I think that these stories are more than just siblings and their relationships - although I think you're on to something here, Abi.
Think about the dysfunctional families that there are in the Bible: two parents each have a favorite twin and encourage the sybling rivalry - just one example.
Exactly Dooj. There are many layers and lessons to the stories no doubt. This is just one layer that has peaked my interest of late.
Likewise, the lying and the cheating, even by "men of God". It is fascinating.
Do you have kids? More than one? Do you find you feel closer to one than another? If you do, do you think your kids pick up on it? How would that effect them and their relationship with each other?
Can these stories be used to teach them about their relationship with each other? Show them that perhaps it is natural for some jealousy and even intense dislike to exist between them sometimes and also show them that despite those things they can love each other? Or they can chose to do as Cain did?
Look at Rachel and Leah, competing not only for their husband's love, but love from their father as well! So when we talk today of dysfunctional families, are they truly dysfunctional or are they normal and the Brady Bunch is the dysfunctional family? lol
One way to look at these stories is to work backward. At the time that these books were written, the alleged descendents of the rival siblings in question were whole nations who were rivals on the national or tribal level. Thus the problems with Edom and Ishmael were explained in terms of the founders of thse nations being brothers to two key figures in Hebrew history. Moab and Ammon were described as descended from the illicit relationship the cousin of Issac and his daughters.
There was an exchange between David and one of his older brothers not long before David killed Goliath. All Israel was afraid of Goliath and David got close enough to hear his blasphemies and the older brother said something like "I know thy naughty mind!" Classic.
Abi - I have two girls. At TIMES I prefer one to the other - but that has more to do with whether one has ticked me off that day. (LOL)
Actually, I can say that I don't have a favorite child. I have seen this tho, and it can be devastating.
I have used the stories of families in the old testament to help my girls understand how siblings can truly hurt each other, how jealousy can tear a family apart, and finally, how to forgive a sibling.
and now when i look at it I think she probably should. My ister tells people what they want to hear, my mom ONLY wants to hear what she wants.
It has hurt me BUT now i am a self and well i leave them alone ya know we all do the best we can and should learn to love our own selfs enough to be able to love one another.
In my own family one child thinks I like another over her, and in a honest sense I do, she is more honest with me, she doesnt judge or be critical or play games with my head. frankly she isnt a bitch.
so either get honest and admit relationships with our family are just that things we work on and try to have be nice , but no one can change another and it can be complicated.
i have a son who has done some very "bad: things.... and the polly anna daughter would NEVER but he is honest with me and i trust him... her not so much.
it is what it is.
Im talking about grown ups now.
As kids I think kids are kids and we should be wondrful to them all the same.
Oakspear, I like that view of it also. It adds an interesting element to the conversation. Cain and Abel as two nations, God (as the parent) seems to favor one, why? I'll have to dig my Talmud out in a bit, if I can find time.
Johniam, my two kids have their share of sibling rivalry too. The boys are fairly close in age, so at times they are pals and at times they can't stand each other - which is what peaked my interest in this topic.
Pond, I always felt like I was "daddy's girl" growing up. Though as an adult I am not sure he feels the same way - that's okay though. As a child it was a double edged sword. My brother and sister resented me for it and often did not want to include me in their activities. On the other had, my mom rarely had the time of day for me and I think knowing I was special to my dad went a long way in compensating for that.
Dooj, I hear what you are saying about playing favorites with kids, and how at times you might like one better than the other. I love both of my kids equally and yet differently because they are different people. However, there is no doubt that my younger son is usually more pleasant company. I really have to work hard at my relationship with my older son, he is a very high demand and difficult child. Sometimes I feel guilty for finding my younger son easier to be around. Sometimes I worry that I work so hard at having a good relationship with my older son, that my younger son feels left out.
Okay, gonna stir the chili and grab my Bible and see what I can find scripturally.
Cain and Abel - why did God find favor with Abel's offerring or as the "Tanakh - New Translation According to Traditional Hebrew Text" words it "The Lord paid heed to Abel and his offering, but to Cain and his offering He paid no heed."
Well, it says that "Cain brought an offering to the Lord from the fuit of the soil; and Abel, for his part, brought the choicest of the firstlings of his flock."
Hebrew law, which certainly had not been given by Moses at this time but nonetheless may still have been known, requires an offering to be made of the best, choicest parts. It seems Abel did this and Cain did not.
I see the lesson to parents as being that we should "pay heed" or acknowledge what our children do for us, even if it isn't the "choicest offering".
