Your buddy recieves materials and teachings from a guy who`s doctrine didn`t prevent him from being a viscious, psycho freak.
It is guilt by association, so yeah it is a pity....the well meaning guy is promoting evil.
And Judas betrayed Jesus so I suppose that it is guilt by association for all of the rest of the apostles and those that Judas taught if they agree with the truth he shared... thats a big brush Rascal you painted with. The fact remains that truth is truth and if the guy is sharing truth someones elses life does not attach accountability to him. Guilt by asociation? Gee that sounds like a Craig idea to me. Maybe your morphing way flashbacks into your thoughts again.
johniam, i feel sorry for anyone involved with psycho bus driver.
Why? He runs things differently than TWI and every spinoff I've seen. He's not trying to be the MOG. He has classes and stuff but he totally lets his leaders deal with their people the way they want. He gets prayed for a lot, but I've never met him. Back in early June I attended a weekend fellowship in Tennessee done by John Hill. Never heard CGs name mentioned once. It was all about the word.
i'm glad he totally "LETS" "HIS" "LEADERS" DEAL WITH "THEIR" people the way "THEY" want.
i don't think people belong to other people. i'm not trying to pick on you, honest.
anyway, i am way way way into NOT caring for geer, so i think i should bow out of the conversation
dmiller and mstar1, i've got a crazy idea. how about we try just responding to the question, huh?
yeah, i know. it's crazy.
sprawled, just because you start a thread doesn't mean you 'own' it... in other words, bite me.
mstar--your response indicates you understood the question well enough, you just had an issue with the word "flourishing." if we're gonna be straining at gnats here, let's at least be accurate: i wrote "apparently flourishing." so there really should be no issue, unless you want one.
it can be so like the way around here, it sucks.
yeah, it does... and YOU would be the one acting "like the way"... in other words, bite me.
I am going to jump in here, something I do infrequently, because John Hill's name was mentioned.
We live in Knoxville, so we don't go to the Nashville fellowship often. However, we have known John and Holly for over 9 yrs. They are very loving,kind, tender hearted people who are doing there best to bless God's people. They run a family advance every spring which is a real joy to go to. My husband and I taught at one of the meetings, and we were not asked to pre-share anything. In other words we were allowed to share the word that God put on our hearts.
John and Holly have been guests in our home many times, as we have in theirs, and it has been some of the finest heart-felt times I have had since I left after POP.
We are not neophytes, or for that matter easily swayed, having seen a lot since 1969.
Rascal, I am sorry you are still so bitter that you would lump every one into one category w/o knowing the person.
That is all I can say for now.This is not easy for me to do.
i LOVE john and was sorry to have to tell him i was leaving twi after geer's tape. john is one of the sweetest people i have ever met in my life. that's why i'm all the more sad.... i'm not saying he's bad or god will look down on him or what-have-you. i'm just saying i personally think geer is a piece of crap.
john if you ever come on here, i love you, you are amazing and one of the most loving people i've ever met in my life !
Priscilla....and in all fairness, you don`t know me either to make that *bitter* accusation....shrug.
No, I don`t know the guy, sounds like a real nice person, however....most of us WERE very good people in twi.....that is why evil was able to flourish. It had our pure hearts and wholesom characters to hide behind....
I don`t think that is a good thing no matter how *nice* we were...we lured people in to a snare in spite of our best intentions.
thinking about all the many, many splinter groups that are apparently flourishing all over the joint, i wondered if there's any way to know how many people are involved in them.
we talk about how twi's numbers have dwindled, but is there any way of knowing how many people are being impacted by various versions of twi doctrine through the offshoots?
from dmiller ---
Who cares???
from sprawled out ---
dmiller and mstar1, i've got a crazy idea. how about we try just responding to the question, huh?
yeah, i know. it's crazy.
Wayyyull, (scratching my head here) - in my own (crazy) way I was responding. I wanted to know who cared.
Because I don’t, but obviously many here do, or at least make themselves cognizant of the locations of the many splinters that came from the implosion of the trunk that used to be the way tree.
Before I sound too callous to folks by saying “I don’t care”, let me further add that I (now) believe that all should be able to pursue whatever path lays in front of that particular individual. And because of that – I don’t care how many folks are following offshoots, or not (as the case may be).
