come onboard. Surprise, surprise.
Seems to me, the alpha male superiority and adulation gets top rung. Just no room in religious hierarchy to give "a level playing field" to members in particular in the Body of Christ.
Getting back to "the word".....indeed? NOT
I've read Bergey's work.....good stuff.
Table of contents:
chapter 1.................Introduction: Jesus Christ, The Way into God's Presence
chapter 2.................Leviticus: Approaching God with an Approach Offering
chapter 3.................Approaching God in Prayer
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Linda Z
I really don't get the need for some kind of formal class. I mean, most of the guys heading up these Geerite groups are Corps grads who probably sat through PFAL dozens of times and maybe ran classes dozens of times. If they still adhere to most of the doctrine, which it's my impression they do, then why don't they just teach the stuff without all this rigamarole?
I certainly don't get the licensing thing at all. In my mind it's ridiculous that anyone would PAY for the privilege to run a class they charge money for.
Didn't any of these people step back and take a breath after leaving twi and reexamine their lives and their ministries (if they believe they have ministries)? I think not. I think they either felt safer sticking with the status quo or figured it was a good way to keep the money rolling in without having a real job.
How many of these people who held onto some sort of "leadership position" after getting the boot or walking away got off their dufffs and got a job to support their families? And of those who didn't, please don't try to tell me they're all "working the Word" and ministering to people 40, 50 hours a week like the rest of us who have to earn our keep.
Sorry...I guess I"m a bit off track, but this whole subject just irritates me, in case you couldn't tell.
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socks
Ultimately, that's where it goes - income and profits. If you charge a 100 bucks for it, and you can't get 10 people to buy it you're out money (besides maybe needing some sales training but that's another topic).
Most customers would probably say, well, it's not about the money or the profits, it's about the Word. And if that's the case, then why is money involved at all? Because it cost money to make it? Weeeeell, perhaps a more moral and ethical means of transferring the information is needed than charging for it. If people need it, desparately, to live truly fulfilled lives before God it seems kind of cheesey to charge for it. "Here, I know you're starving and I've got a sandwich right here. That'll be 50 bucks". Y'know?
What would people say if stores sold gallons of water at high prices to victims of Katrina when they were destitute? Well, it cost someone some money, ain't free. Yet even the grungiest "natural man" can find it in himself to give to the needy. It does seem a shame so many of God's Christian children have trouble doing the same - and with His own property! It's not ours to sell!
I wonder if those are from the Bishop Pillai tapes he made, years ago at the Way? There were good. Don't know about a Grand Good, but they were good. Again, selling another persons work in a new package - well, dead horse, leave it alone.
Nope, Geer isn't the first and I doubt he'll be the last. God and Mammon, it's what's for dinner.
However, on a related note - this just in! I am almost ready to distribute my latest book and it's going to be worth every penny I'm not charging for it. To be titled "I've Got a Jack and I Want to Help YOU!", it's sure to thrill hearts everywhere! I'm not kidding, if you liked "Will the Real You Please Move Over, You're in My Spot", and "How to Win Friends Winning at Cards", you're gonna go nuts over this one. No coffee table should be without it.
Again, no money, no charge, no fee - ever! And if it wasn't such an incredible value I'd ship it regular book rate, but given the awesome power of the knowledge it contains I don't want it to fall into the wrong hands so I'll be shipping it Super Special Rate - please include 79.95 USD to handle the necessary shipping expense and it will be sent immediately! And remember - it's free!
P.S. Any deadbeats that can't afford the 79.95, don't bother asking as you're obviously not the kind of person that would fully appreciate a free offer like this.
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Keith
Yes, the tapes are from Pallai's teachings at TWI. Geer did spend some time cleaning them up and putting together a very good book to go with them.
I really don't have a problem with people charging for a class or even putting one together. This is really no different to me than writing a book an charging for it. If I did the work I would expect to get paid for it. I have no problem with someone making a living teaching the word...as long as they are living the word that they teach, or at least trying to. What I would have a problem with is people taking the class and blindly accepting anything in it.
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skyrider
Socks......good stuff. You're a real card!
