Reading your quote if it is quoted correctly as it stands is correct, many have lost or choose to discontinue their license agreements. You then add that their affiliation was on shaky ground. Was that a guess by you, or an assumption. I know of a few of those groups and their affiliation is just fine they just can't run the classes that Word Promotions offers it is not even close to the TWI spiritual probation you speak of. The agreement you speak about has always been a dead end street it is way too much IMHO for what you got in return. I looked at it when it was first available to sign on, quickly running the numbers it was easy to see that after you exhausted your repeat attendees that unless you kept finding lots and I mean lots of new people to run through a class you would be paying out more than you would bring in. Secondly the days of folks spending their weekends sitting back through something the have heard a hundred times are over not to mention getting a sitter and in most cases driving to somewhere else to do so, the expense is prohibitive. It does not take a rocket scientist to figure out that unless you wanted to pay for that right out of your pocket you would maybe make it a year or so before bottoming out. Unless as I said your goal was to be a full time class recruiter. Some people charged ahead anyway thinking it would work out somehow, they thought wrong.
That said and this gets back to what I said on the other thread each of these fellowships are independent Word Promotions is a producer of materials classes, CD's ,Books ect. Much like CES in it's early days they offer teachings and such for groups that wish to access it they do not run any fellowships. if you want that you do the agreement, if not you are still free to do as you wish at your fellowship. there is no "shaky ground". There are a lot of groups that have former way leaders that still think they are running a limb branch, region or whatever, and that other fellowships in the area need to approve their direction with them. You can't hold Chris responsible for other people acting like a**hol*s no more so than you would want to be accountable for my actions because we both have a affiliation that we post on greasespot. From time to time I access things from Word Promotions and I receive their newsletter a few times a year despite declining to be a licensee and despite the fact that I do not have that good of a relationship with the area licensee here. Their response to me has been fine certainly not the shaky ground you spoke of.
Reading your quote if it is quoted correctly as it stands is correct, many have lost or choose to discontinue their license agreements. You then add that their affiliation was on shaky ground. Was that a guess by you, or an assumption. I know of a few of those groups and their affiliation is just fine they just can't run the classes that Word Promotions offers....
Thanks WhiteDove,
I understand the part about losing or choosing to discontinue their license agreements. I think what this corps grad was referring to was the clergyman's association with other peers......feeling like he'd failed and was doing a second-rate work without the geer license.
For indeed.........if the geer-franchise/license is the working model of success, then to "lose this license" is backsliding, sorta speak. Dunno though.
Still don't quite understand how it all works. I mean...........if Doug Sxxd lost this geer franchise/contract (as I heard from this corps grad), can "his people" or "area of influence" STILL ATTEND the summer camps when geerites get together???
I know you say that they're independent.........but, it seems to me, that they still fly the same flag of allegiance. Because........if they're "independent" then why do they congregate with only like affliation at these summer camps?
I understand the part about losing or choosing to discontinue their license agreements. I think what this corps grad was referring to was the clergyman's association with other peers......feeling like he'd failed and was doing a second-rate work without the geer license.
For indeed.........if the geer-franchise/license is the working model of success, then to "lose this license" is backsliding, sorta speak. Dunno though.
Still don't quite understand how it all works. I mean...........if Doug Sxxd lost this geer franchise/contract (as I heard from this corps grad), can "his people" or "area of influence" STILL ATTEND the summer camps when geerites get together???
I know you say that they're independent.........but, it seems to me, that they still fly the same flag of allegiance. Because........if they're "independent" then why do they congregate with only like affliation at these summer camps?
I can see how some people would feel that way perhaps it is a carry over from the Way and that is too bad I don't really know what to say about that . To me it was a class there are others like it not that big a deal.