I’ll use CES/STFI as an example, since I like them, have been around them back from the days when they offered info only and way before they morphed into the full fledged church that they now are.
I remember the 1986 meeting (or was it in 1987?) in Chicago when CES wasn’t even CES, but all the key players were there. Big meeting room in a hotel somewhere there, with “unstrung folding chairs” set up. Couldn’t tell you how many were there, but there were a LOT OF FOLKS. They didn’t even have song books, nor did anyone want to sing. Everyone had questions and wanted to get out frustrations they had about twi. I know I did. Many went there expecting, (yet hoping there was no) *fellowship* as we had known it back at twi headquarters in NK, or as we used to know it in the branches and the twigs.
Long story short --- CES grew from meetings like that to an info only operation, then had fellowships (as folks from around the country felt “led” to start them in their homes), to an “Ambassador” program (I forget what they called it), to “Retreats” and “seminars”, and now they ordain clergy.
Not sure I like all the changes (these days), but that is a thumbnail sketch of them.
Where they once were, and where they are today. If any of the offshoots are “flourishing”, apparently they are. They have many affiliated fellowships in Europe, Africa, and the Philippines.
And (from what I know) – the folks that run the *local* fellowships do just that. THEY run them – the folks in Indianapolis Indiana don’t. ;)
Now – I told ya that, I’ll tell ya this ---
I've been to exactly TWO CES meetings, and one was the one in the mid-1980’s (before they had their name, and the other was one in 2004. I don’t run one at my house, there is none in my area, and though there are plenty back in Indiana in my home town – I prefer to visit Mom and Dad instead when I am in the area, and have yet to “avail myself of the fellowship” there, with the exception of that one time in 2004.
I support CES/STFI with a small cash donation (nowhere near a tithe) monthly, because I believe in what they are doing. I’ve given away more money to folks on the street looking for handouts, than I have to CES. I like what CES/STFI offer on their websites, but I couldn’t care less about the numbers “following” them.
So once again – I say: “Who cares???” I don’t. Never did, and never will.
And by the way -- sprawled out – thanks for the “crazy” suggestion you gave to Mstar and I. Made me think a bit deeper about what I meant when I posted that, and I appreciate it that you gave me the chance to do so.
tom strange--what's your problem? you really feel you needed to attack me for stating my opinion? why don't we just meet by the flagpole after school and settle it? wanna fight? huh? HUH?
Rascal I have no personal beef with you only with your philosophy it is evil just as it was years ago when Craig and Chris Geer for that matter did it to those who dared to listen and consider what John Lynn and Ralph and others had to say. Guilt by association no regard for the person ,who they are, what they do or teach, just guilty as charged a blanket sweep. By the way that led down the road to spiritual suspicion if you remember? You know -we don't even know if they are listening but we'll assume they are guilty anyway. It is an evil doctrine and yes I will speak out against it as I did. Speaking of doctrine I wonder how much time you have really invested in finding out the doctrine of those who you speak of , or are you assuming on somebody else's guess. Sorry I don't see guilt by association in the scriptures either, I see individual consideration of people for instance the woman caught in adultery now there would be a candidate for guilt by association if there ever were one. You might wanna check Jesus response.
He says forgive the for they know not what they do.
He says to forgive, he says none of Gods people are condemed , praise a mighty God.
Jesus did ask us to love one another He COMMNADED IT!
In the kingdom some may have some misery realizing we ALLL will have a life to live together.
with our personality , and OH NO!!! past sins and future sins.
hopefully we will learn how to have the King reign in a much more peaceful place and be able to truly love as He loves us.
i will say this about the off shoot they are defending the obligation to share the good news of the gospel to the best of their ability. God honors that and people are recieving eternal life because of their efforts!!!
do they sin ? have they sinned ? will they sin again?
yes we all have will and do. and guess what we are often wrong in how we think and do life. That is why we needed a SAviour.
At the end of the day i know God will honor those who attempted to help others worship HIM , more than those who taught hate and bitterness.
GOD`S response is very clear in Galatians... why not check that out rather than trying to misuse Jesus` instructions concerning an entirely different scenario to validate your preconcieved motions...