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skyrider
With regards to the class fee and ABS............I'd venture to say that MANY of these guys worked the numbers of abundant sharing as the lion's share of profits that they'd be receiving in terms of the geer franchise. IMO, the geer label was the MOST ATTRACTIVE at the 1986 juncture....and would sway the majority of ex-twi followers into their fold.
During my twi tenure.......I ran plenty of class....but it was the ABS that put the ship to financial shores of plenty. The classes were merely an anchor.....relatively unseen but an important part of the vessel.
There is NO comparison.
ABS stokes the coffers.....and the big dogs know it.
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greg123
Well I am sure that everyone will be pleased to know that Walter Cummins and Earl Burton have joined Chris Geer making it the Cummins, Burton, and Geer Fellowship. Talk about trying to get larger, well I can't say I would blame them it has been almost 20 years since the ministry fell apart. Well I thought I would stir this in with the conversation.
Greg
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A la prochaine
I have one question to ask.
With all these monies being directed to Geer ... does he grace them with his presence?
Is he with his flock, pastoring them, getting into the valley of human need? Does he do anything of the sort?
Or does he just sit in his tower of 'bible' waiting for the money to show up in his mailbox?
God I hate these windbag
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WordWolf
Did they really?
When was this?
It's almost silly to ask with these guys, but was there any announcement anywhere,
or is it a secret as usual?
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waysider
HEY SOCKS!-----I've got a new book ready for release also. It's called " How To Win Freinds And Act Like A Human". Distribution will be restricted to only those above the "branch leader" level as I wish to reach as many as I can who are truly needful first. There may be exceptions to this rule based on a one on one examination of credentials.
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dmiller
Hey there Keith -- how be ye??
Something you said ----
I agree, as long as the material in the book is *original*, and NOT plagiarized from others.
Given your particular job -- I'm sure you understand this better than we do. ;)
Were I to put together a class (say -- about bluegrass fiddle picking), I would charge for it,
though I guess the $1,000 mark is kinda high, given my expertise!!
I also have no problem with folks charging for instructiion --
as long as they did the necessary *legwork* that resulted in said class/ instruction/ whatever.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
I shoulda stopped in earlier in the week. :(
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socks
Keith, I - might...have a problem with someone selling B.P.'s reworked teachings. Mainly because at one time, those tapes were available at no charge. None. Free. O-nay oney-may. Ey-Fre of arge-chay. There's probably - dare I say, there ARE copies of the reel-to-reel around, if you know where to find them. Which is part of the problem - so many people charge either cash or membership for stuff like that, knowing ex-Wayfers have no other way to get Way-based materials unless they know some kind soul who would say Oh, those tapes? Sure, come on over, you can make a copy. Why not, y'know? Copyrights? Ownership? We're Christians, we march to a higher drum.
But, we all gotta make a living, I guess. In my little dream world I feel like I've managed to do it lo these many years without resembling a blood-sucking tic. But I'm probably tic-like in some respects, y'know? So maybe I shouldn't talk.
But I do, I do. Y'know. What are ya gonna do? I do. I just wish I could figure out how to make a buck off of it, here. Maybe some of you guys could send me some. I mean, I'm doing the work. Come on. Don't tell me you're not invigorated up the wazoo just reading this. If you aren't you will be, just give it time.
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greg123
No the memo didn't get sent out, but I went to a Burton fellowship and they were mentioning that every once in a while. So they are all watching Geer's class and Cummins did the research for it.
Greg
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Keith
There is very little original work in any biblical class or book. Most every one of them is re-working of someone's work. Copeland learned from Oral Roberts, Oral Roberts learn from someone else. Unless the work is the result of some newly discovered biblical texts and the person writing is the original worker almost everyone is teaching something that they learned from someone else. This is true also in music instruction. Mel Bay learned how to play guitar from someone, so in that sense those books are simply a reworking of someone else's material as well. We seem to have a double standard in this area when it comes to Bible teaching.
VPW - appears to have done some word for word plagerizing, and that really is not acceptable. I am not justifying this type of plagerizing.
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sprawled out
too bad about cummins and geer. i always liked walter. :(
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Eagle
I answered this on another thread but I'll do it here, too, my opposition to the man who tried to grab the throne and ascend to top man in the back of the Motorcoach.