How can we look at it in a bigger frame, such as the one Oakspear mentioned? Two nations, making offerings - one offering is better than the other.
I have heard one theory that for Cain to have given fruit would be like a modern day Jew to make a sacrifice of a pig. NOw, I'm not a believer in this theory - but I thought I'd throw it in the mix.
The reasoning is that God commanded Adam to eat of the herbs and seeds - NOT the fruit. Fruit is just an indicator of the seed and the plant.
So - roots are out (IE< carrots, potatoes, beets etc.) Tomatoes and cherries are out.
In this man's eyes - and I should note that he is a Christian with Jewish roots from Spain, and a doctor that prescribes this diet to those with hight blood sugar and high blood pressure) only leafy vegetables and seeds are eaten. He has all the logic - perhaps someone else out there knows this stuff.
Anyway, the point is that according to this theory, Cain's sacrifice was wrong at it's core. He never should have sacrificed any kind of fruit.
I think that the word "fruit" is being interpreted too literally here - any Hebrew scholars out there?
I am interested in this too. It says of Cain that "in process of time it came to pass" that Cain made his offering. Contrast that to Abel bringing of the firstlings, the BEST, of his flock. Sounds to me like Cain did a half hearted effort when he prepared his offering while Abel gave it his best effort.
Come to think of it, Cain was the elder of the two. He probably got first choice of jobs. He may have wanted to be a tiller of the ground rather than a keeper of sheep just to avoid the fecal clean up if for no other reason. And after God did not respect his offering it doesn't say God never would have given him another chance. Other things about that chapter I wonder about, but all for now.
A. J. Fecko wrote a piece on animal sacrifice and this is what he wrote about Cain and Able:
Others have assumed that animal sacrifices began with Abel. Bible translations typically say that Abel offered the "fat" of his sheep. According to the Documentary Hypothesis the Torah was composed by a number of authors. Many Biblical scholars believe that the account of Abel performing an animal sacrifice is a contradiction between the Yahwist and Priestly authors. It's been said that the account of man being created a vegetarian and only given permission to eat flesh was a view held by the author of the Priestly account called "P", while the author of the Yahwist account called "J" portrays man as a flesh eater at least by the time of Abel since he offers an animal sacrifice.
Other writers, whether accepting or rejecting the Documentary Hypothesis, point out that there is no disagreement here since Abel could have performed animal sacrifices, though he himself ate no flesh. Very often it's been held that one of the main points of this account is that God requires blood for expiation of sins. However, there is no reference in the account of Cain and Abel that the purpose of the offerings was to expiate sin. More importantly, there's no reference to Abel offering blood; just a seeming reference to "fat". If a major point in this account is the importance of blood for the forgiveness of sins, wouldn't it make more sense that the blood would be mentioned instead of the fat?
However, some early Christians such as the Montanists apparently thought Abel offered the dairy products of his flock:
In the second century the African Montanists were sometimes called the "Artotyrites" because they added cheese, instead of wine, to the bread in the Eucharist on the ground that the Aquarii, and first men offered the fruits both of the earth and of their flocks (Gen. iv. 3, 4). http://www.wpl.lib.oh.us/AntiSaloon/print/wine.html
Josephus says Abel offered milk:
They had resolved to sacrifice to God. Now Cain brought the fruits of the earth, and of his husbandry; but Abel brought milk, and the first-fruits of his flocks: but God was more delighted with the latter oblation,
There's even some memory of the tradition that Abel offered milk in the mideaval Golden Legend of Jacobus de Voragine.
The Hebrew of the Old Testament was originally without vowels. The vowel marks were added at a later time. The particular word render "fat" in the account of Cain and Abel (there are a number of different Hebrew words that mean "fat") is spelled the same as the word for milk and curds. Only the vowels are different. The present Hebrew vowel system didn't come into use until about the ninth or tenth century AD. In fact, it seems likely that when Genesis was written that there was no difference between khay'-leb and kheh'-leb (both of which are spelled cheth - lamed - beth). Both clearly evolved from the same word, and Genesis being one of the oldest Hebrew works, it may be that there was no difference in pronunciation at that time.
One way the passage on Cain and Abel may be rendered is:
And she gives birth to his brother, even Abel. And Abel is feeding a flock, and Cain was a worker of the earth. And it comes to pass at the end of the season that Cain brings from the fruit of the earth a present to the Lord; and Abel, he has brought, he also, from the female firstlings of his flock, namely from their milk (or possibly curds or milkings); and the Lord looks unto Abel and unto his present. Gen. 4:2-4
The Hebrew word rendered "and" in many translations here most likely means "namely" (This is an example of "hendiadys"). The Septuagint, in the form that it's come down to us, has it that Abel offered from his "fat ones". The point being that Abel offered from his best, while Cain from the worst part of his crop. This is especially clear since we also read in the Septuagint that the Lord said
"Hast thou not sinned if thou hast brought it rightly, but not rightly divided it? be still, to thee shall be his submission, and thou shalt rule over him." Gen. 4:7 LXX.