Now about Doug to my knowledge his camps are open to all,and run by Biblical Studies and Fellowship his group though I have never attended I get his mailing ,letters and such. They would be independant of his licence with Word Promotions so yes he could offer the camp to any and all as he does now as far as I can see. The exception I guess that goes without saying is unless someone was there for the intent of disrupting the camp. You bring up a point perhaps people assume that they can not attend because they are not involved with Geer, but in all the years I have to say that none of the mailings implied or stated such an idea. And I have listened to the tapes of the camps from Doug and there was no mention of Chris Geer,Word Promotions or any of it's products for that matter. By the way the one on prayer was wonderful .
I doubt that the family camp would change at all if Doug lost his licence for Walking in God's Power Classes.
LOl If I told you Excie I'd have to kill you. And I would not wanna do that :(
I'll say this it is in the thousands of dollars as I said more than I would want to pay. There are also some other non financial things involoved. one of which is not to discuss the agreement conditions. So now I have to go kill myself or not......
"trustee stab and power grab" Great line. Bet he won't print it on his "green card" though.
As to Geer and his followers, I certainly can't offer you any wisdom. I cannot see for the life of me how anyone could read POP and then follow the guy.
As to Geer and his followers, I certainly can't offer you any wisdom. I cannot see for the life of me how anyone could read POP and then follow the guy.
I'd bet money none of them's read it in the last 3 years, especially after any discussion
of the actual events that are vaguely alluded to in PoP.
Every time I look it over nowadays, it just gets more and more surreal,
I'll say this it is in the thousands of dollars as I said more than I would want to pay. There are also some other non financial things involoved. one of which is not to discuss the agreement conditions. So now I have to go kill myself or not......
Kinda like.........."the secrecy of his (geer's) success is the secrecy of his (geer's) moves."
I once read here that as part of the deal Geer gets a percentage of the local group's ABS.
I can corroborate what Dove said. I was involved in the early days of the Geer tapes, classes, licensing. My ex and I also looked into the license and came to the same conclusion as Dove. We opted to provide original teachings and not recycle others' classes, etc.
I was involved, as I said, with Geer groups in 4 different states. None of them made taking the classes a requirement. Nor did most require any allegience to CG. A few were more "wierwille worshippers" or CG "namedroppers" than others saying things like "Dr. this" and "Dr. said that" and would drop all their "interpretation according to someone's usage" stuff. Some kept in closer touch with CG than others and the "insiders" were very much into the same hierarchical "take the classes" bingo - - fill your card and you're better than everyone else cuz "I'VE HAD THE CLASS!!!!".
For the most part, the fellowships were very casual, and the people were very sincere. I just got over the worship of men stuff when I left the Catholic Church and didn't buy into it too much in twi, so I would get the creeps in the geer groups when that stuff would come up. And many of those guys really treat women like crap. Some of them have stepford wives still so the mentality towards strong, bright, educated women was typically that we were "rebellious" or "needed to learn our place". Yes, massah.
And I can vouch for Doug S. in Calif. on the family camps. You did not have to be in his group or any other offshoot group to attend any of the camps. They were just like a mini-ROA from the early days. Prett harmless and sweet. I've heard the same things about John Hill's camps.
And many of those guys really treat women like crap. Some of them have stepford wives still so the mentality towards strong, bright, educated women was typically that we were "rebellious" or "needed to learn our place". Yes, massah.
J your killing me here.....
She right of course and I've seen some of them recommend their jock mentality buddies who have no real life skills to unfortunate women looking for a good husband. Yea they are the worlds greatest salesman doing well until next week when it somehow didn't work out but the wife has a real job. Pathetic.......
Geer's "nod from God" would more appropriately be qualified as a "trustee stab and power grab."
Ha, ha, ha, ha. Well stated Skyrider. Gawd, it is so obvious.
And the stories I could tell you about busboy when we were in the Corps, well before he ascended mount New Knoxville.
This picture is how I best remember driver boy (fisrst in the picture in front IN CONTROL of Dr & Mrs. It is sooooo figurative. And look at that biiiig smile.
