Someone with an ounce of brains will take that the the Supreme Court - it smacks of violating innocent until proven guilty.
But from a PR and marketing standpoint it makes PERFECT sense for the Catholic church to promote and support it. They have been publically alleged for years and it doesn't affect the size of their congregation significantly. They effectively pay NO price while some poor schmoe who offends some 16 yr old is gonna his/her job.
Convicted child abusers/assaulters? Roast 'em (for real) on PBS and make it hurt and make it damned public - nothing wrong with a few thousand volts through the brain for that kind of horrible crime. However this law is even pre-conviction - and pre-charge - if this passes it will not be supported by ANY intelligent support WHATSOVER but by pure emotion and defiance of due process which is a constitutional guarantee. Only complete idiots, the COMPLETELY IGNORANT AND/OR ARROGANT (those who already know all), and the politcall a$$holes of Ohio will support this.
You sound like a jerk with your Ohio comment but I'll give you the benefit of the doubt.. maybe you aren't a jerk. Maybe you're just stupid and my momma taught me not to pick on those not able to defend themselves. This proposed law does nothing more than lower the evidentiary standard for sex offenders.
I'll try to explain this so that even you can understand. Presently, these registries contain only those convicted in a criminal court. The evidence in a criminal court is "beyond a reasonable doubt and to a moral certainty". That requires a lot of convincing evidence which is often hard to come by when the victim is a child. They are scared little kids and their testimony can be torn to shreds by a criminal defense attorney.
This proposed law would apply standards that operate in civil courts, that is, they could be considered sex offenders "by a preponderance of the evidence". That is... (am I using words that are too big for you?)... the likelihood that the person "did it" is greater than 50-50.... but not to a moral certainty. That is why OJ Simpson got civil damages against him in his second trial but got off on his first trial. The first one was in criminal court.. the second in civil.
Aw man, somebody got offended. I guess it's only OK to bash Ohio if it's TWI related.
Do not speak to me of ignorance. I know something about Ohio hickishness. I read the above article about putting people on a criminal watchlist based on a simple preponderance of evidence, vs beyond reasonable doubt. Ohio wishes to enact a Soviet style "Informer" system. The whole thing is worse than dumb. It's another tiny step in the wrong direction. (Ordering a guy to change his T-Shirt which had Arabic script on it before he was allowed on a plane in New York is another example)
You on the other hand know nothing about me other than my smiling (read slightly humorous - not too serious) response above. Sounds a lot like ignorance to me. However I'd like to help you. I'm from Texas. Now you are less ignorant about a man you chose to attact directly. Texans have done a lot of stupid things, but thankfully they haven't started with the "All suspects are guilty. Period. Otherwise they wouldn't be suspects would they?" approach your state government is considering.
You sound like a jerk with your Ohio comment but I'll guve you the benefit of the doubt.. maybe you aren't a jerk. Maybe you're just stupid and my momma taught me not to pick on those not able to defend themselves.
I'll try to expalin this so that even you can understand.
(am I using words that are too big for you?)...
<center>sudo</center>
Venomous Sudo.
Are you from Ohio too? I'm asking so I won't be so ignorant when navigating the "It's ok to bash Ohio about TWI, but Not anything else" river's headwaters where I've apparently lost my paddle.
SF Sailor--------"They open their mouths and dumb comes out"--------Were you using "they" to refer to the legislative branch of Ohio gvt.?-------You might find a few more people in your corner if that was your implication.-----See There! Diagramming a sentence CAN come in handy.( A little humour there for the older crowd)
SF Sailor--------"They open their mouths and dumb comes out"--------Were you using "they" to refer to the legislative branch of Ohio gvt.?-------You might find a few more people in your corner if that was your implication.-----See There! Diagramming a sentence CAN come in handy.( A little humour there for the older crowd)
Sentence diagramming Waysider? Now I know how old you are. Nice defuse though!!
Look I don't know why there is all this venom about SF's comment. I worked at LSU in Baton Rouge for 15 years. LSU is rated in the top 20 NSF research universities but there is no doubt that there are plenty of legislative "hicks" in LA. While I was there, anti-abortion legislation was passed. The governor a moderate (for LA) wanted to include exclusions for rape and incest. A LA senator publically said that it is "only rape the first time after that it is just sex" and also went through some inane and insane tirade about how thoroughbred horse breeding includes some incest and that incest might produce a "super smart child" Hick????? Sh(t yes!!!! Everyone in LA a hick - heck no. I had the privilege to work with some of the finest mesoscale coastal scientists in the world in LA but that senator was a hick. I don't think SF was declaring that Ohioans are hicks - but that law (yes I looked it up and read it) smacks of violation of due process and hence I agree that the legislators that support it are hicks - or worse they are self serving criminals.