Get honest and address what God tells us is the responsibilty for men of the spirit verses Jesus` handeling of people before the new birth was available....instead of attacking me personally because you don`t like me pointing out what Galatians says.
tom strange--what's your problem? you really feel you needed to attack me for stating my opinion? why don't we just meet by the flagpole after school and settle it? wanna fight? huh? HUH?
nah... not really... why? do you feel the need to fight? (and I don't know if I'd call it an "attack for stating your opinion"... I think I'd call it "a bite me addressed to you for being a jerk to a couple of nice guys")
What does Jesus say?
He says forgive the for they know not what they do.
...but when he said that did he mean for it to be used over and over and over again? or did he just mean those guys he was talking about at that specific time?
My apologies. I, too, am very fond of John and Holly Hill. And I did not intend to “put them down” by my post, but can understand how it may have appeared that way. They have always been loving and kind and seem to be doing a great job with their fellowship. Know of many who attend their summer camps and really benefit from them.
My “sorrow” in discovering they were involved with Chris Geer stems from my dislike and distrust of Chris Geer. And the fact that a part of the teaching seemed off. After studying it more on my own, determined what it was, and can not agree with their point of view. But that’s okay with me. I feel no need to pressure others to accept my pov and have never felt pressured by them to accept their pov.
But I am thrilled to know that they are still actively involved with sharing and teaching God’s Word. Their teaching comes as much from their example as an outstanding Christian couple and parents, as it does from the words they speak. They are great people and I always enjoy seeing them and spending time with them.
Again, my apologies to all who read my post and saw it as derogatory towards these wonderful people.
Suda, Thanks for those kind words. I also haven't always agreed with what has been taught in my 30 odd(!) years of studying the Bible. All I know is the fruit I have seen in the Hills, and also in their children. We all are human, and will all make mistakes. I know I have made a few in life. One thing I do know is that God is loving, kind and fair, so I'll let him judge. Meanwhile I will try to be the best for Him and look to the Word for truth.
As far as the topic, as someone said,(was it dmiller?), who cares? I just want to be in the book of Life. That's what counts to me!
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sprawled out
gee, now i understand, tom. i didn't realize you were nobly defending a couple of nice guys. i thought you were just being an a**hole. thanks for clearing that up.
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WhiteDove
And Judas betrayed Jesus so I suppose that it is guilt by association for all of the rest of the apostles and those that Judas taught if they agree with the truth he shared... thats a big brush Rascal you painted with. The fact remains that truth is truth and if the guy is sharing truth someones elses life does not attach accountability to him. Guilt by asociation? Gee that sounds like a Craig idea to me. Maybe your morphing way flashbacks into your thoughts again.
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excathedra
i don't think people belong to other people. i'm not trying to pick on you, honest.
anyway, i am way way way into NOT caring for geer, so i think i should bow out of the conversation
peace
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Tom Strange
sprawled, just because you start a thread doesn't mean you 'own' it... in other words, bite me.
yeah, it does... and YOU would be the one acting "like the way"... in other words, bite me.
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excathedra
hey bite my snowcone ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha
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rascal
That made absolutely no sense dove. I think that it is silly to attack me personally by makeing a goofey comparison to lcm...lol
Geer is a psycho, his dogma was compiled by a psycho, it didn`t help either men stop from being psychotic predators.....
Darn right, by participation one lends their credibilty and honor to those who are evil...covering their true nature....shrug
Guilt by association in my book.
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Priscilla
I am going to jump in here, something I do infrequently, because John Hill's name was mentioned.
We live in Knoxville, so we don't go to the Nashville fellowship often. However, we have known John and Holly for over 9 yrs. They are very loving,kind, tender hearted people who are doing there best to bless God's people. They run a family advance every spring which is a real joy to go to. My husband and I taught at one of the meetings, and we were not asked to pre-share anything. In other words we were allowed to share the word that God put on our hearts.
John and Holly have been guests in our home many times, as we have in theirs, and it has been some of the finest heart-felt times I have had since I left after POP.
We are not neophytes, or for that matter easily swayed, having seen a lot since 1969.
Rascal, I am sorry you are still so bitter that you would lump every one into one category w/o knowing the person.
That is all I can say for now.This is not easy for me to do.