It was all BUSINESS for scary Geery. Was he a nice guy? To some, Im sure. Oh, and excathedra could tell you MUCH more. But I am not sure it can be appropriately posted on this site.
Sadly, Geerites do not even realize that they are clones of TWI II. THey are so "exclusive" as Skyrider so well describes. They shun you.......very nicely..... if you are not in the household of believers. This also makes them dull and boring and missing out on much life has to offer. Some will stay in their little "spiritual club" till they die. Sounds so very much like TWI. What a way to live.
Not me! We wasted enough years in TWI, let alone in a clone of it.
LOl If I told you Excie I'd have to kill you. And I would not wanna do that :(
I'll say this it is in the thousands of dollars as I said more than I would want to pay. There are also some other non financial things involoved. one of which is not to discuss the agreement conditions.So now I have to go kill myself or not......
And this is a godly organization, how? Why on earth would anyone in their right mind submit to this kind of control, secrecy and extortion?
I don't know Belle I've had some jobs over the years where disclosing your salary was grounds for dismissal I suppose that was control and secrecy also. The details of many corporate license agreements are not know ,it's business. I would guess that partly the reason would be to not add fuel to fire of his detractors and really if we aren't paying it ,it probably is none of our business. It's his material I say let him market it the way he wants if it is worth the price on the free market time will tell or in this case has told. You can ask whatever price you want for a service,i f you get iit may or may not happen. I think the price paid was too high for the product, some did not ,some did not but found out it was they just did not know it, some did and are happy. Works for me.......
Of course not. Why give away part of your profits when you can run your own classes and tapes for 100% prophet. More MONEY.
Don't kid yourself....that is at the heart of a lot of it. Greenbacks!!
Some of these ministers are living large off the foundation which they got soley from TWI. Remember when it was common prcactice to "encourage" people NOT to send in their ABS to TWI? I do.
Tens of thousands a month flowed elsewhere of course. It is rumored that one ex-leader lives in a million dollar house. Others are living large.
Free country I suppose. That happens in BUSINESSES all the time. Some of them are just that. Not ministries.
As Skyrider pointed out.......show us your NEW, NEW, NEW people. Not rehashed ex-TWI former foillowers who can't let go. They are all getting old and boring and their children are getting up there too.
No longer is the "geer label" needed to leverage the allegiance of many ex-wayfers into their folds. For surely, 18 years of association (for many) has rooted their convictions and friendships. And, unless geer is pumping new and exciting classes into the works........most, I would assume, have repeated the standard classes enough times.
It really comes down to business. Like WhiteDove stated, he "ran the numbers" when first looking at the geer contract and decided against it. Others....with a larger influence and/or area....signed on the line and have made a go of it.
To me.......it sounds like modern-day business activity, like a MLM.
Not quite the book of Acts in operation, IMO. Just re-packaging the pfal package with different colors and contents that stimulate academic exercises and elitism.
No longer is the "geer label" needed to leverage the allegiance of many ex-wayfers into their folds. For surely, 18 years of association (for many) has rooted their convictions and friendships. And, unless geer is pumping new and exciting classes into the works........most, I would assume, have repeated the standard classes enough times.
It really comes down to business. Like WhiteDove stated, he "ran the numbers" when first looking at the geer contract and decided against it. Others....with a larger influence and/or area....signed on the line and have made a go of it.
To me.......it sounds like modern-day business activity, like a MLM.
Not quite the book of Acts in operation, IMO. Just re-packaging the pfal package with different colors and contents that stimulate academic exercises and elitism.
..and, lest we forget,
this MLM comes complete with keeping expenses secret,
which is the OPPOSITE of nice, healthy non-profit organizations,
but is often found among conventional businesses-
organizations specifically structured to value MAKING MONEY
as opposed to SERVING GOD.
Which business model is a trustworthy one for CHRISTIANS?
You can answer that for your own consciences, but I have my answer.