Oh yeah - I lived in Cleveland for a while - and I don't think I am a hick SF - just a loud mouth - laffs.
RR ------You have to have a loud mouth in Cleveland just to be heard over the polka music and sound of pierogies frying. OH LORD! Now I've gone and ticked off the North Coasters! ------Cleveland Rocks!!
RR ------You have to have a loud mouth in Cleveland just to be heard over the polka music and sound of pierogies frying. OH LORD! Now I've gone and ticked off the North Coasters! ------Cleveland Rocks!!
I loved living on the east side - which is where you HAVE to be referring to. I nevr understood why Cleveland was called "The Mistake by The Lake" except for the 35mph curve on the 90 just before downtown. The rest of the east side was wonderful. Good art, music, theatre, great restaraunts - damned - well I won't qute leave San Diego to go back there but if I had to leave it would be on my list....
"Mistake by the lake"--------- Clevelanders definately know how to laugh at themselves.-----O.K. That and the fact that the Cuyahoga River became so polluted at one time that it actually caught fire and the flames consumed a bridge. WOW! that was about as far off topic as San Diego is from Cleveland.
Read back. I generally called people from Ohio dumb hicks. Much like the dumb hicks from Texas. A lot like the dumb hicks from Oklahoma. Different, but similar to the freakish fruits & nuts in California, and about the same as the stupid hicks from the California central valley.
In general, these things are true. If they don't apply to you, your family, and all your friends, I woudn't take it so personal. Afterall it's just a general statement about the stupidity of any large group that starts passing terrible laws.
Read back. You are the one who then made a very non-general targeted personal attack. Followed closely by Sudo's even meaner spirited very personal attacks. Imagine if you will, all of us sitting in a bar talking about this new law, and I said "Ohio hicks, dumb et cetera", while smiling and laughing. What would happen?
It's jockularity. (Big enough word for you Sudo?) I'm smiling, and if you're from Ohio then you will no doubt have a rejoinder. 99% of the time, it would be a fun, friendly, teasing response. Your responses here, very personal ones, would probably start a fight.
I've spent a lot of years staying in touch and making friends on the internet. I'm actually pretty shocked by the thin skin and general venom I've encountered in this thread. "Yo mamma" or some similar response, would have made me smile, and made you a friend (such as they are in cyber-space). But hey, enjoy your negative anger and hatred towards a stranger who never intended for you to take it so fscking personal.
I understand what you are saying. I can even see how the intent of the law is to protect children. Unfortunately, such a law would be far to easy to abuse, thus resulting in serious damage to someone's life.
Yes, it can be hard to prove such cases when your only witness is a child. Unfortunately, it NOT hard to falsify such a case when your only witness is a child.
Sorry sailor-dude, your initial post was NOT said in a joking manner, it was said in an insulting and demeaning way. And some of us who come from country roots are EVERY BIT as insulted by terms like hick and hillbilly when used in that way as a black person would be if you used the "N" word.
Had it been the first and only time it has been said on this board perhaps Rick and his friends (which include me btw) wouldn't have made the point to mention it. Nor would have Sudo.
It really is possible to just talk about something without putting someone down to do it.
Sorry sailor-dude, your initial post was NOT said in a joking manner...
It was really. That's why I put the smile on it. I also said my best friend is from Ohio. Man he goes on and on about Ohio. He's a brilliant computer programmer, but if you saw him walking down the street you would think it was a large farmboy. If you saw him with his asian wife you would probably think he's a one of the guys this law is after. She's 25 but looks about 16. I really think laws like this are a terrible idea. I've been out with my friend and his wife and he gets dirty looks from "decent white folk" all the time. His wife actually had people approach her to see if she needed "rescuing" in a restarant when he went to the head.
This kinda law scares me. (on topic)
As for insults, my friends and I always rag on other's home states and most anything else. I'm sorry everyone is so offended. I didn't mean it to be personal.
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RumRunner
Someone with an ounce of brains will take that the the Supreme Court - it smacks of violating innocent until proven guilty.
But from a PR and marketing standpoint it makes PERFECT sense for the Catholic church to promote and support it. They have been publically alleged for years and it doesn't affect the size of their congregation significantly. They effectively pay NO price while some poor schmoe who offends some 16 yr old is gonna his/her job.