It may, indeed, be true that Cain offered the most defective portion of his harvest, however, the Hebrew author here seems to be emphasizing a different point. It's the fact that Abel's offering was the product of the firstborn of his flock, whereas Cain's came "at the end of days", that is, at the "end of the season" that Abel's offering is preferred. Not only the firstborn, but the first-fruits are treated as sacred in the Old Testament. Because there was a sign of God's favor on Abel's offering of his dairy products, Cain was jealous and killed Abel. Here God gives the first commandment regarding a murder
"Whoever kills Cain will suffer a sevenfold vengeance." Gen 4:15 NRSV.
Wow there is some great information! I would like to respond more in depth when I have time but I will toss in a couple of comments for now.
Dooj I think you bring up a great point about Cain's sacrifice and how much of a sacrifice it truly was. A point which both Johniam and Vegan added much to - so thanks for bringing it up!!!!
Vegan, I have read some about the debates and opinions of P and J, they are very interesting and had no small effect on Judaism. Likewise, you are correct about the vowels and not only that, but the vowels that do exist, even today, are basically the consenants with some added "dots" to indicate what vowel it is - and even there, there are disagreements as to the exact placement of the dots.
However, I think the bigger issue for this isn't whether or not the offerings were "seeds", "fruits", "milk" or "fat" (though that is an interesting topic in and of itself); but as JohnIAm pointed out, what was the heart and motive behind the offerings. If Abel gave of the first fruits and Cain gave of the "last fruits" - that does say something about motive and heart, no?
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Raf
Yeah. My brother's a twit.
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doojable
I think that these stories are more than just siblings and their relationships - although I think you're on to something here, Abi.
Think about the dysfunctional families that there are in the Bible: two parents each have a favorite twin and encourage the sybling rivalry - just one example.
Lying, deceit, cheating - man we got it all!
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Abigail
Exactly Dooj. There are many layers and lessons to the stories no doubt. This is just one layer that has peaked my interest of late.
Likewise, the lying and the cheating, even by "men of God". It is fascinating.
Do you have kids? More than one? Do you find you feel closer to one than another? If you do, do you think your kids pick up on it? How would that effect them and their relationship with each other?
Can these stories be used to teach them about their relationship with each other? Show them that perhaps it is natural for some jealousy and even intense dislike to exist between them sometimes and also show them that despite those things they can love each other? Or they can chose to do as Cain did?
Look at Rachel and Leah, competing not only for their husband's love, but love from their father as well! So when we talk today of dysfunctional families, are they truly dysfunctional or are they normal and the Brady Bunch is the dysfunctional family? lol
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Oakspear
One way to look at these stories is to work backward. At the time that these books were written, the alleged descendents of the rival siblings in question were whole nations who were rivals on the national or tribal level. Thus the problems with Edom and Ishmael were explained in terms of the founders of thse nations being brothers to two key figures in Hebrew history. Moab and Ammon were described as descended from the illicit relationship the cousin of Issac and his daughters.
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johniam
Mom liked you best!!!!
There was an exchange between David and one of his older brothers not long before David killed Goliath. All Israel was afraid of Goliath and David got close enough to hear his blasphemies and the older brother said something like "I know thy naughty mind!" Classic.
My 2 sons have the sibling rivalry thing going.
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pond
joseph got into it with his brothers. forgave them tho
i also think it teaches us to rely on God instead of our blood line.
learned that a few times myself .
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doojable
Abi - I have two girls. At TIMES I prefer one to the other - but that has more to do with whether one has ticked me off that day. (LOL)
Actually, I can say that I don't have a favorite child. I have seen this tho, and it can be devastating.
I have used the stories of families in the old testament to help my girls understand how siblings can truly hurt each other, how jealousy can tear a family apart, and finally, how to forgive a sibling.
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pond
my mom does love my sister better.
and now when i look at it I think she probably should. My ister tells people what they want to hear, my mom ONLY wants to hear what she wants.
It has hurt me BUT now i am a self and well i leave them alone ya know we all do the best we can and should learn to love our own selfs enough to be able to love one another.