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excathedra
i LOVE john and was sorry to have to tell him i was leaving twi after geer's tape. john is one of the sweetest people i have ever met in my life. that's why i'm all the more sad.... i'm not saying he's bad or god will look down on him or what-have-you. i'm just saying i personally think geer is a piece of crap.
john if you ever come on here, i love you, you are amazing and one of the most loving people i've ever met in my life !
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rascal
Priscilla....and in all fairness, you don`t know me either to make that *bitter* accusation....shrug.
No, I don`t know the guy, sounds like a real nice person, however....most of us WERE very good people in twi.....that is why evil was able to flourish. It had our pure hearts and wholesom characters to hide behind....
I don`t think that is a good thing no matter how *nice* we were...we lured people in to a snare in spite of our best intentions.
I don`t see that as a good thing then or now.
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johniam
Rascal you are a one trick pony; you have nothing new to say.
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dmiller
Wayyyull, (scratching my head here) - in my own (crazy) way I was responding. I wanted to know who cared.
Because I don’t, but obviously many here do, or at least make themselves cognizant of the locations of the many splinters that came from the implosion of the trunk that used to be the way tree.
Before I sound too callous to folks by saying “I don’t care”, let me further add that I (now) believe that all should be able to pursue whatever path lays in front of that particular individual. And because of that – I don’t care how many folks are following offshoots, or not (as the case may be).
I’ll use CES/STFI as an example, since I like them, have been around them back from the days when they offered info only and way before they morphed into the full fledged church that they now are.
I remember the 1986 meeting (or was it in 1987?) in Chicago when CES wasn’t even CES, but all the key players were there. Big meeting room in a hotel somewhere there, with “unstrung folding chairs” set up.
Couldn’t tell you how many were there, but there were a LOT OF FOLKS. They didn’t even have song books, nor did anyone want to sing. Everyone had questions and wanted to get out frustrations they had about twi. I know I did. Many went there expecting, (yet hoping there was no) *fellowship* as we had known it back at twi headquarters in NK, or as we used to know it in the branches and the twigs.
Long story short --- CES grew from meetings like that to an info only operation, then had fellowships (as folks from around the country felt “led” to start them in their homes), to an “Ambassador” program (I forget what they called it), to “Retreats” and “seminars”, and now they ordain clergy.
Not sure I like all the changes (these days), but that is a thumbnail sketch of them.
Where they once were, and where they are today. If any of the offshoots are “flourishing”, apparently they are. They have many affiliated fellowships in Europe, Africa, and the Philippines.
And (from what I know) – the folks that run the *local* fellowships do just that. THEY run them – the folks in Indianapolis Indiana don’t. ;)
Now – I told ya that, I’ll tell ya this ---
I've been to exactly TWO CES meetings, and one was the one in the mid-1980’s (before they had their name, and the other was one in 2004. I don’t run one at my house, there is none in my area, and though there are plenty back in Indiana in my home town – I prefer to visit Mom and Dad instead when I am in the area, and have yet to “avail myself of the fellowship” there, with the exception of that one time in 2004.
I support CES/STFI with a small cash donation (nowhere near a tithe) monthly, because I believe in what they are doing. I’ve given away more money to folks on the street looking for handouts, than I have to CES. I like what CES/STFI offer on their websites, but I couldn’t care less about the numbers “following” them.
So once again – I say: “Who cares???” I don’t. Never did, and never will.
And by the way -- sprawled out – thanks for the “crazy” suggestion you gave to Mstar and I. Made me think a bit deeper about what I meant when I posted that, and I appreciate it that you gave me the chance to do so.
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johniam
I don't know for sure, but I bet there are more people involved with Chris Geer, CES, and CFF each than there are still with TWI.
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Twinky
Not to mention those who hang out in the Grease Spot Cafe, which is a very special sort of splinter group. One with a sharp point.
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rascal
Well then John, I recomend you put me on ignore or skip my posts so that I don`t bore you any further :)
Amen Twinky!
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sprawled out
dmiller--you're welcome. :D
tom strange--what's your problem? you really feel you needed to attack me for stating my opinion? why don't we just meet by the flagpole after school and settle it? wanna fight? huh? HUH?