Convicted child abusers/assaulters? Roast 'em (for real) on PBS and make it hurt and make it damned public - nothing wrong with a few thousand volts through the brain for that kind of horrible crime. However this law is even pre-conviction - and pre-charge - if this passes it will not be supported by ANY intelligent support WHATSOVER but by pure emotion and defiance of due process which is a constitutional guarantee. Only complete idiots, the COMPLETELY IGNORANT AND/OR ARROGANT (those who already know all), and the politcall a$$holes of Ohio will support this.
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SFSailor
The Ohio hicks are amazing. They open their mouths and dumb comes out.
My best friend is from Ohio and he talks much worse about them then I do. :)
SFSailor
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Bluzeman
SFSailor, you are really ignorant, aren't you?
Rick (Ohio "hick" and damn proud of it)
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ChattyKathy
I've just held my tongue thinking why bother.
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waysider
"Now kids, fight nice"---------one of my Mom's favorite directives.
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Kevlar2000
Seems to be a bad proposal with good intentions.
I think I see a road that needs paving. <_<
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ChattyKathy
There are holes in it, without question, but it isn't required to insult us in order to talk about this subject.
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Sushi
I guess I would like to read the actual law as passed before I form a final opinion, but as stated, it won't hold up.
***Posted by Abigail****
BTW, hi Bluz!!!!!! Long time no see!!!!!
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ChattyKathy
It dances around imposing on liberties, like other things have before, that will be its failing I suspect.
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Sudo
Sfsailor,
You sound like a jerk with your Ohio comment but I'll give you the benefit of the doubt.. maybe you aren't a jerk. Maybe you're just stupid and my momma taught me not to pick on those not able to defend themselves. This proposed law does nothing more than lower the evidentiary standard for sex offenders.
I'll try to explain this so that even you can understand. Presently, these registries contain only those convicted in a criminal court. The evidence in a criminal court is "beyond a reasonable doubt and to a moral certainty". That requires a lot of convincing evidence which is often hard to come by when the victim is a child. They are scared little kids and their testimony can be torn to shreds by a criminal defense attorney.
This proposed law would apply standards that operate in civil courts, that is, they could be considered sex offenders "by a preponderance of the evidence". That is... (am I using words that are too big for you?)... the likelihood that the person "did it" is greater than 50-50.... but not to a moral certainty. That is why OJ Simpson got civil damages against him in his second trial but got off on his first trial. The first one was in criminal court.. the second in civil.
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SFSailor
Aw man, somebody got offended. I guess it's only OK to bash Ohio if it's TWI related.
Do not speak to me of ignorance. I know something about Ohio hickishness. I read the above article about putting people on a criminal watchlist based on a simple preponderance of evidence, vs beyond reasonable doubt. Ohio wishes to enact a Soviet style "Informer" system. The whole thing is worse than dumb. It's another tiny step in the wrong direction. (Ordering a guy to change his T-Shirt which had Arabic script on it before he was allowed on a plane in New York is another example)
You on the other hand know nothing about me other than my smiling (read slightly humorous - not too serious) response above. Sounds a lot like ignorance to me. However I'd like to help you. I'm from Texas. Now you are less ignorant about a man you chose to attact directly. Texans have done a lot of stupid things, but thankfully they haven't started with the "All suspects are guilty. Period. Otherwise they wouldn't be suspects would they?" approach your state government is considering.
Have a wonderful day.
SFSailor
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SFSailor
Venomous Sudo.
Are you from Ohio too? I'm asking so I won't be so ignorant when navigating the "It's ok to bash Ohio about TWI, but Not anything else" river's headwaters where I've apparently lost my paddle.
SFSailor
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waysider
SF Sailor--------"They open their mouths and dumb comes out"--------Were you using "they" to refer to the legislative branch of Ohio gvt.?-------You might find a few more people in your corner if that was your implication.-----See There! Diagramming a sentence CAN come in handy.( A little humour there for the older crowd)
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Bluzeman
SFSailor, do you know what a jackass looks like? No? Look in the mirror.
Your comments about people in Ohio have insulted me, my entire family, and most of my friends.
I was going to call you an @sshole but that would be a step UP for you.
Rick
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RumRunner
Sentence diagramming Waysider? Now I know how old you are. Nice defuse though!!