In my own family one child thinks I like another over her, and in a honest sense I do, she is more honest with me, she doesnt judge or be critical or play games with my head. frankly she isnt a bitch.
so either get honest and admit relationships with our family are just that things we work on and try to have be nice , but no one can change another and it can be complicated.
i have a son who has done some very "bad: things.... and the polly anna daughter would NEVER but he is honest with me and i trust him... her not so much.
it is what it is.
Im talking about grown ups now.
As kids I think kids are kids and we should be wondrful to them all the same.
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Abigail
Oakspear, I like that view of it also. It adds an interesting element to the conversation. Cain and Abel as two nations, God (as the parent) seems to favor one, why? I'll have to dig my Talmud out in a bit, if I can find time.
Johniam, my two kids have their share of sibling rivalry too. The boys are fairly close in age, so at times they are pals and at times they can't stand each other - which is what peaked my interest in this topic.
Pond, I always felt like I was "daddy's girl" growing up. Though as an adult I am not sure he feels the same way - that's okay though. As a child it was a double edged sword. My brother and sister resented me for it and often did not want to include me in their activities. On the other had, my mom rarely had the time of day for me and I think knowing I was special to my dad went a long way in compensating for that.
Dooj, I hear what you are saying about playing favorites with kids, and how at times you might like one better than the other. I love both of my kids equally and yet differently because they are different people. However, there is no doubt that my younger son is usually more pleasant company. I really have to work hard at my relationship with my older son, he is a very high demand and difficult child. Sometimes I feel guilty for finding my younger son easier to be around. Sometimes I worry that I work so hard at having a good relationship with my older son, that my younger son feels left out.
Okay, gonna stir the chili and grab my Bible and see what I can find scripturally.
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Abigail
Cain and Abel - why did God find favor with Abel's offerring or as the "Tanakh - New Translation According to Traditional Hebrew Text" words it "The Lord paid heed to Abel and his offering, but to Cain and his offering He paid no heed."
Well, it says that "Cain brought an offering to the Lord from the fuit of the soil; and Abel, for his part, brought the choicest of the firstlings of his flock."
Hebrew law, which certainly had not been given by Moses at this time but nonetheless may still have been known, requires an offering to be made of the best, choicest parts. It seems Abel did this and Cain did not.
I see the lesson to parents as being that we should "pay heed" or acknowledge what our children do for us, even if it isn't the "choicest offering".
How can we look at it in a bigger frame, such as the one Oakspear mentioned? Two nations, making offerings - one offering is better than the other.
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coolchef
i have 4 sons that i love dearly
nobody said it would be easy!!
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doojable
I have heard one theory that for Cain to have given fruit would be like a modern day Jew to make a sacrifice of a pig. NOw, I'm not a believer in this theory - but I thought I'd throw it in the mix.
The reasoning is that God commanded Adam to eat of the herbs and seeds - NOT the fruit. Fruit is just an indicator of the seed and the plant.
So - roots are out (IE< carrots, potatoes, beets etc.) Tomatoes and cherries are out.
In this man's eyes - and I should note that he is a Christian with Jewish roots from Spain, and a doctor that prescribes this diet to those with hight blood sugar and high blood pressure) only leafy vegetables and seeds are eaten. He has all the logic - perhaps someone else out there knows this stuff.
Anyway, the point is that according to this theory, Cain's sacrifice was wrong at it's core. He never should have sacrificed any kind of fruit.
I think that the word "fruit" is being interpreted too literally here - any Hebrew scholars out there?
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johniam
I am interested in this too. It says of Cain that "in process of time it came to pass" that Cain made his offering. Contrast that to Abel bringing of the firstlings, the BEST, of his flock. Sounds to me like Cain did a half hearted effort when he prepared his offering while Abel gave it his best effort.
Come to think of it, Cain was the elder of the two. He probably got first choice of jobs. He may have wanted to be a tiller of the ground rather than a keeper of sheep just to avoid the fecal clean up if for no other reason. And after God did not respect his offering it doesn't say God never would have given him another chance. Other things about that chapter I wonder about, but all for now.
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VeganXTC
A. J. Fecko wrote a piece on animal sacrifice and this is what he wrote about Cain and Able:
Others have assumed that animal sacrifices began with Abel. Bible translations typically say that Abel offered the "fat" of his sheep. According to the Documentary Hypothesis the Torah was composed by a number of authors. Many Biblical scholars believe that the account of Abel performing an animal sacrifice is a contradiction between the Yahwist and Priestly authors. It's been said that the account of man being created a vegetarian and only given permission to eat flesh was a view held by the author of the Priestly account called "P", while the author of the Yahwist account called "J" portrays man as a flesh eater at least by the time of Abel since he offers an animal sacrifice.