For me, I believe the only throne he should qualify for is at a backwoods rest stop in Ohio where the entrance has an ugly kid playing a banjo.
Okay, sorry, I have to do it. I know they are my personal thoughts. But here is the five year old link where I said his POP was bogus:
Drawing Swords
If this guy really had date rape cocktails, he could use it on the guy that likes his partners to squeal like a pig...
P....d off thinking about it.
Eagle
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igotout
Excellent piece of work. I hope you don't mind but I have copied that into PDF format so it can easily be sent or published.
Alleged things VPW said to Busboy. Oh, and of course none of it was recorded or written down in spite of the fact that TWI including "Coachboy" and VPW were anal retentive about recording things and filming things:
Comments a loving father allegedly made about his sons JP and Donnie, both of whom he loved very much:
"J.P. [John Paul Wierwille] is a nice guy, but spiritually he just doesn’t have it; he’s weak..."
"Son, (Dr. Wierwille allegedly speaking to Mr. Geer), I need to warn you, when I am gone what will happen is that Don (Wierwille) will really ‘flourish’. He will look like he is coming into his own and really developing. He may even start to talk like a biblical man. Son, it won’t be true; don’t believe it, it will just be a lie..."
And here is the POWER PLAY statement. (I couldn't have written it any better myself.)
"In my heart there were only two men who could have handled the Presidency, you and Craig. Right now there is only one man who can save the Ministry, that’s you..."
Ha, ha, ha, ha!
And people follow him, and listen to him?
Oh, God have mercy!! Step back and take a broad look.
I saw this whole thing develop before, during and after. Unlike many, we stayed in until 2000. It was so very obviously a power play that failed. The mistakes that ensued were what crushed it along with the corruption in the lives of both.
Thanks, guys, you axxholes.
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socks
Hmmmm, Keith - Mel Bay is actually a good choice of comparison in certain respects Keith, and I assume you chose him because of that. Mel Bay designed and developed what has become the most basic and universally used and copied method of guitar instruction. Mel didn't invent the music, but he virtually iinvented his method of instruction and his pursuit of teaching is nothing short of inspirational.
But there is a double standard at play here and there should be IMO, by my own definition which I'll try to explain briefly.
I do not believe the the bible and instruction into it's most vital information should be sold or traded like other commodities because of what it is. It's content is sacred and holy, and speaks of God and at times for God. If a person believes that it's content is "god-breathed", that is out of the mouth of God, the ownership of the material isn't mine or yours to sell. If knowledge is gained about it's meaning and purpose, it deserves the highest treatment and value we can give it.
My view has less to do with who says they own what or who repackages what previous teaching or presenation, regardless of the media, and more to do with the source material. The fact that it's acceptable to buy and trade it piece meal doesn't make it right, in my view. Taking parts of it, so-called enlightened instruction into it's meaning and purpose and selling it in exchange for money is wrong. To me, there's no "your mileage may vary" on this or double standard, it's a standard of the highest mark that other standards can reflect or emulate, to everyone's benefit when it is.
While I do hold music in high regard, I don't hold it to the same standard as the bible.
It's no wonder though that organizations and businesses that buy and sell biblical "insight", instruction and teaching will attract people that will abuse other people. If they treat "God's Word" like a commodity, why not "God's people"?
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Eagle
igotout:
Feel free to copy it and post where ever you need or send it around. I copyrighted it but I am now giving permission right here on GreaseSpot to post it on any sites, even GS. I have no plans to put it in a book. It was an article where I investigated POP and then let my frustrations out on things that happened to me in TWI. Anyone else can do the same. It is the most popular article on my site, even after five years.
Cut and paste this to a Word.doc and print out with my permission to use in its entirety, unedited.
Eagle
(Stephen J. Spencer)
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skyrider
Thanks Eagle.
I appreciate you adding that link to this thread. Nice.
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WordWolf
I agree.
Like some other resources, I find it a good thing to read through your paper from time to time,
to refresh my memory. (I don't agree with every single word, but I find even what I disagree
with to be instructive in its own fashion.)