Look I don't know why there is all this venom about SF's comment. I worked at LSU in Baton Rouge for 15 years. LSU is rated in the top 20 NSF research universities but there is no doubt that there are plenty of legislative "hicks" in LA. While I was there, anti-abortion legislation was passed. The governor a moderate (for LA) wanted to include exclusions for rape and incest. A LA senator publically said that it is "only rape the first time after that it is just sex" and also went through some inane and insane tirade about how thoroughbred horse breeding includes some incest and that incest might produce a "super smart child" Hick????? Sh(t yes!!!! Everyone in LA a hick - heck no. I had the privilege to work with some of the finest mesoscale coastal scientists in the world in LA but that senator was a hick. I don't think SF was declaring that Ohioans are hicks - but that law (yes I looked it up and read it) smacks of violation of due process and hence I agree that the legislators that support it are hicks - or worse they are self serving criminals.
Oh yeah - I lived in Cleveland for a while - and I don't think I am a hick SF - just a loud mouth - laffs.
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waysider
RR ------You have to have a loud mouth in Cleveland just to be heard over the polka music and sound of pierogies frying. OH LORD! Now I've gone and ticked off the North Coasters! ------Cleveland Rocks!!
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RumRunner
I loved living on the east side - which is where you HAVE to be referring to. I nevr understood why Cleveland was called "The Mistake by The Lake" except for the 35mph curve on the 90 just before downtown. The rest of the east side was wonderful. Good art, music, theatre, great restaraunts - damned - well I won't qute leave San Diego to go back there but if I had to leave it would be on my list....
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waysider
"Mistake by the lake"--------- Clevelanders definately know how to laugh at themselves.-----O.K. That and the fact that the Cuyahoga River became so polluted at one time that it actually caught fire and the flames consumed a bridge. WOW! that was about as far off topic as San Diego is from Cleveland.
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SFSailor
Bluzeman (Rick),
Read back. I generally called people from Ohio dumb hicks. Much like the dumb hicks from Texas. A lot like the dumb hicks from Oklahoma. Different, but similar to the freakish fruits & nuts in California, and about the same as the stupid hicks from the California central valley.
In general, these things are true. If they don't apply to you, your family, and all your friends, I woudn't take it so personal. Afterall it's just a general statement about the stupidity of any large group that starts passing terrible laws.
Read back. You are the one who then made a very non-general targeted personal attack. Followed closely by Sudo's even meaner spirited very personal attacks. Imagine if you will, all of us sitting in a bar talking about this new law, and I said "Ohio hicks, dumb et cetera", while smiling and laughing. What would happen?
It's jockularity. (Big enough word for you Sudo?) I'm smiling, and if you're from Ohio then you will no doubt have a rejoinder. 99% of the time, it would be a fun, friendly, teasing response. Your responses here, very personal ones, would probably start a fight.
I've spent a lot of years staying in touch and making friends on the internet. I'm actually pretty shocked by the thin skin and general venom I've encountered in this thread. "Yo mamma" or some similar response, would have made me smile, and made you a friend (such as they are in cyber-space). But hey, enjoy your negative anger and hatred towards a stranger who never intended for you to take it so fscking personal.
SFSailor
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Abigail
Sudo,
I understand what you are saying. I can even see how the intent of the law is to protect children. Unfortunately, such a law would be far to easy to abuse, thus resulting in serious damage to someone's life.
Yes, it can be hard to prove such cases when your only witness is a child. Unfortunately, it NOT hard to falsify such a case when your only witness is a child.
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Bluzeman
Sorry sailor-dude, your initial post was NOT said in a joking manner, it was said in an insulting and demeaning way. And some of us who come from country roots are EVERY BIT as insulted by terms like hick and hillbilly when used in that way as a black person would be if you used the "N" word.
Rick
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ChattyKathy
Had it been the first and only time it has been said on this board perhaps Rick and his friends (which include me btw) wouldn't have made the point to mention it. Nor would have Sudo.
It really is possible to just talk about something without putting someone down to do it.
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SFSailor
It was really. That's why I put the smile on it. I also said my best friend is from Ohio. Man he goes on and on about Ohio. He's a brilliant computer programmer, but if you saw him walking down the street you would think it was a large farmboy. If you saw him with his asian wife you would probably think he's a one of the guys this law is after. She's 25 but looks about 16. I really think laws like this are a terrible idea. I've been out with my friend and his wife and he gets dirty looks from "decent white folk" all the time. His wife actually had people approach her to see if she needed "rescuing" in a restarant when he went to the head.
This kinda law scares me. (on topic)
As for insults, my friends and I always rag on other's home states and most anything else. I'm sorry everyone is so offended. I didn't mean it to be personal.
SFSailor
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ChattyKathy
Thank you. And perhaps you understand why we might react as we do better. I hope you enjoy your time here.
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