Other writers, whether accepting or rejecting the Documentary Hypothesis, point out that there is no disagreement here since Abel could have performed animal sacrifices, though he himself ate no flesh. Very often it's been held that one of the main points of this account is that God requires blood for expiation of sins. However, there is no reference in the account of Cain and Abel that the purpose of the offerings was to expiate sin. More importantly, there's no reference to Abel offering blood; just a seeming reference to "fat". If a major point in this account is the importance of blood for the forgiveness of sins, wouldn't it make more sense that the blood would be mentioned instead of the fat?
However, some early Christians such as the Montanists apparently thought Abel offered the dairy products of his flock:
In the second century the African Montanists were sometimes called the "Artotyrites" because they added cheese, instead of wine, to the bread in the Eucharist on the ground that the Aquarii, and first men offered the fruits both of the earth and of their flocks (Gen. iv. 3, 4). http://www.wpl.lib.oh.us/AntiSaloon/print/wine.html
Josephus says Abel offered milk:
They had resolved to sacrifice to God. Now Cain brought the fruits of the earth, and of his husbandry; but Abel brought milk, and the first-fruits of his flocks: but God was more delighted with the latter oblation,
http://www.interhack.net/projects/library/...-jews/b1c2.html
There's even some memory of the tradition that Abel offered milk in the mideaval Golden Legend of Jacobus de Voragine.
The Hebrew of the Old Testament was originally without vowels. The vowel marks were added at a later time. The particular word render "fat" in the account of Cain and Abel (there are a number of different Hebrew words that mean "fat") is spelled the same as the word for milk and curds. Only the vowels are different. The present Hebrew vowel system didn't come into use until about the ninth or tenth century AD. In fact, it seems likely that when Genesis was written that there was no difference between khay'-leb and kheh'-leb (both of which are spelled cheth - lamed - beth). Both clearly evolved from the same word, and Genesis being one of the oldest Hebrew works, it may be that there was no difference in pronunciation at that time.
One way the passage on Cain and Abel may be rendered is:
And she gives birth to his brother, even Abel. And Abel is feeding a flock, and Cain was a worker of the earth. And it comes to pass at the end of the season that Cain brings from the fruit of the earth a present to the Lord; and Abel, he has brought, he also, from the female firstlings of his flock, namely from their milk (or possibly curds or milkings); and the Lord looks unto Abel and unto his present. Gen. 4:2-4
The Hebrew word rendered "and" in many translations here most likely means "namely" (This is an example of "hendiadys"). The Septuagint, in the form that it's come down to us, has it that Abel offered from his "fat ones". The point being that Abel offered from his best, while Cain from the worst part of his crop. This is especially clear since we also read in the Septuagint that the Lord said
"Hast thou not sinned if thou hast brought it rightly, but not rightly divided it? be still, to thee shall be his submission, and thou shalt rule over him." Gen. 4:7 LXX.
It may, indeed, be true that Cain offered the most defective portion of his harvest, however, the Hebrew author here seems to be emphasizing a different point. It's the fact that Abel's offering was the product of the firstborn of his flock, whereas Cain's came "at the end of days", that is, at the "end of the season" that Abel's offering is preferred. Not only the firstborn, but the first-fruits are treated as sacred in the Old Testament. Because there was a sign of God's favor on Abel's offering of his dairy products, Cain was jealous and killed Abel. Here God gives the first commandment regarding a murder
"Whoever kills Cain will suffer a sevenfold vengeance." Gen 4:15 NRSV.
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Abigail
Wow there is some great information! I would like to respond more in depth when I have time but I will toss in a couple of comments for now.
Dooj I think you bring up a great point about Cain's sacrifice and how much of a sacrifice it truly was. A point which both Johniam and Vegan added much to - so thanks for bringing it up!!!!
Vegan, I have read some about the debates and opinions of P and J, they are very interesting and had no small effect on Judaism. Likewise, you are correct about the vowels and not only that, but the vowels that do exist, even today, are basically the consenants with some added "dots" to indicate what vowel it is - and even there, there are disagreements as to the exact placement of the dots.
However, I think the bigger issue for this isn't whether or not the offerings were "seeds", "fruits", "milk" or "fat" (though that is an interesting topic in and of itself); but as JohnIAm pointed out, what was the heart and motive behind the offerings. If Abel gave of the first fruits and Cain gave of the "last fruits" - that does say something about motive and heart, no?
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