A one year licence to run his class used to be $1000 or 10% of the ABS, whichever was greater, and you could only run a class within x number of miles from your location. Our group looked into once and felt that his was too much control to suit us.
One of the other reasons why these groups might be letting their contracts lapse is because it has taken so long to get an Advanced Class. It is always, almost there, but not yet. There are two classes which are available from him to run that I would concider well worth the price. (The $1000, not the 10% of the ABS) He has two Orientialism class made from Bishop Poli's (I know that name is not spelled right) which are very good. In fact the second one is really great. But then you could take these classes and play them in almost any church without cause any real problems.
And Geer is not the first to licence the teaching of "word of God in this way. Many groups have classes that they licence to run. Sometimes they are free and sometimes not. Most of the licences do not cost much more than the cost of the material.
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Reading your quote if it is quoted correctly as it stands is correct, many have lost or choose to discontinue their license agreements. You then add that their affiliation was on shaky ground. Was that a guess by you, or an assumption. I know of a few of those groups and their affiliation is just fine they just can't run the classes that Word Promotions offers it is not even close to the TWI spiritual probation you speak of. The agreement you speak about has always been a dead end street it is way too much IMHO for what you got in return. I looked at it when it was first available to sign on, quickly running the numbers it was easy to see that after you exhausted your repeat attendees that unless you kept finding lots and I mean lots of new people to run through a class you would be paying out more than you would bring in. Secondly the days of folks spending their weekends sitting back through something the have heard a hundred times are over not to mention getting a sitter and in most cases driving to somewhere else to do so, the expense is prohibitive. It does not take a rocket scientist to figure out that unless you wanted to pay for that right out of your pocket you would maybe make it a year or so before bottoming out. Unless as I said your goal was to be a full time class recruiter. Some people charged ahead anyway thinking it would work out somehow, they thought wrong.
That said and this gets back to what I said on the other thread each of these fellowships are independent Word Promotions is a producer of materials classes, CD's ,Books ect. Much like CES in it's early days they offer teachings and such for groups that wish to access it they do not run any fellowships. if you want that you do the agreement, if not you are still free to do as you wish at your fellowship. there is no "shaky ground". There are a lot of groups that have former way leaders that still think they are running a limb branch, region or whatever, and that other fellowships in the area need to approve their direction with them. You can't hold Chris responsible for other people acting like a**hol*s no more so than you would want to be accountable for my actions because we both have a affiliation that we post on greasespot. From time to time I access things from Word Promotions and I receive their newsletter a few times a year despite declining to be a licensee and despite the fact that I do not have that good of a relationship with the area licensee here. Their response to me has been fine certainly not the shaky ground you spoke of.
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skyrider
Thanks WhiteDove,
I understand the part about losing or choosing to discontinue their license agreements. I think what this corps grad was referring to was the clergyman's association with other peers......feeling like he'd failed and was doing a second-rate work without the geer license.
For indeed.........if the geer-franchise/license is the working model of success, then to "lose this license" is backsliding, sorta speak. Dunno though.
Still don't quite understand how it all works. I mean...........if Doug Sxxd lost this geer franchise/contract (as I heard from this corps grad), can "his people" or "area of influence" STILL ATTEND the summer camps when geerites get together???
I know you say that they're independent.........but, it seems to me, that they still fly the same flag of allegiance. Because........if they're "independent" then why do they congregate with only like affliation at these summer camps?
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Out There
Geer was the first person I ever know to License the Word of God. I think that should put him in the history books somehow
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WhiteDove
I can see how some people would feel that way perhaps it is a carry over from the Way and that is too bad I don't really know what to say about that . To me it was a class there are others like it not that big a deal.
Now about Doug to my knowledge his camps are open to all,and run by Biblical Studies and Fellowship his group though I have never attended I get his mailing ,letters and such. They would be independant of his licence with Word Promotions so yes he could offer the camp to any and all as he does now as far as I can see. The exception I guess that goes without saying is unless someone was there for the intent of disrupting the camp. You bring up a point perhaps people assume that they can not attend because they are not involved with Geer, but in all the years I have to say that none of the mailings implied or stated such an idea. And I have listened to the tapes of the camps from Doug and there was no mention of Chris Geer,Word Promotions or any of it's products for that matter. By the way the one on prayer was wonderful .