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Keith
Socks,
That's as far as it goes a good point. However I believe a biblical teacher or author should receive material blessings as well as spiritual ones for his work. (before anyone asks me if I do... I don't) The priests in the OT lived off the offerings and from what I can tell even though Paul made every effort not to live off the people he was teaching, local leaders did receive some, and Paul used offerings from one area while he worked in another.
I don't see any way around dealing with the business system for book publishing and I really don't have a problem with charging for classes to off set cost and expenses which would include living expense while the class was put together if I worked full time on it. My prefered method of payment for classes and instruction however would be to take an offering and let God work in peoples heart how much to give.
I guess I've taken this tread somewhat off track and for that I apologize. So to put it slightly back on track in Geers lack of presences, the lack of an Advance Class, his terms of licence and the fact that many churches (and I do mean churches, not TWI splinters) that teach very simular things without the rules and restrictions has led to some shrinking among Chris Geers followers. I know of many die hard Geer followers who have realized that they can get spiritual food else where.
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socks
Yeah, Let me veer back on the train track too, Keith. It sounds like Geer doesn't advertise a church or any kind of a one-to-one pastoral function, rather it's an information service delivered in this franchise arrangement.
The franchise arrangment is an income generating system. Money comes in, year after year, for the same thing you got last year, plus whatever else gets added in, if it does (it sounds like). I "own" the orignal product and let you use it, for a price. The original product in this case would be my own teaching on the bible.
Of course, Jesus didn't run a business like that. If he were cast in the role of "representative for God", what He offered was pretty much free of physical taxes or charges. He emphasised the "heart" of the recipient, and their relationship with Himself and God. Practically speaking, Paul did too as well as others in the N.T. We read what happened, and a lot of people try to extract a process from it, a methodology. If I did that, the lionshare of what came in would go out, based on what I read. Physical offerings would be distributed to the church as there was need amongst the church - the elderly without means, the infirmed, widows with no income or family, those unable to care for themselves for any number of reasons, the sick, etc. etc. The Way's approach was to eliminate anyone who had any of those "problems", and keep all the income for their own purposes (although there was never any real interest in pursuing the actual example of the early church along these lines, that we know)
I see it really simply - on the one hand you've got business. People can make a living in any kind of business they want and if the product's useful to someone they'll make some money from it. The other side of the coin - "church business" is a completely different animal, and by the sounds of it, that dog doesn't bark much in Geer's operation. BUT - like I say, I don't know first hand, just the what I've read and heard. I would think it would shrink, or if not shrink take a smaller piece of the pie as ex-Wayfers in particular grow up, raise families and develop their lives.
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Keith
Sounds to me like you've hit the nail on the head as far as what's going on. Pretty accurate discription from what I know about it.
Any group that only offers a canned Biblical product I believe is not really going to grow. TWI grew because they offered a really good home fellowship system for free, at least in the begining. As the home fellowship begain to be more controled and the teachings more controled, this was lost.
Off subject again...I agree that a church income should not be much more than it's outflow, for charity and other work and even support of its clergy. And I don't have a problem with classes run as a business by the church, but the money should be used for the good of the church (the people) and to help the needy and the class should never become the goal of the church.
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skyrider
Speaking of W@lter Cummxins.........
The corps grad who recently left a geerite group told me that Cummxns new work on the gospels and the life of Jesus Christ is the new "acceptable standard"........according to many. Apparently the 2004 book by Rev. David Bergey entitled Jesus Christ Our Approach Offering is no longer touted now that Cummxns has come onboard. Surprise, surprise.
Seems to me, the alpha male superiority and adulation gets top rung. Just no room in religious hierarchy to give "a level playing field" to members in particular in the Body of Christ.
Getting back to "the word".....indeed? NOT
I've read Bergey's work.....good stuff.
Table of contents:
chapter 1.................Introduction: Jesus Christ, The Way into God's Presence
chapter 2.................Leviticus: Approaching God with an Approach Offering
chapter 3.................Approaching God in Prayer
chapter 4.................Jesus Christ: Our Approach Offering
chapter 5.................The Veil Rent
chapter 6.................Our Right of Boldness in Approach
chapter 7.................Without Blemish Before Him in Love
chapter 8.................Holy Before Him in Love
chapter 9.................The Intimacy of Our Approach
chapter 10...............The Final Approach
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