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WhiteDove
Rascal I have no personal beef with you only with your philosophy it is evil just as it was years ago when Craig and Chris Geer for that matter did it to those who dared to listen and consider what John Lynn and Ralph and others had to say. Guilt by association no regard for the person ,who they are, what they do or teach, just guilty as charged a blanket sweep. By the way that led down the road to spiritual suspicion if you remember? You know -we don't even know if they are listening but we'll assume they are guilty anyway. It is an evil doctrine and yes I will speak out against it as I did. Speaking of doctrine I wonder how much time you have really invested in finding out the doctrine of those who you speak of , or are you assuming on somebody else's guess. Sorry I don't see guilt by association in the scriptures either, I see individual consideration of people for instance the woman caught in adultery now there would be a candidate for guilt by association if there ever were one. You might wanna check Jesus response.
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pond
What does Jesus say?
He says forgive the for they know not what they do.
He says to forgive, he says none of Gods people are condemed , praise a mighty God.
Jesus did ask us to love one another He COMMNADED IT!
In the kingdom some may have some misery realizing we ALLL will have a life to live together.
with our personality , and OH NO!!! past sins and future sins.
hopefully we will learn how to have the King reign in a much more peaceful place and be able to truly love as He loves us.
i will say this about the off shoot they are defending the obligation to share the good news of the gospel to the best of their ability. God honors that and people are recieving eternal life because of their efforts!!!
do they sin ? have they sinned ? will they sin again?
yes we all have will and do. and guess what we are often wrong in how we think and do life. That is why we needed a SAviour.
At the end of the day i know God will honor those who attempted to help others worship HIM , more than those who taught hate and bitterness.
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rascal
GOD`S response is very clear in Galatians... why not check that out rather than trying to misuse Jesus` instructions concerning an entirely different scenario to validate your preconcieved motions...
Get honest and address what God tells us is the responsibilty for men of the spirit verses Jesus` handeling of people before the new birth was available....instead of attacking me personally because you don`t like me pointing out what Galatians says.
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Tom Strange
nah... not really... why? do you feel the need to fight? (and I don't know if I'd call it an "attack for stating your opinion"... I think I'd call it "a bite me addressed to you for being a jerk to a couple of nice guys")
...but when he said that did he mean for it to be used over and over and over again? or did he just mean those guys he was talking about at that specific time?
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pond
tom
I believe he meant mankind for whom he was suffering for .
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sprawled out
gee, now i understand, tom. i didn't realize you were nobly defending a couple of nice guys. i thought you were just being an a**hole.
thanks for clearing that up.
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Suda
johniam and Priscilla,
My apologies. I, too, am very fond of John and Holly Hill. And I did not intend to “put them down” by my post, but can understand how it may have appeared that way. They have always been loving and kind and seem to be doing a great job with their fellowship. Know of many who attend their summer camps and really benefit from them.
My “sorrow” in discovering they were involved with Chris Geer stems from my dislike and distrust of Chris Geer. And the fact that a part of the teaching seemed off. After studying it more on my own, determined what it was, and can not agree with their point of view. But that’s okay with me. I feel no need to pressure others to accept my pov and have never felt pressured by them to accept their pov.
But I am thrilled to know that they are still actively involved with sharing and teaching God’s Word. Their teaching comes as much from their example as an outstanding Christian couple and parents, as it does from the words they speak. They are great people and I always enjoy seeing them and spending time with them.
Again, my apologies to all who read my post and saw it as derogatory towards these wonderful people.
Suda
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Priscilla
Suda, Thanks for those kind words. I also haven't always agreed with what has been taught in my 30 odd(!) years of studying the Bible. All I know is the fruit I have seen in the Hills, and also in their children. We all are human, and will all make mistakes. I know I have made a few in life. One thing I do know is that God is loving, kind and fair, so I'll let him judge. Meanwhile I will try to be the best for Him and look to the Word for truth.
As far as the topic, as someone said,(was it dmiller?), who cares? I just want to be in the book of Life. That's what counts to me!
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Tom Strange
well... takes one to know one!!! (sorry, couldn't resist)
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dmiller
Sprawled out -- I try to be nice to everyone I meet here.
Tom Strange does the same (given the chance.)
Now -- if you were to do the same, you might find the dialouge yer looking for. :)
(To my own detriment -- I have found that ignoring ego (mine) -- does wonders on this site!!)
Am not saying you're wrong, or someone else is right,
I'm just stating a fact. :)
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