I doubt that the family camp would change at all if Doug lost his licence for Walking in God's Power Classes.
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excathedra
what's the contract say and what's the cost ?
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WhiteDove
LOl If I told you Excie I'd have to kill you. And I would not wanna do that :(
I'll say this it is in the thousands of dollars as I said more than I would want to pay. There are also some other non financial things involoved. one of which is not to discuss the agreement conditions. So now I have to go kill myself
or not......
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TOMMYZ
I once read here that as part of the deal Geer gets a percentage of the local group's ABS.
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Jim
"trustee stab and power grab" Great line. Bet he won't print it on his "green card" though.
As to Geer and his followers, I certainly can't offer you any wisdom. I cannot see for the life of me how anyone could read POP and then follow the guy.
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WordWolf
I'd bet money none of them's read it in the last 3 years, especially after any discussion
of the actual events that are vaguely alluded to in PoP.
Every time I look it over nowadays, it just gets more and more surreal,
as 20/20 hindsight kicks in.
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skyrider
Kinda like.........."the secrecy of his (geer's) success is the secrecy of his (geer's) moves."
Wowsers!!!
The guy sure can wheel and deal.
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excathedra
dear whitedove thank you for the great laugh tonight
love,ex
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jardinero
I can corroborate what Dove said. I was involved in the early days of the Geer tapes, classes, licensing. My ex and I also looked into the license and came to the same conclusion as Dove. We opted to provide original teachings and not recycle others' classes, etc.
I was involved, as I said, with Geer groups in 4 different states. None of them made taking the classes a requirement. Nor did most require any allegience to CG. A few were more "wierwille worshippers" or CG "namedroppers" than others saying things like "Dr. this" and "Dr. said that" and would drop all their "interpretation according to someone's usage" stuff. Some kept in closer touch with CG than others and the "insiders" were very much into the same hierarchical "take the classes" bingo - - fill your card and you're better than everyone else cuz "I'VE HAD THE CLASS!!!!".
For the most part, the fellowships were very casual, and the people were very sincere. I just got over the worship of men stuff when I left the Catholic Church and didn't buy into it too much in twi, so I would get the creeps in the geer groups when that stuff would come up. And many of those guys really treat women like crap. Some of them have stepford wives still so the mentality towards strong, bright, educated women was typically that we were "rebellious" or "needed to learn our place". Yes, massah.
And I can vouch for Doug S. in Calif. on the family camps. You did not have to be in his group or any other offshoot group to attend any of the camps. They were just like a mini-ROA from the early days. Prett harmless and sweet. I've heard the same things about John Hill's camps.
J.
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excathedra
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WhiteDove
J your killing me here.....
She right of course and I've seen some of them recommend their jock mentality buddies who have no real life skills to unfortunate women looking for a good husband. Yea they are the worlds greatest salesman doing well until next week when it somehow didn't work out but the wife has a real job. Pathetic.......
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igotout
Geer's "nod from God" would more appropriately be qualified as a "trustee stab and power grab."
Ha, ha, ha, ha. Well stated Skyrider. Gawd, it is so obvious.
And the stories I could tell you about busboy when we were in the Corps, well before he ascended mount New Knoxville.
This picture is how I best remember driver boy (fisrst in the picture in front IN CONTROL of Dr & Mrs. It is sooooo figurative. And look at that biiiig smile.
Camp Gunnison 7th Corps Photo
It was all BUSINESS for scary Geery. Was he a nice guy? To some, Im sure. Oh, and excathedra could tell you MUCH more. But I am not sure it can be appropriately posted on this site.
Sadly, Geerites do not even realize that they are clones of TWI II. THey are so "exclusive" as Skyrider so well describes. They shun you.......very nicely..... if you are not in the household of believers. This also makes them dull and boring and missing out on much life has to offer. Some will stay in their little "spiritual club" till they die. Sounds so very much like TWI. What a way to live.
Not me! We wasted enough years in TWI, let alone in a clone of it.
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rascal
Amen! Who needs to be under that kind of control?
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Belle
And this is a godly organization, how? Why on earth would anyone in their right mind submit to this kind of control, secrecy and extortion?
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WhiteDove
I don't know Belle I've had some jobs over the years where disclosing your salary was grounds for dismissal I suppose that was control and secrecy also. The details of many corporate license agreements are not know ,it's business. I would guess that partly the reason would be to not add fuel to fire of his detractors and really if we aren't paying it ,it probably is none of our business. It's his material I say let him market it the way he wants if it is worth the price on the free market time will tell or in this case has told. You can ask whatever price you want for a service,i f you get iit may or may not happen. I think the price paid was too high for the product, some did not ,some did not but found out it was they just did not know it, some did and are happy. Works for me.......
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TOMMYZ
I'm not sure if you could call it fading or growing. I think that some groups have decided they no longer need Geer's classes.
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igotout
Of course not. Why give away part of your profits when you can run your own classes and tapes for 100% prophet. More MONEY.
Don't kid yourself....that is at the heart of a lot of it. Greenbacks!!
Some of these ministers are living large off the foundation which they got soley from TWI. Remember when it was common prcactice to "encourage" people NOT to send in their ABS to TWI? I do.
Tens of thousands a month flowed elsewhere of course. It is rumored that one ex-leader lives in a million dollar house. Others are living large.
Free country I suppose. That happens in BUSINESSES all the time. Some of them are just that. Not ministries.
As Skyrider pointed out.......show us your NEW, NEW, NEW people. Not rehashed ex-TWI former foillowers who can't let go. They are all getting old and boring and their children are getting up there too.
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skyrider
Yep, igotout.........follow the money trail. :)
No longer is the "geer label" needed to leverage the allegiance of many ex-wayfers into their folds. For surely, 18 years of association (for many) has rooted their convictions and friendships. And, unless geer is pumping new and exciting classes into the works........most, I would assume, have repeated the standard classes enough times.
It really comes down to business. Like WhiteDove stated, he "ran the numbers" when first looking at the geer contract and decided against it. Others....with a larger influence and/or area....signed on the line and have made a go of it.
To me.......it sounds like modern-day business activity, like a MLM.
Not quite the book of Acts in operation, IMO. Just re-packaging the pfal package with different colors and contents that stimulate academic exercises and elitism.
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WordWolf
..and, lest we forget,
this MLM comes complete with keeping expenses secret,
which is the OPPOSITE of nice, healthy non-profit organizations,
but is often found among conventional businesses-
organizations specifically structured to value MAKING MONEY
as opposed to SERVING GOD.
Which business model is a trustworthy one for CHRISTIANS?
You can answer that for your own consciences, but I have my answer.
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Keith
A one year licence to run his class used to be $1000 or 10% of the ABS, whichever was greater, and you could only run a class within x number of miles from your location. Our group looked into once and felt that his was too much control to suit us.
One of the other reasons why these groups might be letting their contracts lapse is because it has taken so long to get an Advanced Class. It is always, almost there, but not yet. There are two classes which are available from him to run that I would concider well worth the price. (The $1000, not the 10% of the ABS) He has two Orientialism class made from Bishop Poli's (I know that name is not spelled right) which are very good. In fact the second one is really great. But then you could take these classes and play them in almost any church without cause any real problems.
And Geer is not the first to licence the teaching of "word of God in this way. Many groups have classes that they licence to run. Sometimes they are free and sometimes not. Most of the licences do not cost much more than the cost of the material.
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excathedra
how would he know how much your ABS was ? would god tell him ? snort snort snort
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